General Exalted Discussion Thread VII: Playground Eternal Essence

[TheCountAlucard]

I can't help but notice that it doesn't say you must defeat him - more that UCS fails the challenge if he doesn't show up and defeat you before sundown.

As such, it only takes a sufficiently Chungian character to achieve the win condition.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Yeah, but again, there's absolutely nothing compelling him to even try to show up. Something that directly affects him like that is pretty obviously an attack, so it just bounces off his Temperance shield.

EDIT: And you can't hide from him anyway, because he auto-succeeds on opposed rolls by spending a point of WP.

[Turalisj]

Isn't he suppressing his Temperance so he can play the games?

[Mr.Bookworm]

Isn't he suppressing his Temperance so he can play the games?

He deliberately arranges things so that they don't come into conflict. If he was presented with direct evidence that he was slacking off, then yes, he would need to do that. It seems pretty clear that everything is kept off of his plate so he doesn't have to do that, though.

[Xefas]

Mr Bookworm, I consider you a fairly intelligent and chicanerous individual. I'm sure you could figure something out for a Solar to array advantages for himself in a conspiracy to defeat the Sun in single combat via this charm.

At the very least, whatever you came up with would be more interesting and constructive than just being a Negative Nancy.

[Lord Raziere]

I think having problems with attacking one of the most benevolent people in setting is a very reasonable time to be a negative nancy…..

[DeadManSleeping]

As much as I love the big lug, I would direct you to the fact that 99% of this forum's Exalted-playing population loves Infernals and thinks Sol Invictus perfectly sucks the big one.And by that I mean lollipop.

[Xefas]

As much as I love the big lug, I would direct you to the fact that 99% the loudest 3% of this forum's Exalted-playing population loves Infernals and thinks Sol Invictus perfectly sucks the big one.And by that I mean lollipop.

I think this is more accurate.

[Turalisj]

As they say, the vocal minority.

And some people around here are vocal enough that I've started wearing earplugs.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Mr Bookworm, I consider you a fairly intelligent and chicanerous individual. I'm sure you could figure something out for a Solar to array advantages for himself in a conspiracy to defeat the Sun in single combat via this charm.

At the very least, whatever you came up with would be more interesting and constructive than just being a Negative Nancy.

Bah, I'm more of a Debbie Downer.

So anyway, two options:

Easy mode: Obsidian Shards of Infinity. Infinite loops. Etc.

Hard mode: You need to drop the Temp-shield. No negotiating that. You do it, or the Sun kills you.

Once you've dropped Temperance, you might be able to ambush him, but you need to do so beyond the limits of his sight, so he can't just auto-succeed at the perception v. stealth roll. So, Solar Archery shenanigans, pray for luck (or rather, don't).

If you want to get into a slugging match with him? Bring back-up. A circle of elder Solars could beat him, although it'd probably get bloody (ironically, you need to hope that the Sun is using his Compassion and doesn't bust out the Clarion)

And of course, in all of these, you need to get him alone somehow, unless you want to face the entirety of Heaven.

But basically, outside of Solar Archery or extreme cheese (infinite loops, etc.), you're probably not beating the Sun in a one-on-one fight with printed material (there might be a way, but I don't know how you would do it barring the obvious stuff).

EDIT: Mind, that's printed material. It makes thematic sense that a Essence 9 or 10 could fight Sol in a duel (minus Temp, of course) and win. We just don't have those Charms.

[Lord Raziere]

Well personally I try to have as little bias as possible….

so I redirect you to the fact that since you admit that loudest 3% of the people here think that, it really doesn't help your case.

that and the Primordials are the ones who made the Games of Divinity addictive to everyone thats not them in the first place, so who is to blame for him being on celestial crack? the Primordials.

Who made the Great Curse? Primordials.

Who bullied Autocthon? Primordials.

Who tried to make the gods serve in eternal slavery, thus making the gods want to rise up in rebellion? Primordials.

Who wiped out 90% of Creation on a conceptual level during post-war negotiations? Primordials.

Who recruited the Death Lords so that they could spread the Great Contagion? Primordials.

From a certain point of view, Its all their fault and they deserve the fates they got.

[Story Time]

Sun-beam Farts uses Temperance to play the Games. That was how I always interpreted the material. He is not directly slacking if he has an Intimacy toward the games and the...community relationship which builds around it. There is a ( and I mean bizarre! ) bonus to Sol Incontinence playing the games. That bonus roughly translates to, "I must play the games to ensure Unity and Entertainment in Yu-Shan."

...and that's about as self-less as I think he can get. Really, I almost don't believe my own words. I do not usually give that character so much credit, but neither do I imagine that he was the one who came up with the idea. Someone else probably told him that the games served...some other weird kind of good.

They really do not serve any good.


For Meschlum:

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That was neat! But...Chancel-Key-Thing?
I am now so lost...
????

[Rikandur Azebol]

I think having problems with attacking one of the most benevolent people in setting is a very reasonable time to be a negative nancy…..

Benevolent ? To who, besides himself ? He's the guy who Destroyed Whole World so bad that it scared even him. Noone else ever made such genocide, and whatever Daystar does on daily basis (munching Unshaped to retain healthy shine) or whatever Solars/Primodials/Raksha did is children's games in comparision.

And there is simple artifact that can quite reliably break the Charms of big dude. Death at the Roots. Couple it with some Solar super-kill combo and Sol is toast.

[Story Time]

Benevolent ? To who, besides himself ?

The Hate is strong with this one. ...not that I really disagree. Never really liked the idea of Sol ( the one presented in the Exalted material ) and liked the manual even less. I always thought that Sol Invictus should be like the Big Blue School Boy. What we ended up with was...not-nice.

Definitely not benevolent.

[Lix Lorn]

This is not the way to fix the Solar Exalted. But it's a fun couple of sessions anyway.

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Outshining The Golden Cinder
Cost: -; Mins: Integrity 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Rising Sun Soul, Glory to the Most High, Shedding Infinite Radiance, Should the Sun Not Rise

This is not a path to transcendence. It is merely taking what you deserve.

How long have the Solar Exalted allowed their knees to bend to the Unconquered Sun? Allowed themselves to shine with his radiance? To wield his Holy armaments? There is no justice in this. They are not bound by him and his limitations. He is not their patron, or something they should strive to be. At best he is a prototype to be surpassed. Sol Invictus holds his position by virtue of his power, but there are three hundred suns greater than he. He is a mere God, whereas they are Exalted.

The training time for this charm must be spent outdoors, under the sky. On the final day, as the sun reaches its zenith, the training is complete. The Solar raises a hand to the sky, and his anima blazes to its full height. But it is different now; a symbol that the Solar Exalted are not defined by the themes of one sun - they define it. It blazes in a color of the Solar's choosing; a different wavelength of light to represent them, and how they interpret what sunlight should be. Their caste mark changes color too, as does any expression of their charms that produce golden visual effects. This change is permanent - they are now a red sun, or a blue sun, or what-have-you. They may even choose to take a golden hue of their own, but it must be slightly different than the Unconquered Sun's light; grander and brighter - something that, when it shines at noon, those around may easily see where the light of the sun fades away from their infinite glory.

Furthermore, their anima sharpens into a column that lances into the sky, carrying a challenge to Heaven. If Ignis Divine does not appear before sundown and defeat the Solar in single combat, he forfeits his right to define what Holiness is - he admits he is not the Highest with his weakness; that his Chosen are greater. Should this transpire, the Unconquered Sun loses the ability to declare Creatures of Darkness, and his life no longer upholds the concept of Holy. Only Solar Charms may make such declarations hence, and so long as at least one Solar possesses "Should the Sun Not Rise", Holy will persist.

This special challenge may only be issued once per Solar per incarnation, utilizing this charm.

A New Day From The Ashes
Cost: -; Mins: Integrity 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native, Training
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Outshining the Golden Cinder

This charm may only be learned by a Solar who has defeated the Unconquered Sun via the challenge offered by this charm's prerequisite. Indeed, defeating the Unconquered Sun teaches them this charm as a special instantaneous training effect, plunging them into XP debt if they do not have the experience to purchase it (this debt stacks with any other).

The Solar places his heel upon the Sun and smiles. His brilliant anima surges over his fallen foe, devouring the light within. Whether alive or dead, Ignis Divine shines no longer - a grey husk, severed from his panoply. While lesser wonders, such as the Godspear of All Searing Noon will melt away, something as vast and perfect as the Dirigible Engine Daystar persists. But it is the broken cinder's domain no longer. Its light pulsates and slowly transitions to match the Solar's new anima and bathe the world in its glow. However, it is not his domain either - it is property of all the Solar Exalted now, by their own divine right. This inflicts no special loyalty upon the various spirits that manage the Daystar or the Daystar itself. They will need to be made to see the righteous authority of the Solars in time.

No doubt the Celestial Bureaucracy will wish reprisal upon the Solar for this madness. However, by this charm, the Solar Exalted spiritually inherit the former position of the Sun. To lawfully persecute them, something will have to defeat the arbitrarily high Bureaucracy roll that Sol Invictus used to appoint himself in the first place. Commiserate to this position, all Solars immediately gain 1 dot of the Cult background, assuming they had less than 5, to represent residual prayers owed to them.

Promises, oaths, and fealty sworn to the Sun are now spiritual property of the Solar Exalted as well, if they are aware of them and have the presence of mind to call them in, repeal them, transfer them, or whatever they please.

(If the Sun lost the challenge by virtue of his not appearing, then he is forcibly ejected from wherever he might be, and hurtled across the world in a burning comet to land at the Solar's feet in abject humiliation. The charm continues as normal from there.)

Please run a game for this. Please. Let us play a circle of E6 solars with this charm, dealing with the consequences of having usurped the greatest Incarnae. PLEASE.

[Gensh]

The Hate is strong with this one. ...not that I really disagree. Never really liked the idea of Sol ( the one presented in the Exalted material ) and liked the manual even less. I always thought that Sol Invictus should be like the Big Blue School Boy. What we ended up with was...not-nice.

Definitely not benevolent.

Really, that's my problem with Sol. Initially, he was played up like a Big Damn Hero, but when it came to it, he wasn't anything special at all. In fact, that the original Sol continues to hold the reigns when he could theoretically be replaced by a new astrological Charm effectively ruins any sympathy one might hold for him or the Maidens. I know that from a narrative perspective, the Incarna need to have a reason to not just solve all of Creation's problems, but the way they're presented, they don't even want to solve any problems. Except, again, Luna.


@Raziere: Now, I thought we'd agreed not to go into this again, but...

Spoilered for those who don't want to see it, but I do clarify my argument a bit more here.

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that and the Primordials are the ones who made the Games of Divinity addictive to everyone thats not them in the first place, so who is to blame for him being on celestial crack? the Primordials.

That was actually an unintended side effect. While they didn't become magically addicted to it, many of them did still develop a gaming addiction and suffered from it in a similar manner. The fault here is with all of the Incarna deciding to sit down and play together instead of playing in shifts to properly supervise the Exalts or something. You cannot blame the gunsmith for a murder.

Who made the Great Curse? Primordials.

Yeah, that was kind of a petty move, honestly. I'm not a big fan of Mardukth.

Who bullied Autocthon? Primordials.

And then the Solars. I legitimately think there's something addictive about it.

Who tried to make the gods serve in eternal slavery, thus making the gods want to rise up in rebellion? Primordials.

To be entirely fair, if you're a Jedi who decides to build a bunch of droids to maintain your summer home, you don't necessarily expect them to go I, Robot on you. They could only understand both the gods and the biological races as fiction - they thought of them in much the same way they did raksha.

Who wiped out 90% of Creation on a conceptual level during post-war negotiations? Primordials.

Where'd you get that figure from? Destroying part of physics is always a bad thing, but I don't think 0.003% of SWLiHN constitutes 90% of Creation. Even if it does, that's because the Solars were being unreasonable. There's no way they didn't know that SWLiHN would follow their every order slavishly. She was offering to fix the damage that both sides had caused during the war because she was one of the few who could and because Creation mattered more to her than did Malfeas. They responded by throwing her into hell faster. Rather than seeing such brutes despoil her favorite parts of Creation, she destroyed them entirely as she was thrown in. The Empyreal Chaos surrendered peacefully, defying his nature - which by all rights is impossible - but the Solars still sought to kill them. Only Gaia's intercession reduced that death sentence to "merely" lobotomization when she pointed out killing Primordials reduced Creation. There were no post-war negotiations. Likewise, we know that no one had ever tried to negotiate before the war because we would have a nice little story about how the great and benevolent Sol failed to convince the horrific Tyrant. As I mentioned before, the Tyrant held such favoritism for Sol that it might have even worked, but I don't blame Sol for that so much since he's the god of the ultimate weapon before anything else. In any case, we have two confirmed events of that same "Tyrant" reaching outside of himself: creating Sol before the war and surrendering at its end. He is the ultimate King, so he would have known when he must forge a treaty rather than fight. I can understand the apprehension about trusting him, but maiming a prisoner of war is hardly honorable. It's always said that they turned the Primordials to Yozis for fear that they'd escape, yet the most wily of them only suffered a transformation that arguably made him stronger.

Who recruited the Death Lords so that they could spread the Great Contagion? Primordials.

Well, it was the Dowager that created the Contagion in the first place, but as far as the recruitment of the Deathlords goes, all the Neverborn were offering was the traditional deal with the devil. You can hate them, but fault lies equally with those 13 Solars.

From a certain point of view, Its all their fault and they deserve the fates they got.

Regardless of my above points you could certainly make an excellent argument that it is in fact the Primordials' fault. However, I don't believe that anything deserves the punishment they received, and I especially don't believe that a bunch of genocidal madmen deserve to be the setting's designated heroes, which is one of the reasons I suggested a partial rewrite.

[Story Time]

This is not the way to fix the Solar Exalted. But it's a fun couple of sessions anyway.

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Outshining The Golden Cinder
Cost: -; Mins: Integrity 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Rising Sun Soul, Glory to the Most High, Shedding Infinite Radiance, Should the Sun Not Rise

This is not a path to transcendence. It is merely taking what you deserve.

How long have the Solar Exalted allowed their knees to bend to the Unconquered Sun? Allowed themselves to shine with his radiance? To wield his Holy armaments? There is no justice in this. They are not bound by him and his limitations. He is not their patron, or something they should strive to be. At best he is a prototype to be surpassed. Sol Invictus holds his position by virtue of his power, but there are three hundred suns greater than he. He is a mere God, whereas they are Exalted.

The training time for this charm must be spent outdoors, under the sky. On the final day, as the sun reaches its zenith, the training is complete. The Solar raises a hand to the sky, and his anima blazes to its full height. But it is different now; a symbol that the Solar Exalted are not defined by the themes of one sun - they define it. It blazes in a color of the Solar's choosing; a different wavelength of light to represent them, and how they interpret what sunlight should be. Their caste mark changes color too, as does any expression of their charms that produce golden visual effects. This change is permanent - they are now a red sun, or a blue sun, or what-have-you. They may even choose to take a golden hue of their own, but it must be slightly different than the Unconquered Sun's light; grander and brighter - something that, when it shines at noon, those around may easily see where the light of the sun fades away from their infinite glory.

Furthermore, their anima sharpens into a column that lances into the sky, carrying a challenge to Heaven. If Ignis Divine does not appear before sundown and defeat the Solar in single combat, he forfeits his right to define what Holiness is - he admits he is not the Highest with his weakness; that his Chosen are greater. Should this transpire, the Unconquered Sun loses the ability to declare Creatures of Darkness, and his life no longer upholds the concept of Holy. Only Solar Charms may make such declarations hence, and so long as at least one Solar possesses "Should the Sun Not Rise", Holy will persist.

This special challenge may only be issued once per Solar per incarnation, utilizing this charm.

A New Day From The Ashes
Cost: -; Mins: Integrity 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native, Training
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Outshining the Golden Cinder

This charm may only be learned by a Solar who has defeated the Unconquered Sun via the challenge offered by this charm's prerequisite. Indeed, defeating the Unconquered Sun teaches them this charm as a special instantaneous training effect, plunging them into XP debt if they do not have the experience to purchase it (this debt stacks with any other).

The Solar places his heel upon the Sun and smiles. His brilliant anima surges over his fallen foe, devouring the light within. Whether alive or dead, Ignis Divine shines no longer - a grey husk, severed from his panoply. While lesser wonders, such as the Godspear of All Searing Noon will melt away, something as vast and perfect as the Dirigible Engine Daystar persists. But it is the broken cinder's domain no longer. Its light pulsates and slowly transitions to match the Solar's new anima and bathe the world in its glow. However, it is not his domain either - it is property of all the Solar Exalted now, by their own divine right. This inflicts no special loyalty upon the various spirits that manage the Daystar or the Daystar itself. They will need to be made to see the righteous authority of the Solars in time.

No doubt the Celestial Bureaucracy will wish reprisal upon the Solar for this madness. However, by this charm, the Solar Exalted spiritually inherit the former position of the Sun. To lawfully persecute them, something will have to defeat the arbitrarily high Bureaucracy roll that Sol Invictus used to appoint himself in the first place. Commiserate to this position, all Solars immediately gain 1 dot of the Cult background, assuming they had less than 5, to represent residual prayers owed to them.

Promises, oaths, and fealty sworn to the Sun are now spiritual property of the Solar Exalted as well, if they are aware of them and have the presence of mind to call them in, repeal them, transfer them, or whatever they please.

(If the Sun lost the challenge by virtue of his not appearing, then he is forcibly ejected from wherever he might be, and hurtled across the world in a burning comet to land at the Solar's feet in abject humiliation. The charm continues as normal from there.)

Wow, I totally missed this! Lorn is right about this kind of game. I don't know that I'd automatically join, but I would definitely look at the registration sheet.

the golden anima, the golden charms, the golden artifacts……

The answer to this, obviously, is Fey. I may not be Meschlum, but I'm pretty sure there's a way to change anima color. Rather, I should say, "Remove or distort the required gold from the anima." I think I'll look into this.


By the way, "Thanks, Meschlum!" You've got me looking through the manuals while thinking that Solar Gold, "Just won't do."

[Mr.Bookworm]

Who wiped out 90% of Creation on a conceptual level during post-war negotiations? Primordials.

Oh, Sol, no. The 90% figure is stupid fanon that breaks the setting in half. It was only canonized in DotFA because the author who wrote that section heard it repeated so often he assumed it was canon (the author in question said this on the forums); it's not.

So, no, SWLIHN did not wipe out 90% of concepts with the Three Spheres Cataclysm.

I prefer to just retcon the entire incident from existence, because it creates so many stupid problems and adds pretty much nothing to the setting.

Really, that's my problem with Sol. Initially, he was played up like a Big Damn Hero, but when it came to it, he wasn't anything special at all. In fact, that the original Sol continues to hold the reigns when he could theoretically be replaced by a new astrological Charm effectively ruins any sympathy one might hold for him or the Maidens. I know that from a narrative perspective, the Incarna need to have a reason to not just solve all of Creation's problems, but the way they're presented, they don't even want to solve any problems. Except, again, Luna.

Sol's arc mirrors that of his Chosen. You're not supposed to say "whoooo, go Sol!" while he's slacking off in his duties. You're supposed to go to Heaven, walk into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and Bright Slap some sense back into him.

Also, the Charm in question can't replace gods unless they're dead, which RotSE makes very clear is not a good idea. Even ignoring the actual effects of his death (not good), there's the fact that the person who replaces him is going to be worse then the Unconquered Sun (does anyone want Ahlat to be the Unconquered Sun?), unless the PCs take matters into their own hands. And then you need the approval of Luna/the Five Maidens (and the Maidens need to unlock the Charm in the first place) to actually appoint a candidate.

Anyway, this is a problem you face with all of the big shakers and movers of the setting. The big people in the setting are deliberately deprotagonized by the writers, so that the PCs are the ones who matter and are important. I mean, if Sol was still an active force in the setting, we'd have Forgotten Realms syndrome. When Sol could solve absolutely everything in the setting by just taking charge and doing stuff (slightly hyperbolic), why do you matter? You'll notice that all of the Important People™ in the setting have restrictions.

That was actually an unintended side effect. While they didn't become magically addicted to it, many of them did still develop a gaming addiction and suffered from it in a similar manner. The fault here is with all of the Incarna deciding to sit down and play together instead of playing in shifts to properly supervise the Exalts or something. You cannot blame the gunsmith for a murder.

No, they became magically addicted to it. That is very, very clear by canon (go read the sidebar on pg. 11 of Glories of the Most High: TUS). Anyone who's not a Primordial who sits down at the Games gets magically whammied into addiction.

And, hey, who forced the Sun into playing the Games in the first place?

And then the Solars. I legitimately think there's something addictive about it.

Man, if Exalted was a high school, Autochthon would be the sweet, nerdy science teacher who reveals at a suitably dramatic moment that he is a master of kung-fu and beats in the face of the gym teacher.

Ultimately, however, there are arguments in-story for releasing the Yozis. To those of us on the outside, though, it seems pretty clear that releasing the Yozis would be a great thing for the Yozis and absolutely no one else. Even the Green Sun Princes are now stuck in a world where there masters have, at best, stopped giving a **** about them because they've done their part, screw them, the Yozis have theirs and everyone else can die in a hole. And at worst, the Yozis have decided to kill them so they can't rebel.

Please run a game for this. Please. Let us play a circle of E6 solars with this charm, dealing with the consequences of having usurped the greatest Incarnae. PLEASE.

I would totally play in this game too (my bitching earlier was about it as a general Charm, for a Charm specifically for a game to carry an idea it works great).

[aetherialDawn]

As far as the Yozis:

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They were not hampered to keep them locked up, exactly.
The Ebon Dragon is a testament to that; the one whose very nature is made to find the cracks in any system and escape it. Oramus was bound more greatly for fear that he would do the trait that he shares with the Ebon Dragon - neither can be confined forever.

And yet, those who were maimed most greatly were the most prominent Yozis, not the ones most likely to escape. The Yozis that the others looked up to - Malfeas, Cecelyne, SWLiHN. Rule, Law, and Order.
There's no indication that Cecelyne was hypocritical before, merely unable to understand that her laws should protect anything lower than they did. She had her justice removed.
Malfeas was a benevolent leader (sort of... There is Ink Monkeys stuff against that, but his point of view said it was benevolent. Really, the Primordials were to the Empyreal Chaos as the gods were to the Primordials - allowed to do what they wished, within the iron-hard bindings of their King. And yet the Yozis, by asking and holding court and in general engaging in social rather than physical combat, got the Games of Divinity.) As evidenced by his charmset, it was not so much his kingship as his benevolence that was removed.
SWLiHN... I'm not sure what was taken from her, exactly. She still has her Hierarchy, but it's now not so much 'perfect from every angle' as 'perfect from the top, and I don't care about those below any more. They don't deserve anything.' If I had to put a term to it, they removed her charity, or whatever made her want to build something wonderful for everyone.

What did the Ebon Dragon lose? Not his self-interest. Not his trickery. No, he lost his naturally immaterial form, for a material one.
Given that he was semi-explicitly a shadow of his future self before, waiting for his chance, that seems like something that doesn't benefit you.
But... He's not someone you'd want to be locked up with.

Supposedly Hell was not by nature horrible, it is only so because the Yozis make it so. But the pattern to the changes seems to be to remove the one part that makes them worthwhile, replacing it with hypocrisy and hatred. The hatred can be explain as, well, bitterness over losing the war, perhaps. Except the Ebon Dragon - because he was already nasty enough to torture everyone.

I've painted a picture of a Hell made as revenge rather than function. Given that without Gaia's intercession there would be more Neverborn, who are fairly manifestly Bad News, I think it's a fairly striking picture.
It is not, of course, accurate. The nature of the setting as a shared one makes such a picture impossible, and the nature of the Yozis/Primordials as alien beings would make an accurate picture appear inaccurate regardless.

Still, it's not a pretty picture, and it is founded on things we know. We could also say that the gods removed the bits of the Yozis that told them they were Right, leaving Hypocrisy now laid bare. It would be somewhat less accurate, but accurate enough to matter.

As far as GSPs: It's telling that the Ebon Dragon pushed it, the Ebon Dragon sees them as having done their part, and the other Yozis don't really understand and are ultimately neutral forces in relation to the GSPs, seeing them as confusing beings and swinging between 'they're important to me, apparently, if a little strange' and 'oh Malfeas oh Malfeas oh Malfeas EXALTED this was SUCH a bad idea!'*
*With the occasional 'Treat them as I do everyone else - wait, crud, that might have been a bad idea.'

It's all about 'The Ebon Dragon Screws Over Everyone' for the Reclamation as far as I can see when you have full knowledge.

As far as those staying out of this: The idea of a Solar dueling Sol for an entire day successfully, and winning by proving that Sol is not perfect enough to win, rather than by proving his own ability to win, is exactly the sort of sounds-fine-but-is-actually-horrible-and-hypocritical-in-spots that I would expect of a powerful NPC Solar.

[Mr.Bookworm]

As far as those staying out of this: The idea of a Solar dueling Sol for an entire day successfully, and winning by proving that Sol is not perfect enough to win, rather than by proving his own ability to win, is exactly the sort of sounds-fine-but-is-actually-horrible-and-hypocritical-in-spots that I would expect of a powerful NPC Solar.

Well, see, by Exalted rules, you can't do that. You can't beat Sol by your own force of might. The Sun is Unconquered, and the title isn't hyperbole. At his full glory, there is literally nothing in the game that can beat him.

When you get to the ultimate movers and shakers of the cosmos, fights stop being about pure throw-down slugfests. They're more battles of philosophy with some awesome violence in the foreground.

Look at the Ebon Dragon. He's weak as hell by Exalted standards. But if you can actually get him into a straight fight, you have already won, because you have proven that he cannot deceive you. The actual attacking part is the death blow, not the entire fight.

So it goes with Sol. To beat him, you first must crush his philosophy (and as I outlined above, you need to do it pretty thoroughly, or he's going to kill you). That's as much a part of the fight as the actual fighting is.

As far as GSPs: It's telling that the Ebon Dragon pushed it, the Ebon Dragon sees them as having done their part, and the other Yozis don't really understand and are ultimately neutral forces in relation to the GSPs, seeing them as confusing beings and swinging between 'they're important to me, apparently, if a little strange' and 'oh Malfeas oh Malfeas oh Malfeas EXALTED this was SUCH a bad idea!'*
*With the occasional 'Treat them as I do everyone else - wait, crud, that might have been a bad idea.'

Eh? It seems pretty clear that the Yozis ultimately don't care about the Infernals, as long as they get their release.

I mean, look at Malfeas. He wanted to beat the Green Sun Princes with a stick until they did as they were told, because that's how he thinks the universe works. The Ebon Dragon (who ultimately can at least sort-of kind-of get his head around the semi-mortal viewpoint) had to take him aside and explain that it doesn't work that way.

So, rock stars, yay, and the Yozis think the Green Sun Princes should be perfectly happy with their lot because they are bending over backwards to accommodate them, instead of just forcing them into slavery.

They're going to be surprised as hell when the first GSP gets pissed off at their masters and goes rogue.

It's all about 'The Ebon Dragon Screws Over Everyone' for the Reclamation as far as I can see when you have full knowledge.

This is totally true, though.

[Xefas]

I prefer to just retcon the entire incident from existence, because it creates so many stupid problems and adds pretty much nothing to the setting.

Look, if we got rid of everything in the setting that only served to create stupid problems and added nothing in return, all we'd have is a game about a bunch of colorful badasses globetrotting across a vaguely Asian fantasy world doing epic things and getting into wildly entertaining kung fu fights.

Is that what you want?

Just, Avatar with the power turned up to 11?

Is that what anyone wants?

Just this-


-VS this-


-all day?

Trust me. No one wants that.

[Gensh]

Sol's arc mirrors that of his Chosen. You're not supposed to say "whoooo, go Sol!" while he's slacking off in his duties. You're supposed to go to Heaven, walk into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and Bright Slap some sense back into him.

I already said that.

Also, the Charm in question can't replace gods unless they're dead, which RotSE makes very clear is not a good idea. Even ignoring the actual effects of his death (not good), there's the fact that the person who replaces him is going to be worse then the Unconquered Sun (does anyone want Ahlat to be the Unconquered Sun?), unless the PCs take matters into their own hands.

When I said a new astrology Charm, I meant having some Chosen of Endings going off to meditate on ending the cycle of constantly overthrowing leaders or something. If you can move around any other divine position, then the Incarna should be no exception. As far as replacement candidates go, Lytek, Five Days Darkness, and that other gold guy whose name I can never remember are all excellent choices. Furthermore, even if they became Sol, they still wouldn't be the original, which would provide a justification for them not being all that helpful as far as the setting goes without making them out to be bums.

Anyway, this is a problem you face with all of the big shakers and movers of the setting. The big people in the setting are deliberately deprotagonized by the writers, so that the PCs are the ones who matter and are important. I mean, if Sol was still an active force in the setting, we'd have Forgotten Realms syndrome. When Sol could solve absolutely everything in the setting by just taking charge and doing stuff (slightly hyperbolic), why do you matter? You'll notice that all of the Important People™ in the setting have restrictions.

I already said that too.

No, they became magically addicted to it.

I meant that the Primordials had issues with the Games as well.

And, hey, who forced the Sun into playing the Games in the first place?

Luna and the Maidens are still accountable for their own failure here. At least Luna wriggles away from them a bit, even if it's just because she's Oramus' spawn.

Ultimately, however, there are arguments in-story for releasing the Yozis. To those of us on the outside, though, it seems pretty clear that releasing the Yozis would be a great thing for the Yozis and absolutely no one else.

That's not entirely true. Certainly, I'm against the Reclamation or any other plot that involves having the still half-crazed Yozis set loose upon an unsuspecting world, but that's not the only thing that can be done. In creating the GSPs, they messed up big time from their own point of view. I've said before that by opening their Charmsets, they've literally opened their minds to new ideas. The non-Reclamation Yozis and the Neverborn and the gods and elementals are all strictly bound to their themes, but those poor suckers who opened their Charmsets have let humans have free reign inside their brains. Their themes themselves cannot be changed or removed, but they can be shifted and rearranged to benefit humanity. I'm talking about setting up a parliamentary system of government where the Thing Infernal now meets. I obviously don't have any specifics worked out, but a House of Serfs with human, Jadeborn, Dragon King, and first circle members assigned by a proportional representation, a House of Citizens with Dragonblooded, Alchemical, and second circle members elected by popular vote, and a House of Peers consisting solely of 50 GSPs who actually make changes to the world by creating new Charms, could actually work. The third circles and other celestial Exalts would be federal governors, and Ligier would be the head of state - the powerless but pretty figurehead. Malfeas himself would be something like a permanent prime minister, which would help a bit with policing the GSPs. Yes, I empathize with Malfeas more than a good deal of the other characters, but I'm not dumb enough to think that he should be let out without some "tweaking" in an attempt to both restore him to a fraction of his former glory and to make him more compatible with the ideas of lesser creatures.

And yet, those who were maimed most greatly were the most prominent Yozis, not the ones most likely to escape.

Exactly.

There is Ink Monkeys stuff against that, but his point of view said it was benevolent.

I was flipping through the wiki tonight and found one Charm from the Demented One that painted him as kind of sort of benevolent, but I think that's from well before he was a Monkey.

It's all about 'The Ebon Dragon Screws Over Everyone' for the Reclamation as far as I can see when you have full knowledge.

That's exactly why the GSPs should be used as agents of change in repairing the setting - assuming they get over themselves first.

[Mr.Bookworm]

When I said a new astrology Charm, I meant having some Chosen of Endings going off to meditate on ending the cycle of constantly overthrowing leaders or something. If you can move around any other divine position, then the Incarna should be no exception.

Except they totally are an exception to everything. Heaven is not a democracy. Sol (and the other Incarnae to a more limited extent) is the complete and total ruler of Yu-Shan.

If the other gods attempted to have him replaced, it would be a rebellion, and he would be well within his right as the Most High to have the rebels executed/cast down/CoD'd. It wouldn't even blip his Virtues, because Sol is a dictator, and as the title implies, gets to dictate what happens.

As far as replacement candidates go, Lytek, Five Days Darkness, and that other gold guy whose name I can never remember are all excellent choices. Furthermore, even if they became Sol, they still wouldn't be the original, which would provide a justification for them not being all that helpful as far as the setting goes without making them out to be bums.

Lytek, Five Days Darkness, and An-Teng are pretty stand-up dudes. But none of them have the political clout to have a chance of gaining the seat.

Pretty much the only way you have a chance of getting someone decent on there is to go completely around the bureaucratic slap fight that will come from the death of the Sun. Which is a great plot hook, mind you.

And anyway, no, they would be immediately be the Sun. That's what the Charm does. It's not a Chosen of Endings poking you on the forehead and saying you can call yourself by whatever silly name you want to now, it metaphysically makes you that being, powers and duties and all (but not mind and personality). That's the whole point of the Charm.

I meant that the Primordials had issues with the Games as well.

No, they didn't. The Primordials are immune to the mojo of the Games.

Luna and the Maidens are still accountable for their own failure here. At least Luna wriggles away from them a bit, even if it's just because she's Oramus' spawn.

What failures?

Their themes themselves cannot be changed or removed, but they can be shifted and rearranged to benefit humanity. I'm talking about setting up a parliamentary system of government where the Thing Infernal now meets. I obviously don't have any specifics worked out, but a House of Serfs with human, Jadeborn, Dragon King, and first circle members assigned by a proportional representation, a House of Citizens with Dragonblooded, Alchemical, and second circle members elected by popular vote, and a House of Peers consisting solely of 50 GSPs who actually make changes to the world by creating new Charms, could actually work. The third circles and other celestial Exalts would be federal governors, and Ligier would be the head of state - the powerless but pretty figurehead. Malfeas himself would be something like a permanent prime minister, which would help a bit with policing the GSPs. Yes, I empathize with Malfeas more than a good deal of the other characters, but I'm not dumb enough to think that he should be let out without some "tweaking" in an attempt to both restore him to a fraction of his former glory and to make him more compatible with the ideas of lesser creatures.

You are talking about the complete and total lobotomization of the Yozis, since nothing less could ever make them act that way.

Which is a totally valid goal for an Exalted, but hey.

Exactly.

I would point out that there is absolutely no way to determine how a maiming will affect a Yozi. The Solars didn't say "we will assign exactly this much maiming to X, so he can't...", they carved up the Yozis, turned Malfeas inside out, put Cecelyne around him, and then chucked all of their POWs in there. There's a reason it's called the fetich roulette in the fandom.

And the oaths are pretty much total. Until the Green Sun Princes happened, there was pretty much no way ever for them to escape. The Yozis are locked up tight (I mean, honestly, the Reclamation is pretty much doomed to failure, and you'll note that the one scheme that semi-canonically kind-of works has absolutely nothing to do with the primary thrust of the Reclamation).

[Tavar]

The Hate is strong with this one. ...not that I really disagree. Never really liked the idea of Sol ( the one presented in the Exalted material ) and liked the manual even less. I always thought that Sol Invictus should be like the Big Blue School Boy. What we ended up with was...not-nice.

Definitely not benevolent.

Huh. Very interesting that you should say something like this. Somewhat recently(past couple of months), on the official forums, a thread was broached on the subject, specifically how they wanted to move away from the current view of him being a Golden Jesus/Superman expy.

What Exactly makes you think that he's so horrible?

[Turalisj]

Huh. Very interesting that you should say something like this. Somewhat recently(past couple of months), on the official forums, a thread was broached on the subject, specifically how they wanted to move away from the current view of him being a Golden Jesus/Superman expy.

What Exactly makes you think that he's so horrible?

That fanon seems to think he should be a Mary Sue, but isn't?

I mean, that's the only source of hate I can conceive towards him.

[Gensh]

If the other gods attempted to have him replaced, it would be a rebellion, and he would be well within his right as the Most High to have the rebels executed/cast down/CoD'd. It wouldn't even blip his Virtues, because Sol is a dictator, and as the title implies, gets to dictate what happens.

It would definitely be against his Virtues because Sol represents Virtues in a more subjective form than the Empyreal Chaos' "I AM PERFECT." While Heaven is most definitely a dictatorship, Sol is by definition and against all logic perfectly Virtuous so long as he doesn't convince himself that nothing bad is happening - which he can do easily with his perfect Conviction. Not to mention that the Sidereal wouldn't even have to go to Sol specifically. He could establish a petition, show that he had the Charm, and pass it on to Nara-O or someone. It might make it through, which is better than doing nothing.

Lytek, Five Days Darkness, and An-Teng are pretty stand-up dudes. But none of them have the political clout to have a chance of gaining the seat.

Since the selection of an Incarna is by appointment rather than a popular vote, political clout isn't really an issue.

And anyway, no, they would be immediately be the Sun. That's what the Charm does. It's not a Chosen of Endings poking you on the forehead and saying you can call yourself by whatever silly name you want to now, it metaphysically makes you that being, powers and duties and all (but not mind and personality). That's the whole point of the Charm.

They would be the Sun. They would command the Daystar and all that means. Nevertheless, they wouldn't be the same Sun. While all the gods would have to obey the new UCS, they wouldn't necessarily respect him - and look at how well that turned out for the EC.

No, they didn't. The Primordials are immune to the mojo of the Games.

I said that while they didn't have a magical addiction, they did have a mundane one as a side effect of the Games being just that good.

What failures?

Playing the Games without expecting that they might be a bit over their heads. I mean, I can't blame all of them, but at least one of the Maidens should have some foresight.

You are talking about the complete and total lobotomization of the Yozis, since nothing less could ever make them act that way.

Not so. It would be an awful lot like playing connect-the-dots for a century or ten, but it's entirely possible by daisy-chaining Charms that are similar but fundamentally different in a small way. It's simply a matter of how much change can be incorporated in each Charm and therefore how many Charms are required in the end.

I would point out that there is absolutely no way to determine how a maiming will affect a Yozi. The Solars didn't say "we will assign exactly this much maiming to X, so he can't...", they carved up the Yozis, turned Malfeas inside out, put Cecelyne around him, and then chucked all of their POWs in there. There's a reason it's called the fetich roulette in the fandom.

I remember having heard that, but at the same time, it also doesn't quite match. I know that inflicting fetich death is random - hence getting Adorjan who is almost worse than Adrian - but the butchering of lesser souls is relatively predictable, no? Wouldn't it simply be a manner of determining which soul is representative of which aspects of the Yozi at large? There's be a certain amount of hit-and-miss, but there would always be a reasonable chance of success, especially with Occult/Lore Charms.

And the oaths are pretty much total. Until the Green Sun Princes happened, there was pretty much no way ever for them to escape. The Yozis are locked up tight (I mean, honestly, the Reclamation is pretty much doomed to failure, and you'll note that the one scheme that semi-canonically kind-of works has absolutely nothing to do with the primary thrust of the Reclamation).

Yeah, the basic theory on which the Reclamation stands is rather simple and depends on a concept that has more or less not been expanded upon in the game, but at the same time, I can see it as at least possible because it might be vague because no one in setting cares about the actual process of marriage enough to know about that gaping loophole. Except Venus, but you know, the Games.

Huh. Very interesting that you should say something like this. Somewhat recently(past couple of months), on the official forums, a thread was broached on the subject, specifically how they wanted to move away from the current view of him being a Golden Jesus/Superman expy.

What Exactly makes you think that he's so horrible?

It's really more about a betrayal of expectations than anything. If we're given a character who is definitively human, then we can understand him and get behind his struggles. On the other hand, if the character is given as being everything a man should aspire to and then ends up being lesser than the other character, then there's literally nothing to like about the character. My problem isn't that Sol is useless because he's enthralled to a device forged at the dawn of the universe, but because he knows he's enthralled and that bad things are happening but does not try to resist. He sends Zeniths visions - who cares? Abyssal Joe just became a Solar through an epic struggle not just with his inner demons but with a Deathlord. The Bishop is pretty close to being one-dimensional and has little to no exposition, but he still manages to be more appealing than Sol because he at least wants to do something. And when the creepy old man is more appealing than the god of awesome, something's wrong with the setting.

[TheCountAlucard]

To be entirely fair, if you're a Jedi who decides to build a bunch of droids to maintain your summer home, you don't necessarily expect them to go I, Robot on you.

Yes, you do. Droids in SW had a way of picking up mannerisms and traits over time as a result of their heuristic programming, and if you didn't wipe their memories every six months or so, they had chances of developing independent thought and character quirks.

Likewise, we know that no one had ever tried to negotiate before the war because we would have a nice little story about how the great and benevolent Sol failed to convince the horrific Tyrant.

There's totally a fallacy at work in here, but because I don't feel like looking up the name of it, and then making some sort of clever analogy involving an absence of mention of housecats, I'll just skip that and point out the possibility that diplomacy was tried by the gods, time and again, before the war, and simply didn't get mentioned.

And then you need the approval of Luna/the Five Maidens (and the Maidens need to unlock the Charm in the first place) to actually appoint a candidate.

And living Sidereals. On an unrelated note, if your ST was as over-zealous about the Lotus Massacre as mine was, I suggest you curb his enthusiasm, preferably in a way that involves an actual curb.

Man, if Exalted was a high school, Autochthon would be the sweet, nerdy science teacher who reveals at a suitably dramatic moment that he is a master of kung-fu and beats in the face of the gym teacher.

Not to go throwing more fuel to the Infernal-supporters, but he well could be seen as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well.

[Gensh]

Yes, you do. Droids in SW had a way of picking up mannerisms and traits over time as a result of their heuristic programming, and if you didn't wipe their memories every six months or so, they had chances of developing independent thought and character quirks.

Okay, so maybe that wasn't the best example, but no one would expect rebellion from the first generation of droids. I used Star Wars because it's got a large enough cultural influence to be a relatively common metaphor, but the better comparison is the quarians and the geth in Mass Effect. In ME, the quarians are solely given the sympathetic role despite them being the oppressors in this case. In ME2, however, both sides of the discussion are given, and a Shepard who takes a strictly neutral path when that issue arises will point out that they're both at fault.

There's totally a fallacy at work in here, but because I don't feel like looking up the name of it, and then making some sort of clever analogy involving an absence of mention of housecats, I'll just skip that and point out the possibility that diplomacy was tried by the gods, time and again, before the war, and simply didn't get mentioned.

You're right; the gods probably asked the Primordials to not kill them and devour their component motes. But we don't have a confirmation that a human-centric conversation occurred between Sol and the EC. No Primordial would care what any god would say, Incarna or not - except the EC with Sol. The EC was sufficiently invested in Sol that he referred to him as his son, and whether he considered Sol anything more than his favorite roomba, he still cared enough to listen, if Sol had asked. Since we're mostly told the story from the pro-Solar perspective, we would have a little story about how the EC said no and that was the dealbreaker for Sol. Again, since Sol is apparently the god of a weapon rather than specifically a concept, I wouldn't keep mentioning it if it weren't for the fluff text that makes him seem utterly righteous when it doesn't sync with his actions.

Not to go throwing more fuel to the Infernal-supporters, but he well could be seen as Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well.

I don't keep track of actors anyway!

[Story Time]

Man, if Exalted was a high school, Autochthon would be the sweet, nerdy science teacher who reveals at a suitably dramatic moment that he is a master of kung-fu and beats in the face of the gym teacher.

I want Gaia as my Guidance Counsilor!

This also makes me think of Maito Gai as the Physical Education instructor.

Huh. Very interesting that you should say something like this. Somewhat recently(past couple of months), on the official forums, a thread was broached on the subject, specifically how they wanted to move away from the current view of him being a Golden Jesus/Superman expy.

What Exactly makes you think that he's so horrible?

You are specifically asking for my bias in an open thread? Lovely. Let me think about it for a time...very carefully. While I do not accept all of the commentary that followed, this sentence from Gensh caught my attention regarding it:

It's really more about a betrayal of expectations than anything.

However, Gensh, I think it was obvious that you personally were not being addressed.

[aetherialDawn]

There's totally a fallacy at work in here, but because I don't feel like looking up the name of it, and then making some sort of clever analogy involving an absence of mention of housecats, I'll just skip that and point out the possibility that diplomacy was tried by the gods, time and again, before the war, and simply didn't get mentioned.

I then posit that there are an equal or greater number of negative points not mentioned as the overall theme is that the gods were right - or at least, the good guys at the time, if in over their heads.

I can say anything I like, if one includes things that aren't mentioned.


Also, the Gods could not have made their desires clear, because the Primordials were blindsided by it (literally, their Lidless Eye That Sees was killed to blind them as the first overt act.)
Now, I don't BLAME the Gods for that. The Primordials, given warning that their creations were so unhappy as to be willing to war, would probably have crushed them down to motes and recycled up some new ones. But we can't say that more than the most subtle, butler-like of insinuations or complaints were made. At least not with anything approaching certainty.

What I would say is most likely is this: The secret diplomacy with Autochthon and Gaia is the diplomacy that occurred. They didn't only mention the secret stuff; the secret stuff is all the Gods could afford to risk.
What's not quite as okay is the unilateral imposition of the surrender oaths. They let the Ebon Dragon, lord of lies and loopholes, have a say, but not She Who Lives in Her Name or Cecelyne, representing Utter Truth and Complete Law respectively? Something just doesn't add up.


Also, yes. After the incidents with Adorjan and Sacheverell, the Exalted engaged in non-fetich soul destruction, shaping the Yozis like topiary rather than burning them to the ground and seeing what tree sprouted in their place. I'm not sure that order of events is specific in canon, but engaging in controlled soul death of non-fetiches is.
I wouldn't have killed more fetiches either once I'd gotten the crazy stalker murderer winds and the "If I wake up I'm going to screw over everything forever" Yozi.