Help Brainstorming a lightly armored, Int/Wis/Cha based Warrior

[Ziegander]

I had set out to develop a difficult class, one that wears no armor (or only light armor), uses no shield, and relies only on the sharpness, swiftness, and strength of his own mind and character to inform his combat skill.

The idea is a full base attack warrior that is as effective as any Str/Dex/Con based one but that focuses on Int/Wis/Cha. The problem I'm having is finding a way to do this without making the class far too dip-worthy. It needs to be able to attack reliably without needing Strength or Dexterity, it needs to have respectable hit points and AC, and it needs these things at 1st level. Of course, the standard procedure, simply replacing the normal combat stats with the mental ones, would just make casters more powerful...

Any ideas?

EDIT: Progress so far

Spoiler

Show

Alignment: Any
HD: d8

Attack Bonus: As Fighter.

Saves: Poor Fortitude, Good Reflex, Good Will.

Class Skills (6+Int): Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, and Use Magic Device.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Grandmaster is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (but not tower shields).

Advanced Proficiency (Ex): A Grandmaster takes the study of his weapons very seriously, and by employing his superior intellect is better able to understand their complexities in both theory and practice than his muscle-bound contemporaries.

After spending 24 hours in practice with a weapon for which he has proficiency, a Grandmaster adds his Intelligence bonus to attack and damage rolls with that weapon. These hours in practice must be split into sessions of no less than 1 hour per day but no more than 8 hours per day, and must be taken at least every other day.

A Grandmaster may boast advanced proficiency with a number of different weapons up to his Wisdom modifier. A Grandmaster may begin play with advanced weapon proficiency in as many weapons. Advanced proficiency may be used in place of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to qualify for class features, feats, or prestige classes. A Grandmaster loses the benefits of advanced proficiency while he is Confused.

Instinctive Avoidance (Ex): A Grandmaster adds his Wisdom modifier as a dodge bonus to AC and to Reflex saves. Relying on his instincts to protect him, a Grandmaster errs on the side of his "flight" impulse when things get hairy and when reduced to less than half his total hit points must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Encounter Level) or become Shaken. This fear can last for as long as the source of damage that reduced the Grandmaster below half his total hit points remains able to deal him damage, but never lasts longer than 1 hour.

Unyielding Confidence (Ex): A Grandmaster gains additional hit points with each Grandmaster level equal to his Charisma modifier and adds his Charisma modifier to Fortitude saves. Like diamond is harder than stone but shatters under too much strain so is a Grandmaster's strength of character, thus he suffers double standard morale penalties, and struggles with Mind-Afflicting Effects for double their standard durations. A Grandmaster that becomes immune to Mind-Afflicting Effects loses this feature for the duration.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Grandmaster retains his Dexterity modifier (and by extension his dodge bonuses) to AC (if any) if he is caught flat-footed or attacked by an invisible creature. He also cannot be flanked except by a Rogue with at least four more Rogue levels than his Grandmaster level.

Mind Over Matter (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Grandmaster may use his Intelligence score in place of his Strength score when making skill or ability checks and to qualify for class features, feats, or prestige classes. He may use his Wisdom score in place of his Dexterity score, and his Charisma score in place of his Constitution score in the same way.

Bonus Feats
At 4th level and every four levels there after a Grandmaster gains a bonus feat drawn from the Fighter's list of bonus feats. He must meet the prerequisites for feats chosen in this way (though see Mind Over Matter above).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Add in a multi-class penalty like the Monk's?

[Ziegander]

Add in a multi-class penalty like the Monk's?

If that's the only recourse I'd just as soon abandon the idea. I try to be as multiclass friendly in design as I can. Not because I love min-maxing and powergaming, but because the more multiclass friendly a class is the more character concepts it is able to facilitate.

[Noctis Vigil]

Maybe make them gain abilities slowly over the course of the class, and give them a capstone so awesome you want to hit level 20 ASAP. That or what Grod_The_Giant suggested. Personally, I like the Monk and the Paladin (and many of their fixes) a great deal, and think that the limitation on multiclassing makes for stronger role playing, but that's just me. Sorry if that's not very helpful.

I'd suggest a casting penalty for multiclassing, but that's crude, even I don't like it, no matter how effective it would be. Perhaps if the penalty for multiclassing with a caster wore off as you gained levels, making continued multiclass levels in both caster and this a more desirable thing? That's slightly more elegant, but still not a brilliant idea.

Hope this helps.

[togapika]

Just make the max bonus based on your levels in the class...

[Ziegander]

Maybe make them gain abilities slowly over the course of the class, and give them a capstone so awesome you want to hit level 20 ASAP.

Just make the max bonus based on your levels in the class...

The problem with both of these approaches is that then the class would not be an effective warrior at 1st level. It would suck at what it's supposed to do for several levels. Suck now, rock later is not good design.

It's depressing that this is such a difficult undertaking.

I like to look at the ability scores in the following dichotomy:

Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution are the physical scores. Strength represents raw physical power, Dexterity represents physical reactivity and adaptability, Constitution represents overall physical health and wholeness.

Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma are the mental scores. Intelligence represents raw mental power, Wisdom represents mental reactivity and adaptability, Charisma represents overall mental health and wholeness.

So, ideally the class would be able to employ its mental power, mental reactivity and adaptability, and mental health and wholeness in the physical field of battle. Simply saying, "replace Int for attack and damage rolls, Wis for AC, Reflex, and Initiative, and Cha for hit points and Fort saves," causes issues.

[togapika]

Then make it stat bonus with a minus 1 penalty for each class level not in this class with an ability later that removes the penalty at like 5th level or something

[Ziegander]

Then make it stat bonus with a minus 1 penalty for each class level not in this class with an ability later that removes the penalty at like 5th level or something

A better solution but still something I'd rather avoid. It's just a multiclass penalty in disguise. I don't like multiclass penalties.

What about the following:

Advanced Weapon Proficiency (Ex): A Grandmaster takes the study of his weapons very seriously, and by employing his superior intellect is better able to understand their complexities in both theory and practice than his muscle-bound contemporaries.

After spending 24 hours in practice with a weapon for which he has proficiency, a Grandmaster adds his Intelligence bonus to attack and damage rolls with that weapon. These hours in practice must be split into sessions of no less than 1 hour per day but no more than 8 hours per day, and must be taken at least every other day.

A Grandmaster may boast advanced weapon proficiency with a number of different weapons up to his Wisdom modifier. A Grandmaster may begin play with advanced weapon proficiency in as many weapons. Advanced weapon proficiency may be used in place of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to qualify for class features, feats, or prestige classes.

Does that look too dip friendly? I tried to make it both sensible and functional.

[Noctis Vigil]

If I might make a suggestion: start by making the class up. Don't worry about dipability until you have a rough outline of exactly what you want (perhaps a simple table with ideas of what he gets each level). Once you have the outline, then worry about dipability. Let's face it: the idea as proposed will be almost impossible to make not insanely dipable without making a bad class. Monk (and every remake I ever saw of it) is extremely dipable, but is still a viable class, because it's based off a good idea. This is based off a good idea as well, so just make it to start with and work it a little to fix dipability later (although I don't see any way to make it undesirable to caster, in all honesty).

Might I ask what the original inspiration for this class was?

[Ziegander]

(although I don't see any way to make it undesirable to caster, in all honesty).

Well, my hope with the Advanced Weapon Proficiency feature was that restricting it to weapons-only made it undesirable to a caster. It also seems to discourage a dip from traditional melee classes since it requires a score of 12 in both Int and Wis to have any effect.

Might I ask what the original inspiration for this class was?

I was inspired by Demidos' class, which made me think of the media mainstay of the old man weaponmaster. Guys like Nick Fury or Deathstroke who, while in prime physical condition themselves, can beat up dudes with hulk strength, super-speed, and stone skin because they are smarter not stronger, more cunning than quick, and more tenacious than tough.

[Noctis Vigil]

The biggest problem with that is that it requires two "main" stats. This is far less an issue than some alternatives, though it would keep me from taking the class personally (I like classes that let me bloat one stat). Personally, I like the idea of making the class just shift the stats as you stated and limiting the multiclassing like Grod suggested. Yes, that makes it dipable, but if you can never go get more out of it if you leave, you just add really good stuff later to entice them to stay or miss out on.

Monk gives you Wis to AC at level 1; I suspect this would do the same if you follow the guidelines you lay out. Perhaps to avoid dipability there, make it so you no longer get AC from Dex at all? Just a thought, no idea how it would work.

A suggestion for later levels: reward your character for sticking with the class by letting them change the relevant stat on some physical skills, like making Jump work off Int (you can perfectly intuit your jump trajectory to get more out of it), or Balance work of Wis (he can react to changes in his balance on instinct). This fits the theme you're going for, and is a huge perk to make them stay in the class longer.

[togapika]

If they get wis to AC, make sure and mention it doesn't stack with the same ability from another class (Monk, Ninja, etc..)

[Ziegander]

I've decided to go with Noctis Vigil's initial suggestion and just start making the class. I've added what progress I've made so far to my original post. Please critique.

[Noctis Vigil]

Begging your pardon, but I would not play that as is. Ever. He appears to be trying to be a skill monkey, which means he'll need high Int. The Advanced Proficiency ability requires Int too, and the ability to use Wis instead of Dex will mean he needs high Wis to get the most out of Improved Uncanny Dodge and Advanced Proficiency. Instinctive Avoidance and Unyielding Confidence will absolutely require rolling an 18 to start with in Cha or the class is useless with the penalties those give, and honestly, the penalties are high enough to keep me from wanting to use it anyways. This means you have to have 3 really good stats to make this class viable; a warrior/melee class should not need three stats just to overcome penalties slapped on as class features. I see what you're doing, trying to counter-balance the class to make it not front loaded, but those penalties are just too much.

Seriously, think about at level one: if he has 10HP (assuming +2 Cha mod, or average to high Cha), one or two hits will make him run away from combat, and since the roll is a flat Cha check and not a save, he gets no bonuses to it other than his Cha mod. This means that in a battle balanced to party level (again, assuming +2 Cha mod here) you'd need to roll a 9 to stay fighting. That's an almost 1-in-2 chance to flee at level 1, and it stays that way for a while (until you get higher Cha via level ups or items). He'll also need high Wis for the Will saves early on, since he suffers twice as long from mind altering effects.

This class has a lot of potential, but those penalties undermine the foundation of the class entirely, making it too shaky to build off. His high level abilities would have to be amazing to justify the penalties, or be about par with other warrior classes and remove the penalties.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's how I see it. Hope it helps.

[Hanuman]

Sounds like you want to play a monk with the wis for melee feat.

[Ziegander]

I see what you're doing, trying to counter-balance the class to make it not front loaded, but those penalties are just too much.

Toned the penalties down some. It is now a Will save to resist Instinctive Avoidance and Frightened is reduced to Shaken. I also removed the "cannot benefit from morale bonuses" clause.

Right now it doesn't DO anything other than fight almost as well as a Warrior NPC with an extra good save and better skills. Adding maneuvers to it is the easy way out, but adding a subsystem to it to give it better combat options and more interesting gameplay is something I've been thinking on. I want something that reflects his mental fighting style. I want the class to be mundane, so spellcasting is out of the question.

[Hanuman]

Toned the penalties down some. It is now a Will save to resist Instinctive Avoidance and Frightened is reduced to Shaken. I also removed the "cannot benefit from morale bonuses" clause.

Right now it doesn't DO anything other than fight almost as well as a Warrior NPC with an extra good save and better skills. Adding maneuvers to it is the easy way out, but adding a subsystem to it to give it better combat options and more interesting gameplay is something I've been thinking on. I want something that reflects his mental fighting style. I want the class to be mundane, so spellcasting is out of the question.

Ohhh mundane, ok then try using a sense motive check so gain an insight bonus to AC vs that enemy.
Othwise, all fighters do this, its just represented by leveling up-- but you wanted something for purely mechanical reasons? Or what? ToB has many options, but blade magic isnt mundane enough i gather... still theres class features as example flavor.

[Noctis Vigil]

Hmm. Y'know, the more I look at it, the more it looks like an alternate class feature that would take the place of a Fighter's first level bonus feat, or as three feats (one for each stat shifted).

I would flat out remove the penalty for low HP. It's a terrible idea for a class aimed at melee combat to any serious degree. The penalty for mind altering affects...it's crude, but I guess it works, and I suppose you do need something to make this less dip-friendly.

My best suggestion would be to make him a skill monkey: raise the skillpoints per level, give him bonuses to skills, my earlier suggestion about shifting skill stat derivation.

Your current issue is that you're focusing too much on multiclassing potential, which only makes the class feel like an extension you plan to be tacked on to something else eventually.

[Yitzi]

The real problem with being dip-worthy is that there are so many classes that already have pieces of this that you're going to want to dip...unless it doesn't stack. So here's my idea (which draws on some of what you've done so far, but isn't really a modification of it, more a different answer to the original question; it also draws heavy inspiration from the duelist, monk, and swashbuckler):
-He gets AC bonus from WIS and level as monk. It does not stack. He may also use his WIS bonus instead of his DEX bonus to AC.
-He gets AC bonus from INT as a duelist of 7 levels lower, as well as Elaborate Parry (fixed to allow for Combat Expertise as well) at level 14. It does not stack.
-Since he's a high-INT fighter anyway, let's give him a boost to those feats that need INT and no physical abilities. So give him X2 to his AC bonus from Combat Expertise (and fighting defensively/total defense while we're at it), cut the time to feint (move action without Improved Feint, swift action with), and of course make Bluff a class skill, and give him +1/4 his level to disarm checks. These don't all have to come in at the beginning; I'd say the Combat Expertise boost can be at level 2, and the feint at level 5.
-WIS to init (instead of DEX) makes a lot of sense as well; this can come in at level 6.
-His to-hit should be helped by feinting, but he still needs a lot of help (especially since he's going to want to use Combat Expertise). So give him the ability to use his INT bonus instead of his DEX bonus for to-hit, and weapon finesse as a bonus feat.
-Of course, without STR to damage he's hurting there, especially since he can't use 2-handed weapons. We want to give him INT to damage as Swashbuckler level 3 has; again, it doesn't stack. Also make him not get STR to damage. He could still use a bit extra at higher levels, so since he's got good feinting anyway, let's give him a weak sneak attack (probably 1d6 at 6th level and another 1d6 every 3 levels after that.)
-He also needs good hit points; CHA to hit points is definitely the way to go here. Make it in addition to CON, as he's already got 2 dump stats.
-A bonus fighter feat every 4 levels looks nice too; let's start it at level 3 so it doesn't come with the disarm bonus. Make him count as a fighter of his class level for purposes of feat prerequisites, and this does stack.
-Mobility also seems good for him, so give him the ability (starting at 3rd level) to use WIS instead of DEX to qualify for Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, and +10 to speed (as a monk) at level 5 and +10 more every 4 levels after.
-The only dead level left is 18; the ability to give up a sneak attack damage die to do 1 damage to a physical ability of one's choice (maximum 2 to each score per attack) seems good here.

So looking at his abilities so far:
-AC: Very ability-score focused, but with a high WIS he can get decent levels, and at higher levels his INT bonus feeds into it too. He'll also be getting Combat Expertise, so that'll help too. At high levels, he gets Elaborate Parry and you'd better be using spells or ranged attacks if you hope to hit him.
-Hit points: CHA feeds his hit points, and he'll want decent CHA to pump his feints as well, plus he can get a bit of CON, so give him a d8 and he should be good.
-Attacks: Full BAB against flatfooted AC should mean he does ok even with combat expertise.
-Damage: INT to damage will make him decent at low levels, and at higher levels he'll be using sneak attack for more boosts. There's no way he'll be matching a shock trooper build or barbarian, but he's going to have higher AC than them. He can also disarm, in which case damage doesn't matter. (He will be weak against creatures immune to critical hits, though, unless they depend on weapons.)

We're almost done; we just have to choose the chassis and skills.

Let's give him a d8, weak Fort save and strong Reflex and Will, and full-BAB.

For skills, we want a high focus on the mental stats. So let's give him 4+INT, and the skill list can be all knowledges, bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, listen, spot, tumble, and UMD.

So the class would look as follows (I've also given CHA to a few other specific saves along with HP, and made it not work when unconscious):

Spoiler

Show

Hit die: d8

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|AC bonus

1st|

+1

|

+0

|

+2

|

+2

|Weapon Finesse, Clever Aim, Insightful Strike, Determination|+0

2nd|

+2

|

+0

|

+3

|

+3

|Improved Defensive Fighting|+0

3rd|

+3

|

+1

|

+3

|

+3

|Bonus Feat|+0

4th|

+4

|

+1

|

+4

|

+4

|Skilled Disarm +1|+0

5th|

+5

|

+1

|

+4

|

+4

|Quick Feint, Fast Movement +10|+1

6th|

+6/1

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|Forewarning, Sneak attack +1d6|+1

7th|

+7/2

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|Bonus Feat|+1

8th|

+8/3

|

+2

|

+6

|

+6

|Skilled Disarm +2, Canny Defense|+1

9th|

+9/4

|

+3

|

+6

|

+6

|Sneak attack +2d6, Fast Movement +20|+1

10th|

+10/5

|

+3

|

+7

|

+7

||+2

11th|

+11/6/1

|

+3

|

+7

|

+7

|Bonus Feat|+2

12th|

+12/7/2

|

+3

|

+8

|

+8

|Skilled Disarm +3, Sneak attack +3d6|+2

13th|

+13/8/3

|

+4

|

+8

|

+8

|Fast Movement +30| +2

14th|

+14/9/4

|

+4

|

+9

|

+9

|Elaborate Parry|+2

15th|

+15/10/5

|

+4

|

+9

|

+9

|Bonus Feat, Sneak attack +4d6|+3

16th|

+16/11/6/1

|

+5

|

+10

|

+10

|Skilled Disarm +4| +3

17th|

+17/12/7/2

|

+5

|

+10

|

+10

|Fast Movement +40| +3

18th|

+18/13/8/3

|

+6

|

+11

|

+11

|Sneak attack +5d6, Crippling Strike|+3

19th|

+19/14/9/4

|

+6

|

+11

|

+11

|Bonus Feat|+3

20th|

+20/15/10/5

|

+6

|

+12

|

+12

|Skilled Disarm +5| +4[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Grandmasters are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, but not with any armor or shields.

Weapon Finesse (Ex):
A Grandmaster gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at first level.

Clever Aim (Ex):
Whenever a Grandmaster would be entitled to add his Dexterity bonus to his attack roll, he may add his Intelligence bonus instead.

Insightful Strike (Ex):
When a Grandmaster uses his Weapon Finesse ability, he may use his Intelligence bonus instead of his Strength bonus to determine damage.

This ability does not stack with the similar Swashbuckler ability of the same name, but a character who has both abilities may choose which version to use.

Determination (Ex):
A Grandmaster may add his Charisma bonus to his hit points gained per level, as well as to Fortitude saves to resist death (whether from physical or magical means) and Will saves against fear.

A Grandmaster loses the benefit of this ability when unconscious.

AC Bonus (Ex):
When unarmored and unencumbered, the Grandmaster adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC. In addition, a grandmaster gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five grandmaster levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the grandmaster is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. These bonuses do not stack with the identical monk ability.

A grandmaster may also choose to use his Wisdom bonus instead of his Dexterity bonus when determining AC; this stacks with the first Wisdom bonus.

Improved Defensive Fighting (Ex):
At 2nd level or higher, when unarmored and unencumbered, a grandmaster gains double the normal bonus to AC from the Combat Expertise feat and from fighting defensively or using total defense.

This ability stacks with the bonus granted by possessing 5 ranks in Tumble, for a total of 150% increase to the bonus gained from fighting defensively or using total defense.

Bonus Feats:
At 3rd level, and every 4 grandmaster levels thereafter, a grandmaster gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to any that would normally be gained. These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A grandmaster must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums, except as noted below.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A grandmaster is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

In addition, a grandmaster of at least 3rd level may use his Wisdom score instead of his Dexterity score to qualify for the Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack feats, and may treat his Grandmaster levels as Fighter levels in order to qualify for feats. These substitutions may be used for bonus feats or the feats gained by any character from advancing levels.

Skilled Disarm:
A grandmaster is particularly adept at disarming others of their weapons. Beginning at 4th level, he gains a +1 bonus on all attack rolls to disarm an enemy. This bonus increases by +1 every 4 levels afterward.

Quick Feint (Ex):
At 5th level, a grandmaster gains the ability to feint as a move action. If he already has, or subsequently gains, the Improved Feint feat, he gains the ability to feint as a swift action.

Fast Movement (Ex):
At 5rd level, a grandmaster gains an enhancement bonus of +10 ft. to his speed, and another +10 every 4 levels afterward. A grandmaster in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Forewarning (Ex):
At 6th level, a grandmaster's senses give him forewarning of upcoming danger. He may use his Wisdom bonus instead of his Dexterity bonus when determining initiative.

Sneak Attack:
This ability, gained at 6th level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 6th. If a grandmaster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Canny Defense (Ex):
When not wearing armor or using a shield, a grandmaster adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per grandmaster class level over 7th to his Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a grandmaster is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus.

This ability does not stack with the identical Duelist ability.

Elaborate Parry (Ex):
At 14th level and higher, if a grandmaster chooses to fight defensively, use total defense, or use Combat Expertise with at least a +4 penalty in melee combat, he gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC for each level of duelist he has over 7th.

Crippling Strike:
At 18th level, a grandmaster's attack can weaken his enemy. Whenever he is entitled to a sneak attack, he may give up bonus damage dice in order to do 1 ability damage to his target for each die of damage he gives up. This ability damage may be done to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, at the grandmaster's choice. Only 2 damage may be done to a given ability score per attack.

That look anything like what you're looking for?

[Demidos]

Have to say, its a bit amusing that you were inspired by one class i homebrewed and used the name i used for the other one i made

That said, let me see....you should say that the Int/wis/Cha replace the physical stats rather than add to them, otherwise you could be quite the tank...hmm...I would use much of what Yitzi (above) suggested, but Yitzi's build seems a bit...too common? It uses different stats in the same way. His different-ness for using mental scores should be emphasized. I like the disarm focus -That seems pretty old-superhero/mentor in disguise. I would extend that to bonuses to trip (though maybe not sunder). I would also give MS and Hide as class skills, as this class seems to be trying to be agile (which always makes me think sneaky.)

I dont know the people you referenced (Nick fury, death stroke) but i'll check them out for ideas if i get the time

Otherwise, looking good!

PS Are you keeping this strictly non-supernatural?

[Yitzi]

but Yitzi's build seems a bit...too common? It uses different stats in the same way. His different-ness for using mental scores should be emphasized.

Except when you get down to it, there are only so many things it makes sense to do, no matter what you're using. His different-ness for using mental scores will be emphasized not in the actual abilities, but rather in what tactics they support him as having. So he's using feints, disarms, and so on, with a strong defensive focus, a focus on mobility (he's no monk, but pretty good), and a tendency to use skills as well as combat.

Nothing in there is all that revolutionary or original, but the net result is that of the clever and strong-minded individual who uses his wits in physical combat.

I would extend that to bonuses to trip (though maybe not sunder).

It's a possibility, but that would also require giving him the ability to use a mental stat (probably INT) instead of STR to trip, and that just seems to be too much.

Remember, he's not particularly strong. There's no way he's going to be moving something heavy (like an equally-sized person) that doesn't want to be moved.

I would also give MS and Hide as class skills, as this class seems to be trying to be agile (which always makes me think sneaky.)

The reason for the apparent connection is that they both build off DEX. But this is not a DEX-heavy class, so there really isn't any reason for him to be a sneak.


Part of my idea behind the class is that he really isn't just a warrior. That's his major focus, of course, but he can also serve very well as the party encyclopedia, the party face, or the UMD user (or maybe even all three). He's actually designed to be a slightly weaker warrior than a "traditional" one (well, at least the more effective of those), but also be able to take other roles to some degree.

[gkathellar]

It's a possibility, but that would also require giving him the ability to use a mental stat (probably INT) instead of STR to trip, and that just seems to be too much.

Factotum already does that. Nothing revolutionary there.

Remember, he's not particularly strong. There's no way he's going to be moving something heavy (like an equally-sized person) that doesn't want to be moved.

Whole families of martial arts beg to disagree with you.

[Yitzi]

Factotum already does that. Nothing revolutionary there.



Whole families of martial arts beg to disagree with you.

Ok, point. So I suppose INT-based tripping does make sense. It still doesn't feel like something appropriate for the class the way Disarm does, and we don't want to make him too powerful, so I'd still leave it out. Two moderately effective attack approaches (disarm and feint-sneak-attack) and a powerful defense should be enough. (If you do want to add it, though, I'd say add the INT-for-STR replacement at level 10, make it unusable when the defender gets a bonus to their roll for stability and gets their DEX bonus against you, and give a +4 bonus when tripping an enemy denied his DEX bonus against you.)

As a side note, note that this class will greatly appreciate the spiked chain, not so much for the reach as for the ability to use Weapon Finesse with a 2-handed weapon (and then another bonus to disarm on top of that.)

[Realms of Chaos]

The big problem with this concept, as it occurs to me, isn't so much about making your mental ability scores good at a fight so much as it is about making the other abilities totally worthless.

Seriously, a character with this class doesn't really need Str or Dex or Con for anything other than skill checks (and carrying capacity for Str). Lower these ability scores to 1 and you might not even notice. Even a wizard, the King of SAD, can suffer from incredibly damaged non-Int ability scores or benefit from magically increased ability scores. This class gains no benefit whatsoever from increasing any of those three abilities above 8 during character creation and few other base classes in all of existance can even say that about two ability scores (even among those prized for their SAD-ness).

What I'd suggest doing, taking a different approach, would be to overcome need for physical ability scores in a similar way that to the Wizard. I believe that you have a fighter magic system laying around with strategems from 1st to 9th level waiting to finally find use. Tie the use of these abilities to your mental ability scores and you're work is basically done. While benefits would still remain from having high physical ability scores, they would be outweighed by the power of high mental ability scores.

[Yitzi]

The big problem with this concept, as it occurs to me, isn't so much about making your mental ability scores good at a fight so much as it is about making the other abilities totally worthless.

Seriously, a character with this class doesn't really need Str or Dex or Con for anything other than skill checks (and carrying capacity for Str). Lower these ability scores to 1 and you might not even notice. Even a wizard, the King of SAD, can suffer from incredibly damaged non-Int ability scores or benefit from magically increased ability scores. This class gains no benefit whatsoever from increasing any of those three abilities above 8 during character creation and few other base classes in all of existance can even say that about two ability scores (even among those prized for their SAD-ness).

What I'd suggest doing, taking a different approach, would be to overcome need for physical ability scores in a similar way that to the Wizard. I believe that you have a fighter magic system laying around with strategems from 1st to 9th level waiting to finally find use. Tie the use of these abilities to your mental ability scores and you're work is basically done. While benefits would still remain from having high physical ability scores, they would be outweighed by the power of high mental ability scores.

While that is definitely an approach, its big problem is that it just turns fighter-types into another sort of wizard, which breaks the fundamental difference in playstyle that makes it so interesting to play different classes.

But yes, I did make those abilities pretty much useless (not totally, as DEX is still used for Reflex and is a prerequisite for a few feats he might want to grab, STR is also somewhat of a prerequisite and is good for resisting grapples, and CON as well as CHA adds to hit points and Fort saves), largely as that's what the OP seemed to be asking for. Standard fighters have next to no use for INT, WIS, and DEX, this has next to no use for STR, DEX, and (to a lesser degree) CON.