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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulcynic View Post
    My apologies for my answer being so wordy, I agree with you that nothing will equal a Wizard, which you are defining as quintessential T1. The point that I made is that a T2 that gets a little more diversity isn't exactly a T2 any longer, and so I'm rounding fractions *up*. And so a Sorc/War is greater than just a Sorc in versatility (remember that the Tier system isn't about raw power, its about over-all contribution, with effectiveness being a factor). And so he is now "one tier higher" which happens to be T1.
    Except that the difference in versatility isn't enough to actually elevate them. What YouLostMe is saying is that the difference in versatility between a Tier 1 and a Tier 2 is significant enough that you're going to need to staple on a lot more than just a Tier 6 in order to bridge that gap. Part of the reason for this is power: sure, adding warrior gives full BAB and better HD, but neither of those bonuses are actually significant additions. Not only do additions to a Tier 2 have to make them more versatile, their new options also have to keep up with (or get relatively close to) their old options in terms of power.

    This is why it seems to me that you would need to Gestalt a Tier 2 with a Tier 3-4 to get a Tier 1: classes of those Tiers would add versatility, while also bringing enough raw power to those new options to be a significant contribution. A Sorcerer//Warblade can keep up with a Druid, but a Sorcerer//Warrior isn't really any better at that than a straight Sorcerer.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    This is why it seems to me that you would need to Gestalt a Tier 2 with a Tier 3-4 to get a Tier 1: classes of those Tiers would add versatility, while also bringing enough raw power to those new options to be a significant contribution. A Sorcerer//Warblade can keep up with a Druid, but a Sorcerer//Warrior isn't really any better at that than a straight Sorcerer.
    I tend to agree with this. My catch all rule would be that Gestalting with any class of a lower tier than your first class moves you up a tier, and Gestalting with any class of the same tier as your first class moves you up two tiers. So 2+3=1, 3+3=1, 3+4=2, 2+4=1, 4+4=2, etc.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    I tend to agree with this. My catch all rule would be that Gestalting with any class of a lower tier than your first class moves you up a tier, and Gestalting with any class of the same tier as your first class moves you up two tiers. So 2+3=1, 3+3=1, 3+4=2, 2+4=1, 4+4=2, etc.
    I don't think two Tier 3s add up to a Tier 1, and I certainly don't think two Tier 4s add up to a Tier 2. None of the classes involved can throw enough raw power into the equation. I'd say it's more like what YouLostMe outlined:

    2+3 = 1
    3+3 = 2 (but not always, sometimes just really high 3)

    2+4 = 1 or 2, on a case by case basis
    3+4 = High 3 or low 2, depending
    4+4 = 3 (almost always)

    2+5 = 2
    3+5 = Higher 3
    4+5 = 3 or high 4
    5+5 = 4 or high 5

    2+6 = 2
    3+6 = 3, possibly higher 3
    4+6 = Higher 4, possibly with rare exceptions reaching 3
    5+6 = 4 or higher 5
    6+6 = 5 or 6, depending on the involved classes
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    T6 Rogue
    This is actually pretty good when you compare it to, say, an Expert. Sure, it doesn't get Iaijutsu Focus, but it still has Diplomancy, Use Magic Device, Tumble, Spot/Hide/Move Silently, and enough skill points to use them.

    I would think that a T6 Rogue might look more like this:

    d6 Hit Dice
    3/4 BAB
    Trapfinding 1st level
    +1d6 Sneak Attack on 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th level
    6+Int skill points
    Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

    It pretty much eliminates their social interaction ability, with skills focused only on stealth and trap-removing, and takes away the very good Use Magic Device skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    Lesser Cleric
    Hmm, interesting. If I wanted to make a weak healing Cleric, though, I might actually give it some of the Paladin's abilities rather than spellcasting. I'd think that Lay on Hands, Remove Disease, some Remove Poison and a Stone to Flesh/Break Enchantment abilities useable 1/day or so might fit the Cleric theme better than just Cure X Wounds multiple times per day.

    If we did want to keep the Cleric a spellcaster, how about Lay on Hands at first level, and then a few ward spells (Protection from Evil, Consecrate, Magic Circle against Evil, ???) as the few spells they have access to. That way, they'd still be able to heal and act "Clericy" without allowing the spells to overshadow others.

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    Hmm...

    Lesser Battle Cleric:
    d8 Hit Dice
    3/4 BAB
    All simple weapons, light and medium armor, shields (not tower shields)
    Lay on Hands at 1st level
    Remove Disease 1/week at 5th level, 2/week at 10th, 3/week at 15th, 4/week at 20th
    Neutralize Poison 1/day at 3rd level, 2/day at 8th, 3/day at 13th
    Break Enchantment 1/day at 10th level, 2/day at 20th

    I would really worry about this guy overshadowing the Warrior, though.

    Priestly Cleric:
    d4 Hit Dice
    1/2 BAB
    All simple weapons, light armor, no shields
    Same restriction as Druid/Healer in no metal armor
    Lay on Hands at 1st level
    "Aligns" to an alignment, depending on deity
    Protection from [alignment] at 1st level, depending on alignment
    Consecrate/Desecrate at 4th level, depending on alignment
    Magic Circle against [alignment] at 9th level, depending on alignment
    Raise Dead at 14th level


    --

    As for the tier discussion, the difference between Tier 2 and Tier 1 is that they both have the same general abilities, but Tier 1 has the option to swap out their abilities for any other abilities as they wish. A large enough collection of T2 classes could equal T1 by simply having enough class abilities to cover everything - a Sorcerer//Favored Soul//Beguiler//Dread Necro//Binder might make it to T1 - but simply attaching full BAB won't do it.

    Tier 2 is distinct from Tier 3 due to having a lot more variety. Gestalting all the T3 classes together might get you a T2 class, but simply giving a T3 the abilities of a single other class are unlikely to work. Perhaps an exception would be a T3//Factotum gestalt, due to Factotum granting extra actions for the other class to take advantage of.

    Tier 4 + Tier 4 = Tier 3 could work, because the limiting factor of T4 is their inability to do multiple things. Barbarian//Warlock would get you a flying, spellcasting melee class, while Rogue//Adept would have both skills and magic. Note, though, that is a pretty big "if", as T4 classes are commonly limited in what they can do in their own field.

    For lower tiers, it would probably be best to analyze the result to see how it pans out. Fighter//Expert would actually be rather good; Healer//Commoner would not be any better than the standard Healer.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    I wasn't suggesting that somehow adding a T3 and a T3 somehow gives you a creature that looks like a T1; I was suggesting that within this ruleset that was probably the best way to handle things. Even though Gestalting a T2 with a T6 might not really make much improvement for the T2, if it was "free", then everyone would do it, and things don't make much sense. I was just trying to balance the benefits of certain Gestalts with the costs imposed by Adjusted Tiering.

    You can do some very scary things with a double T3 for reference, especially when one them is a Sorcerer (what's up with that by the way?)

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    You can do some very scary things with a double T3 for reference, especially when one them is a Sorcerer (what's up with that by the way?)
    Sorcerer is Tier 2. Do you mean Wilder?
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    Sorcerer is Tier 2. Do you mean Wilder?
    Not according to the OP it isn't.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Not according to the OP it isn't.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulcynic View Post
    1. Select a Class:
    Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Wizard
    Tier 2: Paladin, Summoner, Witch
    Tier 3: Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Ninja, Oracle, Ranger, Sorcerer
    Tier 4: Alchemist, Barbarian, Cavalier, Rogue, Samurai
    Tier 5: Adept, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk
    Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior
    That's, uh... huh.

    Did pathfinder do something very, very bizarre that the Paladin is now equal to a spontaneously casting Cleric, while the Sorcerer lost virtually all its versatility? Because this is a very unusual list.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnno View Post
    Not according to the OP it isn't.
    Huhwhuh? Sorcerer is practically the definition of Tier 2.

    EDIT: Yeah, I missed the OP's list. Which is insane. PF Paladins are T3-4, the Witch might hit T1, and Oracle and Sorcerer are both T2. So yeah, what?
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-10-13 at 02:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    [Lurked through the first page]
    Quick tier definitions, correct me if they are wrong (I can't get acess to the originals).
    1: Gamebreaking power, lots of versitility
    2: Gamebreaking power, not really versitile
    3: Great at one thing with alternatives if that one thing doesn't work
    4: Either great at one thing and meh at others, or ok at a few things.
    5: don't remember, will find it
    6: see five

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    How about this: We take the tiers and invert them (Tier 1 becomes tier 6, tier 2 becomes tier 5, etc.) subtract 1 (tier 6 becomes tier 5, 5->4, 4->3, 3->2, 2->1, and 1 becomes .5 for future calculations).

    Adding a gestalt adds half of the lower class' tier value to the higher class' value.

    Tier 3 (originally tier 3) + 4 tier .5's (originally tier 6) becomes a tier 4 (originally tier 2). It's not a perfect system, but it could work.

    Edit: A good thing about this is that you could go higher than 5 for truly silly levels of power. Wizard + Cleric + Druid? 5 + 2.5 + 2.5 for a total of 10. The only thing keeping him from completely wrecking every encounter in 1 turn is a lack of actions.
    Last edited by Pie Guy; 2011-10-13 at 05:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    The first problem is that there are only four T6 classes.

    The second problem is that a Warblade // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner is not a T2, and doesn't even gain much of anything to distinguish it much from the basic Warblade. Heck, even a Fighter // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner would still be a T5 class.

    This isn't going to work if the end product doesn't come out right. I mean, by your math, a Fighter // Monk // CA Ninja // Healer // Swashbuckler // Rokugan Ninja // Soulknife // Expert // OA Samurai // Paladin // Knight // CW Samurai // Aristocrat // Warrior // Commoner (gestalting all the T5/T6 classes) is worth seven "points" and is roughly equal to a Wizard//Archivist. However, even a brief look at the classes tells us this isn't the case. Our mass T5/T6 gestalt is probably T4, and likely not even as good as a T3 class. It most certainly is not a T1 class, nor one with twice the abilities.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by erikun View Post
    The first problem is that there are only four T6 classes.

    The second problem is that a Warblade // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner is not a T2, and doesn't even gain much of anything to distinguish it much from the basic Warblade. Heck, even a Fighter // CW Samurai // Warrior // Aristocrat // Commoner would still be a T5 class.

    This isn't going to work if the end product doesn't come out right. I mean, by your math, a Fighter // Monk // CA Ninja // Healer // Swashbuckler // Rokugan Ninja // Soulknife // Expert // OA Samurai // Paladin // Knight // CW Samurai // Aristocrat // Warrior // Commoner (gestalting all the T5/T6 classes) is worth seven "points" and is roughly equal to a Wizard//Archivist. However, even a brief look at the classes tells us this isn't the case. Our mass T5/T6 gestalt is probably T4, and likely not even as good as a T3 class. It most certainly is not a T1 class, nor one with twice the abilities.
    I was going under the assumption that the T6 classes that were made here were in use, and that the classes picked wouldn't have too much overlap. Also, most DnD needs oversight by the DM, especially in extreme cases. Like most, it works best in the middle ranges, and perhaps only marginally well at all. I don't have a good eye for balance.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Did pathfinder do something very, very bizarre that the Paladin is now equal to a spontaneously casting Cleric, while the Sorcerer lost virtually all its versatility? Because this is a very unusual list.
    Copy/pasted from our group's custom tier list. Sorc is T2, it has been corrected in the OP :) Ty for pointing it out and my apologies for being lazy.

    However, Pathfinder's Paladin is much improved over 3.5, tremendously actually, and so he is a T2. The Witch is definitely a T1 class, we found that out in game play :) Corrected also. The Seer Archetype for the Oracle is extremely potent, I play one as my main toon, but over all the class is meh outside of those options. I'll do a little research in JaronK's post to see where he's placed it and update then.

    I'll happily update the effect that Gestalting has on Tier-placement when everyone comes to a solid consensus on how the various Tiers affect each other :) I find the discussion refreshing and intriguing.

    --PC
    Last edited by Paulcynic; 2011-10-13 at 08:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    All right, with some obvious assent by other brewers here, I'm going to try and convince you to go for a Tier change one last time, and then I'm out.

    The argument we're making is not that Sorc//War is less useful than just Sorc useful (it is--full bab on a caster is always nice), but that the equivalency you're establishing is wrong. You are offering T2//T6 and plain T1 classes the same point buy and same experience growth. While it's understandable that a nerf of some kind would be nice for a Sorc//War, it can't be the same nerf that you're putting on the wizard.

    The system as it is rips your players off by creating trap options. That's cruel.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Tweaked my two that I posted and renamed them accordingly. For the Pickpocket, I dropped the sneak attack to every 5th level instead of every 4th, gave them trapfinding at 2nd level, cut out a bunch of the skills I felt didn't fit the class, and cut the skillpoints to 4+Int mod per level. This will be my standard for viable T6 melee PC classes from now on. No real changes made to the Church Goer other than name; I kind of see him as the guy who goes to church on Sunday and is a little more devout than the average guy, but not as much as a Cleric.

    I want to make at least a half dozen of these, because this inspired me for a great campaign:

    You've served all your life. The Paladin's squire; a member of the congregation at church; a farmer who relies on the Druid's help; the lad who carries the Bard's harp. BUT NO MORE! Evil threatens the world. It needs a hero, a hero of the unlikeliest kind. This is the time for a new here. This is your time to be a hero.

    Currently working on: T6 Paladin, T6 Barbarian, T6 Monk, T6 Ranger/Scout, T6 blaster caster (I will do my damnedest on this one, no promises). Will post them as I write them.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Household Servant
    {table]level|fort|ref|wis|bab|special
    1|0|2|0|0|household knowledge
    2|0|3|0|1|is the master angry?
    3|1|3|1|1|hardly know they're there
    4|1|4|1|2|your servant, sir
    5|1|4|1|2|
    6|2|5|2|3|dodge the crockery
    7|2|5|2|3|
    8|2|6|2|4|I've seen worse
    9|3|6|3|4|
    10|3|7|3|5|empty the chamberpot
    11|3|7|3|5|
    12|4|8|4|6|
    13|4|8|4|6|hop to it
    14|4|9|4|7|
    15|5|9|5|7|
    16|5|10|5|8|catch the crockery
    17|5|10|5|8|
    18|6|11|6|9|
    19|6|11|6|9|
    20|6|12|6|10|patience of a saint[/table]
    Hit die: d6
    Skill points 4+int
    Skill list: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Hide, Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spot
    Weapon Proficiencies: club and quarterstaff

    household knowledge -- add your class level to all knowledge checks about your current or former employers

    is the master angry? -- you may make a sense motive check regarding a humanoid's emotional state based on a quick glimpse or the sound of their footsteps at no penalty

    hardly know they're there -- add your class level to hide and move silently checks while performing situation-appropriate domestic tasks

    your servant, sir -- add your class level to bluff and disguise checks to imitate a menial servant (of any employer you choose)

    dodge the crockery --+2 bonus to AC or reflex saves against improvised thrown weaponry

    I've seen worse -- +2 bonus to will saves against fear, pain or disgust

    empty the chamberpot -- +2 bonus to fort saves against poison or disease

    hop to it -- You may double your speed for up to ten minutes once a day. While in this state, you take no penalty for moving silently at full speed. Once you are done, you are exhausted until you rest. You cannot do this if you are already exhausted.

    catch the crockery -- Once per round, you may catch an improvised thrown weapon aimed within 10 feet of yourself. Make a reflex save opposed by the attack role. If you succeed, neither you nor the item takes damage.

    patience of a saint -- You made it all the way to level 20 in this class? You have the patience of something. Gain the saint template, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.
    Last edited by dspeyer; 2011-10-13 at 10:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    I would have to say that the Saint template probably lands that in tier 5, though it may not. It's a good class, either way. Congratulations, you get the Crazy Person Stamp of ApprovalTM!

    In other news, lookie! A T6 Monk! It took a long time to get him to feel right, but I like the final result a great deal.

    Martial Initiate
    Spoiler
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    {TABLE]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
    1|
    +0
    |+0|+2|+0|Improved Unarmed Strike
    2|
    +1
    |+0|+3|+0|Wis Mod to AC
    3|
    +2
    |+1|+3|+1|
    4|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|Unarmored AC Bonus +1
    5|
    +3
    |+1|+4|+1|
    6|
    +4
    |+2|+5|+2|Speed Boost +10 Feet
    7|
    +5
    |+2|+5|+2|Unarmed Damage Bonus +2
    8|
    +6/+1
    |+2|+6|+2|
    9|
    +6/+1
    |+3|+6|+3|Unarmored AC Bonus +2
    10|
    +7/+2
    |+3|+7|+3|
    11|
    +8/+3
    |+3|+7|+3|
    12|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|Speed Boost +20 Feet
    13|
    +9/+4
    |+4|+8|+4|Unarmed Damage Bonus +4
    14|
    +10/+5
    |+4|+9|+4|Unarmored AC Bonus +3
    15|
    +11/+6/+1
    |+5|+9|+5|
    16|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+5|+10|+5|
    17|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+5|+10|+5|
    18|
    +13/+8/+3
    |+6|+11|+6|Speed Boost +30 Feet
    19|
    +14/+9/+4
    |+6|+11|+6|Unarmored AC Bonus +4
    20|
    +15/+10/+5
    |+6|+12|+6|Unarmed Damage Bonus +6[/TABLE]
    Hit Die: D6
    Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
    Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex)

    Proficiencies: Martial Initiates are proficient with the quarterstaff, the nunchaku and the kama. They gain no proficiencies in any armor or shields.

    Improved Unarmed Strike: A Martial Initiate gains this as a bonus feat at second level.

    Wisdom Modifier to AC: A Martial Initiate gains his Wis mod as a bonus to his AC while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

    Unarmored AC Bonus: A Martial Initiate gains a bonus to his AC as listed at the appropriate level while wearing no armor and carrying a light load. This bonus applies even if the Martial Initiate is flat footed or is subject to a touch attack. If he wears armor, carries a medium or heavy load, or is helpless, he does not gain this bonus.

    Unarmed Damage Bonus: While fighting unarmed, a Martial Initiate deals extra damage as shown on the list at the appropriate levels.

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Tweaked my two that I posted and renamed them accordingly
    Looks great now :) One of my players liked this one quite a bit and drew up a Fighter/Pickpocket. He's at his laptop atm writing up an inspired backstory, so ty for the contribution :)

    Household Servant
    Lul! One of these, with a Red Tape Official, a Rainbow Hypnotist, and a Pick Pocket would be the most awesomest Castle/Villiage Sitcom evar!

    You've served all your life. The Paladin's squire; a member of the congregation at church; a farmer who relies on the Druid's help; the lad who carries the Bard's harp. BUT NO MORE! Evil threatens the world. It needs a hero, a hero of the unlikeliest kind. This is the time for a new here. This is your time to be a hero.
    Love it :)

    All right, with some obvious assent by other brewers here, I'm going to try and convince you to go for a Tier change one last time, and then I'm out.
    No need, I haven't refused, only discussed why my system exists in its current state. I was reading and taking in your critiques, and was pointing out that your alternative didn't deal with the issue of "free Gestalting," which DeAnno pointed out here:
    Even though Gestalting a T2 with a T6 might not really make much improvement for the T2, if it was "free", then everyone would do it, and things don't make much sense. I was just trying to balance the benefits of certain Gestalts with the costs imposed by Adjusted Tiering.
    ...such as a Sorc being T2, and then a Sorc/Warrior also being T2. That needs to be addressed somehow. I do not appreciate over-inflated emotional hyperbole, especially after my last sentence in my last post lul.

    I said:
    I'll happily update the effect that Gestalting has on Tier-placement when everyone comes to a solid consensus on how the various Tiers affect each other :) I find the discussion refreshing and intriguing.
    The system as it is rips your players off by creating trap options. That's cruel.
    No, because my players are not idiots. They wouldn't choose to Gestalt unless it proved beneficial, even under the rules as written. But I do appreciate your concern. But I also agree that these traps exist regardless of Gestalt. There are many poor class-options that optimizers can easily side step; Gestalting merely amplifies these pit-falls.

    So lets get back on topic and come up with a more effective Gestalt Teir-advancement, as we've been doing through discussion :) And lets keep making these awesome T6s!

    --PC
    Last edited by Paulcynic; 2011-10-13 at 11:46 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    I'm honored he used my class! Please let me know how it works in play; only one of my classes actually has playtest time under its belt (Master of the Heavens, a very martial somewhat Druidic spontaneous caster based of different aspects found in outer space (will post it later, it's awesome)), and I really want my classes to see lots of use!

    Still grinding away at the T6 Palading at the moment...

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mystic Muse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulcynic View Post

    However, Pathfinder's Paladin is much improved over 3.5, tremendously actually, and so he is a T2.
    He might be tremendously improved, but that doesn't make him a Tier 2. It's still a tier 4, maybe low tier 3.
    Mystic Unity by DirtyTabs

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    ...yeah, I'm basically gonna use you as my example to explain how White, as a color of magic, can represent pure evil. =P
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Paulcynic's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Hunted around the interwebs, seems high T4 low T3 is consensus. Fair enough, though in game play he's an exceptional striker/tank, so much that ppl are grumbling
    Having said that, fighting evil is something paladins do very well in PF (though I personally think it's "too well").
    I didn't make the tier system, and have no emotional attachment to the 'official' listing :) So ty for the feedback, OP has been corrected, placing him in T3 not only for his effectiveness, but the fact that he can also heal, and has decent (if focused) knowledge skills, and is a superior Diplomat due to his stat-priorities. That's a triple threat, though nothing Game Breaking, as defines T2 and T1.

    EDIT: This also places the Summoner into T3, adjusted as well.

    --PC
    Last edited by Paulcynic; 2011-10-14 at 01:25 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Speaking of Paladin and Summoner:

    Holy Warrior
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Class Abilities
    1|
    +1
    |+2|+0|+0|Code of Conduct
    2|
    +2
    |+3|+0|+0|Detect Evil
    3|
    +3
    |+3|+1|+1|Smite Evil 1/Day
    4|
    +4
    |+4|+1|+1|
    5|
    +5
    |+4|+1|+1|
    6|
    +6/+1
    |+5|+2|+2|Lay On Hands
    7|
    +7/+2
    |+5|+2|+2|
    8|
    +8/+3
    |+6|+2|+2|Smite Evil 2/Day
    9|
    +9/+4
    |+6|+3|+3|
    10|
    +10/+5
    |+7|+3|+3|Divine Health
    11|
    +11/+6/+1
    |+7|+3|+3|
    12|
    +12/+7/+2
    |+8|+4|+4|
    13|
    +13/+8/+3
    |+8|+4|+4|Smite Evil 3/Day
    14|
    +14/+9/+4
    |+9|+4|+4|Divine Grace
    15|
    +15/+10/+5
    |+9|+5|+5|
    16|
    +16/+11/+6/+1
    |+10|+5|+5|
    17|
    +17/+12/+7/+2
    |+10|+5|+5|
    18|
    +18/+13/+8/+3
    |+11|+6|+6|Smite Evil 4/Day
    19|
    +19/+14/+9/+4
    |+11|+6|+6|
    20|
    +20/+15/+10/+5
    |+12|+6|+6|[/TABLE]
    Hit Die: D8
    Skill Points: 2 + Int mod per level
    Class Skills: Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

    Proficiencies: Holy Warriors are proficient with all simple weapons, the longsword and the lance. They are proficient with light armor and medium armor, and with light shields.

    Code of Conduct, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Lay On Hands, Divine Health, Divine Grace: As the Paladin abilities of the same name.


    Caller
    Spoiler
    Show
    {TABLE]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Spells Known|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
    1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Summon Monster I|0|-|-|-
    2|+1|+0|+0|+3||1|-|-|-
    3|+1|+1|+1|+3||1|-|-|-
    4|+2|+1|+1|+4||1|-|-|-
    5|+2|+1|+1|+4|Summon Monster II|2|0|-|-
    6|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
    7|+3|+2|+2|+5||2|1|-|-
    8|+4|+2|+2|+6||3|1|-|-
    9|+4|+3|+3|+6|Summon Monster III|3|2|0|-
    10|+5|+3|+3|+7||3|2|1|-
    11|+5|+3|+3|+7||4|2|1|-
    12|+6|+4|+4|+8||4|3|1|-
    13|+6|+4|+4|+8|Summon Monster IV|4|3|2|0
    14|+7|+4|+4|+9||4|3|2|1
    15|+7|+5|+5|+9||4|4|2|1
    16|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|1
    17|+8|+5|+5|+10||4|4|3|2
    18|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|3|2
    19|+9|+6|+6|+11||4|4|4|2
    20|+10|+6|+6|+12||4|4|4|3[/TABLE]
    Hit Dice: d4
    Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
    Class Skills: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Callers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a Caller’s gestures, which can cause their spells with somatic components to fail.

    Spells: A Caller is limited to what spells they can cast. Like a Sorcerer, they simply know their spells and do not need to prepare them ahead of time. Unlike a Sorcerer, they do not have a spell list to choose which spells to know; the spells they know are determined by their level.

    At 1st level, the Caller knows Summon Monster I as a first-level Caller spell. At 5th level, they know Summon Monster II as a second-level Caller spell. At 9th level, they know Summon Monster III as a third-level Caller spell. At 13th level, they know Summon Monster IV as a fourth-level Caller spell. They do not learn any other spells, and those four spells compose the class's full spell list.

    Callers are arcane spellcasters, and suffer Arcane Spell Failure when attempting to cast in armor.

    To cast a spell, a Caller must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Caller gains additional spells per day for high Intelligence; in spaces where it reads 0 spells per day of that level, they only have spells if they get bonus spells for high Intelligence.


    EDIT: for easy perusal, all my T6 classes are now on the first page in my first post in this thread.
    Last edited by Noctis Vigil; 2011-10-14 at 02:28 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    so take the factotum. and make him a "lucky" character. any int based ability is now based off of the number of luck feats he posses. is inspiration pool is also equal to the number of luck feats. make the spellcasting limited to just divination or just take it away entirely. get rid of the obviously awesome abilities like cunning surge and cunning dodge. all bad saves and be nice and say any 5 skills are his class skills. drop skill points to 2 and you have a useless character.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    The School Teacher

    HD: d6
    Alignment: any lawful
    Age: moderate
    Starting Gold: as wizard

    Class skills: all of them
    Skill points per level: 6 x Int mod (x 4 at 1st level)

    BaB: 1/2
    Good Save: none of them

    {table=head]Level | Special

    1 | Lecturing
    2 |
    3 | Linguistics
    4 |
    5 | Lecturing
    6 |
    7 |
    8 | Linguistics
    9 | Lecturing
    10 |
    11 | Book Expertise
    12 |
    13 | Lecturing
    14 | Linguistics
    15 |
    16 |
    17 | Lecturing
    18 |
    19 | Linguistics
    20 | Lecturing, Repurposing
    [/table]

    Proficiencies: no armor, simple weapons

    Lecturing (Ex): The Teacher starts ranting on several subjects. All friendly targets that can hear him within 60 feet gain a competence bonus to a skill equal to the Teacher's Int modifier.

    The Teacher chooses 1 skill to rant about at level 1, and can choose a new skill at each of levels 5, 8, 13, 17, and 20. He may not rant about two skills at the same time. He cannot choose a skill if he does not have at least 5 ranks in him (except the skill chosen at level 1).

    Lecturing takes a full round action to activate, close, or to change the skill it rants about. While it is active, the Teacher loses his swift action every round.

    Linguistics: The Teacher learns a new language at levels 3, 8, 14 and 19. This can be any non-secret language.

    Book Expertise (Ex): The Teacher uses Int as modifier for all skills, regardless of their actual modifiers.

    Repurposing (Psi): The Teacher can use Psychic Reformation as a Wilder of his level, Int mod times per day. He does not pay a power point cost (he does, however, pay XP).

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    DracoDei's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Well, I think I should link to my Guardian of Minds. I would copy all of it, but I don't feel like trying to recreate all the formatting and the thread is locked so I can't quote->copy->paste.

    Analysis:
    It is a scaled down paladin*. Now why is this particularly relevant given that there are at least two other things that fit that description in this thread? The answer is that it is built around Detect Evil/Chaos/Good/Law rather than combative abilities, it does have aura of courage and some other SLA's but those are directly designed to work with the Detect stuff. It is a good NPC class, but I am not sure how applicable it is here, mostly due to it its star class ability being very intentionally an X per YEAR ability that lasts Class-level MINUTES (and for best effect requires that you activate it while wearing armor your are normally non-proficient in).
    *It can work with any alignment except chaotic, and if you really wanted to allow chaotic ones you could without changing any of the rules.

    To further power it down do some or all of the following:
    • Drop Moral Champion
    • Drop Aura of Courage.
    • Change will save to Poor, perhaps moving Divine Grace to 1st level.
    • Remove some or all of the following skills from the skill list: Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Listen, Profession, Spot. Note that Listen and Spot are good for inquisitors and other nosy types. (Huh... an interesting replacement for that would be to give them class level to spot and listen checks made within... say 60' feet and/or only against things they already know are there... that way they aren't good watchmen, but can still listen in on people's conversations or notice useful details about people.)
    • Drop skill-points to 2+Int base.
    • Drop HD to d4s.
    • Change the bonuses from Moral Champion[Subvert the Invader] to virtual skill ranks that either don't stack with actual skill ranks, or only do so up to a character level+3 limit. This keeps the ability from being a "super-mode" when gestalted with rogue.


    Doing all of these results in someone who isn't much good for leading mobs/rebellions from the front and who can't really survive as a member of the "laboring" peasantry (no applicable skills), meaning they HAVE to be a socially based character.

    For those who hate clicking links or need how the class abilities often provide limited work-around to the numerical and skill-list limitations of the class. I will summarize the specifics as best I can without doing a lot of reformating in a spoiler.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Guardian of Minds(Can anyone come with a better name?)


    Alignment:
    Since a guardian of minds attempts to use his powers to adjust the way others think to more suit her vision for how the world should work, she may not be Chaotic. Since she has such a definite vision for the world (even maintaining an existing status quo) she may not be True Neutral. A guardian of minds suffers severe penalties for changing alignments.

    Hit Die:
    d6

    Skills:*
    Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Gather Information(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Heal(Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(Religion)(Int), Listen(Wis), Profession(Wis), Sense Motive(Wis), and Spot(Wis)
    *But see Moral Champion[Subvert the Invader]

    Skill Points at 1st Level
    (4 + Int modifier) ×4.

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level
    4 + Int modifier.

    BAB: Poor*
    Fortitude: Poor*
    Reflex: Poor
    Will: Good

    Weapons and Armor: Proficient with light armor*, shields(except tower shields), and simple weapons**.
    *But see Moral Champion[Overt Heroics]
    **But see Inspired Proficiency, note that this ability can only be activated while Moral Champion[Overt Heroics] is active.

    Aura(Ex): To those who have eyes to see, you are your soul flies a banner proclaiming its allegiances. A mind guardian counts as a cleric of a god of his own alignment for purposes of how they show up to Detect Evil/Law/Chaos/Good, unless they have cleric levels, in which case that aura takes precedence.

    Detect Alignment(Sp): After a hard day of farming, your REAL work starts. Now some would call hanging out in taverns and market-places easy, and, in some ways it is... but you have been granted eyes that can see the inclinations of the spirit and when the eye you have on the crowd finds something that needs correcting, then you must ready your heart to correct the problem. This is not always as easy as it sounds. At first level you gain the ability to detect one alignment at-will as a spell-like ability. This works as the appropriate spell, and has a caster level equal to your class level. You select the alignment you can detect(Law, Chaos, Good, or Evil) off of the following chart, within the restrictions set by your own alignment. At 4th, 7th, and 10th levels you gain the ability to select an additional alignment. If no alignments remain for you to select then the range of all your existing detection abilities granted by this class feature increases by 15 feet. This effect stacks with itself.
    At 13th level you may cast and maintain two separate detection class abilities simultaneously, as if they were a single spell.
    At 16th level each round you spend concentrating on the this ability counts as two for determining how much information you obtain.
    At 19th level if you are Lawful Good or Lawful Evil you may cast and maintain detection abilities for all four alignment components simultaneously, as if they were a single spell. If you are Lawful Neutral, Neutral Good, or Neutral Evil, then concentrating on your detection abilities now only requires a move action each round, rather than a standard action and you may freely cast other spells (if you have some way of doing so) while maintaining such concentration.

    Moral Champion(Ex): You do not relish conflict that involves either blades or trickery, but if it comes, your cause empowers you to deal with the crisis. Choose one of the following each time you activate this ability:
    Subvert the Invader: Gain class level as competence bonus to Bluff, Climb, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, and Swim. All of these effects last a number of days equal to class level and you may use them untrained in that period. This version of this ability may be activated as a Full-Round action.
    Overt Heroics: BAB changes to Full, Fortitude saves to Good, and gain benefits (but NOT drawbacks) of Barbarian rage (as per a barbarian of your class level) for 1 minute per class level. Fatigued for 24 hours afterward. This version of this ability may be activated as an immediate action.

    Divine Concealment (Su): When subterfuge is needed, your soul's banner is furled. While under the effects of Subvert the Invader you gain the effects of Undetectable Alignment

    Aura of Courage (Su):
    Your example grants bravery to those near to you, both with words, and sometimes even against supernatural forces. Beginning at 3rd level, a guardian of minds is immune to mundane fear. Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against mundane fear effects. While her moral champion ability ability is active, this also applies to magical fear. This ability functions while the guardian of minds is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
    At 9th level the radius of this ability increases to 20 feet, thus allowing them to support more who wish in their heart of hearts to stand by their side, but might otherwise lack the courage to actually do so.
    At 15th level the radius increases again, this time to 30 feet.

    Divine Grace (Su): For your service, the gods have their eye on you. At 5th level, a mind guardian gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws. This does not stack with the similar class features of a paladin, crusader, black-guard, or other such class(es).

    Inspired Proficiency (Ex): At 6th level you may gain proficiency with any one martial weapon as a free action once per day while using Overt Heroics. at 18th level you may do this twice per day (during the same use of Overt Heroics), or may expend both uses to gain proficiency in one exotic weapon while using Overt Heroics. In any case the proficiencies end when the Overt Heroics end.

    Tireless Moral Champion (Ex): At 20th level a you are no longer fatigued after Overt Heroics.

    Code of Conduct

    A mind guardian must maintain the same alignment as they had when they entered this class and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act that is of an alignment opposed to hers.

    Additionally, a good mind guardian’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Lawful Neutral and Evil mind guardians have similarly restrictive codes dedicated to law and evil respectively.

    Associates

    While she may adventure with characters of any her own or neutral alignment, a mind guardian will never knowingly associate with characters who have an component to there alignment that directly opposes part or all of their own except for the purpose of altering said alignment component(s) or otherwise reforming/tempting them, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code except for similar reasons. A mind guardian may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who share all non-neutral components of her alignment (so a lawful good mind guardian could only have lawful good followers etc, but a Neutral Good one could mix and match between any of the three Good alignments).

    Ex-mind guardians

    A mind guardian who changes alignment, who willfully commits an act that is opposed to his alignment (for instance a lawful mind guardian who commits a chaotic act), or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all mind guardian spells and abilities (but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a mind guardian. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the aAtonement spell description), as appropriate.

    Unlike paladins, mind guardians may multiclass freely, in fact, a paladin/mind guardian can mix and match levels as they please to progress through both classes.
    Best homebrew:
    Running: Ruceeglaelsktinag IC OOC Active Map
    Power Rangers:"BIG TWIST!!" (working title) IC OOC Active Map:None.
    For everything else (including my homebrew) see: Full list of Homebrew.
    My Homebrew is meant to be used, but, if you do, PLEASE tell me how it goes.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Orc in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Here’s a class I just came up with. I’m not sure if it’s tier six, but it’s not too great. It's more like the monk than the commoner; full of interesting but not particularly good abilities. I'd rather make an interestingly ineffective class than simply give it no class features or rig the math so it's ineffective.

    The Clown

    Hit points:
    6+CON at first level, 1d6+CON at each level.

    Proficiencies: The clown is proficient in all bludgeoning simple weapons. He is considered proficient in daggers only when used as thrown weapons. It gains no proficiency in armor or shields.

    Skill points: (6+INT)*4 at first level, 6+INT at each level.
    The clown’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Tumble (Dex).


    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort.|Ref.|Will|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    | Costume, Entertain|

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Mask of Seriousness|

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Distraction|

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Favor of the Comedy Gods|

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Comedic Surge|

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Skill Mastery|

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Circus Negotiation|

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |Versatile Performer|

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Skill Mastery|

    11th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |

    12th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    | Channel Nightmares|

    13th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Skill Mastery|

    14th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |Fear Immunity|

    15th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |Surprise!|

    16th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    | Skill Mastery|

    17th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |

    18th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |

    19th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |

    20th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |Killing Joke|
    [/table]

    Class Features:

    Costume: At first level, a clown receives a clown costume, which he must wear in order to make use of his class features. Wearing it means he is unable to use armor without difficulty. If he loses his costume, he is unable to advance in this class or use class features until he buys a new one. In addition, he costume's appearance bestows a -4 penalty to Hide checks when partially visible, and its oversized, squeaky shoes bestow a -4 penalty to Move Silently checks.
    Entertain: A clown has the ability to entertain others a number of times per day equal to his class level + his CHA modifier. Many of his class features consume his Entertain uses.
    Mask of Seriousness: At second level, a clown learns that the most important part of humor is when not to laugh. He is immune to Hideous Laughter, his own Killing Joke ability, and any other laugh-based ability (at the DM’s discretion). He is also unable to smile or laugh unless it is part of an act.
    Distraction: A clown can use his Entertaining skills to distract others. As a standard action, he can expend an Entertain use to fascinate an enemy, as the bardic music ability. He can fascinate two enemies at 7th level, three at 11th, five at 15th, and ten at 19th.
    Favor of the Comedy Gods: Starting at fourth level, a clown can expend an Entertain use to cast any cantrip on the Bard list as a spell-like ability.
    Comedic Surge: At sixth level, the clown’s act can invigorate allies. As a standard action, he can expend two Entertain uses and make a Perform check to grant an ally within 30 feet temporary hitpoints equal to their CON score. The check’s DC is 10+the ally’s CON score.
    Skill Mastery: At 7th level, the clown can apply Skill Mastery, as the rogue ability, to one of his skills. He can apply the benefit to another skill at 10th, 13th, and 16th level. Each time he takes 10 on a skill, he must expend an Entertain use.
    Circus Negotiation: At 8th level, the clown learns to negotiate like any true carny. When making a Diplomacy check, he can spend an Entertain use and make a Perform check at a –5 penalty in its place.
    Versatile Performer: At 9th level, the clown gains Versatile Performer as a bonus feat.
    Channel Nightmares: At 12th level, the clown learns how to transform his charming appearance into a nightmarish visage of evil. As a standard action, he can spend an Entertain use to try to intimidate one enemy within 30 feet. They must make a Will save, with the DC being the result of the clown’s Perform check. If they fail, they are shaken. If used on a shaken foe, they increase to frightened, but cannot be scared further.
    Fear Immunity: At 14th level, the clown becomes immune to all fear effects due to his extensive stored knowledge of comedy and subtle understanding of emotions.
    Surprise!: At 15th level, the clown can “play along” when surprised by enemies. If he is surprised, he can spend an Entertain use to act normally in the surprise round.
    Killing Joke: At 20th level, the clown learns the most secret of secret clownian rituals. He can expend three uses of his Entertain ability to tell a joke so funny that anyone who hears it is unable to stop laughing. Anyone close enough to hear and understand the joke being told must make a Will save to avoid laughing. If they fail, they start laughing uncontrollably, and are treated as if they are cowering. After a number of rounds equal to their CON modifier, they must make a Fortitude save or die instantly. The DC for both saves is equal to 20+ the clown’s CHA modifier. This is a sonic, mind-affecting, language-dependent effect (though the joke can be told in any language the clown can speak).
    Last edited by Treblain; 2011-10-14 at 10:56 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    flabort's Avatar

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Now that there's one or more "T6" casters, would it be possible to make a "T6" with ToB? Alright, that's the next challenge. Any takers?
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  29. - Top - End - #59
    Orc in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    Now that there's one or more "T6" casters, would it be possible to make a "T6" with ToB? Alright, that's the next challenge. Any takers?
    I don't think it's possible, since even a Tier 6 class has the ability to take Martial Study as many times as they want.

    EDIT: Heck, just giving them a recovery method probably pushes them past T6.
    Last edited by Treblain; 2011-10-14 at 10:28 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

    I'm currently working on a T6 Psion, will post it when done.

    I try not to touch ToB even when not limiting myself to T6.

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