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2012-09-08, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Cohort, yes. Follower, no.
And I'll admit, whilst I've never read the Marshall class, I would place pep-talk as well below Bard Song in terms of both ability and versatility. A bard can - with the right work - give themselves effectively endless bard song (in as much as it ever matters on the x number of encounters per rest that most campaigns run on).
And bards have spellcasting - which you can push to level 9 if you take a particular class (I'm looking at you Sublime Chord).
That was the balance point Selenia was shooting for. Where she's still shooting for. And, IMHO, she's nailed her target to the wall. Marshall is - from everything I have read - a very bad class. Tier 4/5 that - with a great deal of work - can be pushed to tier 3 (just).
Sempai is mid Tier 3 at best. It can swing the balance in a party's favour - but then so can bard song if you know when to kick it in and what to use. And Pep Talk takes 10 minutes to prep or change. It's not versatile. Even Pose as a Team can only give a limited number of effects (all of which can be done - in most cases better - by a full/bard spellcaster).
I'm sorry, but...I'm really not seeing a balance issue here.
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2012-09-08, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
You best gauge a classes tier by looking for "what does this for me in the game, and how desirable is a class in a group". Afterwards you MAY compare it to other classes, but its really about "how versatile and powerful is a class by itself" (incl. prestige and multiclass).
Also, keep in mind that Peptalk expires after the next encounter and takes 10 minutes to apply again. Have another encounter after two minutes? Too bad!LGBTitP
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted Fanfiction)
Originally Posted by grarrrg
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2012-09-08, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
First, Chronologist, you should use bold and italics to make your classes easier to read.
Also, on the Paragon of Discord, I'd suggest using something else for apathy, since apathy is not at all the counter to loyalty. Apathy is a lack of emotion, passion, opinion, etc. It could be described as a lack of caring. While this does mean a being of pure apathy wouldn't have loyalty, it doesn't mean they would be counter to it. They would simply not care one way or the other, and would behave loyally or disloyally based on other factors (such as logic, ease of action, random selection, etc.). Looking at the specific abilities keyed to it I'd note the following.
This is far more sloth than apathy. While often linked together (including the modern incarnation of the seven deadly sins having combine the two into one slot), they are quite distinct. Sloth might feel passion or emotion, but be to lazy to act on it. Apathy may act on something but feel no emotions regarding it. This can only slightly fit with apathy if one is of the view that not having an opinion on things or being unemotional means one must be lazy.
This doesn't fit with apathy at all, being more anarchy than anything other term I can think of off hand. Apathy simply doesn't care about agreements, and might honour them as easily as not. It also wouldn't be loathe anything as that would require emotion or opinion.
Anyway, not wanting to seem too harsh, as I like the rest of it. That part just bugs me considerably so I thought it best to make note of it in hopes that the end result can be made better.
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2012-09-09, 03:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
This is, sadly, not part 3/4 of the Power of Teamwork update. I can't really point the blame here to anything but the fact that I have a nasty autumn cold, and its seriously putting a damper on the creative parts of my brain.
Still, some important stuff to respond to.
SpoilerTo the creator: please look back over and reconsider your illuminations list. They're so unbalanced they teeter on the side of insanity.
I was introduced to this class by one of my players and fellow GMs. Inspired by the sheer creativity in mechanics shown in this class I quickly grew to become a fan advocating its use. It's unique and really merged all the best aspects of both Incarnum and Tome of Battle combat mechanics, even putting aside that I am a Nanoha fan (awaiting the 2nd movie!). I also found the base class rather balanced in advancement, although I won't speak of the PrCs (all of the 5lvl ones are too crammed and OP imo, and sempai is positively broken as it boosts a small squad even better than the best Marshal design), but that's for other GMs to decide...
But the illuminations... there is so much overpoweredness that I had to say something. Let me raise some examples:
Lvl1s:
Beacon of Serenity - swift action to gain level+CHA temporary HP per round for a mote cost that regenerates every turn. This, alone, makes any melee magical girl build the best tank in the game as they can continuously create a buffer of HP that has to be worn down. Since the duration is until end of encounter, the magical girl can go full-offense until the opponent does take down that buffer.
Comparison: Cleric's basic Aid spell (SpLvl2) gives only 1d8+CL temporary HP, as a standard action.
Suggestion: make this just tempHP = Charisma mod. As a swift action, single mote ability in a CHA-class, that's already extremely powerful.
Fragile Shell - swift action to make a wall that blocks movement, no matter how fragile, is ridiculous. The enemy has to spend an attack (or multiple attacks at low lvls, given the HP here) taking down a wall that you can raise as swift actions before they get to you? Instantly the best field-control (divide and conquer!) and rear guard character.
Comparison: Solid wall spells, by and most aren't available until SpLvl4+ (although Spell Compendium's Dark Way is lvl2).
Suggestion: actually this is so abusable I don't know where to start. Recommend making it standard action for starters, with either (1) and upkeep or (2) ability for enemy to break through with a strength check so they don't have to spend actions attacking it.
Heartbreaker - -4xhit dmg isn't too bad, but... +1roll/turn is too many for already overloaded GMs. Tracking fluctuating penalties is even more annoying. I can see most GMs banning this out of sheer annoyance after a few encounters (I know I would!)
Homing Shot - low damage multi-shot spell is fine, and I love the Accel Shooter concept too, but this is way too powerful at lower lvls --- when mages can't consistently make Concentration checks (they need to hit med-lvl for that), a rapid barrage of shots at them in response to any cast is very liking to disrupt spellcasting, making this an extremely overpowered low-lvl counterspell. At higher lvls, the right build to increase output damage can still keep this useful (and abusable).
Comparison: what comparison, there is NO immediate action target-anyone-you-want-in-range attack spells at lower lvls.
Spotlight - this spell need clarification on how it works against magical darkness. The ability to clear any magical darkness, even say, SpLvl9 Utterdark (BoVD?) with just a lvl1 swift action is over the bounds of insanity. -1 penalty to enemies and +1 bonus to allies makes this equivalent to a Prayer (Cleric SpLvl4) spell, except also clearing darkness + reposition at will + swift action cast? This is the equivalent of a SpLvl7+ ability if I've seen one.
Lvl2s:
Angel / Blinding Buster - at class level 6 when this is first gained, it costs 3 motes while one regens 2/round. With Radiant Focus that easily meaning this is a 1/round spammable action, at 6d6+Charisma damage, at medium range, double the damage of Warlocks and without burning slots like Wizards... wut? Max damage vs all those creature types make the Paladin look useless in comparison at med levels.
Chains of Concordance - lvl+CHA grapple mod is already equal to Fighter builds (meaning Wizards have no chance, and Rogues little unless they invested Escape Artist). Add a +4 on top and SWIFT action cast... seriously, just spam.
Comparison: Telekinesis is a CL + casting mod grapple, but takes a standard action to cast AND requires concentration to use AND burns a SpLvl5 slot.
...and on...
I hope the creators consider this message and reconsider their designs. It would be a shame for many a GM to ban this class purely because they, as I did, opened up the illumination list and realized how much abusable potential over half the list had that easily allow a magical girl to outdo the rest of the party.
That said, magical girl design is far from perfect. The class is almost a year old now, and was literally the first thing I'd ever seriously homebrewed. It was absurdly over-ambitious, and nowhere does this show more clearly than in the Illumination list. Even with lots of tweak, redesigns, and rebalancing, I am still not happy with it. I like the basic mechanic. I like some of the abilities, even! But I do not pretend they are balanced.
I am trying to make them balanced.
That is why discussion like this is very, very useful to me.
I am currently in the process of performing some heavy redesign on illuminations (said redesign is responsible for a good chunk of my slowdown since starting the Power of Teamwork update), and believe me, this set of comparisons really helped. Serafina's augumentation suggestions have also influenced me heavily. At some point in the not-distant future, expect a lot of shuffling in illuminations - in particular, a lot of effects that are 'baseline' now requiring augumentation to receive. I'm currently playing in a magical girl playtest game, and have a player running one in another, and it is becoming abundantly clear that most magical girls have too many motes. Past the first few levels, they become less something to be spent than something to be thrown away as quickly as possible, and actually running dry is rarely a serious concern. Motes should be valuable. Expendable, but valuable.
And yes. Balanceposts are always welcome.
I am continually stunned by the effort people put into making homebrews of homebrew. This could carry on until the end of time, and I would not grasp it fully.
But seriously, this is brilliant. You've even formatted it in the standard magical girl format style, which is ohmygoddessyouwouldnotbeleive how many hearts your earned. Were this thread occupied by as many green-pajama-clad fairy heroes as ponies, they would totally be calling collective shenanigains on that heart windfall. I can think of a couple minor tweaks (most notably, reducing Personification's radius to something smaller than the miles scale... and bold/italics tags), but you've done an excellent job of capturing the spirit of the class (and the PrC, in the case of Despair).
On Radiant Focus in Pathfinder: Concentration actually exists in Pathfinder - it's just a glorified caster level check. Simply give the magical girl a +3 bonus when radiant focusing to compensate for not having the 'skill edge'.
On costumes... I admit, I am honestly not sure why it does not go to +7. It will go to +7. That will be a thing very shortly.Lovely Rita Mordio avatar by Zefir! Thank you!
Homebrew:
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2012-09-09, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
RE barriers and balance:
I just skimmed the illuminations list again and the barriers are nice although they ARE kinda overpowered.
As a general rule, anything that would restrict enemy actions should cost at least a standard action. Swift action action denial is pretty damned insane.
If you want an "instant barrier" sort of thing, perhaps make a variant of Fragile Shell that is immediate action use but lasts only until start of next turn and costs a bunch and has half to one-third hp of the standard action version.
And range like 10ft or something.
Swift actions stand in the grey area between almost-free (move) and reactions (immediate). Using this in ways beyond short temporary buffs/debuffs is not good. The other barriers are fine, but Fragile Shell is not.
Not unless you're gunning for Celerity levels of brokenness. As it is right now, I would still take Celerity over Fragile Shell, but not by much. In some not-that-rare situations (a ranged skirmishing battle in complex terrain), I would consider Fragile Shell BETTER than Celerity.
Example use:
Assuming the MG can afford the 1 mote / round cost of continuous casting, she just summons a Fragile Shell around enemies to trap them and doesn't maintain it. On their round, they have to break through, cutting into actions, restricting movement and serving as an unavoidable damage debuff.
Worse still, if you can afford more than 1 mote /round, you can attempt to heal the barrier as it is attacked for more damage debuff and potentially neutralizing one enemy.
For reference, if the MG's allies wish to attack trapped opponents, they just Delay (you can wait until after someone else) until after that opponent's initiative and whack away after that opponent has downed the barrier.
If the opponent has failed to drop the barrier, they delay until after the MG and on the MG's turn the barrier goes away and SHE delays until after her allies have whacked the enemy.
With this and some other initiative shenanigans, the barrier doesn't prevent allies from attacking but prevents enemies.Last edited by jseah; 2012-09-09 at 08:46 AM.
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2012-09-09, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Swift actions are however a pretty valuable resource for the Magical Girl, since she gets lots of decent options for them.
So making Barriers require a swift-action upkeep each round seems a pretty good way to restric their usage.
In addition, i am a firm supporter of the idea that you can pass trough Fragil Shell without attacking it. Options include
- requiring a free-action, part of movementstrenght-check to break trough the barrier
- likewise, a will- or fortitude saving throw to pass trough it
- allowing people to attack the barrier as part of a charge - if you charge someone behind it, you attack the barrier, if you do enough damage, you charge to your target and attack it normally.
That way it is no longer denies any actions for some enemies - but not all, thus retaining value as battlefield control.LGBTitP
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted Fanfiction)
Originally Posted by grarrrg
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2012-09-09, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
I think allowing a strength check to move through (and break it) would make sense and mitigate it, but it really really needs to be standard action unless the check is easy (10 + cha mod to break could be balanced for swift action, roughly 50% chance of failing). If the check is easy, then it goes down in power alot and might not be worth the motes.
It could be buffed in terms of hp (2x) and strength check required (15 + cha), or increase in range, if you make it a standard and increase the mote cost to 2 so it can't get spammed as easily. That is roughly in line with the amount of action denial granted by BC spells (eg. Black Tentacles).
Seriously, it needs to be effective, meaning it locks down enemies and BCs very well, but needs to subtract alot from the MG's offense to keep it up. That means standard actions and mote cost.
That MGs have useful things to do with swift actions is a point. But most of those are numerical buffs/debuffs, and not large ones either (large meaning 10+). Those are fine, but trading swifts for enemy standards is always going to be a good deal compared to those unless it's a target rich environment.
...
Oh wow, I must have missed Starlight Rampart. XD
Same objection applies to that one, only that at high levels, tactical teleport gets semi-common anyway and tactical abilities start to get overshadowed so it doesn't matter so much for L4 illuminations.
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2012-09-09, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
One question: Isn't it supposed to be Swallow Flyer, not Swallow Buster?
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2012-09-11, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
I just want to say that this class and everything associated with it is, without a doubt, the best thing ever.
But seriously, reading the OP was a real joy and made me really excited! I almost want to find a different group somewhere just so I can play it!valiant efforts in self-preservationbehold the lovable chlorophylic rogue
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2012-09-11, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
I made a few changes to the Exemplar of Harmony and Paragon of Discord classes. I reduced the range of their harmony/discord feat ability to 100 feet per class level, I altered the Deceit Judgment, and I changed the Apathy Discord into the Betrayal Discord, as per Owrthro's insightful comments.
I think the classes are generic enough in ability and premise to be easily adapted to any number of high-level magical girls, with Madoka Magicka being the main inspiration and example.
I agree that creating a barrier as a swift action is a pretty powerful ability, even for Tier 3. Perhaps instead of actually creating a barrier, it could be an immediate action that does one of the following:
a) grant concealment to a single target against a single attack, or
b) grants temporary hit points equal to your Magical Girl level to a single target, but only against a single attack
You could create a level 2 or 3 Illumination that increased the benefits of the barrier to total concealment and maybe double the temporary hit points.
After all, barriers in Magical Girl shows tend to either deflect incoming blasts, or protect the user from harm until it's shattered. I think this would be a better alternative to creating an actual physical barrier, which would generally be more versatile and powerful.
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2012-09-15, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Something about Stargazer's bugging me: Can the Soulbound Companion be used as a Scout of sorts, or would it have no sences to be used.
Another question: Does the Stargazer's Int replacement also applies to any PrCs related to Magical Girl, or does it isolate itself to just the Magical Girl itself?Last edited by LoneMage210; 2012-09-15 at 11:59 PM.
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2012-09-17, 01:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Something that's been on my mind for a while: How would a thrown weapon Device work? My gut tells me it falls under the category of Spirit Shooter, but that only allows for one weapon, not the 4-5 needed for use.
I guess my main questions boil down to these:
-Is a thrown weapon Device legal?
-If so, does it require being a Spirit Shooter?
-What happens after you throw it? Does it return? Do you need to go yank it out of the enemy/pick it up off the ground?
-If you get multiple attacks per round, can your device only be one of them?
For my suggestions on how to make it work, if you can't think of anything/already know and I just missed it, here they are:
-Thrown weapons can be "called back" as a move action (swift if you have Quick Draw). When this happens, they simply appear in the Magical Girl's hand. Exact effect varies, but it requires a free hand to do.
-If your Device is a weapon that can only be used as a thrown weapon without penalty (For example, javelins get a penalty if used for melee, but daggers can be either, so they don't count), you can have enough copies of it existant at one time to be able to make a full attack. Example: a level 3 MG with darts as her Device could have only 1, but the same MG at level 17 could have 3.
-A Spirit Shot with a thrown Device (if it works that way) has the Device bypass up to CHA Modifier points of Damage Resistance, even DR/-. This costs 1 Mote per copy of the device being used that turn.Awesome Gordon Freemane Avatar by Dirtytabs
ATTENTION: Finally returning (slowly) after a hiatus. I'd rather not talk about it.
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2012-09-29, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Where and wehn can we expect to see Tome of Radiance? I am excited to upgrade Umiko.
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2012-09-29, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Wrong thread, maybe? I haven't heard of "Tome of radiance" before.
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2012-09-29, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Sort of right thread, just posted ahead of time and in the wrong place.
Trace,
SpoilerSelinia will let them know when she lets them know. Be happy with what we've got over on the playtest thread for now, ok?
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2012-09-29, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
"ahead of time"?
"Tome of <relevant word to class>"?!
*EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*!
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2012-09-29, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Hey, I wanted to say something to Selinia, here, about the class. I'll preface it with saying that I've been dodging around the homebrew forum without ever looking at this class, mostly because I never liked the "Magical Girl" archetype present in a lot of anime. That aside, I think this is a wonderful class, that is nicely designed. One thing that I noticed though, and I don't know if it was on purpose, was that you never actually stated that any of the Magical Girl class features couldn't be used in Heavy armour. Which means that effectively they are 2 feats away from wearing Full-Plate with all of their other bonuses.
I'm not going to pretend I've read all the comments, so you may already be aware, and if I have pointed out an error I would caution you to think before you fix it. I see a lot of 'brewers banning heavier armours outright, because it didn't fit how they imagined the class. I think that that is a bad way to design a class, and I wish more of them would at least leave open the possibility of spending a feat to wear armour.
And speaking of possibilities, why is the magical girl not able to choose an Exotic weapon for their Device? It seems like some kind of Eagle Claw/Spiked Chain/Repeater Crossbow would be exactly the kind of thing to be wielded by a magic teenage paladin.
So again, I may not appreciate the general fictional genre, but your class does a good job of emulating it and is well designed. Kudos and a biscuit to you."Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens
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2012-09-30, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
You are actually wrong on all accounts
While the Magical Girl can indeed wear heavy armor and use most of her class features, she can ordinarily only use Light Amor for her Costume (which is pretty much her second-most important class feature).
However, there IS a feat that allows her to use Medium and even Heavy Armor for her Costume, thus directly supporting the idea.
As for Exotic Weapons, look at the Devicer-Archetype - those can use Exotic Weapons for their device, including free proficiency.LGBTitP
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted Fanfiction)
Originally Posted by grarrrg
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2012-10-01, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
Well, I can't speak officially, but I'm currently working on a Thrown Device-based archetype, tentatively called Kaitou. The question I'm currently pondering is, how would thrown devices interact with Strikes...
Oh, by the way, I'm actually compiling my own version of "Tome of", called in my case "Tome of Luminous Might", specifically made for pathfinder.
There are all kinds of small issues coming up - for instance, Improved Mettle and Improved FlyBy Attack not existing in Pathfinder - and I made a number of small, mostly cosmetic changes, but there is one kinda large one, which I don't want to make without consulting authors - namely, I really feel Stargazer should be an alternate class, not an archetype. Your opinion?
edit:
One more thing, concerning prestige classes: At certain levels, they increase "all aspects of their illuminations", at others, only "evoker level and mote pool". So, for example, an MG10/CosCr5/AerMg5 would have 16 levels of "all aspects" and 4 of "level/motes only". So, check my math on this:
Mote pool 20
Evoker Level 20
Mote regen 4/turn (as a MG16)
Illuminations prepared
3 least / 3 lesser / 2 greater / 1 grand (again, as MG16)
Is that correct? ('Cause if it is, Nanoha, who most definitely has some AerMg levels, would never get her most iconic Illumination :-))Last edited by jamieth; 2012-10-01 at 06:16 AM.
Tome of Radiance, a Magical Girl sourcebook for 3.5/PF.
"Jamie" is fine. TH is mostly there to make sure the name would be free on any forum I'd want to register :-)
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2012-10-01, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
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2012-10-06, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]
My bad. Should have read forum and figured that out for myself - no patience, me. I wouldn't really describe our campaign as a playtest though....
Last edited by Princess Tracy; 2012-10-06 at 08:39 PM.