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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Snowfire's Avatar

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Cohort, yes. Follower, no.

    And I'll admit, whilst I've never read the Marshall class, I would place pep-talk as well below Bard Song in terms of both ability and versatility. A bard can - with the right work - give themselves effectively endless bard song (in as much as it ever matters on the x number of encounters per rest that most campaigns run on).

    And bards have spellcasting - which you can push to level 9 if you take a particular class (I'm looking at you Sublime Chord).

    That was the balance point Selenia was shooting for. Where she's still shooting for. And, IMHO, she's nailed her target to the wall. Marshall is - from everything I have read - a very bad class. Tier 4/5 that - with a great deal of work - can be pushed to tier 3 (just).

    Sempai is mid Tier 3 at best. It can swing the balance in a party's favour - but then so can bard song if you know when to kick it in and what to use. And Pep Talk takes 10 minutes to prep or change. It's not versatile. Even Pose as a Team can only give a limited number of effects (all of which can be done - in most cases better - by a full/bard spellcaster).

    I'm sorry, but...I'm really not seeing a balance issue here.
    Quote Originally Posted by QuintonBeck View Post
    Many thanks to Snowfire for collating all these. He's a madman, but he's a helpful madman.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mynxae View Post
    Damn you Snowfire. I cried.
    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon777 View Post
    T_T I swear, you just made me cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Well, here's another for your sig, Snowfire.

    <struck dumb>

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    You best gauge a classes tier by looking for "what does this for me in the game, and how desirable is a class in a group". Afterwards you MAY compare it to other classes, but its really about "how versatile and powerful is a class by itself" (incl. prestige and multiclass).

    Also, keep in mind that Peptalk expires after the next encounter and takes 10 minutes to apply again. Have another encounter after two minutes? Too bad!

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    First, Chronologist, you should use bold and italics to make your classes easier to read.

    Also, on the Paragon of Discord, I'd suggest using something else for apathy, since apathy is not at all the counter to loyalty. Apathy is a lack of emotion, passion, opinion, etc. It could be described as a lack of caring. While this does mean a being of pure apathy wouldn't have loyalty, it doesn't mean they would be counter to it. They would simply not care one way or the other, and would behave loyally or disloyally based on other factors (such as logic, ease of action, random selection, etc.). Looking at the specific abilities keyed to it I'd note the following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronologist View Post
    Why Bother: When you hit with an Illumination, you may declare that you are using this Judgment. The target must make a Fortitude save DC 15 + your Paragon of Discord level + your Charisma modifier or become both fatigued for 1d4 rounds, then they must make a Will save DC 15 + your Paragon of Discord level + your charisma modifier or become sickened for 1d4 rounds. If your Discord is Apathy, then instead of fatigued and sickened, the target is exhausted and nauseated, respectively, and the duration increases by your Paragon of Discord level.
    This is far more sloth than apathy. While often linked together (including the modern incarnation of the seven deadly sins having combine the two into one slot), they are quite distinct. Sloth might feel passion or emotion, but be to lazy to act on it. Apathy may act on something but feel no emotions regarding it. This can only slightly fit with apathy if one is of the view that not having an opinion on things or being unemotional means one must be lazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronologist View Post
    {table=head]Element|Code
    Apathy|You cannot honor any agreement you make, and are loathe to make such agreements. You refuse to follow any rules. [/table]
    This doesn't fit with apathy at all, being more anarchy than anything other term I can think of off hand. Apathy simply doesn't care about agreements, and might honour them as easily as not. It also wouldn't be loathe anything as that would require emotion or opinion.

    Anyway, not wanting to seem too harsh, as I like the rest of it. That part just bugs me considerably so I thought it best to make note of it in hopes that the end result can be made better.

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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    This is, sadly, not part 3/4 of the Power of Teamwork update. I can't really point the blame here to anything but the fact that I have a nasty autumn cold, and its seriously putting a damper on the creative parts of my brain.

    Still, some important stuff to respond to.

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    To the creator: please look back over and reconsider your illuminations list. They're so unbalanced they teeter on the side of insanity.

    I was introduced to this class by one of my players and fellow GMs. Inspired by the sheer creativity in mechanics shown in this class I quickly grew to become a fan advocating its use. It's unique and really merged all the best aspects of both Incarnum and Tome of Battle combat mechanics, even putting aside that I am a Nanoha fan (awaiting the 2nd movie!). I also found the base class rather balanced in advancement, although I won't speak of the PrCs (all of the 5lvl ones are too crammed and OP imo, and sempai is positively broken as it boosts a small squad even better than the best Marshal design), but that's for other GMs to decide...

    But the illuminations... there is so much overpoweredness that I had to say something. Let me raise some examples:

    Lvl1s:

    Beacon of Serenity - swift action to gain level+CHA temporary HP per round for a mote cost that regenerates every turn. This, alone, makes any melee magical girl build the best tank in the game as they can continuously create a buffer of HP that has to be worn down. Since the duration is until end of encounter, the magical girl can go full-offense until the opponent does take down that buffer.
    Comparison: Cleric's basic Aid spell (SpLvl2) gives only 1d8+CL temporary HP, as a standard action.
    Suggestion: make this just tempHP = Charisma mod. As a swift action, single mote ability in a CHA-class, that's already extremely powerful.

    Fragile Shell - swift action to make a wall that blocks movement, no matter how fragile, is ridiculous. The enemy has to spend an attack (or multiple attacks at low lvls, given the HP here) taking down a wall that you can raise as swift actions before they get to you? Instantly the best field-control (divide and conquer!) and rear guard character.
    Comparison: Solid wall spells, by and most aren't available until SpLvl4+ (although Spell Compendium's Dark Way is lvl2).
    Suggestion: actually this is so abusable I don't know where to start. Recommend making it standard action for starters, with either (1) and upkeep or (2) ability for enemy to break through with a strength check so they don't have to spend actions attacking it.

    Heartbreaker - -4xhit dmg isn't too bad, but... +1roll/turn is too many for already overloaded GMs. Tracking fluctuating penalties is even more annoying. I can see most GMs banning this out of sheer annoyance after a few encounters (I know I would!)

    Homing Shot - low damage multi-shot spell is fine, and I love the Accel Shooter concept too, but this is way too powerful at lower lvls --- when mages can't consistently make Concentration checks (they need to hit med-lvl for that), a rapid barrage of shots at them in response to any cast is very liking to disrupt spellcasting, making this an extremely overpowered low-lvl counterspell. At higher lvls, the right build to increase output damage can still keep this useful (and abusable).
    Comparison: what comparison, there is NO immediate action target-anyone-you-want-in-range attack spells at lower lvls.

    Spotlight - this spell need clarification on how it works against magical darkness. The ability to clear any magical darkness, even say, SpLvl9 Utterdark (BoVD?) with just a lvl1 swift action is over the bounds of insanity. -1 penalty to enemies and +1 bonus to allies makes this equivalent to a Prayer (Cleric SpLvl4) spell, except also clearing darkness + reposition at will + swift action cast? This is the equivalent of a SpLvl7+ ability if I've seen one.



    Lvl2s:

    Angel / Blinding Buster - at class level 6 when this is first gained, it costs 3 motes while one regens 2/round. With Radiant Focus that easily meaning this is a 1/round spammable action, at 6d6+Charisma damage, at medium range, double the damage of Warlocks and without burning slots like Wizards... wut? Max damage vs all those creature types make the Paladin look useless in comparison at med levels.

    Chains of Concordance - lvl+CHA grapple mod is already equal to Fighter builds (meaning Wizards have no chance, and Rogues little unless they invested Escape Artist). Add a +4 on top and SWIFT action cast... seriously, just spam.
    Comparison: Telekinesis is a CL + casting mod grapple, but takes a standard action to cast AND requires concentration to use AND burns a SpLvl5 slot.

    ...and on...



    I hope the creators consider this message and reconsider their designs. It would be a shame for many a GM to ban this class purely because they, as I did, opened up the illumination list and realized how much abusable potential over half the list had that easily allow a magical girl to outdo the rest of the party.
    To begin with, I will state that the target tier for Magical Girl is Tier 3. She is good at what she does - extremely so, with the right build or circumstances. Like any tier 3, she can pulls weight with the best in her realm of expertise - bards have their well-known level 9 spell PrC, or their infamously potent Inspire Courage. I like those things. I like tier 3. So if something says, "The magical girl is better than the marshal/fighter/warlock", I really have no argument for that. I don't try to balance with the samurai any more than I try to balance with the druid.

    That said, magical girl design is far from perfect. The class is almost a year old now, and was literally the first thing I'd ever seriously homebrewed. It was absurdly over-ambitious, and nowhere does this show more clearly than in the Illumination list. Even with lots of tweak, redesigns, and rebalancing, I am still not happy with it. I like the basic mechanic. I like some of the abilities, even! But I do not pretend they are balanced.

    I am trying to make them balanced.

    That is why discussion like this is very, very useful to me.

    I am currently in the process of performing some heavy redesign on illuminations (said redesign is responsible for a good chunk of my slowdown since starting the Power of Teamwork update), and believe me, this set of comparisons really helped. Serafina's augumentation suggestions have also influenced me heavily. At some point in the not-distant future, expect a lot of shuffling in illuminations - in particular, a lot of effects that are 'baseline' now requiring augumentation to receive. I'm currently playing in a magical girl playtest game, and have a player running one in another, and it is becoming abundantly clear that most magical girls have too many motes. Past the first few levels, they become less something to be spent than something to be thrown away as quickly as possible, and actually running dry is rarely a serious concern. Motes should be valuable. Expendable, but valuable.

    And yes. Balanceposts are always welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronologist View Post
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    The Exemplar of Harmony



    "You think you can destroy the Elements of Harmony just like that? Well you're wrong! Because the spirits of the Elements of Harmony... are RIGHT HERE!" T. Sparkle, Exemplar of Magic/Hope


    There comes a point where a magical girl ceases to simply exemplify the forces of good and light – she becomes them. This transition is rare and unconventional for a Magical Girl, but allows them to expand the subtle influence of their powers, as well as transcend mortality itself in time. Though there are only six Elements, the number of potential Exemplar of Harmony is not so limited - each character is simply a manifestation of that concept.

    Requirements:
    To become an Exemplar of Harmony, you must meet the following prerequisites:
    Skills: 18 ranks in Diplomacy
    Feat: Harmonic Resonance
    Special: Pure of Heart class feature, 10 or more levels of classes and prestige classes that grant Illuminations

    Class Skill List: Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha)

    Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

    Exemplar of Harmony
    Hit Dice: d6

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Illuminations
    1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Anthropomorphic Personification, Illumination Mastery|+1 level
    2|+1|+0|+0|+3|Illumination Mastery|+1 level
    3|+1|+1|+1|+3|Illumination Mastery, Costume +1|+1 level
    4|+2|+1|+1|+4|Illumination Mastery|+1 level
    5|+2|+1|+1|+4|Illumination Mastery, Becoming Hope|+1 level[/table]


    Weapons and Armor Proficiencies: An Exemplar of Harmony gains no additional proficiency with any kind of weapon or armor.

    Anthropomorphic Personification (Su): At 1st level, an Exemplar of Harmony selects one of the following, each an exemplary quality that Magical Girls hold dear. It must match her Harmony selected by the Harmonic Resonance feat. As a full-round action, she can temporarily shed her mortality and become an anthropomorphic personification of her chosen element. Each element grants a number of special benefits, but they all share the same following benefits:

    - Gains the Outsider (Native) type and subtype, replacing her own for the duration, with all the benefits that grants.

    - Incorporeal for the duration, though the Exemplar of Harmony may concentrate as a free action to lower this quality until the beginning of their next turn.

    - Gain a Fly speed equal to her base land speed. If she already possessed a fly speed, her speed increases by 30 feet.

    - The number of Motes you recover each round and the save DC of your Illuminations, if any, is increased by 2.

    In addition, each Exemplar of Harmony in this state radiates an aura reaching out 1 mile per Exemplar of Harmony level, which forces all creatures within the radius to act as if they had your Harmonic Resonance feat, except they get a Will save DC is 20 + your Charisma modifier in order to resist the cumulative penalty. Only good creatures, however, gain the benefits of your feat.

    An Exemplar of Harmony can maintain this state for a number of minutes per day equal to their class level plus their Charisma modifier. They can deactivate the state as a free action, but they can only spend time in this state in 1-minute increments.

    Illumination Mastery: At 1st level and every level thereafter, an Exemplar of Harmony gains an Illumination Mastery from the list below. Once learned, an Illumination Mastery cannot be changed.

    Illumination Masteries:
    Blast of Power: As a standard action, an Exemplar of Harmony may fire a number of magical bolts, just like a Blast Illumination. She fires one bolt per Element of Harmony level, plus two per Mote spent, and they have a range of Medium. She cannot spend more motes than her class level in this way. Each bolt inflicts 1d6 damage, and functions as a Magic Missile spell for all intents and purposes (i.e. it hits automatically, can be distributed among any number of targets within range, but can be blocked with Shield spells and the like)

    Augmented Reach: Select a single Strike Illumination you know. You may make attacks with that Strike Illumination as ranged touch attacks with a 30-foot range. This ability may be taken more than once, each time, select a different Strike Illumination.

    Prismatic Shift: Select a single Illumination you know that inflicts damage. As a free action when you use that Illumination, you may choose to have it deal fire, electricity, cold, or electricity damage instead of its normal damage. This ability can be taken more than once, each time, select a different Illumination.

    Shaping Mastery: Select a single Illumination you know with an burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread shape. When you use that Illumination, you may choose to exclude a number of squares within the area from being affected by the Illumination. You may take this ability more than once, each time you select a different Illumination.

    Off the Walls: Select a single Illumination you know with a line of effect. When you use that Illumination, you may have the line make as many 90-degree turns as you wish, in the direction you wish, until its range runs out. This effectively allows you to fire lines around corners, in circles, and around allies. You may take this ability more than once, each time you select a different Illumination.

    Expanded Radius: Select an Aura Illumination that you know. That Aura’s range is doubled. You may take this ability more than once, each time you select a different Illumination.

    Favored Illumination: Select a single Illumination you know. When you enter combat, you may choose to remove a number of Motes from your pool equal to that Illumination’s mote cost. If you do, you may use that Illumination for free up to 2 times during that encounter. You may take this ability more than once, each time you select a different Illumination.



    Illuminations: At 1st level and every level thereafter, an Exemplar of Harmony improves her ability to use Illuminations as though she gained a level in Magical Girl.

    Costume: At 3rd level, an Exemplar of Harmony gains an additional +1 to her Costume bonus.

    Becoming Hope: At 5th level, an Exemplar of Harmony is constantly an Anthropomorphic Personification, as the class feature, and instead can lower the ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her class level plus her Charisma modifier, spent in 1-minute increments. In addition, the Exemplar of Harmony ceases to age and is functionally immortal - so long as she remains in her anthropomorphic state, if slain she rises from the grave 1 week later in a random place on the material plane up to 5d% from her last location on that plane. Each time after the first each year she rises, she loses one level, as the spell Resurrection. If brought down to her human state by her own will, she can be killed and raised normally.

    Harmonic Resonance (General Feat)
    Prerequisites: Pure of Heart, 6th level
    Benefit: Select one of the following Elements of Harmony. You must follow the code associated with that element. If you break your Code, you take a cumulative -1 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks for 24 hours. Each infraction resets the duration. If you penalty is as large as your Illuminator level, you immediately lose your Magical Girl abilities and must make atonement for your actions. You also know inherently whether performing a certain action would violate your code. In return, you gain a +3 bonus to your Will saves and checks to resist Intimidate checks.

    {table=head]Element|Code
    Honesty|You cannot lie or intentionally conceal information for any reason
    Kindness|You cannot attack enemies unprovoked or deal lethal damage
    Laughter|You must treat others fairly and you cannot attempt to intimidate or attack the character of others
    Generosity|You cannot refuse to lend aid to one in genuine need
    Loyalty|You cannot break any oaths or promises, or refuse the call to aid of a friend
    Hope/Magic|You cannot lose faith in yourself or your friends or give up in the face of adversity[/table]


    So, what do you think? The source material is pretty obvious, but I was considering what would be a good end-game prestige class for Magical Girls. The class is functionally very similar to the Archmage, from which I took several of the abilities, but I think it has its own unique flair.

    You can also sort of see Luna as a Dark Magical Girl, Celestia as a Sempai, the Mysterious Mare-Do-Well as a Costumed Crusader, Twilight has a Mentor Animal (though it's the other way around), Applejack is a Mistbreaker, Pinkie Pie is a Magical Idol, Rarity is perhaps a Prism Knight (gems and all that), and Fluttershy is a mix of the Stargazer and Kofu Shojo (though I know the two are incompatible).

    Rainbow Dash is totally a Magical Girl / Aerial Mage / Exemplar of Harmony :) I totally decided to do this when I read the Aereal Mage and went "Huh, that capstone is totally a Sonic Rainboom".

    If you like it, I'm sure I could easily adapt the class to also work for Dark Magical Girls - perhaps the Exemplar of Discord (Fabrication, Malice, Cynicism, Greed, Apathy, and Isolation, as a Deviantart user puts them) . The Dark Magical Girl could use a fun capstone class for those last 5 levels.

    Great work Selenia, I'm very excited to contribute something to this wonderful homebrew.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronologist View Post
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    The Paragon of Discord

    (spoiler for image size and ponies )

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    ”Mine! MINE!!" "Stop laughing at me!" "It's hopeless" "Your FACE!" "Whatever, I don't care" "I don't see nopony! Nopony at all!" - the last recorded meeting of the Paragons of Avarice, Fear, Despair, Cruelty, Apathy, and Deceit, left to right



    Where there is light, there is darkness. Where some find compassion, other seek only more hatred. In the same way, where there are Exemplars of Harmony, there are the Paragons of Discord, fallen Magical Girls who have stopped seeking the light, and now revel in their own darkness.

    Requirements:
    To become a Paragon of Discord, you must meet the following prerequisites:
    Skills: 18 ranks in Intimidate
    Feat: Discordant Echoes
    Special: Rage of Tears class feature, at least 10 levels in classes that grant or improve Illuminations

    Class Skill List: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha)

    Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

    Paragon of Discord
    Hit Dice: d8

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Illuminations
    1|+1|+0|+0|+2|Anthropomorphic Personification, Fury and Tears, Judgment|---
    2|+2|+0|+0|+3|Judgment|+1 level
    3|+3|+1|+1|+3|Judgment, Costume +1|+1 level
    4|+4|+1|+1|+4|Judgment|+1 level
    5|+5|+1|+1|+4|Judgment, Becoming Despair|---[/table]


    Weapons and Armor Proficiencies: A Paragon of Discord gains no additional proficiency with any kind of weapon or armor.

    Anthropomorphic Personification (Su): At 1st level, a Paragon of Discord selects one of the following, each an exemplary quality that Magical Girls hold dear. It must match her Discord selected by the Discordant Echoes feat. As a full-round action, she can temporarily shed her mortality and become an anthropomorphic personification of her chosen element. Each element grants a number of special benefits, but they all share the same following benefits:

    - Gains the Outsider (Native) type and subtype, replacing her own for the duration, with all the benefits that grants.

    - Incorporeal for the duration, though the Paragon of Discord may concentrate as a free action to lower this quality until the beginning of their next turn.

    - Gain a Fly speed equal to her base land speed. If she already possessed a fly speed, her speed increases by 30 feet.

    - While in a Rage of Tears, you gain a +6 total bonus to Charisma, a +4 total bonus to Dexterity, and a +4 total bonus to Constitution.

    In addition, each Paragon of Discord in this state radiates an aura reaching out 1 mile per Paragon of Discord level, which forces all creatures within the radius to act as if they had your Harmonic Resonance feat, except they get a Will save DC is 20 + your Charisma modifier in order to resist the cumulative penalty. Only evil creatures, however, gain the benefits of your feat.

    A Paragon of Discord can maintain this state for a number of minutes per day equal to their class level plus their Charisma modifier. They can deactivate the state as a free action, but they can only spend time in this state in 1-minute increments.

    Judgment: At 1st level and every level thereafter, a Paragon of Discord learns a technique that allows them to drastically improve their attack Illuminations. These judgments can only be performed while in a Rage of Tears, and once learned, they cannot be changed. Each Judgment can only be used once per Rage of Tears, unless otherwise noted, and you cannot apply more than one Judgment to the same attack.



    Judgments:
    Feel My Pain: You may activate this Judgment if you suffered damage sunce the end of your last turn. The next Illumination you use before the end of your turn that inflicts damage inflicts additional damage equal to 5 times the Illumination’s level, up to a maximum equal to the damage you suffered in the previous round. If your Discord is Cruelty, the limit of damage is instead 10 times the Illumination’s level, and the limit is increased to twice the damage you suffered since last round.

    Your Dreams are Dead: Before using an illumination which deals damage and requires an attack roll, you may declare that you are using this Judgment. Your Illumination effectively gains a critical threat range equal to your Charisma modifier, with a x2 critical. So, if you have a Charisma modifier of +7, the attack threatens a critical hit on a roll of 14-20. You still need to confirm the critical, but if it hits, all damage from the Illumination is doubled, and you gain a +2 to the save DCs of any effects included in the Illumination. If your Discord is Despair/Sorcery, the additional dice from the critical hit are automatically maximized.

    It’s Mine: Before you attack with an Illumination, you may declare that you are using this Judgment. If so, if your attack hits, you may attempt to take an object held or worn by the subject that you can feasibly remove in one smooth motion. Make an opposed level + cha check versus your opponent’s level + dex check, if you succeed, you take the item in one of your hands. If your Discord is Avarice, you gain a +4 bonus to the check, and if you hit with the Judgment but fail to take the object, you may deal your Judgment’s damage directly to that item, in addition to your opponent.

    Why Bother: When you hit with an Illumination, you may declare that you are using this Judgment. The target must make a Fortitude save DC 15 + your Paragon of Discord level + your Charisma modifier or become both fatigued for 1d4 rounds, then they must make a Will save DC 15 + your Paragon of Discord level + your charisma modifier or become sickened for 1d4 rounds. If your Discord is Apathy, then instead of fatigued and sickened, the target is exhausted and nauseated, respectively, and the duration increases by your Paragon of Discord level.

    No Time for Fun and Games: When you hit with this Illumination, you immediately learn the name and effect of every spell, power, or other supernatural ability affecting your target, as well as martial stances. You may then make an opposed Illuminator level + charisma modifier check against a number of those effects equal to your Charisma modifier. If you beat the caster level + attribute modifier of the effect, it is suppressed for 1d4 rounds. If your Discord is Fear, increase your bonus to the check by your Paragon of Discord level, and suppressed effects are instead dispelled.

    Your Life is a Lie: When you hit with an illumination, you may declare the use of this Judgment. Your target must make a DC 15 + your Paragon of Discord level + your Charisma modifier Will save or lose the ability to distinguish friend and foe on the battlefield. Other characters cannot help the affected target distinguish properly, but the target may spend a full-round action attempting to clear their head; each time they do so they gain a cumulative +1 bonus to that save. This ability lasts for 1 minute, or until shaken off. If your Discord is Deceit, you may instead choose for the target to see you as an ally, and all others as enemies. If you choose this option, they instead gain a Will save as a free action at the end of each of their turns, but they take a penalty to saves equal to your Paragon of Discord level, and gain a +2 cumulative bonus to that save each round after the first.

    Extra Judgment: Select one of your known Judgments. You may use that Judgment one additional time each time you use Rage of Tears. You can select this feat more than once, each time you select a different known judgment. Your Rage of Tears lasts one more round than normal.

    Furious Sacrifice: At the beginning of your turn, you may expend two rounds of your Rage of Tears as a Move action in order to recover the use of one of your expended judgments. You may instead choose to recover that judgment as a free action by spending three rounds of Rage of Tears. Your Rage of Tears lasts one more round.

    Feed the Furnace: You may choose to sacrifice the use of a known judgment as a swift action, if you do, your Rage of Tears lasts 1 more round. In addition, your Rage of Tears lasts an additional round normally.



    Illuminations: At 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level, your Illuminations improve as if you gained another level of Dark Magical Girl. At 1st and 5th level, you gain a +1 bonus to your effective Illuminator level and 1 mote, but you do not gain access to more powerful Illuminations.

    Fury and Tears: Paragon of Discord levels stack with Dark Magical Girl levels in order to determine the number of motes gained while in a Rage of Tears, and a Paragon of Discord may add her class levels to the number of rounds she can maintain a Rage of Tears.

    Costume: At 3rd level, a Paragon of Discord gains an additional +1 to her Costume bonus.

    Becoming Despair: At 5th level, a Paragon of Discord is constantly an Anthropomorphic Personification, as the class feature, and instead can lower the ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her class level plus her Charisma modifier, spent in 1-minute increments. In addition, the Paragon of Discord ceases to age and is functionally immortal - so long as she remains in her anthropomorphic state, if slain she rises from the grave 1 week later in a random place on the material plane up to 5d% from her last location on that plane. Each time after the first each year she rises, she loses one level, as the spell Resurrection. If brought down to her human state by her own will, she can be killed and raised normally.

    Discordant Echoes (General Feat)
    Prerequisites: Rage of Tears 6th level
    Benefit: Select one of the following Elements of Discord. You must follow the code associated with that element. If you break your Code, you take a cumulative -1 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks for 24 hours. Each infraction resets the duration. If you penalty is as large as your Illuminator level, you immediately lose your Dark Magical Girl abilities and must make atonement for your actions. You also know inherently whether performing a certain action would violate your code. In return, you gain a +3 bonus to your Will saves and Intimidate checks.

    {table=head]Element|Code
    Deceit|You must lie at all times, constantly altering or omitting information from what you say
    Cruelty|You MUST inflict lethal damage with your attacks, and must make a Will save (DC 15 + 1/2 your class level) when provoked in any way, or else attack that creature
    Fear|You must intimidate in or out of combat when given the opportunity
    Avarice|You cannot perform the aid another action, give anything away without appropriate compensation, and you are Hostile to any creature that attempts to take one of your possessions
    Apathy|You cannot honor any agreement you make, and are loathe to make such agreements. You refuse to follow any rules.
    Despair/Sorcery|You must sow the seeds of despair in everyone you meet, making them think their goals are impossible[/table]



    The class is designed to be as powerful as, but functionally very different from the Exemplar of Harmony. It shares basically the same core qualities (Anthropomorphic Personification, Becoming X, requires similar skills and feats, etc) but their approach to combat is vastly different. An Exemplar of Harmony is versatile, has (probably) the highest level and most powerful Illuminations, and recovers them extremely quickly. She's a steadfast, versatile warrior with plenty of versatility (especially since she has 10 more class levels and prestige class levels to play around with and customize her approach to battle).

    The Paragon of Discord is totally different. They've finished Dark Magical Girl, and they have a ton of defensive boosts from that. They don't have nearly as much staying power, so what do they do? They become shock troopers. They come in fast, ignore your attacks, and hit like a truck, and that's exactly what Judgments are supposed to help with. Extended Rage of Tears is just so they can recover some of their Judgments, or trade that for longer staying power. At very high levels, fights can sometimes get quite ridiculous, and having two or three more rounds before you're out of mojo can turn the tide of battle.

    I made the judgments open to any Discord, but certain discords can use them better. It makes them different from the Exemplars of Harmony; I don't want it to be a single class with alternate class features, I want them to feel very different from each other.

    What do you think?
    I am continually stunned by the effort people put into making homebrews of homebrew. This could carry on until the end of time, and I would not grasp it fully.

    But seriously, this is brilliant. You've even formatted it in the standard magical girl format style, which is ohmygoddessyouwouldnotbeleive how many hearts your earned. Were this thread occupied by as many green-pajama-clad fairy heroes as ponies, they would totally be calling collective shenanigains on that heart windfall. I can think of a couple minor tweaks (most notably, reducing Personification's radius to something smaller than the miles scale... and bold/italics tags), but you've done an excellent job of capturing the spirit of the class (and the PrC, in the case of Despair).

    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    A couple of quick questions: one, was it ever agreed on what skill should Radiant Focus use in Pathfinder?
    And two, trying to both convert the class to PF and format it for print, I notices one thing - Costume max bonuses are increased every 3 levels, which should make Costume+7 available on level 20. Would it be too much a boost to justify breaking the pattern? I doubt it, honestly.
    On Radiant Focus in Pathfinder: Concentration actually exists in Pathfinder - it's just a glorified caster level check. Simply give the magical girl a +3 bonus when radiant focusing to compensate for not having the 'skill edge'.

    On costumes... I admit, I am honestly not sure why it does not go to +7. It will go to +7. That will be a thing very shortly.
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    RE barriers and balance:
    I just skimmed the illuminations list again and the barriers are nice although they ARE kinda overpowered.

    As a general rule, anything that would restrict enemy actions should cost at least a standard action. Swift action action denial is pretty damned insane.

    If you want an "instant barrier" sort of thing, perhaps make a variant of Fragile Shell that is immediate action use but lasts only until start of next turn and costs a bunch and has half to one-third hp of the standard action version.
    And range like 10ft or something.


    Swift actions stand in the grey area between almost-free (move) and reactions (immediate). Using this in ways beyond short temporary buffs/debuffs is not good. The other barriers are fine, but Fragile Shell is not.

    Not unless you're gunning for Celerity levels of brokenness. As it is right now, I would still take Celerity over Fragile Shell, but not by much. In some not-that-rare situations (a ranged skirmishing battle in complex terrain), I would consider Fragile Shell BETTER than Celerity.


    Example use:
    Assuming the MG can afford the 1 mote / round cost of continuous casting, she just summons a Fragile Shell around enemies to trap them and doesn't maintain it. On their round, they have to break through, cutting into actions, restricting movement and serving as an unavoidable damage debuff.
    Worse still, if you can afford more than 1 mote /round, you can attempt to heal the barrier as it is attacked for more damage debuff and potentially neutralizing one enemy.

    For reference, if the MG's allies wish to attack trapped opponents, they just Delay (you can wait until after someone else) until after that opponent's initiative and whack away after that opponent has downed the barrier.
    If the opponent has failed to drop the barrier, they delay until after the MG and on the MG's turn the barrier goes away and SHE delays until after her allies have whacked the enemy.
    With this and some other initiative shenanigans, the barrier doesn't prevent allies from attacking but prevents enemies.
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-09-09 at 08:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Swift actions are however a pretty valuable resource for the Magical Girl, since she gets lots of decent options for them.
    So making Barriers require a swift-action upkeep each round seems a pretty good way to restric their usage.

    In addition, i am a firm supporter of the idea that you can pass trough Fragil Shell without attacking it. Options include
    - requiring a free-action, part of movementstrenght-check to break trough the barrier
    - likewise, a will- or fortitude saving throw to pass trough it
    - allowing people to attack the barrier as part of a charge - if you charge someone behind it, you attack the barrier, if you do enough damage, you charge to your target and attack it normally.
    That way it is no longer denies any actions for some enemies - but not all, thus retaining value as battlefield control.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    I think allowing a strength check to move through (and break it) would make sense and mitigate it, but it really really needs to be standard action unless the check is easy (10 + cha mod to break could be balanced for swift action, roughly 50% chance of failing). If the check is easy, then it goes down in power alot and might not be worth the motes.

    It could be buffed in terms of hp (2x) and strength check required (15 + cha), or increase in range, if you make it a standard and increase the mote cost to 2 so it can't get spammed as easily. That is roughly in line with the amount of action denial granted by BC spells (eg. Black Tentacles).
    Seriously, it needs to be effective, meaning it locks down enemies and BCs very well, but needs to subtract alot from the MG's offense to keep it up. That means standard actions and mote cost.


    That MGs have useful things to do with swift actions is a point. But most of those are numerical buffs/debuffs, and not large ones either (large meaning 10+). Those are fine, but trading swifts for enemy standards is always going to be a good deal compared to those unless it's a target rich environment.

    ...

    Oh wow, I must have missed Starlight Rampart. XD
    Same objection applies to that one, only that at high levels, tactical teleport gets semi-common anyway and tactical abilities start to get overshadowed so it doesn't matter so much for L4 illuminations.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    One question: Isn't it supposed to be Swallow Flyer, not Swallow Buster?
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    I just want to say that this class and everything associated with it is, without a doubt, the best thing ever.

    But seriously, reading the OP was a real joy and made me really excited! I almost want to find a different group somewhere just so I can play it!
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    I made a few changes to the Exemplar of Harmony and Paragon of Discord classes. I reduced the range of their harmony/discord feat ability to 100 feet per class level, I altered the Deceit Judgment, and I changed the Apathy Discord into the Betrayal Discord, as per Owrthro's insightful comments.

    I think the classes are generic enough in ability and premise to be easily adapted to any number of high-level magical girls, with Madoka Magicka being the main inspiration and example.

    I agree that creating a barrier as a swift action is a pretty powerful ability, even for Tier 3. Perhaps instead of actually creating a barrier, it could be an immediate action that does one of the following:
    a) grant concealment to a single target against a single attack, or
    b) grants temporary hit points equal to your Magical Girl level to a single target, but only against a single attack

    You could create a level 2 or 3 Illumination that increased the benefits of the barrier to total concealment and maybe double the temporary hit points.

    After all, barriers in Magical Girl shows tend to either deflect incoming blasts, or protect the user from harm until it's shattered. I think this would be a better alternative to creating an actual physical barrier, which would generally be more versatile and powerful.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Something about Stargazer's bugging me: Can the Soulbound Companion be used as a Scout of sorts, or would it have no sences to be used.

    Another question: Does the Stargazer's Int replacement also applies to any PrCs related to Magical Girl, or does it isolate itself to just the Magical Girl itself?
    Last edited by LoneMage210; 2012-09-15 at 11:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Something that's been on my mind for a while: How would a thrown weapon Device work? My gut tells me it falls under the category of Spirit Shooter, but that only allows for one weapon, not the 4-5 needed for use.

    I guess my main questions boil down to these:
    -Is a thrown weapon Device legal?
    -If so, does it require being a Spirit Shooter?
    -What happens after you throw it? Does it return? Do you need to go yank it out of the enemy/pick it up off the ground?
    -If you get multiple attacks per round, can your device only be one of them?

    For my suggestions on how to make it work, if you can't think of anything/already know and I just missed it, here they are:
    -Thrown weapons can be "called back" as a move action (swift if you have Quick Draw). When this happens, they simply appear in the Magical Girl's hand. Exact effect varies, but it requires a free hand to do.
    -If your Device is a weapon that can only be used as a thrown weapon without penalty (For example, javelins get a penalty if used for melee, but daggers can be either, so they don't count), you can have enough copies of it existant at one time to be able to make a full attack. Example: a level 3 MG with darts as her Device could have only 1, but the same MG at level 17 could have 3.
    -A Spirit Shot with a thrown Device (if it works that way) has the Device bypass up to CHA Modifier points of Damage Resistance, even DR/-. This costs 1 Mote per copy of the device being used that turn.
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Where and wehn can we expect to see Tome of Radiance? I am excited to upgrade Umiko.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Wrong thread, maybe? I haven't heard of "Tome of radiance" before.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Sort of right thread, just posted ahead of time and in the wrong place.

    Trace,

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    Selinia will let them know when she lets them know. Be happy with what we've got over on the playtest thread for now, ok?
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    Damn you Snowfire. I cried.
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    T_T I swear, you just made me cry.
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    Well, here's another for your sig, Snowfire.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    "ahead of time"?

    "Tome of <relevant word to class>"?!


    *EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*!
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Hey, I wanted to say something to Selinia, here, about the class. I'll preface it with saying that I've been dodging around the homebrew forum without ever looking at this class, mostly because I never liked the "Magical Girl" archetype present in a lot of anime. That aside, I think this is a wonderful class, that is nicely designed. One thing that I noticed though, and I don't know if it was on purpose, was that you never actually stated that any of the Magical Girl class features couldn't be used in Heavy armour. Which means that effectively they are 2 feats away from wearing Full-Plate with all of their other bonuses.

    I'm not going to pretend I've read all the comments, so you may already be aware, and if I have pointed out an error I would caution you to think before you fix it. I see a lot of 'brewers banning heavier armours outright, because it didn't fit how they imagined the class. I think that that is a bad way to design a class, and I wish more of them would at least leave open the possibility of spending a feat to wear armour.

    And speaking of possibilities, why is the magical girl not able to choose an Exotic weapon for their Device? It seems like some kind of Eagle Claw/Spiked Chain/Repeater Crossbow would be exactly the kind of thing to be wielded by a magic teenage paladin.

    So again, I may not appreciate the general fictional genre, but your class does a good job of emulating it and is well designed. Kudos and a biscuit to you.
    "Pause you who read this, and think for a moment of the long chain of iron or gold, of thorns or flowers, that would never have bound you, but for the formation of the first link on one memorable day" --Charles Dickens

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    You are actually wrong on all accounts

    While the Magical Girl can indeed wear heavy armor and use most of her class features, she can ordinarily only use Light Amor for her Costume (which is pretty much her second-most important class feature).

    However, there IS a feat that allows her to use Medium and even Heavy Armor for her Costume, thus directly supporting the idea.

    As for Exotic Weapons, look at the Devicer-Archetype - those can use Exotic Weapons for their device, including free proficiency.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by GFawkes View Post
    Something that's been on my mind for a while: How would a thrown weapon Device work? My gut tells me it falls under the category of Spirit Shooter, but that only allows for one weapon, not the 4-5 needed for use.

    I guess my main questions boil down to these:
    -Is a thrown weapon Device legal?
    -If so, does it require being a Spirit Shooter?
    -What happens after you throw it? Does it return? Do you need to go yank it out of the enemy/pick it up off the ground?
    -If you get multiple attacks per round, can your device only be one of them?

    For my suggestions on how to make it work, if you can't think of anything/already know and I just missed it, here they are:
    -Thrown weapons can be "called back" as a move action (swift if you have Quick Draw). When this happens, they simply appear in the Magical Girl's hand. Exact effect varies, but it requires a free hand to do.
    -If your Device is a weapon that can only be used as a thrown weapon without penalty (For example, javelins get a penalty if used for melee, but daggers can be either, so they don't count), you can have enough copies of it existant at one time to be able to make a full attack. Example: a level 3 MG with darts as her Device could have only 1, but the same MG at level 17 could have 3.
    -A Spirit Shot with a thrown Device (if it works that way) has the Device bypass up to CHA Modifier points of Damage Resistance, even DR/-. This costs 1 Mote per copy of the device being used that turn.
    Well, I can't speak officially, but I'm currently working on a Thrown Device-based archetype, tentatively called Kaitou. The question I'm currently pondering is, how would thrown devices interact with Strikes...

    Oh, by the way, I'm actually compiling my own version of "Tome of", called in my case "Tome of Luminous Might", specifically made for pathfinder.
    There are all kinds of small issues coming up - for instance, Improved Mettle and Improved FlyBy Attack not existing in Pathfinder - and I made a number of small, mostly cosmetic changes, but there is one kinda large one, which I don't want to make without consulting authors - namely, I really feel Stargazer should be an alternate class, not an archetype. Your opinion?

    edit:
    One more thing, concerning prestige classes: At certain levels, they increase "all aspects of their illuminations", at others, only "evoker level and mote pool". So, for example, an MG10/CosCr5/AerMg5 would have 16 levels of "all aspects" and 4 of "level/motes only". So, check my math on this:

    Mote pool 20
    Evoker Level 20
    Mote regen 4/turn (as a MG16)
    Illuminations prepared
    3 least / 3 lesser / 2 greater / 1 grand (again, as MG16)
    Is that correct? ('Cause if it is, Nanoha, who most definitely has some AerMg levels, would never get her most iconic Illumination :-))
    Last edited by jamieth; 2012-10-01 at 06:16 AM.
    Tome of Radiance, a Magical Girl sourcebook for 3.5/PF.

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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    Well, I can't speak officially, but I'm currently working on a Thrown Device-based archetype, tentatively called Kaitou. The question I'm currently pondering is, how would thrown devices interact with Strikes...

    Oh, by the way, I'm actually compiling my own version of "Tome of", called in my case "Tome of Luminous Might", specifically made for pathfinder.
    There are all kinds of small issues coming up - for instance, Improved Mettle and Improved FlyBy Attack not existing in Pathfinder - and I made a number of small, mostly cosmetic changes, but there is one kinda large one, which I don't want to make without consulting authors - namely, I really feel Stargazer should be an alternate class, not an archetype. Your opinion?

    edit:
    One more thing, concerning prestige classes: At certain levels, they increase "all aspects of their illuminations", at others, only "evoker level and mote pool". So, for example, an MG10/CosCr5/AerMg5 would have 16 levels of "all aspects" and 4 of "level/motes only". So, check my math on this:

    Mote pool 20
    Evoker Level 20
    Mote regen 4/turn (as a MG16)
    Illuminations prepared
    3 least / 3 lesser / 2 greater / 1 grand (again, as MG16)
    Is that correct? ('Cause if it is, Nanoha, who most definitely has some AerMg levels, would never get her most iconic Illumination :-))
    That is correct. And Epic Levels.

    Tome of Radiance is a rewrite of the baseline setup of the MG. More like a new edition than the more tame "errata" that the last updates were.
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    Default Re: Friendship Through Superior Firepower! Magical Girl Base Class, Set Up! [3.5]

    My bad. Should have read forum and figured that out for myself - no patience, me. I wouldn't really describe our campaign as a playtest though....
    Last edited by Princess Tracy; 2012-10-06 at 08:39 PM.

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