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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I am not a crazy survivalist, nor do I claim to be a ridiculous genius.
    I don't have to be to realize that if the dead are living and trying to eat my brains, I should probably not wander off into the darkness unarmed. I have the skill "Have watched a horror movie at some point in my life".
    And Rick and Shane are cops. They should have at least a marginal spread of training.
    In fairness, you have the more specific skill "has watched zombie movies", which by Word of God no one in the Walking Dead universe has.

    But really, like I said, every so often people feel they need space, or don't want to relieve themselves in front of others, or are simply not thinking. They're mostly civilians who have gotten lucky, and their personal habits and need for privacy haven't changed enough in the relatively small amount of time they've been on the run. Rick and Shane do have some training, which is why they're in charge and the group has stayed alive as long as it has, but being a small town cop does not immediately translate into running a group that has to stay on the move and alert at all times with no support whatsoever from the outside world.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    She doesn't have to say she's pregnant. She merely has to say "Gee, it'd be nice if I could check, just in case. Also, we should probably use condoms."

    And even if she does want to keep her secret...well, she confided in one person to get her the test. Why not have the guy keep watch?
    Asking specifically for a pregnancy test is going to give away her secret, however she phrases it. Condoms, less so; but, well, telling her husband they have to go back to using those is likely to rock the boat, which Lori is trying not to do. Not saying it's logical or optimal, but it's perfectly believable.

    Also, while she did confide in Glen that she wanted it, asking him to take the watch for her while she checks is gettig pretty personal with this secret that she really wants nobody to know. She had to ask the one time, but she could get away without asking the other.

    And really, this particular instance is not that dumb a move. She goes to check in the dark, true, but it's obviously bright enough to see by considering that she can see whether the test is positive or not, she didn't go out of earshot of the camp/house, and she did it essentially in the middle of a field where she could have seen any walkers coming a hundred yards away. It wasn't all that dangerous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    They fail the majority of the time.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree, there; it's been months since the outbreak, and we've seen only a small fraction of those nights. But again, they're civilians, and one or two people on watch can't see everything all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    At a minimum, it makes Shane look like a much more evil, selfish SOB if it wasn't really, clearly necessary.
    Shane is a selfish SOB in most ways already. I wasn't particularly surprised when he did that, and I like the ambiguity as to whether it was necessary or not. I do think, though, that Shane certainly believed it was clearly necessary.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Right. I'm very, very unhappy with her char in the movie. She's coming across less as competent, and more as emotionally unstable and dangerous.

    The casualness with which they respond to rather severe mistakes seems...unreasonable. In a survival situation, I'd think people would react stronger to such dangerous mishaps, if anything. More tension, etc.
    Yeah, it's pretty annoying in this case. Andrea doesn't really seem competent at all so much as depressed and petulant, yet the most that happens is Rick being a little short with her. Hell, Dale might as well have encouraged her! After she shot a man in the head, disobeying everyone else's orders because she wants to be Annie Oakley all of a sudden. And hell, she could easily have hit any of the others who were only a couple yards away when she took that shot! Ugh, we'd better see her getting dressed down in the next episode.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Meh, the only real reason for her not to shoot him in-character is because herschel doesn't like guns. Not particuarly stupid for her to ignore that. The rest of the group had just barely got to him and hadn't gotten into a real conversation, they had really just established that he was, in fact, Daryl. I can understand her missing that while focusing on lining up a difficult shot.
    Or because gunshots draw zombies and waste their ammo store. or because she's new at using rifles and could easily have missed or hit someone else by accident. Or because she knew Daryl was still missing and shooting people without being able to make sure they're a zombie is a big no-no when you have the time. Or because, you know, everyone who actually knew what they were doing told her not to shoot.

    I can understand her shooting. What I can't understand is why the group was not immensely angry with her for doing so and immediately took away her gun. Most of their mistakes make sense, but they were already worried that Andrea shouldn't have guns, she disobeyed a direct order, she nearly killed their best hunter and tracker, and for no better reason than trying to prove she's a hardass. It was still a completely boneheaded move, one which the rest of the group is inordinately calm in responding to.
    Last edited by Da'Shain; 2011-11-17 at 04:19 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    I'm just trying to figure out how the military failed. Because when they started dropping napalm in the streets, the military was pretty much shooting to kill at that point. And a bunch of my military friends say that their squads talk so much about zombie surviving tactics that enough squads should have known from the beginning to go for head shots and everything.

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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    I'm just trying to figure out how the military failed. Because when they started dropping napalm in the streets, the military was pretty much shooting to kill at that point. And a bunch of my military friends say that their squads talk so much about zombie surviving tactics that enough squads should have known from the beginning to go for head shots and everything.
    Zombie movies, or at least the explosion of popular zombie stories, do not exist in the Walking Dead universe. Hence why this particular military definitely did not talk about the situation beforehand.

    Really, though, the military probably shouldn't have been overrun completely unless they were all idiots. But maybe they weren't, and Shane's right; heck, the military could possibly still be around even in the comics, and just haven't gotten to that part of Georgia yet.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    EDIT:
    Or because gunshots draw zombies and waste their ammo store. or because she's new at using rifles and could easily have missed or hit someone else by accident. Or because she knew Daryl was still missing and shooting people without being able to make sure they're a zombie is a big no-no when you have the time. Or because, you know, everyone who actually knew what they were doing told her not to shoot.

    I can understand her shooting. It was still a completely boneheaded move, one which the rest of the group is inordinately calm in responding to.
    Daryl looked a lot like a walker there, even walking like one. He also left on a horse. Understandable mistake, and not one to blow out of proportion. Rick's the only one that told her not to shoot, and the only reason for that was because Herschel doesn't like guns, not because he knew something she didn't thanks to experience. She was confident in her abilties and rightfully so it seems, it was a good shot. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, but she was trying to be useful, so I understand why they're not tar and feathering her or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    I'm just trying to figure out how the military failed. Because when they started dropping napalm in the streets, the military was pretty much shooting to kill at that point. And a bunch of my military friends say that their squads talk so much about zombie surviving tactics that enough squads should have known from the beginning to go for head shots and everything.
    Really the military failing is a conceit that's pretty much required for zombie movies/shows. Otherwise you have no movie/show. Kinda like how faster-than-light travel is mostly required for Sci-fi.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    He's sneaking off to have sex with Herschel's daughter, respecting an request like go into the barn is not something Glenn is likely to care about.
    He's not really portrayed as much of a bad boy. If that had been one of the rules, he would have picked a different spot. It isn't a flagrant disregard for all rules, he's just the timid guy who wants a relationship.

    Taking the horse to look for a lost girl isn't likely to cause Herschel to break off all contact, so Daryl probably doesn't care if it makes a bit of friction since they're not planning to stay long.
    Swiping peoples stuff in a survival situation is a fairly bad move. Actually, taking peoples stuff without asking is a dumb move in general. Most people learn this quite early in life, and at least refrain from swiping major stuff from people they're living with.

    How many other reactions toward walkers has she had?
    You get an on-camera shot of her shocked reaction at the well zombie.

    Right, because that wasn't just the opening of their converstation that lead to arguing about whether or not they should be searching at all or anything. They just talked about their high school love life and cut to another scene.
    Time spent on each was about equal. There is a giant pile of talking about things that is probably supposed to be characterization, and might actually be so if the chars were ones we wanted to empathize with at all.

    Really? Because I saw them noticing the walkers when they were still far enough away for them to get to hiding. Which would be the goal of keeping watch.
    Too close to call out to each other or get to safety, resulting in people scattering, having to fight zombies, etc. No. This was not a success.

    No they weren't just waiting, they were looking for things left over that they could use to survive.
    The point is, you don't NEED to scatter to do that. You have LOTS of time. Nor do you need to have the kids scatter into this unknown, dangerous territory.

    Oh, and when you found the drinking water, your first action should probably not be gleefully pouring it over you. If supplies are that critical, that seems like a poor call.

    Note that they didn't learn from losing the girl, either. They've got the boy unattended looting stuff off a dead body immediately afterward. Had that been a zombie, he'd have been done.

    Not nearby the camp. And I must say, the camp looked rather similar to the one from the comics.
    The camp only existed briefly in the comics. All this mucking about with the winnebego breaking down, etc...there wasn't a single breakdown anywhere close to this point. They sleep in it cause it's hardwalled and safe. I'm sure if the vehicle was a giant pile of suck, they would have switched to another one.

    There are literally thousands of other vehicles they could use. There is absolutely no reason not to have as many vehicles as you need for any purpose.

    Atlanta does, but the area they were camping out didn't have anything nearby.
    They are already aware that zombies wander. The fact that you aren't immediately in a city does not negate that you're near a very, very high population area. With LOTS of population all around it. It's not a rural mountaintop or anything, it's just a wooded area that doesn't happen to have apartment buildings right next to it.

    I'll take your word for it then. They still weren't just sitting around for some extended period of time after seeing the first walker thinking they were perfectly safe, Rick leaves pretty much immediately to go get the guns and Merle.
    They have a number of days. He goes at what, the beginning of episode three, and the camp gets swamped the end of episode 4? And in that time, no effort was made to secure the camp at all.

    Now, again, I'd be perfectly ok with them trying to secure it and not having enough time. That would be reasonable, but it would still have them behaving in a rational fashion.

    And since the amount of camping in show is similar, it's must also be minimal.
    They were camping for 5/6 episodes in season 1. That's a ton. In book 1, everyone was already getting firearms and stuff. Something we're just now getting to in season 2. Competence is being displayed much later, if at all, in the show.

    The books also cover a larger period of time than the show has, allowing for more character development. I've heard a number of people who have also read all the books theorizing that we're seeing the beginnings of Angela's development to what she is in the comic.
    Angela was never at this level of stupid, though.

    Not really notable, as Herschel and crew as still alive and well and she's still right nearby the house.
    Without guns. It'll take some notable time to help her if something goes wrong.

    *Facepalm* Right, she has no reason to not tell her husband she was sleeping with his best friend and is now pregnant. There's no potential drama there.
    [/sarcasm]
    When your only reason for including something is "for the drama", you end up with a hackneyed show. OBVIOUSLY, they're going for drama and tension. It does not excuse stupidity to get drama and tension.

    Nor does she need to tell her husband she slept with Shane at all. They slept together. That's plenty of reason for a test right there.

    So they should do things like they were doing, keeping watch for any more walkers.
    Yes, trying to make sure the well doesn't get contaminated in case it isn't already is just doing it for funsies.
    Please explain how lowering a person down to the zombies as bait(their words, not mine) will result in that.

    You offered no other viable ones.
    Not living next to woods that allow them to sneak up on you,

    Living somewhere other than tents.

    Walling somewhere off.

    Rick saw the first one when it was alone, or with just a couple of others, so even if the herd had only been one or two walkers, they still would have been aware of them.
    The person on watch saw Daryl, another example of them doing their job.
    I don't know who saw Daryl first, and wiki doesn't say.

    Meh, the only real reason for her not to shoot him in-character is because herschel doesn't like guns. Not particuarly stupid for her to ignore that. The rest of the group had just barely got to him and hadn't gotten into a real conversation, they had really just established that he was, in fact, Daryl. I can understand her missing that while focusing on lining up a difficult shot.
    How about...everyone had told her specifically not to shoot, they clearly had the situation well in hand? How about the fact that it involves shooting through her own people? Seriously, they JUST had a firearms accident.

    Maybe, could just be they didn't go to the heavily napalmed parts of the city.
    You literally see flames billowing above the skyline all throughout the city as helicopters napalm it with missiles(yes, I'm aware that the previous sentence is ridiculous. Technological gripes should also be directed to AMC.) There is no plausible reason why the city was not burned to the ground with that level of fire. Even if they somehow missed a bit...fire tends to spread.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Daryl looked a lot like a walker there, even walking like one. He also left on a horse. Understandable mistake, and not one to blow out of proportion. Rick's the only one that told her not to shoot, and the only reason for that was because Herschel doesn't like guns, not because he knew something she didn't thanks to experience. She was confident in her abilties and rightfully so it seems, it was a good shot. Hindsight's 20/20 and all that, but she was trying to be useful, so I understand why they're not tar and feathering her or anything.
    Unless I'm misremembering, at least Rick and Dale told her not to shoot, and I believe Shane did as well. Regardless, though, she was told not to shoot by at the least the acknowledged leader of the group. Also IIRC, Rick does not give a specific reason not to shoot, and I seriously doubt that it's only because of Hershel's aversion to guns. It's a waste of ammo, and it makes a very loud noise that could draw other walkers, AND Andrea is a new shooter trying for a fairly long distance shot. We have no indication that anyone else thinks or knows she's a good shot yet, nor much in the way of evidence that she is. If it had been a walker, she still would've wasted that bullet because that shot would not have killed it. It was a good shot at a human; at a walker, it was useless.

    If she was only trying to be useful, she would've been satisfied with spotting the "walker" and letting the others deal with it when they said they would. She was trying to grandstand and prove something, which simply ended up proving that she should not have a gun.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    Zombie movies, or at least the explosion of popular zombie stories, do not exist in the Walking Dead universe. Hence why this particular military definitely did not talk about the situation beforehand.

    Really, though, the military probably shouldn't have been overrun completely unless they were all idiots. But maybe they weren't, and Shane's right; heck, the military could possibly still be around even in the comics, and just haven't gotten to that part of Georgia yet.
    This show is supposed to take place in a parallel universe right that is otherwise mostly the same as ours. How the heck does the people not know anything about zombies despite them being in lore and legends since forever?
    And yes, I think some military platoons survived and set up somewhere. Atleast, if they want to break out of the "Military being completely useless in this type of scenario" sterotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Really the military failing is a conceit that's pretty much required for zombie movies/shows. Otherwise you have no movie/show. Kinda like how faster-than-light travel is mostly required for Sci-fi.
    I know it's required that military fails. What I hate is that they never explain how they fail. One thing I liked about the zombie game "Left 4 Dead 2" and the movie "I am Legend" is that the virus is implied to be airborne, with the survivors being immune. This meant that containing a zombie outbreak is much harder since bullets don't help much there. Sure, there's gas masks, but it just means there are that many more zombies everywhere, making the zombie overwhelming option that much more believable.

    I guess what I'm saying is I just hope they explain where the military failed in this. Because air support vs a non-airborne virus that can be stopped with bullets, I put my money on the air support.

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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    EDIT: You know what? This is going nowhere and has been all day, I'm just going to bow out now, save us both some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    Unless I'm misremembering, at least Rick and Dale told her not to shoot, and I believe Shane did as well. Regardless, though, she was told not to shoot by at the least the acknowledged leader of the group. Also IIRC, Rick does not give a specific reason not to shoot, and I seriously doubt that it's only because of Hershel's aversion to guns. It's a waste of ammo, and it makes a very loud noise that could draw other walkers, AND Andrea is a new shooter trying for a fairly long distance shot. We have no indication that anyone else thinks or knows she's a good shot yet, nor much in the way of evidence that she is. If it had been a walker, she still would've wasted that bullet because that shot would not have killed it. It was a good shot at a human; at a walker, it was useless.
    Angela asks why and Rick specifically says "Herschel says he wants to take care of walkers", that leaves the issue of why they're going to kill it with melee weapons then, but eh. And given the sun glare in the scope, it was a good shot regardless.

    If she was only trying to be useful, she would've been satisfied with spotting the "walker" and letting the others deal with it when they said they would. She was trying to grandstand and prove something, which simply ended up proving that she should not have a gun.
    So she can't be trying to prove to be useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    I know it's required that military fails. What I hate is that they never explain how they fail. One thing I liked about the zombie game "Left 4 Dead 2" and the movie "I am Legend" is that the virus is implied to be airborne, with the survivors being immune. This meant that containing a zombie outbreak is much harder since bullets don't help much there. Sure, there's gas masks, but it just means there are that many more zombies everywhere, making the zombie overwhelming option that much more believable.

    I guess what I'm saying is I just hope they explain where the military failed in this. Because air support vs a non-airborne virus that can be stopped with bullets, I put my money on the air support.
    I doubt they will because I doubt there's a good reason why. Maybe they'll come up with some though.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-11-17 at 08:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    They don't need to know advanced tropes or anything, they could honestly get by on "stop making the same mistakes we already made". People go wandering off alone tend to get eaten? We should stop doing that.
    True, and this is why they fail the "common sense" test, as I mentioned. I was just pointing out that "has seen a horror movie" is an unfair comparison to make.

    At the moment, the only competent party members are Glenn(though he looses points for agreeing to be inexplicably lowered to a zombie) and Daryl. Honestly, why Daryl hasn't decided he'd be a better leader is a bit beyond me.
    I was about done with the show when Daryl got shot (until the reveal of only being grazed)- Rick may be better at getting people to follow his lead, but I'd be all for Daryl getting the job of actually running operations in the field.

    Glen gets a lot of points for being willing to repeatably go out on dangerous missions, but he still agrees to some really dumb stuff.

    Dale also tries to keep some sort of moral sensibilities going, which gets some points from me as a character, even if I wouldn't want him leading the group.

    I think it's interesting that characters are allowed to be flawed. Glen is brave and knows what he's good at, but lacks the backbone to force discussion rather than just agreeing to whatever harebrained plan the others come up with. Daryl is really good at the whole woodsman thing, but can't lead the group because he lacks the interpersonal skills to get people to follow him other than by bullying them. Dale's heart is in the right place, but I have a feeling that his attempts to always do the right thing morally is seriously going to cause them problems later.

    Now, if some of these things were more on the forefront rather than the more glaring common-sense problems, that'd make for a better show.

    Edit to add:
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    This show is supposed to take place in a parallel universe right that is otherwise mostly the same as ours. How the heck does the people not know anything about zombies despite them being in lore and legends since forever?
    I'd say that a single-point change in the universe (the lack of George Romero's Night of the Living Dead) would be a big enough change to keep zombies - at least zombies of the kind used in this show - out of people's awareness. Zombies of "lore and legends" have little in common with post-Romero versions as far as I know.
    Last edited by WalkingTarget; 2011-11-17 at 05:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Angela asks why and Rick specifically says "Herschel says he wants to take care of walkers", that leaves the issue of why they're going to kill it with melee weapons then, but eh. And given the sun glare in the scope, it was a good shot regardless.

    So she can't be trying to prove to be useful?
    Either they were going to herd it to Hershel somehow or that was simply the excuse Rick hit upon to get Andrea not to fire. Whatever the reason, though (and the ones I brought up are good reasons not to fire even if they're not the specific ones used), she was told not to fire and the situation was well in hand. Yes, it was a good shot, but not good enough if the shot had actually been warranted, which it still wasn't.

    She's been told not to fire. She can't actually see the face of the figure who's coming, although it IS clearly dragging something which walkers tend not to do. There is at least one person still missing from camp, and likely to have been missing for longer than was agreed on (all the other searchers seemed to be back). She is new to shooting rifles. The rest of the group is all only a couple yards away when she does finally fire. She fires.

    This is not someone who is ready to be carrying a scoped rifle. She might have been trying to prove she was useful, yes -- she failed, because while she's a pretty good shot, she's unreliable and didn't even try to determine whether she should fire or not.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingTarget View Post
    I'd say that a single-point change in the universe (the lack of George Romero's Night of the Living Dead) would be a big enough change to keep zombies - at least zombies of the kind used in this show - out of people's awareness. Zombies of "lore and legends" have little in common with post-Romero versions as far as I know.
    Eh. Good point. But depending on military awareness, I would think the moment one of them found out that headshots = lethal, the entire army would be doing just that once they broadcasted it to everyone.

    And if not, I'd still like to point out my airsupport option. Headshotting is the simpler option. Dropping tons of bombs on them is another that gets the same results.
    Last edited by Silverraptor; 2011-11-17 at 05:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    Either they were going to herd it to Hershel somehow or that was simply the excuse Rick hit upon to get Andrea not to fire. Whatever the reason, though (and the ones I brought up are good reasons not to fire even if they're not the specific ones used), she was told not to fire and the situation was well in hand. Yes, it was a good shot, but not good enough if the shot had actually been warranted, which it still wasn't.

    She's been told not to fire. She can't actually see the face of the figure who's coming, although it IS clearly dragging something which walkers tend not to do. There is at least one person still missing from camp, and likely to have been missing for longer than was agreed on (all the other searchers seemed to be back). She is new to shooting rifles. The rest of the group is all only a couple yards away when she does finally fire. She fires.

    This is not someone who is ready to be carrying a scoped rifle. She might have been trying to prove she was useful, yes -- she failed, because while she's a pretty good shot, she's unreliable and didn't even try to determine whether she should fire or not.
    Side note: Dragging something? The only thing he was dragging was his leg, like a walker would.

    I'm not saying it's the optimal choice for her to make, because it wasn't, but it's an understandable one that doesn't require her to be incredibly stupid and why there's no big blow up made over it.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Side note: Dragging something? The only thing he was dragging was his leg, like a walker would.

    I'm not saying it's the optimal choice for her to make, because it wasn't, but it's an understandable one that doesn't require her to be incredibly stupid and why there's no big blow up made over it.
    I actually also remember him dragging something along behind him when she was looking through the rifle scope. I was thinking, "Come on lady, he's dragging something behind him."
    Last edited by Silverraptor; 2011-11-17 at 05:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    *re-watches scene*

    Ah, he did have his crossbow dragging. Which is a bit tough to make out and could easily be something caught on the walker. Also, Rick didn't even want Shane and T-dog going out with the melee weapons because Herschel wanted to handle the walkers, and only went out himself after they ignored him. So everyone who's name was not Dale wasn't listening to Rick at that moment. At that point, Rick took a pistol and was ready to shoot Daryl himself.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    *re-watches scene*

    Ah, he did have his crossbow dragging. Which is a bit tough to make out and could easily be something caught on the walker. Also, Rick didn't even want Shane and T-dog going out with the melee weapons because Herschel wanted to handle the walkers, and only went out himself after they ignored him. So everyone who's name was not Dale wasn't listening to Rick at that moment. At that point, Rick took a pistol and was ready to shoot Daryl himself.
    Well, the sun was in their eyes. Besides, melee weapons vs 1 walker are prefered since you don't want to waste ammo.

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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Really the military failing is a conceit that's pretty much required for zombie movies/shows. Otherwise you have no movie/show. Kinda like how faster-than-light travel is mostly required for Sci-fi.
    I get the military failing conceit...but like all conceits, you should draw attention away from them, rather than to them, and try to make them sound plausible whenever you need to cover them. So, most start wars with FTL make at least a slight attempt to explain it away via wormholes or hyperspace or whatever. And most people not being physicists, that's good enough to get on with things.

    When you see them air striking Atlanta, you're forced to go "hmm, that's quite practical. It should cut down on the zombies quite a lot." It explicitly points out that the military still is operating with notable power after the cities fell, and makes you wonder why that stopped being a thing.

    L4D did approach this fairly well. If survivors are selected by random immunity to the zombie virus, well...military/ex military people are .8% of the population. Fairly few survivors will be military. Good, solid explanation.

    Walking Dead can't use this one, though. Survivors are apparently survivors due to skill and/or luck and/or available weapons/etc. In such a scenario, the military is composed of people who are very plausible survivors, especially compared to our cast. The question of their absence is one I'd love to see addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    This is not someone who is ready to be carrying a scoped rifle. She might have been trying to prove she was useful, yes -- she failed, because while she's a pretty good shot, she's unreliable and didn't even try to determine whether she should fire or not.
    And honestly, that last one is the single biggest determinant of if she should be holding a gun. It's the biggest single reason why Rick is nervous about giving untrained people weapons(it's a summary of all the subreasons given so far about possible worries they've expressed). Such a dramatic demonstration that she's not ready to have a gun should lead to taking it from her.

    Disobeying orders and endangering others over a need to prove something is a wildly huge warning sign. The ability to hit your target is meaningless if you're engaging the wrong targets.

    I mean, if I were in a bad scenario, and someone is exhibiting this wildly erratic behavior with a weapon, I'd be...concerned. I certainly wouldn't be arming her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    *re-watches scene*

    Ah, he did have his crossbow dragging. Which is a bit tough to make out and could easily be something caught on the walker. Also, Rick didn't even want Shane and T-dog going out with the melee weapons because Herschel wanted to handle the walkers, and only went out himself after they ignored him. So everyone who's name was not Dale wasn't listening to Rick at that moment. At that point, Rick took a pistol and was ready to shoot Daryl himself.
    Yes, as a leader, Rick is not doing great atm.

    Regardless, there's no compelling reason why she needs to fire, and a number of fairly good ones why she shouldn't. Anyone exhibiting that kind of notably poor decision making should not be handed a gun.

    If anything, I would imagine Daryl would be rather unhappy about being shot. I would hope her continuing to carry a firearm becomes an issue in the next episode.

    I also hope they finally wrap up the missing kid thing. Unfortunately, I rather suspect it'll be a lot of arguing over the zombies in the barn, and probably a side order of failing to hide the pregnancy. Probably lots of talking, and very little interaction with actual zombies.

    It's a shame. I love zombie stuff, and I really want this to be good(hence the continuing to watch), but I've only got the three chars I empathize with at all(the same three already listed by another poster, unsurprisingly enough), and it just keeps dragging and being so ridiculously dumb...
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Regardless, there's no compelling reason why she needs to fire, and a number of fairly good ones why she shouldn't. Anyone exhibiting that kind of notably poor decision making should not be handed a gun.
    She had one reason not to fire, and that was because Herschel wanted to handle walkers. Whether or not that's a good reason is debatable.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    She had one reason not to fire, and that was because Herschel wanted to handle walkers. Whether or not that's a good reason is debatable.
    No. Also, she was told not to by multiple people. That's a good reason, if the party is indeed accepting Rick in the leader role. Herschel's opinion is not the only one that matters.

    Also, there's the aforementioned noise issue. The chars themselves have repeatedly remarked that gunshots attract zombies. She HAS to know this.

    Also, we have target identification problems. She didn't know what she was shooting at, exactly. Sun glare, etc. This is an obvious problem. Yeah, he kinda did look like a walker, but when you have people out scouting, you kind of want to make sure before pulling the trigger, if you have the chance.

    Lastly, we have the obvious safety issue of her, a novice shooter, firing directly through her own people.

    She had a serious list of reasons not to shoot, and the only reason to shoot(prove herself/ego) is a notably bad one. It was a terrible call.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    No. Also, she was told not to by multiple people. That's a good reason, if the party is indeed accepting Rick in the leader role. Herschel's opinion is not the only one that matters.
    Rick told her not to only because Herschel wants to handle walkers. With Shane, T-dog, and eventually Rick going out to handle it anyway, either way they're not following Herschel's request.

    Also, there's the aforementioned noise issue. The chars themselves have repeatedly remarked that gunshots attract zombies. She HAS to know this.
    And yet Rick takes out a gun and is about to shoot Daryl. Either they're not concerned about the noise (probably because of the remote area) or everyone forgot about it in the heat of the moment.

    Also, we have target identification problems. She didn't know what she was shooting at, exactly. Sun glare, etc. This is an obvious problem. Yeah, he kinda did look like a walker, but when you have people out scouting, you kind of want to make sure before pulling the trigger, if you have the chance.
    It looked like a walker, walked like a walker, in those cases, it usually is a walker.

    Lastly, we have the obvious safety issue of her, a novice shooter, firing directly through her own people.
    Only an issue if there's a risk of her hitting her own people, she judged that there wasn't, and we have no evidence thus far that she was overconfident about that.

    She had a serious list of reasons not to shoot, and the only reason to shoot(prove herself/ego) is a notably bad one. It was a terrible call.
    A bad call in hindsight, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2011-11-20 at 03:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    It's not a bad call in hindsight, it's a bad call in all sights. All the other characters told her so, even. She didn't need to figure it out for herself.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Rick told her not to only because Herschel wants to handle walkers. With Shane, T-dog, and eventually Rick going out to handle it anyway, either way they're not following Herschel's request.
    They could easily have gone out to herd it towards where Herschel has asked them to, or just away from their camp. The reason behind it is irrelevant, though, to why we fault her for taking the shot: she was TOLD not to shoot, by the group's acknowledged leader. When you are both a beginning shooter and not entirely trusted with weapons by the rest of the group, disobeying a direct order is most definitely grounds for the others to take away her gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    And yet Rick takes out a gun and is about to shoot Daryl. Either they're not concerned about the noise (probably because of the remote area) or everyone forgot about it in the heat of the moment.
    He's prepared to shoot Daryl should it become necessary. However, the people with him are both armed with quieter melee weapons. Rick was most likely just covering them in case of a screwup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    It looked like a walker, walked like a walker, in those cases, it usually is a walker.
    ... really? You're telling me if someone looks like a zombie from 100 yards away but you cannot see their face, you don't think it's necessary to make sure before shooting them in the head? You shouldn't be given a gun either, I see ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Only an issue if there's a risk of her hitting her own people, she judged that there wasn't, and we have no evidence thus far that she was overconfident about that.
    She's a beginning shooter with obvious depressive tendencies who is trying to prove that she should be allowed a gun. Her judgment is suspect at best. And we do have evidence that there is a risk of her hitting her own people. She missed. She could quite easily have missed by more.

    Also, even trained marksmen do not shoot through a group of their allies unless it is an obvious matter of life and death. Because anyone can screw up. Which is why, if she were fit to carry a rifle, she wouldn't have shot in that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    A bad call in hindsight, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20.
    As was said, it's a bad call in any sight.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Andrea is flaky as hell, and everyone knows that... Why they're giving her a gun at all, especially a long range rifle that she barely knows how to shoot, I have no idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    It's not a bad call in hindsight, it's a bad call in all sights. All the other characters told her so, even. She didn't need to figure it out for herself.
    Rick told her not to because of Herschel, which became a pointless reason not to when Shane and t-dog went out anyway, Dale told her not to just because Rick said so, which was equally pointless, and Shane told her not to because he wanted to kill it. None of them had any good reason for her not doing it. You're reading the fact that we knew it was Daryl into their responses, which mistakenly makes them look like they knew what they were doing anymore than she did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Da'Shain View Post
    They could easily have gone out to herd it towards where Herschel has asked them to, or just away from their camp. The reason behind it is irrelevant, though, to why we fault her for taking the shot: she was TOLD not to shoot, by the group's acknowledged leader. When you are both a beginning shooter and not entirely trusted with weapons by the rest of the group, disobeying a direct order is most definitely grounds for the others to take away her gun.
    No, Rick told Shane and T-dog to come back, they ignored him, and then he swore and went to get a gun, they weren't going to herd it back. Shane and T-dog also ignored Rick, and no one's making a big deal out of that.

    He's prepared to shoot Daryl should it become necessary. However, the people with him are both armed with quieter melee weapons. Rick was most likely just covering them in case of a screwup.
    Rick took the lead with the gun. Had Daryl been a walker, Rick would have most likely been the one to kill it.

    ... really? You're telling me if someone looks like a zombie from 100 yards away but you cannot see their face, you don't think it's necessary to make sure before shooting them in the head? You shouldn't be given a gun either, I see ...
    He looked a heck of a lot like a walker up close too, even when you can see his face. Again, it's not just looks either, Daryl's movement was also a dead on impression of a walker.

    She's a beginning shooter with obvious depressive tendencies who is trying to prove that she should be allowed a gun. Her judgment is suspect at best. And we do have evidence that there is a risk of her hitting her own people. She missed. She could quite easily have missed by more.
    She grazed him, it's a leap to assume that missing by inches means she'd hit another person several feet away.

    Also, even trained marksmen do not shoot through a group of their allies unless it is an obvious matter of life and death. Because anyone can screw up. Which is why, if she were fit to carry a rifle, she wouldn't have shot in that situation.
    You're also assuming that she's shooting through them and not over them, which she very well could be given her position.

    As was said, it's a bad call in any sight.
    If that had actually been a walker, no one would have cared and we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact that we knew it was Daryl is the only reason why it is.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    It was a bad judgement call. (Jumping in because I just saw the replay on tv)
    She was told several times not to shoot and she should have noticed something was wrong before she took the shot because Daryl stopped walking when they guys got to him. He was standing there for a good 15 seconds before she took the shot, a walker wouldn't do that.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Bad call, as has been pointed out (...several times). She's irresponsible and reckless, with no skill or experience to justify it. (Rick and Shane are cops, and Dale knows how to handle guns.) The only thing that can be said about her behavior is that at least it's consistent for her character: Self-centered and unbalanced. Her selfish desire to prove herself competent and useful despite everybody else's justified reservations about her ability to handle a weapon ended up nearly killing Daryl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator View Post
    Bad call, as has been pointed out (...several times). She's irresponsible and reckless, with no skill or experience to justify it. (Rick and Shane are cops, and Dale knows how to handle guns.) The only thing that can be said about her behavior is that at least it's consistent for her character: Self-centered and unbalanced. Her selfish desire to prove herself competent and useful despite everybody else's justified reservations about her ability to handle a weapon ended up nearly killing Daryl.

    (Line-by-line refutation in 3...2...1...)
    She obviously knows how to handle guns as well, not as well as Rick and Shane, but as the gun training scene showed, she still has skill of her own.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    And yet Rick takes out a gun and is about to shoot Daryl. Either they're not concerned about the noise (probably because of the remote area) or everyone forgot about it in the heat of the moment.
    Having a gun out is mere prudent caution. I am not criticizing her for having her gun out.

    However, his prudence is pretty clear indication that he CAN take care of the situation himself if need be. It's one dude. Rick is a pretty great shot with that pistol. He's entirely fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    Andrea is flaky as hell, and everyone knows that... Why they're giving her a gun at all, especially a long range rifle that she barely knows how to shoot, I have no idea.
    I might have given her a gun...with training, of course, given the desperation of the situation. However, after such demonstrated inability to use it safely, it would certainly have been taken away again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Rick told her not to because of Herschel, which became a pointless reason not to when Shane and t-dog went out anyway, Dale told her not to just because Rick said so, which was equally pointless, and Shane told her not to because he wanted to kill it. None of them had any good reason for her not doing it. You're reading the fact that we knew it was Daryl into their responses, which mistakenly makes them look like they knew what they were doing anymore than she did.
    Not at all. Nobody's life was in danger. The people out there were armed and prepared, and it was 3 vs 1 walker. They had it pretty solidly under control. There was no indication of attack.

    And that's not even including the fact that he stopped to chat with them. I'll excuse that based on range, but it was still just a terrible call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    You're also assuming that she's shooting through them and not over them, which she very well could be given her position.
    Basic trigonometry indicates that if your range greatly exceeds your height, you are in fact shooting through friendlies. She was what, a whopping ten feet up, shooting from prone? That's firing through.

    Haven't seen yesterdays episode yet(will hit it tonight), but if Daryl doesn't demand she stop having a weapon, I'll be pissed.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    The infection rules seem to be getting pretty lenient.

    1. A lot of people are screaming, while hacking apart a walker with copious blood spray in very close proximity. I suppose it's good luck that none of the drops went into someone's eyes, nose, mouth, etc. There were a lot more precautions ("Guts") in season 1.

    2. We've seen that they're reusing arrows, and are never seen cleaning them, so the tip that has been through several walkers has now been through Daryl. Nobody seems concerned by him essentially sharing dirty needles with the diseased.

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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Basic trigonometry indicates that if your range greatly exceeds your height, you are in fact shooting through friendlies. She was what, a whopping ten feet up, shooting from prone? That's firing through.
    Perhaps, perhaps not.

    Haven't seen yesterdays episode yet(will hit it tonight), but if Daryl doesn't demand she stop having a weapon, I'll be pissed.
    Guess you're going to be pissed then.
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    Default Re: Walking Dead- Season Two (Probably will be spoilers)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Monkey View Post
    The infection rules seem to be getting pretty lenient.

    1. A lot of people are screaming, while hacking apart a walker with copious blood spray in very close proximity. I suppose it's good luck that none of the drops went into someone's eyes, nose, mouth, etc. There were a lot more precautions ("Guts") in season 1.

    2. We've seen that they're reusing arrows, and are never seen cleaning them, so the tip that has been through several walkers has now been through Daryl. Nobody seems concerned by him essentially sharing dirty needles with the diseased.
    He did reuse bolts for a while...then inexplicably stopped doing so(probably because the writers realized that a crossbow that doesn't run out of bolts is an answer to a LOT of problems). He hasn't been reusing them for a couple of episodes, and it's clearly intentional. See his "waste of a bolt" comment for when he shoots the hanging zombie.

    And yes, it definitely was a waste.
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