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    Default [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    AVATAR



    The avatar is a cleric remix intended to offer a simple, direct way to play a primary divine caster in party of T3-T4 characters without overshadowing other PCs. Although it has more class features and more domains, it is less powerful than the cleric described in the Player’s Handbook.

    The avatar was inspired by ideas and suggestions from sonofzeal.

    Change Log:
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    1.0 Original version.
    1.1 Removed spontaneous conversion option. Restricted to casting only one avatar spell per round. Now must prepare spells from a prayerbook. Must acquire most new spells from scrolls. Can't take 10 on Spellcraft checks when learning new spells.
    1.2 Slowed and reduced the progression of extra domains and domain enhancements.
    1.3 Increased base attack from the Poor to the Medium progression.
    1.4 Eliminated the restriction on taking 10 and restored the extra domains and domain enhancement to their original progression. Increased Fort save progression from Poor to Good.
    1.41 Added a lot more text describing when and how to use avatar empowerment.


    Quick Overview:
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    The avatar is basically a cleric with extra domains and a smaller list of spells known. He lacks the ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into cure or inflict spells, but his domain enhancement feature more than makes up for the loss. The balancing feature that makes the avatar much less powerful than a cleric is avatar empowerment. When not empowered, the avatar functions more or less like an adept with a few domain powers. When "powered up", he becomes a badass.

    Fitting an avatar into a party requires more than ordinary skill from the DM. As the DM, you need to ensure that the avatar has the opportunity to use his domain slots and enjoy his moment in the spotlight, but you don't want to give the player carte blanche in every encounter of every day. As a rule of thumb, the avatar should be able to use avatar empowerment about once for every 3-5 encounters. If you are not confident in your mastery of the rules and the avatar's player has strong powergaming tendencies, be wary of attempts to "hustle" you into giving away avatar empowerment too often.


    GAME RULE INFORMATION
    Avatars have the following game statistics.
    Abilities: Charisma determines what spells an avatar can cast, while Wisdom determines the difficulty of resisting his spells. Strength and Constitution are useful for avatars who expect to spend a lot of time in melee combat.

    Alignment: Any. Avatars frequently share the same alignment as the deity they worship.

    HIT DIE: d8

    TABLE: AVATAR
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|-0-|-1-|-2-|-3-|-4-|-5-|-6-|-7-|-8-|-9-
    1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Avatar empowerment, domain, turn or rebuke undead|3|1+1|– |– |– |– |– |– |– |–
    2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Extra domain|4|2+1|– |– |– |– |– |– |– |–
    3rd|+2|+3|+1|+3||4|2+1|0+2|– |– |– |– |– |– |–
    4th|+3|+4|+1|+4|Domain enhancement|5|2+2|1+2|– |– |– |– |– |– |–
    5th|+3|+4|+1|+4||5|2+2|1+2|0+2|– |– |– |– |– |–
    6th|+4|+5|+2|+5|Extra domain|5|2+2|2+2|1+2|– |– |– |– |– |–
    7th|+5|+5|+2|+5||6|3+2|2+2|1+2|0+2|– |– |– |– |–
    8th|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Domain enhancement|6|3+2|2+2|2+2|1+2|– |– |– |– |–
    9th|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6||6|3+2|2+3|2+2|1+2|0+2|– |– |– |–
    10th|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Extra domain|6|3+2|2+3|2+2|2+2|1+2|– |– |– |–
    11th|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7||6|3+3|2+3|2+3|2+2|1+2|0+2|– |– |–
    12th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Domain enhancement|6|3+3|2+3|2+3|2+2|1+3|1+2|– |– |–
    13th|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8||6|3+3|3+3|2+3|2+3|1+3|1+2|0+2|– |–
    14th|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Extra domain|6|3+3|3+3|2+3|2+3|1+3|1+3|0+3|– |–
    15th|+11/+6|+9|+5|+9||6|3+3|3+3|3+3|2+3|2+3|1+3|0+3|0+2|–
    16th|+12/+7|+10|+5|+10|Domain enhancement|6|3+3|3+3|3+3|2+3|2+3|1+3|1+3|0+3|–
    17th|+12/+7|+10|+5|+10||6|3+3|3+3|3+3|3+3|2+3|2+3|1+3|0+3|0 +2
    18th|+13/+8|+11|+6|+11|Extra domain|6|3+3|3+3|3+3|3+3|2+3|2+3|1+3|0+4|0+3
    19th|+14/+9|+11|+6|+11||6|3+3|3+3|3+3|3+3|2+4|2+3|1+4|0+4|0 +3
    20th|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Domain enhancement|6|3+3|3+3|3+3|3+3|2+4|2+3|1+4|0+4|0+4[/table]

    CLASS SKILLS (4 + Int mod per level, x4 at 1st level)
    An avatar's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int).

    CLASS FEATURES
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The avatar gains proficiency with all simple weapons. He gains proficiency with medium and light armor and with shields.

    Spells: An avatar casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells that are opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs. An avatar must choose and prepare his spells in advance.

    To prepare or cast an avatar spell, you must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an avatar's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the avatar's Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, an avatar can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. The base daily spell allotment is given in the table above. For each entry describing your daily spells at a given level, the number on the left is the number of general spell slots available to you, while the number on the right is the number of domain spell slots you possess. Your domain spells can only be cast under certain circumstances (see Avatar Empowerment, below) Unlike some other spellcasters, you receive no bonus spells for a high ability score.

    An avatar prepares spells by studying his prayerbook. An avatar may prepare and cast any spell in his prayerbook, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. An avatar's ability to cast domain spells is limited (see Avatar Empowerment, below). An avatar may not prepare or cast an avatar spell with an alignment descriptor that opposes his own (e.g., a lawful neutral avatar may not cast mantle of chaos).

    An avatar's spellcasting is more limited than that of a cleric. You do not gain bonus spells per day for having a high ability score. You may cast no more than one avatar spell per round, even if you would otherwise have enough actions available to cast more than one. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 immediate action counts as your use of a spell on your next turn. Like an archivist, you can learn additional spells during play, but unlike an archivist, you may only attempt to learn them from scrolls, not from spellbooks.

    Prayerbook: Unlike a cleric, an avatar must seek out and collect new spells much as a wizard does, but from such esoteric sources as holy tablets, ancient steles, or other magical scriptures. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his prayerbook except for read magic, which avatars can prepare from memory.
    An avatar begins play with a prayerbook containing all 0-level cleric spells plus three 1st-level cleric spells of the player’s choice. For each point of Wisdom bonus the avatar has, the prayerbook has an additional 1st-level cleric spell. At each new class level, the avatar gains two new cleric spells for his prayerbook; these can be of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new avatar level). At any time, an avatar can also add spells found on scrolls containing cleric spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required (see Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook on page 178 of the Player’s Handbook).

    Avatar Empowerment:As a priest and holy man, you are an influential and capable person, gifted with the ability to cast divine spells. However, when your actions align with your deity’s direct interests, you can enter an avatar state as a free action (this may be accompanied by an appropriate visual or auditory display, at your discretion, although the display does not have any game effect). In your avatar state, you may cast spells from your domain spell slots. When you are not in your avatar state, you cannot cast the spells in your avatar domain slots. The following situations allow you to access your avatar state:
    • when fighting favored enemies of the church;
    • when fighting heretics or enemy churches;
    • when acting in support of a domain;
    • when acting in support of a church-sanctioned activity;
    • when following the direct instruction of your patron deity.


    In certain situations, especially if you have domains that do not complement one another, you might gain limited empowerment that allows you to use some, but not all of your domains. For example, if you have the Healing and War domains and are asked to aid the faithful who are suffering, you might be empowered to cast spells of the Healing domain but not the War domain. If you have the Good and Law domains and are fighting opponents who worship Hextor (a LE deity of tyranny), you might be empowered to cast spells of the Good domain but not the Law domain.

    Designer's Note:
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    The DM is the arbiter of whether a specific situation does or does not qualify. It is recommended that the player and DM should work together during character creation to establish a common set of expectations about which types of situations would qualify. In general, the DM should create situations where the avatar can enter avatar empowerment about once every 3-5 encounters.

    Avatar empowerment is not available when PCs foolishly or unnecessarily rush into danger, when facing random encounters, or when bringing the fight to passive monsters who are minding their own business within their normal territory. For example, an avatar with the Healing domain doesn't gain avatar empowerment if his friends get hurt in a bar fight that they caused, or if they sustain minor injuries in an encounter that was not otherwise noteworthy. However, if the avatar's friends are gravely wounded and in danger, or if their injuries were sustained while fighting on behalf of his church, empowerment may be appropriate.

    Domain: Choose a deity for your avatar. Sample deities are listed on Table 3—7: Deities in the Player’s Handbook, and described on page 106-108 of that book. The avatar’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him.
    If typical worshipers of a deity include the members of a race, an avatar must be of the indicated race to choose that deity as his own (the god may have occasional worshipers of other races, but not avatars). Some avatars do not receive their spells from a specific deity, but instead worship and gain spells from an entire pantheon, or a universal force or philosophical concept. Work with your DM to select six different domains that are appropriate for the pantheon, force, or concept.

    When you have chosen an alignment and a deity for your avatar, choose one domain granted by your deity. You gain the domain’s granted power, and you may stack your levels in any class that grants a domain when determining the effectiveness of your domain granted powers. At each level of spells you can cast, you have a certain number of domain spell slots. You may only prepare domain spells in these spell slots. You cannot actually cast your domain spells except when in a state of avatar empowerment.

    Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): An avatar can turn or rebuke undead just as a cleric does. A good avatar (or a neutral avatar who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil avatar (or a neutral avatar who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures., forcing them to cower in awe of his power. If your character is a neutral avatar of a neutral deity, you must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good avatar or an evil avatar. Once you make this choice, it cannot be reversed. Exceptions: All lawful neutral avatars of Wee Jas (goddess of death and magic) rebuke or command undead. All avatars of St. Cuthbert (god of retribution) and all nonevil avatars of Obad-Hai (god of nature) turn of destroy undead.
    An avatar may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. An avatar with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

    Extra Domain: At 2nd level, and again every four levels thereafter, an avatar gains access to an additional domain within his deity’s portfolio, gaining its granted power and domain spells. If your deity has fewer than six domains, work with your DM to select additional thematically appropriate domains to add to your available domain list. Alternately, your character might expand his worship to include the pantheon to which the primary deity belongs, or two deities who are closely linked (depending on the campaign, you might choose two deities who are close siblings, who have complementary or contrasting portfolios, or two deities who work together as a team). Your DM has final authority over which domains can be added or which deities can be worshipped in tandem.

    Domain Enhancement: At 4th level, and again every four levels thereafter, you may make one change to one of your domains, selected from the list below.
    • Replace one spell on one of your domain spell lists with a different, thematically appropriate spell of the same or lower level. For example, if you have the Darkness domain, you might replace blindness/deafness (a 2nd-level spell) with darkvision (also a 2nd-level spell) or ebon eyes (a 1st-level spell). Your DM must approve the new spell. If the spell you choose is available at different levels to members of different classes, consult with your DM to determine what level it should be for you.
    • Select a domain power that is usable a limited number of times per day. You gain one additional daily use of that power. You can select this option multiple times. Its effects stack.
    • Select a domain power that improves your caster level when casting a particular type of spell. The caster level bonus increases by +1. You can select this option multiple times. Its effects stack.
    • Select a one of your domains and one metamagic feat that you know. You can reduce the spell slot adjustment of that metamagic feat by 1 (minimum +0) when you prepare spells from that domain’s spell list in your domain spell slots. For example, if you select the Healing domain and the Empower feat, you can prepare empowered cure light wounds in a 2nd-level domain slot instead of a 3rd-level domain slot. You can select this option multiple times. Its effects stack.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-11-02 at 05:48 PM.
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    Default Avatar ACFs and Options

    Alternate Class Features

    Generally speaking, the avatar should qualify for any alternate class feature available to clerics. Additional ACFs are listed below.

    Variant Turning or Rebuking
    Some deities have little interest in undead, or no strong feelings for or against them. For avatars of these deities, it may be more appropriate to turn or rebuke a different type of creature. If you select this alternate class feature, you do not turn or rebuke undead. Instead, select one sort of creature from the ranger's favored enemy list that is strongly associated with your deity, such as fey, giants, or evil outsiders. If followers of your deity hate this type of creature, you can turn it, just as a good cleric turns undead. If followers of your deity have power over this type of creature, you can rebuke it, just as an evil cleric rebukes undead. For example, an avatar of Moradin might turn giants, while an avatar of Juiblex might rebuke oozes. Your DM must approve of the type of creature and the decision of whether the avatar turns or rebukes it.

    You can still use your turn or rebuke feat to qualify for feats, prestige classes, and other abilities that require turn or rebuke undead, but certain choices might not make sense for you since you do not actually turn or rebuke undead. Good judgment should be used to determine which choices are appropriate.


    FEATS

    EXTRA DOMAIN ENHANCEMENT [General]
    You are especially capable at enhancing your domains.
    Prerequisites: Domain Enhancement class feature, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks
    Benefit: You gain an additional domain enhancement.
    Special: You can take this feat more than once. Its effects stack.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-10-18 at 02:39 AM.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Does it cast from the Cleric spell list or the Avatar spell list? It references both. If it casts from the Avatar spell list, what spells are in it?

    It also mentions being unable to prepare or cast "faith" spells and says (see below), but I find no other mention of faith spells anywhere in the text.

    Overall it looks like you took the standard Cleric, gave it two-stat casting, but then added lots of extra power and versatility. On the whole I'd call this much more powerful than the normal Cleric. What about it makes you think it's any less powerful or any more balanced for Tier 3 play?
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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Darn copy/paste errors. Removed all references to an avatar spell list or faith spells.

    There are two chief nerfs: no bonus spells and one less total 8th and 9th level spell per day, and an avatar cannot cast from his domain spell slots at all except in a limited set of circumstances (and you'll notice that most of his higher-level slots are domain slots.

    Still too much?
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-10-17 at 01:21 AM.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    There are two chief nerfs: no bonus spells and one less total 8th and 9th level spell per day, and an avatar cannot cast from his domain spell slots at all except in a limited set of circumstances (and you'll notice that most of his higher-level slots are domain slots.
    Well, the one less 8th and 9th level spell slot really does next to nothing power-wise, and the inability to cast domain spells except in Avatar state is completely unclear to me. I think it's the domain spell slots that are throwing me off. If it can spontaneously convert prepared spells into domain spells while in Avatar state it doesn't need domain slots. Conversely, if it has domain slots I'm inclined to think that it can cast domain spells while not in Avatar state without spontaneously converting his prepared spells simply by expending the appropriate domain spell slot. Phew!

    Still too much?
    Anyway, yes, it's definitely still too much. The bulk of the Cleric's power simply comes from having access to the Cleric spell list. Don't let anyone tell you different. Even without domains or DMM a Cleric would still be Tier 2 at the very least, likely still Tier 1. Your remix preserves both the full Cleric spell list and Turn Undead all while adding lots more things to the Cleric without appreciable drawbacks.

    If you want to tone the Cleric down to Tier 3 or 4 level it's going to take drastic steps like writing a severely limited spell list of your own or taking away entire spell levels. Or both, actually.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2011-10-17 at 01:49 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Removed spontaneous conversion option. Restricted to casting only one avatar spell per round. Now must prepare spells from a prayerbook. Must acquire most new spells from scrolls. Can't take 10 on Spellcraft checks when learning new spells. Better?
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-10-17 at 02:31 AM.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    I am slightly confused by the +X number in spells per day. Not in what the represnt ( i am guessing domains) byt why does for example a 3rd level Avaater onyl get 1 bonus 1st level domain but 2 bonus 2nd level domains?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Removed spontaneous conversion option. Restricted to casting only one avatar spell per round. Now must prepare spells from a prayerbook. Must acquire most new spells from scrolls. Can't take 10 on Spellcraft checks when learning new spells. Better?
    Better, but I'd still call it Tier 2 for sure. In your average D&D game the Avatar will play well with others, but in games where some optimization is encouraged it will be noticeably stronger than Tier 3s and 4s.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
    I am slightly confused by the +X number in spells per day. Not in what the represnt ( i am guessing domains) byt why does for example a 3rd level Avaater onyl get 1 bonus 1st level domain but 2 bonus 2nd level domains?
    The "tilt" of general vs. domain slots shifts more and more towards domain slots as the avatar advances in level, meaning that more and more of the avatar's power is available only when receiving deific sanction. Since spells grow more powerful at an increasing rate when you level up, becoming increasingly stingy about doling out general spell slots keeps the avatar's power growth more linear.

    An avatar without domain access is pretty much a Tier 4 character, while one with full sanction is definitely Tier 1. In a party of Tier 3 characters, this means that the avatar should serve a fairly narrow support role most of the time, but in critical moments he can temporarily become a righteous badass. Because the DM can exert a lot of control over when and how often those moments occur, it should be fairly easy to keep an avatar character from breaking a campaign.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-10-17 at 07:52 AM.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    An avatar without domain access is pretty much a Tier 4 character, while one with full sanction is definitely Tier 1. In a party of Tier 3 characters, this means that the avatar should serve a fairly narrow support role most of the time, but in critical moments he can temporarily become a righteous badass. Because the DM can exert a lot of control over when and how often those moments occur, it should be fairly easy to keep an avatar character from breaking a campaign.
    I hadn't noticed that you did this before. I very much like this design. Very well thought out, should be fun in actual play, and elegant in design. Kudos!
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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I hadn't noticed that you did this before. I very much like this design. Very well thought out, should be fun in actual play, and elegant in design. Kudos!
    Thanks! Although sonofzeal deserves most of the credit, as the core idea is originally his. I've added references to the domain restriction in several places, to make it easier to catch on a first read-through.


    Slowed the progression of new domains and domain enhancements, reducing total domains from 6 to 5 and total domain enhancements from 5 to 3. I feel better about the balance at this point, but I'm wondering if I haven't tipped it too far in the other direction, and if there aren't insufficient class features to compete with available prestige classes now.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-10-17 at 03:07 PM.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    I feel better about the balance at this point, but I'm wondering if I haven't tipped it too far in the other direction, and if there aren't insufficient class features to compete with available prestige classes now.
    I wouldn't worry about that much. PrC design, especially for full casters, is a real mess and it's not your responsibility to address the dozens or so Cleric PrCs that are too powerful with a fixed base class.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Improved base attack to the medium progression, which is something I'd intended from the start but forgotten.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Looks good Scott hopefully Mery will have less to worry about and be able to find that focus he wanted in the class ^.^ lol cant wait to see it run in the campaign.
    Last edited by chrono10487; 2011-10-17 at 05:48 PM.

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by chrono10487 View Post
    Looks good Scott hopefully Mery will have less to worry about and be able to find that focus he wanted in the class ^.^ lol cant wait to see it run in the campaign.
    Lol. Gee, thanks, buddy. I appreciate the vote of confidence. I like the idea behind the way this class works thus far. Specifically, I like the fact that you get to determine the overall path of your spells through the prayer book and domain selection processes, although picking a path will be interesting when trying to make sure you don't limit yourself too much. I also like the domain enhancement option because of the versatility it gives. However, cutting it down to just three times in the total progression may be a bit much on the nerf side, and the ability to take it as extra feats doesn't quite feel like it makes up for it because feat slots are really valuable to somebody who wants to go more casty than smacky.

    Also, I don't know if cutting out the ability to take a 10 on the Spellcraft to copy spells is really necessary considering that Int is a dump state AND it only gets 4 points per level. But maybe that's my non-cleric caster inexperience talking. To me, though, those points are going to be rather precious in qualifying for some of the spell feats, and so spellcraft may be underpowered all things considered. Again, I could very well be wrong on this, so take it or leave it. Lack of bonus spells I'm also on the fence about because I can't think of another caster without that, but play testing will tell us for certain.

    The last thing is that since Dex is a dump state my concern is the lack of the ability to wield heavy armor. This may not seem like so much of a concern, but if somebody wants to go the cleric-tank style of avatar play they are going to have some issues getting AC to a reasonable point without being forced to limit the already lightened spellcasting to multiple instances of Shield of Fatih and Cat's Grace per day, and thus limiting usefulness somewhat in combat. So, like standard Clerics, I could see having heavy armor as an option because of the reduced defensive abilities spell-wise and lack of Dex. Again, just my opinion, but having played divine casters and fighter-types as much as I have, I'm always a little wary about AC on an d8 HD or less character.

    Looking forward to play-testing this instead of the Prophet because there is definitely a greater ability to find focus with the Avatar. Plus, working out the thematic pieces of the Avatar Empowerment aspect is going to be entertaining to no end.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Hehehe. I think chrono's referring to the (very valid) complaint you had that the prophet was too unfocused. I'm likewise hoping that that the avatar will let you define your own focus, especially since the ability to follow a pantheon or philosophy basically lets you cherry-pick five domains of your choice.

    I think you make a good point about how the avatar is going to be at the mercy of the die roll if he can't take 20 on Spellcraft DCs. I wish there was some sort of Wisdom-based skill we could use instead. Oh well. I'll strip out that restriction.

    I'm also on the fence about the reduced progression of domain enhancement. Since you're the one playtesting, let's try it according to your suggestion and see what we get.

    And, oops. Should be a Good Fort save progression.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Hehehe. I think chrono's referring to the (very valid) complaint you had that the prophet was too unfocused. I'm likewise hoping that that the avatar will let you define your own focus, especially since the ability to follow a pantheon or philosophy basically lets you cherry-pick five domains of your choice.
    Yes, this is definitely one of my favorite things about the class. Domains are so useful in augmenting skills and we've definitely needed a domain caster. I'm going to do my best to go the caster route with the play-test because that's the part that needs the biggest perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    I'm also on the fence about the reduced progression of domain enhancement. Since you're the one playtesting, let's try it according to your suggestion and see what we get.
    I'm glad we're going to try it this way. I remember when we were thorwing around ideas for improving the prophet you had mentioned the increased power state, and on my original read I had almost missed that you had placed the power booster options into the domain enhancement list. Those are one of the coolest and most important aspects of this class and it felt wrong to cut them down so much. Also, the increased customization for either smacky or casty with the extra domain enhancements is always a plus. I think you may be on to something here.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Damnit, Jiriku! I knew I should've posted my Cleric!

    I had wrote one a few months back focusing around only 1 domain at 1st level, more domains as you level up, and more of your spell slots dedicated to domain spells. Leave it to you to think along the same lines, dude.

    Mine didn't actually have interesting class abilities though.


    ...Onto the class itself. What am I missing that truly makes this better for tier 3-4 parties? A wizard who can only cast one spell/round is still tier 1, and while I really like the state of Avatar empowerment, it's a great tool for emphasizing roleplay -- it doesn't really affect the usability of domain spells. It's pretty easy for a player to write in edicts of their god which require free use of all spells from the Play Dough domain if need be.

    EDIT: I see discussion is underway on this very topic. I want to point out that being higher tier isn't the end of the world if it's not replacing everyone else. I'll (hopefully remember to) come back to this topic with a little more in hand about this.
    Last edited by Pechvarry; 2011-10-18 at 11:15 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Cleric remix: the avatar [PEACH away!]

    Well, the principle of the class (which I suppose I really ought to write into the OP), is that Avatar Empowerment is primarily under the DM's control, not the player's. Thus, if the player says "I'm an elf, and my ally is an elf, and I have the Elf domain, so this owlbear attacking us justifies avatar empowerment", the DM responds with "Your elflord warned you the forest was dangerous, and you invaded the owlbear's den even after seeing its tracks outside. It's defending itself from you. Now go get me another soda."

    Edit: Added a lot more text describing when and how to use Avatar Empowerment, and introduced the concept of partial empowerment.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-10-18 at 02:26 PM.
    3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
    Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


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