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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Disclaimer: I suck at playing all carries except gunblade-stacking Ezreal (Requiescat In Pace) so what the <bleep> do I know anyway? But I'll say parrot away some things I heard once from someone who may have known what they were talking about.

    For most carries there's only a handful of offensive items worth the money.

    -Infinity Edge
    -Bloodthirster
    -Last Whisper
    -Phantom Dancer

    The first three you build pretty much always. Dancers you build if you're doing fairly well and don't need some sort of defensive item to not get exploded by an assassin.

    Other items to consider:

    Black Cleaver: for when the enemy team is stupid isn't bothering to build armour
    Wriggles: for when you need lane sustain and better farming. Most carries farm real well so don't need this in the slightest. Just mentioning on account of some very good Vaynes I've seen rocking this item.
    Last edited by SlyGuyMcFly; 2011-10-20 at 10:11 AM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by tribble View Post
    So, I've been playing more and more carries, because I started to get bored with not being able to do significant damage, and I realised I have no idea how to build a carry. I don't really understand when to build damage versus building attack speed, I don't really know how to properly utilize crit, there are tons of fancy offensive items for my carrying pleasure but I don't know which ones are actually good, I'm kind of lost. Does anyone want to help me out and give me, like, a "general" item list that should allow me to deal good damage with most carries?
    Start Dorans Blade. Build Doran's Blade. If necessary, build another Doran's Blade.

    Build Boots 1. Build BF Sword. Build Infinity Edge OR Bloodthirster (depends on your farm, your champion, your enemies, and how the game is going). Finish Zerkers at some point. Build Zeal. Eventually pick up Phantom Dancer, another BF sword item, and Last Whisper.

    Kog'maw might want a Bloodrazor. Ezreal wants CDR boots. Ezreal and Corki might want a Triforce. Corki and Vayne might want a Black Cleaver.

    Building damage, and then building more damage increases your total DPS additively. Building damage, and then building crit/attack speed/armor pen increases your damage multiplicatively. Generally, your core damage is Infinity Edge + Phantom dancer + Zerkers for attack speed, crit damage, and crit chance. After that, your Bloodthirster provides a large chunk of additional AD along with excellent sustain, which should allow you to sustain through most teamfights assuming that your team is well coordinated.

    Champions have base armor per level, and a great deal of them buy additional sources of armor. Generally, that means that most non-squishy champions will end the game at over 100 armor, and even some of the squishier mages/carries still have about 80. That sort of armor value roughly halves your damage output, and so Last Whisper is almost always an excellent fifth or sixth item.

    @Even Human: Regarding Wriggles, it gives a lot of dragon control while making you much tankier versus other AD champions. If you're against a bad range matchup, say Vayne/Graves vs Caitlyn/Kog'Maw/Ezreal, Wriggles can give you the sustain and eHP that you need to survive the lane.
    Last edited by ex cathedra; 2011-10-20 at 10:24 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    Kog'maw might want a Bloodrazor. Ezreal and Corki might want a Triforce.
    Don't forget Black Cleaver as the first item. It's a viable opening item on many; most common users probably being Vayne & Corki tho.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Don't forget Black Cleaver as the first item. It's a viable opening item on many; most common users probably being Vayne & Corki tho.
    Yeah, it's actually quite good on both of them. Considering her steroids, Vayne actually gets quite a lot of out it compared to other BF sword items for BC's price.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I have sort of a basic balance question to those infinitely smarter than me.

    Armor and Magic Resistance both use the same mathematical equation to determine their usefulness. Also, we know how 100 in either means essentially double the effective hp in either.

    So why are their two armor items that double effective health (essentially, Frozen Heart is only 99) but no magic resit items that offer the same benefit. Force of Nature is the highest, but after that nothing is above the 50s?
    I'd assume it's because while most spells don't scale with a 1.0 ratio with AP, every champion has at least one thing that scales with a 1.0 AD ratio, namely their auto-attack. Which also happens to be on a much shorter cooldown than all spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by tribble View Post
    So, I've been playing more and more carries, because I started to get bored with not being able to do significant damage, and I realised I have no idea how to build a carry. I don't really understand when to build damage versus building attack speed, I don't really know how to properly utilize crit, there are tons of fancy offensive items for my carrying pleasure but I don't know which ones are actually good, I'm kind of lost. Does anyone want to help me out and give me, like, a "general" item list that should allow me to deal good damage with most carries?
    Essentially, you have to remember that attack damage, attack speed and crits all scale multiplicatively with each other - when you have a lot of attack damage, increasing attack damage by a bit will net you less of a damage-per-second increase than increasing attack speed by a bit would; if you have a lot of attack speed, you prefer to increase your attack damage, and so on.

    I'm not sure I should be talking - I mean, I only have about 600 games played total so far, none of them ranked - but I'd say Infinity Edge->Phantom Dancer->Bloodthirster->Black Cleaver is just about optimal on most regular AD carries (with defensive items as needed in between, which means it's quite possible you can't get all four), as far as the progression of damage items goes. Or at least, it's not completely off on pretty much all of them.

    I usually go Doran's Blade -> Boots (Berserker's or Mercury's, depending on the enemy team) -> Infinity Edge, with a Vampiric Sceptre somewhere in between while building it, for lane sustain -> Phantom Dancer -> Banshee's Veil -> Bloodthirster -> Black Cleaver or another defensive item, on more classic AD carries like Ashe or Caitlyn (with increasingly different builds the more atypical a carry it is).

    EDIT: Ooof, Kinkou'd so hard.



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    Last edited by Winterwind; 2011-10-20 at 10:19 AM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Really? Just to be sure, you did not accept Arcalius? If so, I'll throw you another one. And start hopping on from time to time, I still have no idea when you guys would play, my time.
    Last edited by Daverin; 2011-10-20 at 10:26 AM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Essentially, you have to remember that attack damage, attack speed and crits all scale multiplicatively with each other - when you have a lot of attack damage, increasing attack damage by a bit will net you less of a damage-per-second increase than increasing attack speed by a bit would; if you have a lot of attack speed, you prefer to increase your attack damage, and so on.
    Yes, exactly this. Also, you should keep the following in mind: this means, for champions with strong steroids, building a stat that you already possess is suboptimal. Thus, Graves (80% steroid), Tristana (90% steroid), and Ezreal (50% steroid, reliance on CDR) benefit less from attack speed than Vayne (Silver bolts scales only with attack speed, 55 AD steroid).

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Ok, fine, since everyone is posting guides let's make a simple one:
    - Get the Brutalizer if you're based on abilities (Urgot & Ezreal)
    - Get Big Item™
    - Get ASpd and Crit Chance (PD, Trinity, Black Cleaver)
    - Get defense as necessary (Banshee's, GA, QSS)
    - Get Greaves or whichever boots make sense against enemy team (Mercs vs. magical assassins, perhaps Tabi against physicals, some Urgot might want CDR Boots instead if not needing tanky boots)
    - Get second or third big item or Last Whisper or some such as the game demands. I often have both BT & IE on champs like Cait or Ashe 'cause lifesteal & 1k crits are both good.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2011-10-20 at 10:26 AM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Trinity Force on Graves? Thoughts? I know Djinn likes it, I've seen a couple of others do and, and arguments can be made in favor of E's effective CD for it. It would give a little over 100 AD at 18 with sheen proc, and of course Trinity is nice in other ways.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    It's okay. It contributes well to his burst, which is alright, but my only issue with it is that you're paying a lot of gold for a phantom dancer replacement that doesn't give you a lot of crit.

    Though, I don't recall Djinn's full build off hand so it's hard for me to make a fair assessment. Triforce Graves is probably fine, but in all likelihood Djinn succeeded with it because he's Djinn.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    It's okay. It contributes well to his burst, which is alright, but my only issue with it is that you're paying a lot of gold for a phantom dancer replacement that doesn't give you a lot of crit.

    Though, I don't recall Djinn's full build off hand so it's hard for me to make a fair assessment. Triforce Graves is probably fine, but in all likelihood Djinn succeeded with it because he's Djinn.
    Yeah, I am always aware of that. Djinn builds as he pleases.

    And you are right about the crit, which is my biggest trepidation. Honestly, it feels like crit needs another package sometimes (which probably isn't really the case, but the fact that you basically buy one item for both of the AD multipliers seems... convenient yet odd.) That said, although I find zeal at minimum to be what ties together his E buff in terms of attacks needed to keep it up, I do wonder if PD is overkill on that end.

    I probably will just give it a spin sometime. And after that I'll troll with tanky ad build.
    Last edited by Daverin; 2011-10-20 at 10:40 AM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by aethernox View Post
    Though, I don't recall Djinn's full build off hand so it's hard for me to make a fair assessment.
    It involves selling my boots, but I farm like a boss with Graves...

    Bloodthirster + Zerker's, Phantom Dancer, Infinity Edge, Trinity Force, Madred's Bloodrazor, sell boots for Phantom Dancer

    With the attack speed that grants, you can have E basically up forever...and with your E and your Q's max cooldown (and the occasional Ult or Smokescreen), you can get a Tri-Force proc every 2 seconds.

    Triforce Graves is probably fine, but in all likelihood Djinn succeeded with it because he's Djinn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daverin View Post
    Yeah, I am always aware of that. Djinn builds as he pleases.
    Heh. I actually tried to write up a build guide for a bunch of carries to answer the question on the last page, but halfway through I realized that most of my carry builds are actually really dumb on some level (usually just having no defenses at all).
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2011-10-20 at 11:06 AM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Sometimes I wonder about just skipping the boots and going straight into a PD after Trinity Force >.> (Yes I know it is a bad idea, please make no comment on it.)

    At any rate, I really need to get matched up against a Cait in lane as Graves, so I can become disillusioned about him and stop playing AD carries again. As it stands, Graves feels like a pretty good laner, at least against the people I have fought.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    So... just looking at Graves' abilities. An 80% attack steroid that can stay active 100% of the time, a slow, a passive that gives up to 40 additional armour and magic resistance, an ability that punished people from going into close combat with him, with a range that is fully normal for any AD carry and better base stats than most of them.

    What am I missing? How is he not strictly better than every other AD carry that is currently in the game by a wide margin? I assume I am missing something, as Riot's been pretty good about nor releasing overpowered champions lately and there isn't nearly as much whining on the official forums as I would expect if he truly was OP... but what is it?
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I have sort of a basic balance question to those infinitely smarter than me.

    Armor and Magic Resistance both use the same mathematical equation to determine their usefulness. Also, we know how 100 in either means essentially double the effective hp in either.

    So why are their two armor items that double effective health (essentially, Frozen Heart is only 99) but no magic resit items that offer the same benefit. Force of Nature is the highest, but after that nothing is above the 50s?
    It's been touched on, but this is also to do with burst vs sustain. Physical damage has less burst but much much more sustain than magic damage. After most* mages have blown their load as it were, they can't do anything, whereas AD carries and tanky DPS can keep autoattacking 'til the cows come home and not drop off in damage output. Because of the reliance on cooldowns, MR costs more because shutting down a mage's burst makes them never kill you whereas shutting down a physcarry's damage makes them just take longer to kill you. Also, ways of bypassing armour are much more readily available than the other way around. Armour pen runes give a bigger benefit, Brutaliser actually builds into something with late game relevance and there's a whole host of ways to add magic damage which scales with carry stats (i.e. Bloodrazor, Wit's End, SotD, Malady) but only one way to add physical damage which scales with mage stats (Lich Bane, which doesn't even add sustained damage).

    *interestingly, this is partly why Rumble, Vlad, Karthus, Morde and other more sustained damage mages have had their heyday as being way OP because sustained magic damage is harder to itemise against, and it's quite a bit what makes Pantheon so hard to balance, since he's pretty much the only physical burst caster, it's hard to balance his numbers so he still deals mage level burst against targets with similar costing armour, but doesn't deal too much damage against targets without. It's why I suggested a %armour shred on Heartseeker as part of a rework.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    What am I missing? How is he not strictly better than every other AD carry that is currently in the game by a wide margin? I assume I am missing something, as Riot's been pretty good about nor releasing overpowered champions lately and there isn't nearly as much whining on the official forums as I would expect if he truly was OP... but what is it?
    Pretty short range, an underwhelming ultimate and he has to use his escape aggressively leaving him vulnerable if he wants to do his maximum damage output. He's solid and his Smoke Bomb can be devastating, but he's not OP at all.
    Last edited by Dogmantra; 2011-10-20 at 12:10 PM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    So I should build damage first, then attackspeed and crit?
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    Most of it is a matter of not being as powerful as it sounds. The passive is bad against burst assassins (surprise), since it takes a whole 10 seconds to wind up, before which they should be leaping. He has only 1 cc through his smokescreen, both the slow and the vision reduction. He has only 1 steroid, which actually sometimes can't be relied on for that because you may want to calculate the need to keep it up; at lower levels, it is not as guaranteed to be up 100% of the time. Now, compare that to, say, Vayne. Look at her Q, her W, and her E. ALL of them will ultimately boost her autoattacks, although primarily through burst. She also has burst through her E as well as potential hard cc. Her escape is actually up more often if she is fighting (you would need to stack more AS than necessary to get Grave's up as fast as hers, it is just the steroid portion can be up100% of the time,) and she has better chasing mobility, which I have found to be a problem for Graves sometimes.

    Right now, Graves is awesome because he brings good marks in multiple fields, but he is not the end-all-be-all of carries by any means, and certainly is not the best pick in all situations. Vayne ultimately hurts much more, Cait will still lane better, and Ashe still has far more utility. What Graves does is kind of the same thing as MF, which is bring good AoE burst, but in a less high-risk package, thanks to his passive, E and escape, and the fact his burst is fire and forget. He also is an excellent farmer, so there is that. I say Graves is best described as a burst/carry hybrid with some secondary survivability that the other carries lack.

    At least, initial impressions. But I am highly suspicious of him being called OP at this point.
    Last edited by Daverin; 2011-10-20 at 12:17 PM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    I have sort of a basic balance question to those infinitely smarter than me.

    Armor and Magic Resistance both use the same mathematical equation to determine their usefulness. Also, we know how 100 in either means essentially double the effective hp in either.

    So why are their two armor items that double effective health (essentially, Frozen Heart is only 99) but no magic resit items that offer the same benefit. Force of Nature is the highest, but after that nothing is above the 50s?
    Because most things are physical damage in general. Everyone has an autoattack, everything on the map deals physical damage, and nowadays there are AD-scaling abilities all over the place too.

    Quote Originally Posted by tribble View Post
    So, I've been playing more and more carries, because I started to get bored with not being able to do significant damage, and I realised I have no idea how to build a carry. I don't really understand when to build damage versus building attack speed, I don't really know how to properly utilize crit, there are tons of fancy offensive items for my carrying pleasure but I don't know which ones are actually good, I'm kind of lost. Does anyone want to help me out and give me, like, a "general" item list that should allow me to deal good damage with most carries?
    IE+PD+red/green pots always a good recipe for success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    So... just looking at Graves' abilities. An 80% attack steroid that can stay active 100% of the time, a slow, a passive that gives up to 40 additional armour and magic resistance, an ability that punished people from going into close combat with him, with a range that is fully normal for any AD carry and better base stats than most of them.

    What am I missing? How is he not strictly better than every other AD carry that is currently in the game by a wide margin? I assume I am missing something, as Riot's been pretty good about nor releasing overpowered champions lately and there isn't nearly as much whining on the official forums as I would expect if he truly was OP... but what is it?
    Graves pretty much outclasses MF. He has her laning with better scaling. But his short range means trouble against Trist, Kog, and Cait; and Vayne outfights him most ways.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Oh, to expand on Graves's passive, it's actually pretty awful compared to many others.

    Using Chain Vest and Negatron Cloak as my examples, armour costs about 15.55 gold per point, with Magic resist at around 15.42 gold per point (Negatron Cloak's actually the most cost efficient way of getting flat MR, interestingly, though FoN and BVeil give better defense against magic damage)

    Using these numbers, at level 18 with full stacks, Graves's passive is worth a pitiful 1238 gold.

    Looking at other similar passives which take a while to going, Karma's passive gives her 140 AP when she's at extremely low health. Using Needlessly Large Rod for price, that's giving her 2800 gold's worth of AP though admittedly, she won't often be using the AP at that sort of level, so say she gets low enough to be getting 100 AP, that's still 2000 gold. And Karma's considered bad.

    What about other characters with passives that give them a quantifiable amount of gold, like people with X to Ys or Olaf, or probably a bunch of other people I'm forgetting? Most of them have passives that are worth more gold.

    Also don't forget that he has to stack it up. Oftentimes he'll be getting maybe six, seven hundred gold from it.
    Last edited by Dogmantra; 2011-10-20 at 12:45 PM.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogmantra View Post
    Using these numbers, at level 18 with full stacks, Graves's passive is worth a pitiful 1238 gold.
    The thing about Graves is that it's a "seventh item" - a token amount of defense you don't have to pay for, when you REALLY want to be focusing damage.

    It is noticeable - you are tankier than say Caitlyn or Vayne. You can not instantly die in the AoE initiation, and then lifesteal back up with your Bloodthirster for the next skirmish instead of having to wait to respawn. Or maybe take a couple extra seconds of damage from a tanky-dps jumping on you after the teamfight hits. But you'll still die like a ranged carry in the end.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by balistafreak View Post
    The thing about Graves is that it's a "seventh item" - a token amount of defense you don't have to pay for, when you REALLY want to be focusing damage.

    It is noticeable - you are tankier than say Caitlyn or Vayne. You can not instantly die in the AoE initiation, and then lifesteal back up with your Bloodthirster for the next skirmish instead of having to wait to respawn. Or maybe take a couple extra seconds of damage from a tanky-dps jumping on you after the teamfight hits. But you'll still die like a ranged carry in the end.
    Actually, it is the tanky-dps on your face Graves can handle better. The initiation is full blast, because it is all at once at, by definition, the start. Again, the full passive takes 10 seconds to ramp up. Depending on what level teamfights start, the intermittent levels aren't too potent either, and no level does any good at just 2 stacks, which is probably the most that you can get after all the aoe initiation is done (unless they botch, but then they have more problems to worry about then you having the passive bonus needed to tough it out.)

    Also, I just tried something funny in practice, and admittedly have no clue how it would work in a real game, but... Lucidity boots on Graves. Makes his Q up that much quicker, his R that much more available, and it does a decent change on his E, making it that much quicker to pump it back up, both by leaving less to shoot back to up, or giving a bit less time in the chance of you being interrupted in trying to get it back up (which also is mildly useful as far as its role as his escape goes.) This means that you have less aspd when it is active, though, and admittedly when you are in the groove there is no real need for lower CD on it... but, I feel that they are some nice "safety net" benefits that also benefit your other abilities. I also think he'd like it if/when they come out with the heavier AD item off of brutalizer.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogmantra View Post
    It's been touched on, but this is also to do with burst vs sustain. Physical damage has less burst but much much more sustain than magic damage. After most* mages have blown their load as it were, they can't do anything, whereas AD carries and tanky DPS can keep autoattacking 'til the cows come home and not drop off in damage output. Because of the reliance on cooldowns, MR costs more because shutting down a mage's burst makes them never kill you whereas shutting down a physcarry's damage makes them just take longer to kill you. Also, ways of bypassing armour are much more readily available than the other way around. Armour pen runes give a bigger benefit, Brutaliser actually builds into something with late game relevance and there's a whole host of ways to add magic damage which scales with carry stats (i.e. Bloodrazor, Wit's End, SotD, Malady) but only one way to add physical damage which scales with mage stats (Lich Bane, which doesn't even add sustained damage).

    *interestingly, this is partly why Rumble, Vlad, Karthus, Morde and other more sustained damage mages have had their heyday as being way OP because sustained magic damage is harder to itemise against, and it's quite a bit what makes Pantheon so hard to balance, since he's pretty much the only physical burst caster, it's hard to balance his numbers so he still deals mage level burst against targets with similar costing armour, but doesn't deal too much damage against targets without. It's why I suggested a %armour shred on Heartseeker as part of a rework.
    Last I checked, Talon and Garen also scale very well with AD. Garen more so because he scales with Crits. Though his Judgements is more sustained damage than, say, Annie Burst combo, its certaintly not as sustained as Ashe or Vayne auto-attacks.

    Talon might have the same problem as old-pantheon. he has incredible burst, its hard to itemize against (Sunfire+GA? Maybe Aegis? Thornmail, Randouins all are better to use against Auto-Attackers. Atmogs is good, but that's ALWAYS good on Tankydps).

    Also: Last time I checked, Rumble is still amazing. Karthus is incredibly strong right now, go ask PhantomLord, Alathor, xPeke, Misaya, and a host of other AP players. I'm really at a lose as to why TSM, CLG, and Epik haven't picked up Karthus the way their European and Chinese counterparts have. Karthus is a beast in any lineup. Especially because Talon and Vayne are very bursty and you can get initation through heroes like Warwick, Chogath, Alistair, Sona. Amumu, Singed are also great, though they have problems. Nocturne can kinda work, but you'd probably need an Ashe or strong Solo lane tank to also initiate.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    AD carry builds are a little more complex than just a single build order. Basically there are several items and paths you want to consider:

    You start cloth 5 pot, boots 3 pot, or doran's blade. I start doran's blade almost every game, but I can see an argument for cloth if you're worried and boots are generally good.

    The first decision you make is after your first B. If you have enough gold for a BF sword, generally you should just buy one. If not, then if you are very confident in lane buy another doran's blade. If you think you have any chance of losing lane, though, buy a wriggle's lantern - it is a ridiculously overpowered laning item. The pieces of it are all incredibly good vs another AD carry. However, if either tower has died, don't buy wriggle's. At that point you usually don't have to worry about your opponent as a farm obstacle.

    If you got wriggle's, you are now building infinity edge. The two exceptions are vayne and kog, vayne usually wants black cleaver for attack speed with W and kog sometimes wants wit's end or madred's. If you didn't get infinity edge, bloodthirster is a laning snowball item. If you are losing do not get bloodthirster, get IE. Infinity edge adds more damage than bloodthirster, bloodthirster is mostly useful for the lane dominance.

    After this buy a zeal, and upgrade to berserker's greaves if you haven't already. After zeal you go down one of several paths:
    1) If you're getting CC'ed or dying to magic, by Quicksilver sash.
    2) If 2 or more enemies have armor items, buy last whisper. It is better than other damage items.
    3) If you have no lifesteal, a single vamp scepter is very, very good.
    4) If none of these apply, finish phantom dancer.

    Other items are very, very situational - madred's if everyone is building warmog's and atma's and has no magic resist, banshee's veil vs very fed akali/kassadin, maybe wit's end under some circumstance?

    If you have IE/phantom dancer and don't need any other items, build another phantom dancer. If you have bloodthirster/phantom dancer and don't need any other items, buy an infinity edge.

    A few carries have certain other rules:
    1) Trist should not build bloodthirster or wriggle's, ever, because her midgame is terrible. She is good in lane but needs IE as fast as possible after that.
    2) Ashe should not get bloodthirster for the same reason, but her laning is bad enough that sometimes she just desperately needs wriggle's.
    3) Vayne prioritizes attack speed. Black cleaver is my first item on her. She also has fairly bad range, so I like banshee's veil more than I otherwise would.
    4) Kog'maw can either build as above, or he can go wit's end -> madred's bloodrazor -> frozen mallet. This build gives him armor and magic resist in addition to health, making him a bulky artillery of doom. It's good if your team has a lot of physical and little magic damage.
    5) Urgot, Twitch, and Sivir all build completely differently from this.
    6) Corki and Ezreal can get trinity force, though I think sheen -> bloodthirster -> trinity force is better than rushing the trinity. If you're losing lane still get infinity edge.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    1) Trist should not build bloodthirster or wriggle's, ever, because her midgame is terrible. She is good in lane but needs IE as fast as possible after that.
    ...Beg pardon? I swear by Bloodthirster on Trist, always before IE, and Wriggle's is actually rather good on her.
    Last edited by Djinn_in_Tonic; 2011-10-20 at 02:27 PM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    It's good in lane, because lifesteal is really good. The problem is after laning phase - if you got fed, there are no problems, because you're fed so whatever. But if you just went even in lane, lost lane, or even just zoned them and didn't get fed, all you have is an attack speed steroid and spells that are rapidly becoming irrelevant because of lack of AP.

    Bloodthirster's main damage advantage over IE is the extra 20 AD - it makes abilities that scale off of AD work better. It's very good on champions like graves (Q and R), MF (Q and R), corki, and ezreal. But it doesn't synergize with tristana at all, and IE adds significantly more damage output to her autos, which is what 700 range and her Q is good for.

    Basically her midgame is bad, and so she wants to be at lategame as fast as possible. Wriggle's won't help you get there, and bloodthirster is really more for midgame than IE.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic View Post
    ...Beg pardon? I swear by Bloodthirster on Trist, always before IE, and Wriggle's is actually rather good on her.
    Yeah, I agree with Djinn here. Wriggles is amazing sustain if you have a non-sustain support or if you are soloing a lane (solo top, ward, shove the lane HARD, you just got a tower in 15 minutes np).

    Trist has terrible mid game, yeah, but most of the carries have terrible midgame, which is why they rush IE and stuff.

    Bloodthrister first on Trist usually isn't a good idea, IMO. IE+PhantomDancer+QQS seems the standard build.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    Bloodthirster's main damage advantage over IE is the extra 20 AD - it makes abilities that scale off of AD work better. It's very good on champions like graves (Q and R), MF (Q and R), corki, and ezreal. But it doesn't synergize with tristana at all, and IE adds significantly more damage output to her autos, which is what 700 range and her Q is good for.

    Basically her midgame is bad, and so she wants to be at lategame as fast as possible. Wriggle's won't help you get there, and bloodthirster is really more for midgame than IE.
    Um...60+% AS speed steroid doesn't synergize with lifesteal and AD how again? It's incredibly amazing synergy, and lets you farm longer (more sustain = more farming), which leads you to your late-game build earlier (more gold = more items).

    I wouldn't get Wriggle's + BT before IE, but I'd definitely get one or the other before IE...I favor Bloodthirster, but each to their own.

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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    Yeah, I agree with Djinn here. Wriggles is amazing sustain if you have a non-sustain support or if you are soloing a lane (solo top, ward, shove the lane HARD, you just got a tower in 15 minutes np).

    Trist has terrible mid game, yeah, but most of the carries have terrible midgame, which is why they rush IE and stuff.

    Bloodthrister first on Trist usually isn't a good idea, IMO. IE+PhantomDancer+QQS seems the standard build.
    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    Yeah, I agree with Djinn here. Wriggles is amazing sustain if you have a non-sustain support or if you are soloing a lane (solo top, ward, shove the lane HARD, you just got a tower in 15 minutes np).
    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    Yeah, I agree with Djinn here.
    ...Did Toasty just agree with Djinn? Is the sky about to cave in?
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    Yeah, I agree with Djinn here. Wriggles is amazing sustain if you have a non-sustain support or if you are soloing a lane (solo top, ward, shove the lane HARD, you just got a tower in 15 minutes np).

    Trist has terrible mid game, yeah, but most of the carries have terrible midgame, which is why they rush IE and stuff.

    Bloodthrister first on Trist usually isn't a good idea, IMO. IE+PhantomDancer+QQS seems the standard build.
    Most carries have pretty good midgame. Ashe's is terrible except for arrow, but ezreal and corki both have the burst of a caster if you got sheen, cait's Q and R do a significant amount of damage, graves is massively overpowered midgame thanks to his burst, and kog's W is so good that he still has a good midgame. It's really just trist and ashe that have problems there, which is why I'd never build BT or wriggle's on her.

    Generally for sustain in lane, trist would rather have triple or double doran - it costs less, and it's really enough if you don't take bad trades. Your role is to farm, not to harass your opponents out of a lane - generally you're burst anyway, so if they try to trade with you, just try to kill them.
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    Default Re: League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta

    Quote Originally Posted by ShortOne View Post
    ...Did Toasty just agree with Djinn? Is the sky about to cave in?
    I agree with Djinn because Djinn agrees with Chaox.

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