PF Only: Cleric or Ninja?

[Man With Dog]

So I decided one one class to make for an upcoming AP (Kingmaker) so BIG thankyou to those who gave me idea's.
The idea's given work really well after a few levels but I need something to start with too.
Starting at level 1 what do you people think works best?

Someone before mentioned the Fanatical Cleric (idea sounds fun but only if i am a warring Cleric)

or Secondly - The Ninja - they look awesome and the flavour/fluff combo makes alot of fun.

With a 20pt buy (and allowance to use a slightly lower gold amount that rich parents trait)
What do you playgrounders think would be best to start with?
Idea's of stat allocation or feats?
Even weaponry.

Most know i love all idea's and i investigate all i can soon as i hear a thing that triggers my imagination so i hope you all can give me an idea or two

[Yora]

It's always best to have a character with abilities that the other players don't have.

[Man With Dog]

It's always best to have a character with abilities that the other players don't have.

Both these characters have that covered but we are checing with eachother before we make too similar a character.
I am not going healer this time as i had the last one and do find it too boring so the idea's i posted above are hopefully gonna be alot more fun

[Rentaromon]

a cleric is realy only a buffer and a healer, or a nerfer and a weak nuker.

A ninja looks like fun and ive been planning on looking into them more, if u want fun go ninja!

[Man With Dog]

a cleric is realy only a buffer and a healer, or a nerfer and a weak nuker.

A ninja looks like fun and ive been planning on looking into them more, if u want fun go ninja!

If i go Ninja - i belive i need Dex and Charisma overall?
I am working from memory currently but i think Charisma modifier controls their Ki pool which lets them use all their funky/fluff abilities right?

And dex of course is gonna be needed fpr all the sneaky sneaky stuffs

Stats looking something like: 16 14 14 13 11 7... means i can go half elf for instance. Skill Focus: Perception - Acrobatics or Wherever stealth comes in.
+2 to Dex or Cha?

[Man With Dog]

An idea could be:

Ninja - Traits: Rich Parents (will be lowered dlightly)
Masterwork Weapon (if i can trick him)

+2 Stat to Dex or Cha.
Str: 14
Con: 13
Dex: 16
Int: 7
Wis:11
Cha: 14

Feats I would need time with the book infront of me unless anyone has any idea's. I am wanting to be a sneaky sneaky Ninja so may stick Skill Focus into Stealth (or go with old faithful Perception)

Any tips here?

[Little Brother]

Go Cleric. Ninjas are TERRIBLE. AWFUL. Rogues are better. It's T1 v. T5, there shouldn't be a question.

[Man With Dog]

Go Cleric. Ninjas are TERRIBLE. AWFUL. Rogues are better. It's T1 v. T5, there shouldn't be a question.

Could elaborate with an idea?

Not wanting to go as main healer either by the way so need to be able to smack stuff about pretty well if possible.
I understand it may take time to buff myself etc

[Drelua]

Go Cleric. Ninjas are TERRIBLE. AWFUL. Rogues are better. It's T1 v. T5, there shouldn't be a question.

Are you talking about the 3.5 Ninja? Pathfinder's Ninja is basically a rogue variant with full access to rogue talents and a ki pool that does a bunch of stuff. No sudded strike or unarmoured AC, either; they get full sneak attack and light armour proficiency.

Oh, and if you go ninja, definitely take a katana or a pair of wakazashi, since they're proficient.

[Curious]

Go Cleric. Ninjas are TERRIBLE. AWFUL. Rogues are better. It's T1 v. T5, there shouldn't be a question.

I don't think you are thinking of the ninja we are talking about. PF Ninja is tier 3-4.

In fact, here is the Ninja.

[Hazard_Pay]

Could elaborate with an idea?

Not wanting to go as main healer either by the way so need to be able to smack stuff about pretty well if possible.
I understand it may take time to buff myself etc

Well he meant on the Teir system, clerics are way better than a Ninja...
Short version Teir system description - more bang for your buck
Clerics can fill multiple party roles because they have a decidely advantageous amount of abilities and spells.

Ninja's are more focused, they sneak, stab, and talk well. (A Rogue with flavor?)

Whether this makes them awful or not is up to how you play either of those classes.

The Teir system is a guideline, not a commandment.

I will say that I have had more fun playing an evil cleric of Asmodeus than anything I else I have ever played.

[Little Brother]

Could elaborate with an idea?

Not wanting to go as main healer either by the way so need to be able to smack stuff about pretty well if possible.
I understand it may take time to buff myself etc

Uh, anything any non-tier one class class can do, they can do better, except in a few cases, like the mailman. You can DMM your buffs, so just spend an extra 5 minutes/day, and you have buffs that last for a day(Or two if you feel cheesy). Plus, if you really want to be able to throw DMM like nobody else, just be an Azurin cleric for a bonus feat and Channel Incarnum. This is important. Then dip into Sacred Exorcist, for Turn Undead, since Channel Incarnum replaces Turn Undead. Then, if you want, I recommend it, take a level in Death Delver for Rebuke(and free, continuous EX Deathwatch, and a couple of eh spells a few times a day), which means you get 3 times the turns any other cleric gets, plus 3 times the benefit of Nightsticks and Extra Turning. DMM means nothing, now.

Otherwise, it's kinda hard to do a cleric wrong. You have a spell that gives you +20 on a check, you have "I have full BAB," you have everything, really.

Are you talking about the 3.5 Ninja? Pathfinder's Ninja is basically a rogue variant with full access to rogue talents and a ki pool that does a bunch of stuff. No sudded strike or unarmoured AC, either; they get full sneak attack and light armour proficiency.

Oh, and if you go ninja, definitely take a katana or a pair of wakazashi, since they're proficient.

I don't think you are thinking of the ninja we are talking about. PF Ninja is tier 3-4.

In fact, here is the Ninja.

Oops, sorry

Well he meant on the Teir system, clerics are way better than a Ninja...
Short version Teir system description - more bang for your buck
Clerics can fill multiple party roles because they have a decidely advantageous amount of abilities and spells.

Ninja's are more focused, they sneak, stab, and talk well. (A Rogue with flavor?)

Whether this makes them awful or not is up to how you play either of those classes.

The Teir system is a guideline, not a commandment.

I will say that I have had more fun playing an evil cleric of Asmodeus than anything I else I have ever played.

I would play a cleric. The Ninja is trying to be a magical rogue, but, honestly, anything its magic can do, from a skim, the Cleric can do, too. It's flat out better.

But, if you want to play a rogue, I suggest getting Heward's Handy Haversack, a bunch of marbles(Why yes, I do in fact like an effective grease spell that works in an antimagic field), Acidic Fire, Aboleth Mucus(No, you can't breathe air. No, this is not a poison.), etc, and play Batman. Use your roguiness to get you moneys.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Could elaborate with an idea?

Not wanting to go as main healer either by the way so need to be able to smack stuff about pretty well if possible.
I understand it may take time to buff myself etc

Clerics are tier 1. CoDzilla was created to show the absurdity of core-only. The CoD stands for cleric or druid.

However, ninjas are good too.

[Hazard_Pay]

I would play a cleric. The Ninja is trying to be a magical rogue, but, honestly, anything its magic can do, from a skim, the Cleric can do, too. It's flat out better.

But, if you want to play a rogue, I suggest getting Heward's Handy Haversack, a bunch of marbles(Why yes, I do in fact like an effective grease spell that works in an antimagic field), Acidic Fire, Aboleth Mucus(No, you can't breathe air. No, this is not a poison.), etc, and play Batman. Use your roguiness to get you moneys.

Oh I agree, I'd probably play the cleric as well.. but some days you want to get your 'Sam Fisher/Solid Snake/Altaïr" on. If only for the sake of RP/flavor

[Tokuhara]

I suggest Ninja

Go Crit-Fishing

Enjoy

[Man With Dog]

I am a huge fan of fluff I must say.

I think that is the idea of 'The Ninja' and the main reason I am interested in playing them. Might be hard to make the stats work, even with a free reign on standard races.
Dont think any race has plusses to both Charisma and Dexterity (standard races that is) Dont know if there is an elf subrace that does or not?

[Gullintanni]

I am a huge fan of fluff I must say.

I think that is the idea of 'The Ninja' and the main reason I am interested in playing them. Might be hard to make the stats work, even with a free reign on standard races.
Dont think any race has plusses to both Charisma and Dexterity (standard races that is) Dont know if there is an elf subrace that does or not?

There aren't a lot of races that offer Cha bonuses in general. Consider maybe an Elf (For the dex bonus) with the Magic Blooded (+2 Cha, -2 Wis) template? Magic Blooded is 3.0 content though, so check with your DM. I'm not sure which sourcebook it's from but one of the other playgrounders should be able to help with that.

[Man With Dog]

There aren't a lot of races that offer Cha bonuses in general. Consider maybe an Elf (For the dex bonus) with the Magic Blooded (+2 Cha, -2 Wis) template? Magic Blooded is 3.0 content though, so check with your DM. I'm not sure which sourcebook it's from but one of the other playgrounders should be able to help with that.

If its not in PF then currently he will not allow it. I know there are a few races that offer one or the other but as i said, not sure if there is a way to get both or what way i should have my stats distributed?

[Gullintanni]

If its not in PF then currently he will not allow it. I know there are a few races that offer one or the other but as i said, not sure if there is a way to get both or what way i should have my stats distributed?

Ah well...nixes that suggestion then. I'm not really familiar with PF. I know most of the core stuff, but if the solution to dilemma was in core, you'd have probably found the solution already.

Good luck!

[Luckmann]

Both!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Dont think any race has plusses to both Charisma and Dexterity (standard races that is) Dont know if there is an elf subrace that does or not?

Halfling does.

[Curious]

As does Drow.

[Luckmann]

As does Drow.

Drow are not a standard race.

[Curious]

Drow are not a standard race.

But it is PF, and available in the Bestiary.

[Luckmann]

But it is PF, and available in the Bestiary.

Never said it wasn't.

[Mustard]

Assuming that bestiary races are out, forget trying to get +2 on both those stats. Instead, pick one of the single +2 to anything races, or one of the other +2/+2/-2 ones, with one +2 on your stat of choice, and the remaining +2/-2 on things you don't care about too much. That's about the best you can do.

Often, trying to maximize stats is a very difficult process to cope with -- you'll struggled to find the elusive, ideal amount. Oftentimes you get an odd stat, for instance. So here is a little psychological trick to help smooth the experience a little: Buy ability scores for this character using 15 point buy. In doing so, you will identify and refine your priorities. Then, once you have done that, spend 5 more points on ability scores to gain back things you might have missed. Use a calculator like this one rather than a table (Your other thread seemed to imply that's what you were doing), so that you can shift around values as needed.

It's kind of like flipping a coin to decide between two things you're torn between; you check the result and realize that yes, that is what you wanted, or, no, you don't like the result, you'll go with the other one.

[Drelua]

Halfling does.

Assuming that bestiary races are out, forget trying to get +2 on both those stats. Instead, pick one of the single +2 to anything races, or one of the other +2/+2/-2 ones, with one +2 on your stat of choice, and the remaining +2/-2 on things you don't care about too much. That's about the best you can do.

It seems you've been ignored, Jade Dragon. a Halfling would make a great ninja with the bonuses to Dexterity and Charisma and the size bonus to stealth, among other things.

[Man With Dog]

It seems you've been ignored, Jade Dragon. a Halfling would make a great ninja with the bonuses to Dexterity and Charisma and the size bonus to stealth, among other things.

Not ignored at all, just wasnt here to respond hehe :-p

Issue i have with the little guys is speed - when sneaing (which id like to be doing alot) they dont move as quickly as the medium races
((EDIT: Also small weapon damage))

I guess for every plus point with a race, theres a downside too

[Man With Dog]

No more idea' s or advances on this?

I would love stat allocation idea's, racial adjustments with bonus' idea's.
(e.g: Half Elf - skill focus: Stealth for instance if i made the Ninja)

Any idea's i am open to - even if you say actually - these classes such in Kingmaker but a Barbarian rules all - this is why... As i said, i will listen to everything and am thankful for everyones time.

Just indecisive and looking for that special spark of inspiration.
(Currently Ninja is being favoured by me for the early levels - Cleric would probably be better for lvl 5-6ish onwards imo)

[Mustard]

It seems you've been ignored, Jade Dragon. a Halfling would make a great ninja with the bonuses to Dexterity and Charisma and the size bonus to stealth, among other things.

Well, I left it out because it was already mentioned. Though not adding, "other than halflings" was purposeful. It was a little playful jab at them. I have a mental block on small races because I'm too lazy to work out weapon sizes and all that stuff . I played one for a couple sessions, caster though. There are some really interesting feats for halflings and small creatures, which IIRC would be nice for a ninja.
(Edit: I know weapon damage for small creatures is a simple matter of looking at at the value right next to the value for medium creatures, but I am just that lazy. Well, not really "lazy", more like "exaggerating the amount of work due to bias".)