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    Default CR Testing

    The order of the battles shall be ECL 5 Grog, ECL 5 Cleric with a rebuked Allip, then ECL 5 Druid. Every battle shall be run twice, once with the Ogre Mage winning Init and once with the player winning init. I'll post again when I have Grog ready with equipment. Boots of Levitation are a tad specific for this. I'll make every character as though he/she were an adventurer ready for everything. This may seem like high-op to you, but it's not. If I were doing High-Op, Grog would only have 1 level of Barbarian, not 4, The Cleric would DMM everything, and the Druid would have Awakened Fleshraker Dinosaur Druid Animal Companions.
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Ready. Shax's Haversack is here. I took it for convenience. If you claim that it's optimized, I'm going to flat out tell you you're wrong. Most of that stuff is plain old useless for Grog.

    Which battle would you like to start with? Ogre goes first or Grog goes first?
    Last edited by Bridgar; 2011-10-21 at 08:09 PM.
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    - Shax's Haversack is here.
    you can take it, but without all the 3.0 junk . if you want to prove broken ness of the new revision, using pre-revision stuff is not done.
    (I'm seeing Oriental Adventures, Song & Silence, ...)

    - edit: the only way you would be able to start with an allip is if the DM allows it. I already stated that I found low level clerics with allips overpowered - so there is simply no way you'dd be able to start with one. On the other hand, you are able to cast animate dead, I will allow Human Warrior Skeletons and Human Commoner Zombie. Other undead are either to uncommon, or can't hide enough from local authorities.


    time to tell a tale ..
    You've found a letter on the bullitin board, asking for help against ogre raids. You're certain you can handle a couple a couple of ogres, and a extra bag of coin is always nifty. in full confidance you don't need any help, you rip the letter of the board and make your way to the mounatins - weapon in hand, you march through the front gate.

    after a 10 minute walk through deforested plains (aka, no real terrain features), make a spot check.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    Which battle would you like to start with? Ogre goes first or Grog goes first?
    first? I can do 6 battles at once.
    - 6 spoiler blocks and a short history in each
    (the first blocks you win init, the second I do)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Qube: Grog needs a spot check
    edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save as well...

    Spoiler
    Show
    Qube: Grog needs a spot check
    edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save as well...

    Spoiler
    Show
    Qube: cleric needs a spot check
    edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

    Spoiler
    Show
    Qube: cleric needs a spot check
    edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

    Spoiler
    Show
    Qube: druid needs a spot check
    edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

    Spoiler
    Show
    Qube: druid needs a spot check
    edit: and to speed things up: a reflex save per character as well...

    edit2 as I like Dracks idea, one more ...
    Spoiler
    Show
    Qube: all 3 PCs make a spot check, and everyone make a 3 reflex safes to speed things up
    Last edited by qube; 2011-10-22 at 04:00 AM.
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    1. This is an arena to show the failures of the CR system, there is no story.
    2. The arena is 100'x100'x100' and we start 30' away.
    3. There are no spot checks involved, this is once the battle has started. You can assume that if the Ogre Mage wins init, the PC hasn't seen him. The opposite will also be true, though.
    4. I only have Grog's sheet done. You'll have to wait on the other battles.
    5. Why can a Cleric not use his class feature to rebuke undead? Why not that undead specifically? Are you saying it's too powerful for its CR?
    6. We'll assume that I don't have anything 3.0 in my bag. A&EG is still allowed, as nothing out of that book has changed and it was a direct, primary supplement to Core. Oriental Adventures got erratad. All I lose is the expandable pole from Song & Silence.
    7. If you use an illusion or trick, PC gets a save to disbelieve. If he fails, he's tricked. If he succeeds, he knows.



    Grog First:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Free Action:Rage
    Full Round Action:Charge (entirely adjacent)
    (1d20+16)[18] vs Flatfooted
    (3d6+16)[23] damage


    Ogre First:
    Spoiler
    Show

    Your move.
    Last edited by Bridgar; 2011-10-22 at 07:51 AM.
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    My life has taken a massive change for the... different. I have spent nearly all of my time away from home and haven't slept in my own bed in days. I apologize deeply for any games that I have killed or stopped responding to. I'm not sure if I will be able to recommit time to such ventures but as of right now, I'm fairly confident that I cannot. Again, I'm sorry for any games I have killed.

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    This is an arena to show the failures of the CR system, there is no story.
    then i aint doing this.
    sry.

    edit: 2 people can make ultimatums.
    if you want practical? OK. i'll lend you my time - but its my way or the highway

    conditi sine qua non
    Last edited by qube; 2011-10-22 at 08:06 AM.
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    why no story? The ogre has been coming to the village nightly and stealing children, the adventurer is going to their cave in order to slay the awful beast... admittedly not much of a story, but it is for an encounter rather than a campaign... (naturally taken children are eaten) Edit: well either way, bridgar a pinch of fluff won't kill you.

    Lets see here, no surprise round, initiative is won by each in turn, bridgar some of those consumables are rather powerful, but as you said you're not using them oh well

    As for cleric, I don't generally start every wizard off with undeads, it's convenient, but I think you're on your own, especially as by RAW only level 8+ clerics can command Allips
    Last edited by drack; 2011-10-22 at 09:02 AM.

    "If people are creatures of habit, and their behavior an intricate pattern, then madness might be defined as a pattern so complex or different from your own that you fail to comprehend it."

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by drack View Post
    why no story? The ogre has been coming to the village nightly and stealing children, the adventurer is going to their cave in order to slay the awful beast... admittedly not much of a story, but it is for an encounter rather than a campaign... (naturally taken children are eaten)
    but ogre mages are anything but dumb. playing them so would indeed underpower them.
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    You can come to a village nightly and steal children without being dumb about it, after all where else will you find that great flavor for your stew? but in all honesty either story works. Personally I wouldn't think an ogre mage would be without subordinates, but than again nor would the party member, so go ahead

    "If people are creatures of habit, and their behavior an intricate pattern, then madness might be defined as a pattern so complex or different from your own that you fail to comprehend it."

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    look, point is, according to you Bridgar, my campaigns are underpowered because I use the CR system.

    I don't use that system in a void.

    if you want a taste of the CR system as I use it - sure. but don't be dictating the DM (me) the rules of engagement.

    want my CR system? gotta play by my rules.
    want your CR system? you don't need me for that. have fun.



    pfff all this bickering made me lose intrest in DMming low level. back to my lvl30.
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    qube just DM a simple encounter through which to illustrate your point giving bridgar a level appropriate encounter for his level. Trust me it's simpler

    "If people are creatures of habit, and their behavior an intricate pattern, then madness might be defined as a pattern so complex or different from your own that you fail to comprehend it."

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    my CR system in action. (kill-pc mode)

    You've found a letter on the bullitin board, asking for help against ogre raids. You're certain you can handle a couple a couple of ogres, and a extra bag of coin is always nifty. in full confidance you don't need any help, you rip the letter of the board and make your way to the mounatins - weapon in hand, you march through the front gate...


    [sblock]the ogre mage lives (change shape) in the city as guarding on a tower facing the road to his home. and thus sees any adventurer leave for it. (as the distance between the (top of) tower and the road is several 100 ft, no spot to see through the disguise of this 'random' guard)

    he sees the PC he waits a few minutes, and then goes after him (looking for them while flying invis. recasting it every 5 minutes (with 9 minute duratipn, that means he has it if he sees the party)[/sblock]

    after a 10 minute walk through deforested plains (aka, no real terrain features), make a spot check.

    (1d20)[2]+spot- 6 for distance and a -2 circumstance as you get aatacked from the back, against DC 20 invis

    the ogre mage*, and all who succeed get a supprize round.
    * who is flying 50 up 15 behind you.

    ogre mage supprize round is cone of cold on the party (normally,this drains enough resources to constitude as 20percent of resources of the party = moderate encounter)
    (1d20)[2]+reflex vs DC18.(9d6)[21] damage

    during his first round the ogre mage is smart enough to see grog is a mellee-guy. sp he fly up and use longbow (nice range!) to hail grog to death.

    if needed he 'll go invis and fly for a few bonusrounds for regeneration.


    what I do when I suspect metagaming (without proof)
    [sblock]
    just happen to have a 900gp of Feather Token Whip and tree, while unknown that you're is fighting a flying enemy?
    possible? yes. probbable ...IMHO ... no. (sry, Im paranoid)

    as DM, metagaming is one of the things I realy dislike, which is why I will pull out an other of my DMs tricks. When I suspect metagaming, I like to do something that even the players didn't expect. - hence making metagaming impossible.

    Instead of engaging the enemy, the ogre mage flies over and releases his pet hydra (which was guared the cave of his subject ogres. - think like cerberus)
    (a 8 headed pyrohydra. same CR , so no problem)

    the ogre mage makes the hydra attack by giving 1 head some food, and fireing a blood dipped arrow in the direction of the PC (like a bloody game of apport - and longbow has a pretty sick range if you're not planning to hit anything).
    [/spoiler]
    while walking through the forrest you hear a wisstle and followed by a thundering sound. suddenly a hydra charges through the dense foilage

    both roll init
    [spoiler]
    (in what would constitude as a supprize round (or animated intro): the 8 headed pyrohydra moves adjacent.
    (hydra is not flatfooted. - and yes,I know I could have partial charged Grog and 8xattacked him. I'm not that cheap.)

    hydra uses 50percent fire attacks 50 percent normal. if a head fails to deal firedamage (evasion, resistance), that head doesn't use fire on that enemy anymore
    [/sblock]
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by drack View Post
    qube just DM a simple encounter through which to illustrate your point giving bridgar a level appropriate encounter for his level. Trust me it's simpler
    fine simple encounter? 8h-pyrohydra it is.


    start adjacent
    both are not supprized

    rolls for hypdra full attack.
    (1d20+11)[21] vs 15 (1d10+4)[9]
    (1d20+11)[17] vs 15 (1d10+4)[6]
    (1d20+11)[16] vs 15 (1d10+4)[11]
    (1d20+11)[12] vs 15 (1d10+4)[7]
    (1d20+11)[31] vs 15 (1d10+4)[12]
    (1d20+11)[13] vs 15 (1d10+4)[5]
    (1d20+11)[13] vs 15 (1d10+4)[8]
    (1d20+11)[28] vs 15 (1d10+4)[6]
    Last edited by qube; 2011-10-22 at 11:56 AM.
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    and a crit roll
    (1d20+11)[25] vs 14 (1d10+4)[5]
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    oh I see grog already had rolls...
    Free Action:Rage
    Full Round Action:Charge (entirely adjacent)
    (1d20+16)[18] vs Flatfooted
    (3d6+16)[23] damage
    withou the bonus from charge, ye miss. (dude you rolled a 2... not fun for glass canons...) then again if the hydra goes first, he also rolled bad.

    rolls for if Grog goes first - he's now raging

    (1d20+11)[24] vs 12 (1d10+4)[7]
    (1d20+11)[30] vs 12 (1d10+4)[11]
    (1d20+11)[12] vs 12 (1d10+4)[14]
    (1d20+11)[15] vs 12 (1d10+4)[6]
    (1d20+11)[31] vs 12 (1d10+4)[8]
    (1d20+11)[21] vs 12 (1d10+4)[12]
    (1d20+11)[15] vs 12 (1d10+4)[8]
    (1d20+11)[19] vs 12 (1d10+4)[14]

    possible crit rolls
    (1d20+11)[21] vs 12 (1d10+4)[5]
    (1d20+11)[23] vs 12 (1d10+4)[10]
    (1d20+11)[27] vs 12 (1d10+4)[14]
    (1d20+11)[19] vs 12 (1d10+4)[12]
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    summery

    GROG GOES FIRST
    - Grog rages (now 63hp) bearly misses.
    - hydra deals 6 hits, 1 crit, 1 fumble: kills grog with 71 damage.
    hydra wins
    (if you want, you can hit the hydra with your charge, it matters not)

    HYDRA GOES FIRST
    - hydra deals 4 hits, 1 crit, 3 misses: grog gets 43 damage
    - Grog 's turn
    (if I charged, grog would be dead)

    edit: oops, that's CR7, a normal hydra. Oh well ...
    Last edited by qube; 2011-10-22 at 11:58 AM.
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    that undead specifically? Are you saying it's too powerful for its CR?
    I thought I explained this ?

    CR is vs party.

    a party usually has magic items.
    monsters usually don't.

    --> incorporeal is way stronger vs monsters then vs players.
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    I think that illustrates your point much better at least in my mind. (though that is somewhat reliant on a DM who knows what they're doing, and on the party not being level 3... hopefully )
    Last edited by drack; 2011-10-22 at 06:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    summery

    GROG GOES FIRST
    - Grog rages (now 63hp) bearly misses.
    - hydra deals 6 hits, 1 crit, 1 fumble: kills grog with 71 damage.
    hydra wins
    (if you want, you can hit the hydra with your charge, it matters not)

    HYDRA GOES FIRST
    - hydra deals 4 hits, 1 crit, 3 misses: grog gets 43 damage
    - Grog 's turn
    (if I charged, grog would be dead)

    edit: oops, that's CR7, a normal hydra. Oh well ...
    You don't see the discrepancy between how effective a Hydra is and how effective an Ogre Mage is? An Ogre Mage can, in the entire battle, deal 9d6 damage. The hydra can, in one round, deal 8d10+32. Even if you factor in that the Ogre Mage deals those 9d6 to everyone, it only gets one round of effectiveness before it's entirely useless. Its reach means nothing because you just 5' step and full attack anyway. It can fly, yes, but your Wizard can still blast, your Healer can still heal, and your Skillmonkey can still fire ranged attacks. The only person that the Ogre Mage is minorly effective against is the Glass Cannon, who kills it in one or two rounds if he goes first. The only shot the Ogre Mage really has is trying to kill the entire party with one Cone of Cold.

    The Hydra, on the other hand, gets much more healing, much more health, and much more damage output, which it can distribute amongst all those near it. It has a low move speed, but basically has uberpounce. It can always attack with all of its heads. That includes attacks of opportunity.

    You can't tell me that Hydras have the same level of effect on a party as an Ogre Mage. Can you name one single CR 21 monster that is as effective against a party as a Titan? I don't think you can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    You don't see the discrepancy between how effective a Hydra is and how effective an Ogre Mage is?
    in this arena? sure.

    but you got a no-prep time and start within charge range. come on, you must see that by desiding that, it is you who create that discrepancy between brutes and casters.

    heck most arena games I played (on line) had something of 3 rounds of prep time and about 100 ft distance of each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    An Ogre Mage can, in the entire battle, deal 9d6 damage. The hydra can, in one round, deal 8d10+32. Even if you factor in that the Ogre Mage deals those 9d6 to everyone, it only gets one round of effectiveness before it's entirely useless.
    and yet, in actual gameplay, it has no trouble killing Grog. (forget cone of cold. lets be cheezy and fly 500ft up and arrow Grog down) - the parameters YOU decided for the arena simply don't allow for the ogre mage to come to its right.

    You can't tell me that Hydras have the same level of effect on a party as an Ogre Mage.
    of course not, that hydra is CR7 and the ogre mage CR 8.

    --------------
    edit: want to try that? 3 prep rounds and start 100 ft distance?

    PRE-INIT OGRE MAGE:
    - round 1: ogre mage turns invis and flies up 20 ft
    - round 2: run action: 4x flies up 20 ft
    - round 3: 2x flies up 20 ft

    GROG WINS INIT (and is 100ft from where he saw the ogre mage dissapear.

    your 3 prep rounds, and your first turn please...

    edit2: as I suppose you don't want to metagame, I'll presume Grog doesn't know the ogre mage is flying. the ogre mage goes at a speed of 40 up/round (and moving to random square), so you can also post Grogs 2nd to 20th round. (as the ogre will go and fly to the maximum range increment, before he starts shooting his longbow. - killing grog with natural 20s)
    Last edited by qube; 2011-10-23 at 03:40 AM.
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    in this arena? sure.

    but you got a no-prep time and start within charge range. come on, you must see that by desiding that, it is you who create that discrepancy between brutes and casters.

    heck most arena games I played (on line) had something of 3 rounds of prep time and about 100 ft distance of each other.

    and yet, in actual gameplay, it has no trouble killing Grog. (forget cone of cold. lets be cheezy and fly 500ft up and arrow Grog down) - the parameters YOU decided for the arena simply don't allow for the ogre mage to come to its right.

    of course not, that hydra is CR7 and the ogre mage CR 8.

    --------------
    edit: want to try that? 3 prep rounds and start 100 ft distance?

    PRE-INIT OGRE MAGE:
    - round 1: ogre mage turns invis and flies up 20 ft
    - round 2: run action: 4x flies up 20 ft
    - round 3: 2x flies up 20 ft

    GROG WINS INIT (and is 100ft from where he saw the ogre mage dissapear.

    your 3 prep rounds, and your first turn please...

    edit2: as I suppose you don't want to metagame, I'll presume Grog doesn't know the ogre mage is flying. the ogre mage goes at a speed of 40 up/round (and moving to random square), so you can also post Grogs 2nd to 20th round. (as the ogre will go and fly to the maximum range increment, before he starts shooting his longbow. - killing grog with natural 20s)
    First off, I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle, as they solely favor the monsters. What all can be done in a prep round? Can I throw my Flour Pouch at him when he turns invisible? I think that's a viable option. If not, I use Feather Token Tree, cut it down, and burn it. Or, I just use a liquid smoke. Or, I just use my shapesand to make an impenetrable hemisphere around me, blocking the arrows. Or, I use Torch Bug Paste. I could do any number of things to even out the Ogre Mage's inability to fight on a level playing field. He will never be as effective against the party as the CR 8 9-headed hydra. He will never be as effective against the party as the CR 7, 6, or 5 hydras. Ogre Mage just sucks.

    You ignored my Titan request. Find me any CR 21 monster that can do to a party what a Titan can. Chain Lightning as a free action every round!
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    First off, I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle, as they solely favor the monsters.
    ONE

    rogue: we listen at the door
    DM: you hear the orcs
    rogue: ok ... I'm NOT telling the wizard this! he could cast mage armor or something

    demilich: odd ... someone triggered the alarm of my vault.
    *makes sure he has no protections spells on him* lets go take a looksy.

    TWO

    how would prep time benefit the monster if it was wizard vs hydra.

    THREE

    Im hearing recursive thinking
    CR is broken ---> you only want to test it your way --> conclude the CR must be broken.

    here is an analogy of your train of thought:
    I think screwdrivers don't work --> i whack screws until they are in the wood --> screwdrivers don't work!!

    So now you're complaining screwdrivers don't work. I say try turning the screw in.
    my screwdrivers work quite well, because I use them in such a way they work well.

    FOUR

    that probbably means I have more experience in battles.
    they add prep time so glass canons don't dominate every match.

    FIVE

    ok, no prep time. ogre mage starts 1000ft above the ground. better?
    should be a good compromise. no prep time and encountering flying creaures happen.yesterday, I saw a flying duck.
    or do you encounter only sitting ducks? (pun intended)

    SIX ROFL

    "I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle"? titan says:
    Prior to combat: Invisibility purge or invisibility.

    Chain Lightning as a free action every round!
    I don't get it? why are you marking your mistakes as bold and underlined?
    edit: i'll be nice and tell ya: they can only do that 3/day. - ref the feat they have to get this
    Last edited by qube; 2011-10-23 at 03:16 PM.
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    either way, this is my conclusion to this practical exersise.

    (new lyrics for this song)

    I make encounters, I go with the flow,
    the need for homebrew? I simply need RAW
    This is no lesson, but the start of my show.
    Make my games fun, that is the way I roll

    using all tricks, let me say it again,
    my CRs bring fun but can also bring pain.
    Don't wanna use it? there's is nothing I can do.
    but that's no problem for me, that's a problem for you
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    ONE

    rogue: we listen at the door
    DM: you hear the orcs
    rogue: ok ... I'm NOT telling the wizard this! he could cast mage armor or something

    demilich: odd ... someone triggered the alarm of my vault.
    *makes sure he has no protections spells on him* lets go take a looksy.

    TWO

    how would prep time benefit the monster if it was wizard vs hydra.

    THREE

    Im hearing recursive thinking
    CR is broken ---> you only want to test it your way --> conclude the CR must be broken.

    here is an analogy of your train of thought:
    I think screwdrivers don't work --> i whack screws until they are in the wood --> screwdrivers don't work!!

    So now you're complaining screwdrivers don't work. I say try turning the screw in.
    my screwdrivers work quite well, because I use them in such a way they work well.

    FOUR

    that probbably means I have more experience in battles.
    they add prep time so glass canons don't dominate every match.

    FIVE

    ok, no prep time. ogre mage starts 1000ft above the ground. better?
    should be a good compromise. no prep time and encountering flying creaures happen.yesterday, I saw a flying duck.
    or do you encounter only sitting ducks? (pun intended)

    SIX ROFL

    "I've never heard of prep rounds for a battle"? titan says:
    Prior to combat: Invisibility purge or invisibility.

    I don't get it? why are you marking your mistakes as bold and underlined?
    edit: i'll be nice and tell ya: they can only do that 3/day. - ref the feat they have to get this

    Again, you're masking the shortcomings of your argument by getting mad and assaulting my logic. You responded to neither challenge.

    Grog uses Flour Pouch, Feather Tree Token, Shapesand, Liquid Smoke, or Torch Bug Paste. Now that the Ogre Mage's strategy of not ploaying fair has been stopped, how can he possibly win?

    You haven't found a creature who can match a titan's ability to wreak havoc on a party. Can you name one CR 21 creature who can match a titan in fighting a party?
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    lets see, bridgar you weren't gonna use one use items so lets go with the ever-smoking bottle, dragons do a good job at dealing with a whole party... than again I've never faced a titan IC... qube, calm down I know you were having fun with the point that I was gonna have a field day with, but don't get carried away, and bridgar, prep rounds benefit the party more add a bulls strength to offset gained advantages, while I consider it silly I can see why some may use them.

    "If people are creatures of habit, and their behavior an intricate pattern, then madness might be defined as a pattern so complex or different from your own that you fail to comprehend it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by drack View Post
    lets see, bridgar you weren't gonna use one use items so lets go with the ever-smoking bottle, dragons do a good job at dealing with a whole party... than again I've never faced a titan IC... qube, calm down I know you were having fun with the point that I was gonna have a field day with, but don't get carried away, and bridgar, prep rounds benefit the party more add a bulls strength to offset gained advantages, while I consider it silly I can see why some may use them.
    Shapesand isn't one use. Shapesand can be reshaped with another Wis Check.

    In any case

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar
    Grog will most likely not be using Consumables, that's just a standard adventurer's kit, if you will.
    Grog doesn't use consumables unless the enemy forces him to. In this case, the enemy has forced him to.


    I think it only fair that if the Ogre Mage gets shenanigans, Grog gets them too.
    Last edited by Bridgar; 2011-10-23 at 08:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    Grog uses Flour Pouch, Feather Tree Token, Shapesand, Liquid Smoke, or Torch Bug Paste. Now that the Ogre Mage's strategy of not ploaying fair has been stopped, how can he possibly win?
    by waiting until the effect wares off.
    the ogre mage simply flies beyond Grog's range, while Grog remains in range

    look, the only way your barbarian is going to win is for him to get an item that grants flight. (boots of levi (7500gp) is not enough)
    - which is outside of the range of a level 5 PC (WBL9000gp in total)

    winged boots (15min fly, 16000) are not enough: you'll never get to him in in time (he can turn invis and run away way before you're in range to throw anti invis stuff)

    if you add the rule of max item cost is limited to half WBL, you won't win from him before you reach lvl 8.


    and that last sentence is enough for me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    You haven't found a creature who can match a titan's ability to wreak havoc on a party. Can you name one CR 21 creature who can match a titan in fighting a party?
    because

    (1) titans can't cast quicken chain lightning at will. - only 3 times. so I need a new baseline.

    (2) the number of CR21 creatures I have access ro is VERY low. what happened to CR8?

    (3) an augmented balor seems pretty sweet. dominate monster at will
    (and summon balor is also nice :) )
    RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgar View Post
    Shapesand isn't one use. Shapesand can be reshaped with another Wis Check.
    yes, but it's shapesand

    "If people are creatures of habit, and their behavior an intricate pattern, then madness might be defined as a pattern so complex or different from your own that you fail to comprehend it."

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    he doesn't use consumables unless the enemy forces him to." ...
    (1) isn't that logical? what's the alternative?
    Player 1: I drink a potion of cure light wounds
    DM: but ... You're on full hp !?
    Player 2: yeah, but I like the taiste

    (2) I don't care it's consumables. As I said, In the other thread: "you do realize, you're supposed to show how broken the CR system is, not how the right item saves the day"

    I think it only fair that if the Ogre Mage gets shenanigans, Grog gets them too.
    Starting a ogre mage in flight, and letting a monster use a longbow if that's on his statblock, that's just normal DMming.

    Flying 1000ft in the air is powerplay - but not shenanigans.
    ( I thought you wanted a real battle, not me cuddling you like I cuddle my RL players?


    This is shenanigans: Ogre Mages has Treasure: Double standard. There are 2 kind of DM's: those who play their monsters with treasure and those without. (I personally am of the opinion that they're not supposed to have/use that stuff, but there's no RAW proof one way or the other - which means - RAITAYCPIWN).
    so ... this Ogre Mage just happen to have a one time use +20 spellcraft item, and a gate-scroll. Enter Titan. (or some simelar tactick, I don't know how much Double standard would be). Now THAT constitutes as is shenanigans.


    Edit: This is also shenanigans: Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu.

    Edit2: This is shenanigans: terminal velocity 10ft metal bar.
    I drop my large greatsword from high distance on you while you're hiding under your anti-arrow dome. 20d6.
    Last edited by qube; 2011-10-24 at 07:38 AM.
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    Default Re: CR Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    Flying 1000ft in the air is powerplay - but not shenanigans.
    ( I thought you wanted a real battle, not me cuddling you like I cuddle my RL players?
    I think he wanted to see what you do with your RL players that makes the system work for them... also I suggest you stay within a range that your bow remains functional, and hope that bridgar doesn't find a forest and use his barbarian climb to be on you as soon as you enter to keep him within range (bridgar don't bother with climbing a tree to jump him it's a horrible plan, though it is usually plenty easy enoug to find cover...)

    "If people are creatures of habit, and their behavior an intricate pattern, then madness might be defined as a pattern so complex or different from your own that you fail to comprehend it."

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    Default Re: CR Testing

    The alternative is to actively use consumables rather than fighting with a weapon. It's what level 1 wizards do and it's what blastificers do.

    CR takes WBL into account. It's not the right item saving the day, it's the right item showing how incompetent the Ogre Mage is.

    How can you not see how pitiful this is? The Ogre Mage has to hide and attack in a way that it's not returned to have any chance of survival against a party that's 6.75 levels lower than it.

    By the way, you've been forgetting that Invisibility ends when you attack.

    Round 1: Ogre Mage is invisible, 100' up. He fires an arrow that does a pitiful 2d6 damage. Is now visible and has a move action left. Grog throws flour pouch or uses torch bug paste. Uses move action to activate Feather Token Tree.

    Round 2: Ogre Mage has the choice between shooting another arrow for 2d6 damage or spending a round flying down to melee combat. It doesn't matter which he chooses, Grog climbs the tree and starts whipping items at the Ogre Mage from behind a Shapesand barrier until the Ogre Mage dies. If the Ogre Mage goes into melee with him, Grog wins.

    Torch Bug Paste lasts an hour. If you're going to try to wait that one out... good luck.

    Any CR 21 should match his damage capabilities against a party if CR is as accurate as you say it is. It's a judge of how much impact you can have on a party, isn't it?

    First off, if you're bringing summoning into this, Titan just gates in an Elder Titan. Battle=over. Secondly, Dominate Monster at-will seems nice until you realize how low the DC is. By level 20, you should definitely have at least +17 to Will (this is a pitifully low number for 20, but it'll do) or have immunity to mind-affecting. Thirdly, you're not taking into account that which you guarded so vigorously for the Ogre Mage: surprise. You can't exactly disguise a Balor and they don't want to be disguised. A Titan, on the other hand, has Change Shape (Medium or Small). It also retains its Gargantuan weapons. Picture a friendly gnome in a bar. You say the wrong thing to him and he pulls out an indestructible hammer bigger than you and starts pummeling you with it, his body exuding enough lightning to kill every patron of the bar.
    Awesome Avvy thanks to flumphy. Fear the Daelkyr!!!

    My life has taken a massive change for the... different. I have spent nearly all of my time away from home and haven't slept in my own bed in days. I apologize deeply for any games that I have killed or stopped responding to. I'm not sure if I will be able to recommit time to such ventures but as of right now, I'm fairly confident that I cannot. Again, I'm sorry for any games I have killed.

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