CR Testing

[Bridgar]

No. My point with Titans is that CR still means nothing. CR 21 Titan is better than CR 21 most anything else, proving the variance of CR. Once there's variance in a scale, it's useless. If the lines on your ruler were different at different hours of the day, would you still use it?

Also, you get -100 to spot Grog from 1000 feet away. Good luck with that...

[drack]

odd ... that's the point I made that started all this, being that low levels shouldn't be able to beat high CR monsters - not to mention lvl 30 gestalts.

Bidgar disagreed, so I thought, he's bringing titans back, I'll finally see ÉCL5 Grog beat the titan.

nope, he was saying that CR groups are uneven and a CR10 could present a tougher challenge than CR16 or the like. H was saying that the CR system it's self can't be relied on in order to gauge strength of encounters so much as the stats, abilities, and such themselves do.

[qube]

nope, he was saying that CR groups are uneven and a CR10 could present a tougher challenge than CR16 or the like

you sure? he srongly disagreed with
"level 10 massivaly broken as he should not be able to solo a tarrasque or something"
So I though. Grog, titan. not really lvl10 vs cr20, but he has confedance in his own capabilities.

Once there's variance in a scale, it's useless.

The world tends to disagree with you. Its called the acceptable margin of error. For example:

If the lines on your ruler were different at different hours of the day, would you still use it?. It is.
- temperature in the room
- moisture of the room (if its made from wood)
- speed I (the observer) move (Eisteins theory of relativity)
- position of the ruler. (a vertical one has more gravital pull at the bottom)
- hour of the day/stance of the moon (again gravital pull)
... and the list goes on and on

all modify the length of a ruler. but all do it within the acceptable margin of error.

Best you got is proof there are certain creatures might have the wrong number. ... nothing more.

Also, you get -100 to spot Grog from 1000 feet away. Good luck with that...

Good point. I would reccon they start when one sees the other. (+4/+8 is for difference in size)
Spot Grog (1d20+9)[12]
Spot Titan (1d20+36)[42]
Titan wins. uses invisibiliy spell (as specified in his tactics)
round 1 Titan cast quicken chain lightning and fries Grog.



edit: could you up Grog to ECL10?
edit2: to pit him against a CR 20 monster, you see. Decided by random die once Grog is finished

[Bridgar]

you sure? he srongly disagreed with
"level 10 massivaly broken as he should not be able to solo a tarrasque or something"
So I though. Grog, titan. not really lvl10 vs cr20, but he has confedance in his own capabilities.

You're completely missing everything that he and I are saying...

The world tends to disagree with you. Its called the acceptable margin of error. For example:

If the lines on your ruler were different at different hours of the day, would you still use it?. It is.
- temperature in the room
- moisture of the room (if its made from wood)
- speed I (the observer) move (Eisteins theory of relativity)
- position of the ruler. (a vertical one has more gravital pull at the bottom)
- hour of the day/stance of the moon (again gravital pull)
... and the list goes on and on

all modify the length of a ruler. but all do it within the acceptable margin of error.

Yes, and if it were that small of a difference, I would understand. It's not, though. On a scale of 1-23 (as per core), 8 can be less than 3 at times. That's like 4 inches being less than 1.5 inches. Is that within an acceptable margin of error?

Good point. I would reccon they start when one sees the other. (+4/+8 is for difference in size)
Spot Grog [roll0]
Spot Titan [roll1]
Titan wins. uses invisibiliy spell (as specified in his tactics)
round 1 Titan cast quicken chain lightning and fries Grog.

We're still talking about Grog vs Ogre Mage. The only person who's talking about Grog vs Titan is you. I talked about Titan's damage to a party vs Balor's damage to a party. Try to keep our conversations straight, I know it's hard.

Anyways, Ogre Mage fires arrows down 1000 feet, Grog sees one arrow, makes a pitiful attempt at hiding, and then the Ogre Mage can no longer target him due to the -100 on spot. Looks like your defense of the incompetent isn't as strong as you thought it was. There is now absolutely no situation in which Grog (party level 1.25) can lose to an Ogre Mage (encounter level 8). Your CR system really isn't looking too good.

edit: could you up Grog to ECL10?
edit2: to pit him against a CR 20 monster, you see. Decided by random die once Grog is finished

It'd involve templates. You'd call it broken. What you don't realize is that martials need things like templates and dips to match casters, who are powerful, but not broken. The only way to balance power between casters and noncasters without simply nerfing casters out the a** is to bring noncasters up to that level. I'm sure you're in favor of nerfing casters out the a**, but that's because you're afraid of power. You think that the power level that monsters were designed at is the one true power level. It's not!

[drack]

We're still talking about Grog vs Ogre Mage. The only person who's talking about Grog vs Titan is you. I talked about Titan's damage to a party vs Balor's damage to a party. Try to keep our conversations straight, I know it's hard.
that was taken as one example, you challenged the CR system not just the CR of the ogre mage right?

It'd involve templates. You'd call it broken. What you don't realize is that martials need things like templates and dips to match casters, who are powerful, but not broken. The only way to balance power between casters and noncasters without simply nerfing casters out the a** is to bring noncasters up to that level. I'm sure you're in favor of nerfing casters out the a**, but that's because you're afraid of power. You think that the power level that monsters were designed at is the one true power level. It's not!
I could judge... after all I believe both of you have considered me more or less reasonable...

(qube, again I apologize for being so reasonable and forcing you to agree with me by sheer logic and good sense )

[qube]

Yes, and if it were that small of a difference, I would understand. It's not, though. On a scale of 1-23 (as per core), 8 can be less than 3 at times. That's like 4 inches being less than 1.5 inches. Is that within an acceptable margin of error?

Yes it is. IRL we use scales with very big margins of error.

Take the Richter scale vs Mercalli scale.

Richter: a single number to quantify the energy contained in an earthquake.
Mercalli: The scale quantifies the effects of an earthquake on the Earth's surface, humans, objects of nature, and man-made structures on a scale from I (not felt) to XII (total destruction)

Nearly the whole world uses Richter.
Yet in case of an earthquake, except for a few scienists, who cares how much energy was contained?

It'd involve templates. You'd call it broken. What you don't realize is that martials need things like templates and dips to match casters, who are powerful, but not broken

I advocated 3.5 fighters every chance I got. I can do some pretty sick things with them - without templates or dips. (cheese, sure, but no dip)

Why would you need templates and dips? It was not you who said once there's variance in a scale, it's useless.

I could judge... after all I believe both of you have considered me more or less reasonable...

Agreed.

however, judge the build toward 'level 10', not the fact he'll face a CR20. As otherwise:
- lvl 10 vs CRX
---> (optimized) build that has 50ish percent to beat a CRX
- see, lvl 10s can beat CRX

as pun pun is lvl 6, I'm aware of that lvl 10s can beat CRX


So, I'll be waiting for Grog ECL10...

[Bridgar]

Yes it is. IRL we use scales with very big margins of error.

Take the Richter scale vs Mercalli scale.

Richter: a single number to quantify the energy contained in an earthquake.
Mercalli: The scale quantifies the effects of an earthquake on the Earth's surface, humans, objects of nature, and man-made structures on a scale from I (not felt) to XII (total destruction)

Nearly the whole world uses Richter.
Yet in case of an earthquake, except for a few scienists, who cares how much energy was contained?

Yes, and the scientists who use an arbitrarily quantified Mercalli Scale are laughed at. If it's not repeatable, it's not science. I can guarantee that the same earthquake can be viewed as less destructive and given a different Mercalli number, thus making the test not repeatable.

This was a great example! The Mercalli Scale is a useless scale, as it means nothing. The recent Tohocu earthquake got a shocking 9.0 on the Richter Scale an only an IX on the Mercalli Scale. 18,500 people died in that earthquake. The Christchurch earthquake got a 6.3 on the Richter Scale and an X on the Mercalli Scale. 181 people died in that earthquake. Obviously, the scale can't even gauge that which it's meant to gauge, human effect.

The Mercalli scale is just like the CR system! You're brilliant, qube! You've made the perfect analogy. Both are useless systems of attempting to quantify something that is subject to speculation. Both also have a counterpart that attempt to infer the same thing through a quantification of the cause for that effect. In the case of earthquakes, the effect is damage and the cause is the level of energy in an earthquake. In Dnd, the effect is the effect of a monster on a party and the cause is power level. Mercalli is to Richter as CR is to ECL.

I advocated 3.5 fighters every chance I got. I can do some pretty sick things with them - without templates or dips. (cheese, sure, but no dip)

I could use feats, if the worthwhile martial feats didn't have BAB requirements slapped onto them. You need at least level 15 to have a worthwhile martial battlefield controller (ToB aside).

Why would you need templates and dips? It was not you who said once there's variance in a scale, it's useless.

What scale are you referring to?

Agreed.

however, judge the build toward 'level 10', not the fact he'll face a CR20. As otherwise:
- lvl 10 vs CRX
---> (optimized) build that has 50ish percent to beat a CRX
- see, lvl 10s can beat CRX

as pun pun is lvl 6, I'm aware of that lvl 10s can beat CRX


So, I'll be waiting for Grog ECL10...

Grog ECL 10 would not be a good example. Grog has a low slope linear power advancement. For level 10, I'd either try a Chain Tripper (high slope linear power advancement) or a Caster (quadratic power advancement).

[qube]

btw, what I just found: nightwalkers cast at CL21.
... must be a typo

[Bridgar]

btw, what I just found: nightwalkers cast at CL21.
... must be a typo

Nightcrawlers cast at level 25. I submit the point. Increasing Balor to CR 21 may raise his CL to 21. The party still has numerous methods to deal with it; as, they're a level 20 party.

[qube]

Nightcrawlers cast at level 25. I submit the point. Increasing Balor to CR 21 may raise his CL to 21. The party still has numerous methods to deal with it; as, they're a level 20 party.

I never desputed that. To almost any combo there's a countercombo. However, there's a good chance they don't have those on when combat opens. And the moment the augmented balor starts his blasphemy combo, Its all over...

[drack]

I advocated 3.5 fighters every chance I got. I can do some pretty sick things with them - without templates or dips. (cheese, sure, but no dip)

Yup, bridgar will likely have a chance depending... I'm gonna be measuring him up to some level 10s that I have made in the past which may stand the faintest chance here. Items that just kill you or deal infinite damage will not be allowed, the following is the list of monsters which will privately be rolled from.

Spoiler

Show

1. balor
2. pit fiend
3. dragon: black wyrm
4. dragon: red old
5. dragon: brass ancient
6. dragon: bronze, very old
7. dragon: copper, very old
8. dragon: silver, old
9. tarrasque
10. gray linnorm
11. Megapede
12. Orcwort
13. Ancient Night Twist
14. vampire troll hunter

Also lets roll us a random climate:
1 dessert
2 forest
3 mountain
4 cave
5 city
6 tundra
7 planes
8 on a boat
9 another plane
10 marsh
11 hill
something I haven't thought to include
(1d11)[1]
Edit: it is settled, you will fight on a giant sand swept cheesecake

[Bridgar]

Whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah. This doesn't mean anything unless I win. I didn't say that any level 10 could beat all CR 20s. I said that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, illustrating the failures of the CR system. It only takes a few failures of the system for it to tumble to the ground.

Am I limited to martial? That sounds like work...

Qube, respond to post #67, please.

[drack]

Whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah, whoah. This doesn't mean anything unless I win.

than be sure to do so if made well and played well you should have a shot, using the terrain alone should guarantee a well built character victory without excess cheese.

Neither party is allowed to rig the battlefield as that would grant 'east win' to that person, you start a good 300' away and roll initiative to determine who goes first.

[Bridgar]

I should get to pick what I fight, though. Some of those are somewhat balanced. Some of those are too powerful. Then, there are those which are weak. Can I fight a dragon? I elect to fight a dragon!

[drack]

your chances are better to fight a dragon than anythng else, but you have <50-50 odds of fighting one (6/14), the rolling in private is to prevent your metagaming as quib thinks it'll grant you an unfair advantage and I somewhat agree, but out of curiosity which are you considering overpowered? (all are from MMI-MMIII)

[Bridgar]

your chances are better to fight a dragon than anythng else, but you have <50-50 odds of fighting one (6/14), the rolling in private is to prevent your metagaming as quib thinks it'll grant you an unfair advantage and I somewhat agree, but out of curiosity which are you considering overpowered? (all are from MMI-MMIII)

It actually is 50-50. You forgot Gray Linnorm, which is a dragon.

If you have immunity to Paralysis and your Dex hits 0, you're still paralyzed, correct?

To a level 10, most of them would be rather powerful. The exceptions being the Dragons (Linnorm included), the Night Twist, and the Orcwort. Depending on how you make the Vampire Troll Hunter, he'll probably be the most powerful out of all of them, seeing as how he'll have class levels.

A Maximized and Empowered Wand of Ray of Clumsiness kills most of the things on this list in one shot.

The Tarrasque can't actually be killed without several wishes, so I think I'd have most trouble with that one...

Now, you're saying that a lone level 10 can take down a CR 20? That's Party level 2.5 vs EL 20. Why not a party of level 10s against a CR 20 (PL 10 vs EL 20)? Or a Level 20 against a CR 20(PL 5 vs EL 20)?

[drack]

It actually is 50-50. You forgot Gray Linnorm, which is a dragon. Technically, I tend to think of it as more of a snake, but granted

If you have immunity to Paralysis and your Dex hits 0, you're still paralyzed, correct? I believe so

To a level 10, most of them would be rather powerful. The exceptions being the Dragons (Linnorm included), the Night Twist, and the Orcwort. Depending on how you make the Vampire Troll Hunter, he'll probably be the most powerful out of all of them, seeing as how he'll have class levels.Troll hunter looses regen when it becomes vampire (no con=no regen), it's up there for silliness, and likely would be the weakest, megaworm is mostly just big, demon/devil/nightwalker could be used well and win, dragons are a cross between the two categories in many ways, linnorm, octawort and night twist should be easier, but that's just how I see it, a CR20 encounter fluctuates sure, but they'd all pose a decent challenge. In my mind it's key to recall that CR gives a range of party levels somewhere within which it's a good challenge, but that's just me.

A Maximized and Empowered Wand of Ray of Clumsiness kills most of the things on this list in one shot. Don't you use the min CL for wands? in which case it couldn't touch any with SR...

The Tarrasque can't actually be killed without several wishes, so I think I'd have most trouble with that one... true

Now, you're saying that a lone level 10 can take down a CR 20? That's Party level 2.5 vs EL 20. Why not a party of level 10s against a CR 20 (PL 10 vs EL 20)? Or a Level 20 against a CR 20(PL 5 vs EL 20)? if it's level 20 V. CR 20 and you win it shows that the CR system works, a party is fine if qube agrees, and a level 10 can easily crush a party of level 3s, so you're doing it wrong

honestly CR is only supposed to work within range of 8 levels and prove a challenge though, so if you don't feel challenged by versing something CR=your level+8 than the CR system has broken down.

Bridgar, mind if I take your challenge of my balor versus your titan though? qube mind reffing?

[Bridgar]

honestly CR is only supposed to work within range of 8 levels and prove a challenge though, so if you don't feel challenged by versing something CR=your level+8 than the CR system has broken down.

Bridgar, mind if I take your challenge of my balor versus your titan though? qube mind reffing?

It couldn't actually be a wand. It'd be too high of a level spell for wand. It'd be a staff. Unless you just made a wand of Ray of Clumsiness, then used Metamagic Spell Trigger, in which case, you just burn out the entire wand at once with Empower, Maximize, and a ton of Heightens, defeating SR and saves.

Drack, you're thinking of your adaptation of CR, where CR is a challenge for one person of that level. The true CR system is CR is a challenge for an entire party of that level. I put the ELs and Party Levels in there to illustrate my point. According to the CR system, a Party Level 5 should never defeat a level 20 encounter. Yet, it's quite simple for a level 20 to solo a CR 20.

We'd have to set up some ground rules for that battle, drack. If you get to summon, I get to gate with the exception that it caps at CR 21 and anything gated in cannot further gate. It'll basically be summoning. Titan will win every time, you'll see.

[drack]

No, my interpretation is still for parties, but parties can range from one member to maybe as many as 10+cohorts/possible followers, and I'm serious when I say a level 20 isn't party level 5, it scales such that it'd be more like party level 17 or 18. though I could certainly be convince by your 4 level 5s beating my level 20... otherwise no. I'll admit that your and qube's battle is silly, and more of an intellectual challenge than a proof of anything, but if the CR system truly is so broken than you can prepare for a scope of enemies, and with out using 'broken' items (or if not without using them, than giving them to the opposing side as well) you should be able to defeat more powerful foes Or have I been entirely misunderstanding your argument this whole while and what you were really saying is that a CR monster being a challenge that doesn't kill the party of the same level is a failure to the system?



fine, but gating you still need to negotiate with it for a few rounds mid-combat (I'm cool with not summoning, but I think it'd be funny to watch you try to have a respectful conversation with something while a balor is hacking at you after all Balors only need summons to allow them to single out an enemy and not be attacked themselves en mass by a party)

All the same how will we determan terrain? (I like using them to my advantage), must we both play as rashly as the DMG dictates we do or can we add still further tactics, is there any prep time, lets not bother with prep time, start out a good 500' away to allow if either wishes to use ranged things (I don't, but maybe you do?), are you going good or evil titan, and just to clarify I don't think this will really prove anything, but hay why not for fun just to show what the two can do after all from a straight on standpoint titan does more damage/ect, has more spells and the like, but lacks some on the useful things like constant true seeing which help allot in terms of overall usefulness especially combined with 100' telepathy allowing you to see all and relay it which is rather useful to a commander.

[Bridgar]

No, my interpretation is still for parties, but parties can range from one member to maybe as many as 10+cohorts/possible followers, and I'm serious when I say a level 20 isn't party level 5, it scales such that it'd be more like party level 17 or 18. though I could certainly be convince by your 4 level 5s beating my level 20... otherwise no. I'll admit that your and qube's battle is silly, and more of an intellectual challenge than a proof of anything, but if the CR system truly is so broken than you can prepare for a scope of enemies, and with out using 'broken' items (or if not without using them, than giving them to the opposing side as well) you should be able to defeat more powerful foes Or have I been entirely misunderstanding your argument this whole while and what you were really saying is that a CR monster being a challenge that doesn't kill the party of the same level is a failure to the system?

As per DMG, a level 20 constitutes a level 5 party. This is part of the CR/EL system. Now do you see why I'm so vehemently opposed to it?

fine, but gating you still need to negotiate with it for a few rounds mid-combat (I'm cool with not summoning, but I think it'd be funny to watch you try to have a respectful conversation with something while a balor is hacking at you after all Balors only need summons to allow them to single out an enemy and not be attacked themselves en mass by a party)

Nope. Immediate requests such as fighting a battle require no negotiations or repayment.

All the same how will we determan terrain? (I like using them to my advantage), must we both play as rashly as the DMG dictates we do or can we add still further tactics, is there any prep time, lets not bother with prep time, start out a good 500' away to allow if either wishes to use ranged things (I don't, but maybe you do?), are you going good or evil titan, and just to clarify I don't think this will really prove anything, but hay why not for fun just to show what the two can do after all from a straight on standpoint titan does more damage/ect, has more spells and the like, but lacks some on the useful things like constant true seeing which help allot in terms of overall usefulness especially combined with 100' telepathy allowing you to see all and relay it which is rather useful to a commander.

The most balanced way to deal with terrain is to simply have none at all. That way, neither player can exploit it.

I think that 500' sounds good.

Yeah, he has some okay passive abilities, they just don't apply whatsoever to a battle situation.

[qube]

sry, missed the post

This was a great example! The Mercalli Scale is a useless scale, as it means nothing. The recent Tohocu earthquake got a shocking 9.0 on the Richter Scale an only an IX on the Mercalli Scale. 18,500 people died in that earthquake. The Christchurch earthquake got a 6.3 on the Richter Scale and an X on the Mercalli Scale. 181 people died in that earthquake. Obviously, the scale can't even gauge that which it's meant to gauge, human effect

you kinda forget to mention that the Christchurch earthquake is the third-costliest earthquake (nominally) worldwide. - which Mercalli takes in account.

The Mercalli scale is just like the CR system! You're brilliant, qube! You've made the perfect analogy. Both are useless systems of attempting to quantify something that is subject to speculation. Both also have a counterpart that attempt to infer the same thing through a quantification of the cause for that effect. In the case of earthquakes, the effect is damage and the cause is the level of energy in an earthquake. In Dnd, the effect is the effect of a monster on a party and the cause is power level. Mercalli is to Richter as CR is to ECL.

I would actually say like his:
CR is Richter (virtual number representing difficulty),
Mercalli is encounter difficulty (the effect the thing as on the observers)

a 5.0 richter hitting a (poorly build/old/...) dam can kill miljions, costing trillions.(Mercali XII) - a high level party with no range vs Juvenile Arrowhawk.
a 9.0 richter on the southpole could kill zero, costing zero. (Mercali II) - the high CR monster fumbles his save vs massive damage

You're brilliant, qube!

I have my moments.

I could use feats, if the worthwhile martial feats didn't have BAB requirements slapped onto them. You need at least level 15 to have a worthwhile martial battlefield controller (ToB aside).

lower level chain trippers aren't doing a bad job either. (never even read ToB)

I didn't say that any level 10 could beat all CR 20s. I said that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, illustrating the failures of the CR system.

alevel 1 can beat allCR 20s. Globally, Cross Planar, At once. As a swift - of which he has infinite per turn.

As illustrated, that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, doesn't illustrate the failures of the CR system at all. It could simply illustrate that those level 10s are broken.

Look, powerwise, the ONLY scale we get from WotC is this "rule of thumb: equal CR = a moderate challenge for an average party".
This obviously means that if you break this rule frequently, according to the rules WotC gave us, you are too powerful.

Bridgar, mind if I take your challenge of my balor versus your titan though? qube mind reffing?

ok. no problem.

500'? sounds good? 500 it is

[qube]

lets see about terrain (1d11)[5]

oooooh a city.


Good vs evil duke it out in the city of Noirty. In the apocaliptic chaos, A good caster sacrifices his life to open a portal - ENTER TITAN. A ritualist on the other side opens a portal - ENTER PITFIEND - who immediately eats the ritualist for lunch.

this is the set-up:
empty plane - 200 ft buildings - Pit fiend - 50ft buildings - 100 ft market stands - 200 ft clearing- 100 ft market stands - 50ft buildings - Titan - 200 ft buildings - empty plane

all except empty plane: plenty of debree and corpses all around.
buildings: land speed/2. while grounded, get cover vs all creatures >50ft away (no cover against creatures flying 50ft or higher).
As move action you can move behind a structure (hardness 5, 55hp) blocking line of sight vs a creature >50ft away (only cover if that creature is flying 50ft or higher).
market stands (if you're medium): count as buildings
market stands (if you're large)land speed/2.
As move action you can move behind a structure (hardness 5, 20hp) grating cover vs a creature >50ft away (nothing if the creature is flying 50ft or higher).
market stands (if you're bigger then large)fastest of land speed/2 or -20ft
prone you get cover vs a creature >50ft away (nothing if the creature is flying 50ft or higher).


neither is supprized

[Bridgar]

sry, missed the post
you kinda forget to mention that the Christchurch earthquake is the third-costliest earthquake (nominally) worldwide. - which Mercalli takes in account.


I would actually say like his:
CR is Richter (virtual number representing difficulty),
Mercalli is encounter difficulty (the effect the thing as on the observers)

a 5.0 richter hitting a (poorly build/old/...) dam can kill miljions, costing trillions.(Mercali XII) - a high level party with no range vs Juvenile Arrowhawk.
a 9.0 richter on the southpole could kill zero, costing zero. (Mercali II) - the high CR monster fumbles his save vs massive damage

See below. This analogy has gotten mangled

lower level chain trippers aren't doing a bad job either. (never even read ToB)

Eh. They're rather underwhelming when you consider

1. anything that can fly
2. anything that is ranged
3. anything with freedom of movement

They're really only good once they get their higher level feats like Robilar's Gambit and Defensive Sweep.

alevel 1 can beat allCR 20s. Globally, Cross Planar, At once. As a swift - of which he has infinite per turn.

As illustrated, that some level 10s could beat some CR 20s, doesn't illustrate the failures of the CR system at all. It could simply illustrate that those level 10s are broken.

See below. You're quick to call things broken because you think the CR system is the one true judge of power.

Look, powerwise, the ONLY scale we get from WotC is this "rule of thumb: equal CR = a moderate challenge for an average party".
This obviously means that if you break this rule frequently, according to the rules WotC gave us, you are too powerful.

Okay, good. We've finally gotten down to why you cling to it so dearly. It's the only system that's been published, that means it has to be right. Well, as you've seen with other things they've published, they can be wrong. If you look at 4e, their attempt to balance the game, they got rid of CR and made everything have cookie-cutter numbers because 3.5 monsters were too variable in power level. They practically admitted to their mistake. What you, as a DM, are responsible for doing, is recognizing the variable power levels and conforming to them. CR can be a guideline at times, but you're a big boy and have to think for yourself. Things aren't broken simply because they outclass CR. This was what I was trying to get at from the start; power in characters shouldn't be feared. Many players (myself, drack, and halna included) enjoy playing powerful characters. The elites of the GitP community (Cadian 9th, Cardea, Grimm Blackleaf, The Demented One, etc) all enjoy playing high power and can all judge relative power levels. If you wish to join them and gain respect as both a DM and a player, you have to ditch the CR system. It's a concrete number applied to a vastly varying measurement. It just doesn't work.

lets see about terrain [roll0]

I don't think we're going with terrain on this one...

[drack]

As per DMG, a level 20 constitutes a level 5 party. This is part of the CR/EL system. Now do you see why I'm so vehemently opposed to it? Nope, the problem lies in you dividing your level by 4, do it by relative xp of an encounter with the PCs and you'll have more luck



Nope. Immediate requests such as fighting a battle require no negotiations or repayment. Oh yeah but than it's still not showing our skills, it would instead show that there are bigger things everywhere



The most balanced way to deal with terrain is to simply have none at all. That way, neither player can exploit it. so we stand on nothingness... so 3D map that allows you to use a ground, burrow, fly, swim, ect speed to move through?

I think that 500' sounds good.

Yeah, he has some okay passive abilities, they just don't apply whatsoever to a battle situation. they do to a negligible extent, you could hypothetically have riddled the field with illusions beforehand so that I couldn't see you had I not true seeing, telepathy is useless, immunity to electricity is useful. In my opinion the two aren't too unevenly matched, titan's slightly better, and Balor works better with others, but they are roughly similar strength

alevel 1 can beat allCR 20s. Globally, Cross Planar, At once. As a swift - of which he has infinite per turn.

actually only 1 swift/turn

Okay, good. We've finally gotten down to why you cling to it so dearly. It's the only system that's been published, that means it has to be right. Well, as you've seen with other things they've published, they can be wrong. If you look at 4e, their attempt to balance the game, they got rid of CR and made everything have cookie-cutter numbers because 3.5 monsters were too variable in power level. They practically admitted to their mistake. What you, as a DM, are responsible for doing, is recognizing the variable power levels and conforming to them. CR can be a guideline at times, but you're a big boy and have to think for yourself. Things aren't broken simply because they outclass CR. This was what I was trying to get at from the start; power in characters shouldn't be feared. Many players (myself, drack, and halna included) enjoy playing powerful characters. The elites of the GitP community (Cadian 9th, Cardea, Grimm Blackleaf, The Demented One, etc) all enjoy playing high power and can all judge relative power levels. If you wish to join them and gain respect as both a DM and a player, you have to ditch the CR system. It's a concrete number applied to a vastly varying measurement. It just doesn't work.

yes and no, it works well enough

yeaaah, some attribute liking higher power level to getting MMII before MMI, I got it years before

Not so much ditch it as acknowledge it's flaws.

[qube]

Many players (myself, drack, and halna included) enjoy playing powerful characters.

and you've reached my point.
CR doesn't work for you because you like powerfull characters. Nothing wrong with that - until you start assuming you'res is the only right way to play and put the fault of inbalance with the CR system.

See, in my group we about keep to the powerlevel wotc perscribed, and CR works just fine.

or (slightly more catchy) you're stuck with the mess you created yourself

I don't think we're going with terrain on this one...

but Drack said I like using them to my advantage

[Bridgar]

As per DMG, a level 20 constitutes a level 5 party. This is part of the CR/EL system. Now do you see why I'm so vehemently opposed to it? Nope, the problem lies in you dividing your level by 4, do it by relative xp of an encounter with the PCs and you'll have more luck

[REDACTED]

Nope. Immediate requests such as fighting a battle require no negotiations or repayment. Oh yeah but than it's still not showing our skills, it would instead show that there are bigger things everywhere

No summoning, then?

The most balanced way to deal with terrain is to simply have none at all. That way, neither player can exploit it. so we stand on nothingness... so 3D map that allows you to use a ground, burrow, fly, swim, ect speed to move through?

Sounds good to me.

Yeah, he has some okay passive abilities, they just don't apply whatsoever to a battle situation. they do to a negligible extent, you could hypothetically have riddled the field with illusions beforehand so that I couldn't see you had I not true seeing, telepathy is useless, immunity to electricity is useful. In my opinion the two aren't too unevenly matched, titan's slightly better, and Balor works better with others, but they are roughly similar strength

Sounds right, yeah. If a titan gets followers too, it'll still win, though.

[qube]

The most balanced way to deal with terrain is to simply have none at all. That way, neither player can exploit it. so we stand on nothingness... so 3D map that allows you to use a ground, burrow, fly, swim, ect speed to move through?

ok then

[drack]

No summoning, then? I don't mind a ban on summoning, as I said I'd mostly only need it if there were more than one of you



Sounds good to me.



Sounds right, yeah. If a titan gets followers too, it'll still win, though. Hmm, debatable depending on a few things (like what followers and how it uses them), titans would still be stronger, but they wouldn't be as good at working with their new found allies

I'm fine either way terrain-wise, true I like using it, but even a blank 3D slate can be used...

[Bridgar]

Alright, no terrain.

Init:(1d20+1)[17]

[drack]

actually 500' gives spells an advantage... you still fine with it?

(1d20+11)[26]