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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    I'm going to be playing in a campaign soon, and after playing a level 2 Spellthief for a one-shot game, I found that I really like the flavor and idea of the class. But, I've heard that it's not as strong as it could be.

    We're starting at level 6, and this is what the party is made up of:

    Death Master(Dragon Compendium class, like the Dread Necromancer)
    d20 Rebirth Barbarian
    Truenamer
    Other player I don't know

    All sources are allowed. I played a Neraph Spellthief for the "charge enemy for free Sneak Attack" feature, though I'm willing to change my race. All I can really say for sure is that I'd like to at least take Spellthief up to 7th level for Absorb Spell(because I just think that sounds fun).

    Any advice on what to do with this character? I've already looked at Fax Celestis's guide on them, and while it has some nice ideas(I like the Good Karma/Absorb Spell combo), I'm still not sure what to build.
    Last edited by theonesin; 2011-10-27 at 08:52 PM.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Can you take the Trickster variant from Dragon. If yes, then please do!

    Thanks for playing a Neraph! I kept suggesting it during "Spellthief Week"

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Dragon Magazines are allowed, yes. I've heard the name of that variant, but which magazine is it in?

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Given Barbarian is homebrewed, the true namer has a fix attached right?

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Truenamer is NOT using any fix. It'd probably be allowed, but this guy wants to make it work anyway.

    And I did reeeeeeeeeeeead, and it's a really good guide. But, I'm still unsure what all to do with the character.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Advice: Try not to put TOO much effort into the character. An unmoded truenamer says the campaign isn't going to end well.
    Last edited by deuxhero; 2011-10-27 at 09:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Dragon #353, my friend!

    Remember, Master Spellthief is the most easily exploited feat in the game. You can stack into PRCs with their own list that have Double Caster Level, like sublime chord...or into Nar Demonbinder which stacks with a previous caster of your choice.

    Since you are starting at 6, I would recommend Trickster Spellthief 6. You cast like a bard but with spell stealing tricks instead of buffing.

    Alternatively, Trickster Spellthief 1/Wizard 5 with Practiced Spellcaster Spellthief and Master Spellthief would cast as caster level 10 for both spell sets. Use a UA variant caster for more fun. Or take Trickster Spellthief 2/Wizard 4 then go into Ultimate Magus.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Quote Originally Posted by hex0 View Post
    Or take Trickster Spellthief 2/Wizard 4 then go into Ultimate Magus.
    Like this?

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    I had a chance to look over the Trickster variant, and while it sounds tempting, the loss of trapfinding and sneaky/trap-related skills might hurt the party too much.

    Oh, and the Truenamer's player wanted me to mention he has a backup character of a duckbunny Green Star Adept. Yeah...

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    You really don't need trapfinding. DMs that actually use traps are rather rare, and the ones you come across in day-to-day dungeoneering can generally be bypassed or triggered safely.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    If you REALLY need it, ask the DM if you can get it as a feat (one Ranger ACF trades Track, which is obtainable as a feat, for it).

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Well, this campaign is going to be something of a series of modules, because someone in the group was curious about running a campaign like that. We have a houserule in some games where anyone can search for traps(don't know if this DM will use it), but it doesn't help with disabling them.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Just last week there were a few good threads about the spellthief, read those, if you havn't already.
    Also, I'll just leave:
    This, this, this, and this here. The last one's mostly to feel good about the ST. ;)

    This or this might also be relevant, depending on how you play the char. (Although a bit old by now)

    For my own notes about making a new ST, this is all I have: Remember Master Spellthief feat, and possibly dip into other arcane classes.
    Other than that, rogue it up (that is, make sure you can get as many sneak attacks as possible).
    Last edited by suhkkaet; 2011-10-28 at 12:28 AM.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    If you really want trapfinding, you can squeeze Temple Raider or Hoard Stealer as your sixth level (ugh).

    or take Shape Soulmeld (Thieves' Gloves) + Open Least Chakra

    Or be creative and max out your search and spot checks and summon monsters at a distance to blow up the traps for you. This gets better when you can take the Summon Elemental reserve feat.

    You don't have to disable traps sometimes. Ignoring and/or bypassing them still counts for 'beating' them. At least to experienced DMs.

    If you must play the non-trickster Spellthief, do it.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Quote Originally Posted by hex0 View Post
    If you really want trapfinding, you can squeeze Temple Raider or Hoard Stealer as your sixth level (ugh).

    or take Shape Soulmeld (Thieves' Gloves) + Open Least Chakra

    Or be creative and max out your search and spot checks and summon monsters at a distance to blow up the traps for you. This gets better when you can take the Summon Elemental reserve feat.

    You don't have to disable traps sometimes. Ignoring and/or bypassing them still counts for 'beating' them. At least to experienced DMs.

    If you must play the non-trickster Spellthief, do it.
    If it really comes down to it, the default trapfinder is the guy with the highest hit points/best defenses, which probably makes it the barbarian.
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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    If it really comes down to it, the default trapfinder is the guy with the highest hit points/best defenses, which probably makes it the barbarian.
    Summoned monsters are slightly more disposable.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    I have a couple questions about the Spellthief.

    First off, when I reach the point where I have say, 2d6 Sneak Attack, can I forgo all of it to steal 2 spells in one attack? The text wasn't really clear on how many spells I could steal in one turn.

    And my other question: Are the spells I steal limited to just arcane spells, or can I also steal divine ones?

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Also, if your DM is fond of them, the Psithief feat from Complete Scoundrel will let you steal powers as well.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    if you can take flaws, i suggest getting proficiency with the skip rock and war sling. two sneak attacks on two spellcasters per attack (depending on their location) is too good to pass up, especially if you are open to switching your race to halfling. you get +1 to your attacks, an additional +1 on thrown weapons and slings, and some nice skill bonuses.

    also, if i may further interest you in halfling, and you have a flexible DM, see if he will let you take the rogue substitution levels for improved sneak attack with thrown weapons/slings. its in RotW, and you get extra sneak attack die on thrown weapons and slings, but in return have less die on melee sneak attacks.
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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Hehehehehe.

    1. Get Hunter's Eye somehow. It gives 1d6 SA/3 CL, which should be absurdly high due to your Master Spellthief shenanananananagans (shenananananaganman!). Trade all your SA dice for spell stealing.

    2. Take all of an enemy's spells in one attack.
    3. ????
    4. Profit.

    Does this work?

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Quote Originally Posted by gallagher View Post
    if you can take flaws, i suggest getting proficiency with the skip rock and war sling. two sneak attacks on two spellcasters per attack (depending on their location) is too good to pass up, especially if you are open to switching your race to halfling. you get +1 to your attacks, an additional +1 on thrown weapons and slings, and some nice skill bonuses.

    also, if i may further interest you in halfling, and you have a flexible DM, see if he will let you take the rogue substitution levels for improved sneak attack with thrown weapons/slings. its in RotW, and you get extra sneak attack die on thrown weapons and slings, but in return have less die on melee sneak attacks.
    Go Strongheart Halfling and you don't even need flaws, though it makes it far tastier.

    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    Hehehehehe.

    1. Get Hunter's Eye somehow. It gives 1d6 SA/3 CL, which should be absurdly high due to your Master Spellthief shenanananananagans (shenananananaganman!). Trade all your SA dice for spell stealing.

    2. Take all of an enemy's spells in one attack.
    3. ????
    4. Profit.

    Does this work?
    Unseen Seer is the classic way, plus Arcane Thesis(Hunter's Eye). Master Spellthief only really gets going if you have slots for Practiced Spellcaster and enough levels between Spellthief and your other arcane to actually get the difference, which can be somewhat expensive.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    I decided to stick with Neraph as my race. I'm enjoying it, and it really bugs the DM when I seemingly get Sneak Attack all the time, which is hilarious(I know I don't, but it just seems that way).

    I'm still unsure of where to really take the Spellthief after level 7(for Absorb Spell). The DM says we'll probably end around level 10 or so, so I'm thinking of just going straight Spellthief.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Get Channel Charge (LEoF), then use your stolen spells to power the spells from a staff of your choice. That way, if the foes you face don't have spells you want to use, you can still put the stolen spells to work.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Quote Originally Posted by CactusAir View Post
    Get Channel Charge (LEoF), then use your stolen spells to power the spells from a staff of your choice. That way, if the foes you face don't have spells you want to use, you can still put the stolen spells to work.
    You can do that natively with Spellthief spells already, though. The spell also has to be on your spell list to use, so some UMDing may be required for full usage of said staff.
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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    You can do that natively with Spellthief spells already, though. The spell also has to be on your spell list to use, so some UMDing may be required for full usage of said staff.
    There are spell thieves that don't Max Umd?

    Channel Charge lets you buy a mostly drained staff of say, Limited Wish of a sorcerer who just retired from adventuring, and power it with 8th level spell you stole from enemies.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Also, don't write off the truenamer. Especially if he plans to go Divine Crusader later. One of the recent optimization challenges here on the forums was blown away by a Truenamer/DivineCrusader.

    If he ISN'T planning something like that, this is still a good as any guidline to building a Truenamer...http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=132

    Last edited by marcielle; 2011-11-04 at 05:05 PM.
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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Truenamers who can make their checks can buff up allied casters. This is not a negligible ability.

    The Metamagic Effect utterance alone makes truenamers potentially useful. Caster lens is just bonus.

    And if you take 20 levels, you get two awesome capstones. Free teleport to any ally who calls for aid, and Deny Passage.

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    Default Re: [DnD 3.5] Tips for making a Spellthief?

    Quote Originally Posted by CactusAir View Post
    There are spell thieves that don't Max Umd?

    Channel Charge lets you buy a mostly drained staff of say, Limited Wish of a sorcerer who just retired from adventuring, and power it with 8th level spell you stole from enemies.
    Just checked the feat, y'need to be able to cast 4th level spells first, which is quite a ways into Spellthief, IIRC. Getting a fast advance spellcasting class may be necessary to get it going.

    Also, good luck finding a specific partially charged anything, especially custom staff. If your DM isn't traumatized by Giacomo's use of partially charged wands, you might get away with that but...yeah, I don't see custom staves of limited wish just sitting around for sale, especially from retired adventurers wanting to keep such treasures for a rainy day. I'd personally expect there to be more Scepters of Limited Wish around and even then, I doubt you'll find one just sitting around your local Magic Mart/Red Wizard Enclave. Special Order only, don'tcha know?
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2011-11-07 at 12:30 PM.
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