What is the least optimizable PC class?

[sirpercival]

By that I don't mean "what is the worst class", because that's a matter of opinion (even commoners can be chicken-infested), I mean the PC class for which you are able to do the least class-specific optimizing?

[Diefje]

I'm leaning towards Sorceror. It's still solid because arcane full casting is so good, but you barely get any goodies from the class itself. 1 familiar, 7 feats, and int (tertiary stat) + 2 skillpoints...

Maybe it's just because they're doomed to live in the shadow of wizards.

[Flickerdart]

Sorcerer can be optimized quite thoroughly by spell selection and ACFs though. Ideally we would have a class that gets no features he can select, and no class-specific ACFs. Definitely something T5-6ish.

[Treblain]

I'd say soulknife.

[Xyk]

I'd say Warblade because it's good to start with but none of the maneuver options are much better than any others. I've never seen an incredible Warblade or a bad Warblade.

[Seerow]

Seconding soulknife.

[sirpercival]

Seconding soulknife.

I dunno about soulknife -- there's only one real PrC but it takes the class from non-playable to playable, so that's a pretty big boost. And it got a lot of Eberron support (though most of that sucked).

[Seerow]

I dunno about soulknife -- there's only one real PrC but it takes the class from non-playable to playable, so that's a pretty big boost. And it got a lot of Eberron support (though most of that sucked).

The one PRC takes it from terrible to on par with an optimized fighter, unless I'm mistaken (it's been a long time since I looked at the soulbow), and has basically no relevant support or customization options beyond that. And the core chasis is terrible in of itself, which should count for a lot.

[Mooncrow]

I know this is going to get a lot of flak, but it's actually fairly hard to optimize a druid in terms of feats and PrCs to take, etc. The core chassis is so strong that optimizing is more a choice of picking from the already-available options, not in anything that you can add to it.

[Amphetryon]

I find Lurk harder to optimize than Soulknife. Soulknife at least has a go-to option of sorts (Soulbow) and a couple of "filler" options. Lurk's PP progression and acquisition of powers is really tricky to compliment well with options.

[Big Fau]

Complete Warrior Samurai.

[Eldariel]

Knight is pretty high up there. Chassis that forces you to take it all the way to 20 for all the useful class features & lack of synergy with anything special. About the biggest thing it has going on for it is being full BAB with martial profs so you can do the basic Power Attack and Lockdown stuff with it (even one useful class feature for lockdown).

Then again, every full BAB class can be "optimized" by picking Shock Trooper & Leap Attack or Combat Reflexes+Thicket of Blades+Mage Slayer+Stand Still/Improved Trip so I guess all of those have a rather wide range of power levels for that reason alone.


Guess Soulknife is really pretty high up there but Soulbow exists to give it a clear bipolar good-bad nature.

I know this is going to get a lot of flak, but it's actually fairly hard to optimize a druid in terms of feats and PrCs to take, etc. The core chassis is so strong that optimizing is more a choice of picking from the already-available options, not in anything that you can add to it.

Eeeh. The core chassis is strong, sure, but you have your Planar Shepherd (it should really just be another Lightning Warrior) & stupid stuff like Venomfire, Fleshraker & co. that can be used to eke out significantly larger advantages from its class features, especially for trampling all over the auxillary functions of the class (which, I suppose, include everything).

[erikun]

Soulknife seems like a good choice, because it basically has one good prestige class if you want its class features to matter at all.

However, I will also mention Truenamer, because there is only one way to play it: 20 levels of Truenamer and optimize your Truespeak check. There are no prestige classes. You cannot reasonably gish, although Truenamer/Factotum might "work". There really isn't much else noteworthy with their abilities or skill list. The only major difference between one Truenamer and another is how high their Truespeak bonus is, which simply determines what they can do.

[graeylin]

Truenamer?

I have no idea really, never looked at the class, just heard so much... bad... about it.

[Mooncrow]

Eeeh. The core chassis is strong, sure, but you have your Planar Shepherd (it should really just be another Lightning Warrior) & stupid stuff like Venomfire, Fleshraker & co. that can be used to eke out significantly larger advantages from its class features, especially for trampling all over the auxillary functions of the class (which, I suppose, include everything).

Aside from Planar Shepard (which you have to admit almost never sees play in actual games) the rest of what you named is in the base chassis. You don't need special feats or anything to pick up a fleshraker or memorize Venomfire.

That's my only point though - there are very few character building options that make the druid significantly better. The real optimization lies almost entirely in choosing from the already-available options.

[Strormer]

Knight is pretty high up there. Chassis that forces you to take it all the way to 20 for all the useful class features & lack of synergy with anything special. About the biggest thing it has going on for it is being full BAB with martial profs so you can do the basic Power Attack and Lockdown stuff with it (even one useful class feature for lockdown).

I'm gonna second the Knight. I love the idea of the class, but there's not really much outside of the basics that you can do for it. I've never actually played a soulknife though, so I'm not sure.

[erikun]

Aside from Planar Shepard (which you have to admit almost never sees play in actual games) the rest of what you named is in the base chassis. You don't need special feats or anything to pick up a fleshraker or memorize Venomfire.

That's my only point though - there are very few character building options that make the druid significantly better. The real optimization lies almost entirely in choosing from the already-available options.

I would consider that optimizing, though. Choosing Sleep and Solid Fog over Magic Missile and Fireball is optimizing, even though they are choices available to every Wizard.

Optimization is becoming better at something, not necessarily becoming better at everything. Master of Many Forms improves Wildshape. Arcane Heirophant gives Wizard spellcasting as well. There are options to optimize summons and the animal companion. There is even getting the Fochlucan Lyrist to work. All are valid optimization routes a Druid can take, mainly because of the large number of good abilities the base Druid has access to.

[Flickerdart]

Truenamer?

I have no idea really, never looked at the class, just heard so much... bad... about it.

It's bad, but doesn't really fit under the criteria here, because it can be optimized all the way up to decent.

[Eldariel]

Aside from Planar Shepard (which you have to admit almost never sees play in actual games) the rest of what you named is in the base chassis. You don't need special feats or anything to pick up a fleshraker or memorize Venomfire.

That's my only point though - there are very few character building options that make the druid significantly better. The real optimization lies almost entirely in choosing from the already-available options.

Well, feats are pretty big. Natural Spell is the obvious one but then there's Assume Supernatural Ability, Aberration Wildshape (especially hilarious combined with the former), Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Greenbound Summoning just to name a few. Druids have a significant bunch of semi-exclusive feats that range from nuts to what-the-****-was-the-writer-drinking-while-thinking-this-****-up nuts.

[Curmudgeon]

Knight, I think. The code of conduct and inability to gain anything from flanking make it hard to add anything to the class that you couldn't also do with a Fighter.

[deuxhero]

Some obscure Dragon class.

[BlackestOfMages]

Well, feats are pretty big. Natural Spell is the obvious one but then there's Assume Supernatural Ability, Aberration Wildshape (especially hilarious combined with the former), Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Greenbound Summoning just to name a few. Druids have a significant bunch of semi-exclusive feats that range from nuts to what-the-****-was-the-writer-drinking-while-thinking-this-****-up nuts.

the problem there lies in the fact wizards 'playtesters' didn't use wildshape for anything other than scouting, and thus never realised how potent it was (whcih requires concussion, I'll admit...) so they made it stronger and thus it is rediculously easy to overoptimize with all the godly wilshape boosts out there, and the PrC access

I'd say samurai because you have no choice in it's build, and being able to take some things other people do better is not optimising it's just removing your crapness...

[erikun]

It's bad, but doesn't really fit under the criteria here, because it can be optimized all the way up to decent.

I'm not too sure about that; saying that the Truenamer doesn't count because you can optimize Truespeak to make them relevant would be like saying the Soulknife doesn't count because you can optimize Use Magic Device and allow they to cast spells.

The sad part is that, even fully optimized, it doesn't come out that great. A Samurai with can manipulate the battlefield with an optimized Intimidate, can end encounters with an optimized Diplomancy, and can do relevant damage with an optimized Iaijutsu Strike. A Truenamer can simply participate with an optimized Truespeak, and just can't do anything otherwise.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

By that I don't mean "what is the worst class", because that's a matter of opinion (even commoners can be chicken-infested), I mean the PC class for which you are able to do the least class-specific optimizing?

What are we defining as "class-specific optimizing?" Or, rather, what would be non "class-specific" optimization? Because I can't think of any class which doesn't have a schtick that can be optimized - even the Fighter (with proper ACFs) and Complete Warrior Samurai can do something beyond what is open to everyone, namely "I hit it."

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Monks have got to be up there, not because they suck but because of why they suck: none of their tricks work together, and there's no way to improve the majority of them.

[Mooncrow]

Monks have got to be up there, not because they suck but because of why they suck: none of their tricks work together, and there's no way to improve the majority of them.

Except you can go Sacred Fist or something similar and end up doing very well.

[Flickerdart]

Monks have got to be up there, not because they suck but because of why they suck: none of their tricks work together, and there's no way to improve the majority of them.

Monks have a fair bit of options though - the various fighting styles give them a good selection of bonus feats, there are a number of Monk-only PrCs of various usefulness, and then Tashalatora makes Monk levels at least useful when all else fails. They might not have a lot of great options, but they have many class-specific ones.

[Mooncrow]

Well, feats are pretty big. Natural Spell is the obvious one but then there's Assume Supernatural Ability, Aberration Wildshape (especially hilarious combined with the former), Rashemi Elemental Summoning and Greenbound Summoning just to name a few. Druids have a significant bunch of semi-exclusive feats that range from nuts to what-the-****-was-the-writer-drinking-while-thinking-this-****-up nuts.

Assume Supernatural Ability, yeah. That's another that I forget about since it's rarely allowed. The rest, eh, they're strong, but they still don't increase the relative power of the class much.

Most classes' power level depends on one strong feature that you can either improve on or add to with the right feats and PrCs. The druid's power depends on three separate class abilities, and to really improve one ends up costing power from one or both of the other two. So the opportunity cost of most PrCs and ACFs end up not being worth it. For example, the Shifter 1st level druid ACF, trades your animal companion for an amazing amount of summoning power and personal buffs - and yet, when stacked up against a baseline druid, ends up behind.

So, that's what I mean when I talk about the druid being hard to optimize. There really isn't any other class that you can't literally double the effectiveness, or more, even without resorting to cheese. Though the already mentioned Soul Knife, Lurk and Truenamer are considerably harder to work with.

Even the other Tier 1 classes can be optimized to a much larger degree - compare the druid's options to the power boost that a cleric gets from DMM, or adding Incantatrix, or Anima Mage to Wizard. They can all advance their core strength without giving up a whole lot from their other class features.

[Eldariel]

Even the other Tier 1 classes can be optimized to a much larger degree - compare the druid's options to the power boost that a cleric gets from DMM, or adding Incantatrix, or Anima Mage to Wizard. They can all advance their core strength without giving up a whole lot from their other class features.

Couldn't you apply the same "rarely allowed" clause here too?

[Gorgondantess]

I'm going to say warblade here. It is simply a solid class in its own right, and there is little you can do to make it better; there are a lot of rewards for multi classing and PrCing, but it also works great on its own: the capstone alone is pretty good reason to go Warblade 20, and all the maneuvers are so bottom line decent that the only way you can really seriously mess up the class is to never use them.