ZOMBIES! Curse or Infection?

[Haruki-kun]

I kinda like cursed/magic/Living dead-type zombies. The Zombie virus is OK, but I'm starting to feel like it's starting to become "expected", whereas it was originally just a new twist to the whole zombie thing.

I remember when I watched Zombieland at the beginning the main character just says "When the virus hit..." or something like that. It's a virus. People already knew it would be a virus. There's no need to explain that it's a virus anymore. At this point making it not a virus might be the new twist to the whole thing...

[Ravens_cry]

While an infection is most likely to produce a transferable zombie like state, I have come to prefer a third option: we don't know. It's not magic per se in the sense of a spell, but it's magic in the sense it doesn't make any sense. Zombies don't make any sense, they make Thermodynamics cry, they make Biology curl up in a foetal position, they make Mechanical Engineering slam its head through a wall.
Any attempt at a rational explanation is going to run into inconsistencies.
So . . .don't.
After all, the unknown is much scarier.
Is it a curse?
Is it a disease?
Is Hell full?
Is it Armageddon?
The characters can speculate, but in the end, no one knows.
Maybe someday a full scientific team can get to work on figuring this out, but for now survival is a bit more important.

[Carry2]

That bit's always confused me (I haven't seen the film). If they're infected with super-rabies and have reached the later stages of the disease with hyper-aggression, then they'd have trouble swallowing and hence drinking.

Well, I didn't mean in the literal sense of actual rabies, but some kind of rage-inducing pathogen.

Of course, it still fails the essential question of why the zombies don't eat one another, or at least why it's not only the people who get infected and get away who are turned, anyone they actually catch is just stripped to the bone.

That's a good point, actually. If the virus were 'smart' enough to program it's victims to recognise (and not eat) other hosts- using chemical signals or wotnot- you'd presume it'd be smart enough to try infecting people without killing them. (Or, for that matter, mutate into a less lethal/dormant form, which is the main regulating factor against virulent disease. On the other hand, if the zombies have some kind of crude metabolic pathway in place, they might still need to eat...)

[Eldan]

The characters can speculate, but in the end, no one knows.
Maybe someday a full scientific team can get to work on figuring this out, but for now survival is a bit more important.

I would very much like that. I like stories with inaccurate science, but then I'd like them to be either gloriously inaccurate (i.e. some Doctor Who stories), or inaccurate in a way that acknowledges that they put some thought into it nevertheless.

[missmvicious]

Well both sides are making good points, some people are making points with no clear choice also. But its looking like the infection zombies are in the lead, (its probably their extra speed)

In my story I am working on a combination of both types. A magic base that spreads. :)

[Ravens_cry]

I would very much like that. I like stories with inaccurate science, but then I'd like them to be either gloriously inaccurate (i.e. some Doctor Who stories), or inaccurate in a way that acknowledges that they put some thought into it nevertheless.

I had an idea for a story for after after the end. Civilisations has returned in small spots and life within these areas is fairly good, but most areas are still pretty dangerous. A group of soldiers is escorting a team of scientists from a conclave out into the wild to try and investigate the phenomena. The major conflict would be the scientists need to know and study verses the soldiers trying to keep themselves and the scientists alive, the scientists theoretical knowledge verses the experience of the soldiers.

[enderlord99]

In my story I am working on a combination of both types. A magic base that spreads. :)

Maybe you could have a curse separately from a virus within the same story, with both having alarmingly similar results, and with zombies who are both cursed and infected being stronger than ones who are just one or the other.

Actually, I'm going to write a story like that...

[dehro]

Maybe you could have a curse separately from a virus within the same story, with both having alarmingly similar results, and with zombies who are both cursed and infected being stronger than ones who are just one or the other.

Actually, I'm going to write a story like that...

or go in the other direction..have a virus that is bad in it's own right, made stronger and turned into a weapon of mass zombification by a curse placed on the virus, it's creator or both.

[turkishproverb]

Again, why do you assume the world must be a dualistic balance of good and evil? That's completely unnecessary. Look at the Cthulhu Mythos for an enduring fictional setting where there are plenty of bad guys and no good guys to counterbalance them.

those aren't bad guys. They're neutral guys. Just horrifyingly neutral guys.

[Traab]

Ive always liked the Constantine version of the world to explain things. There are demonic and angelic forces at work, both sides make their own moves, neither side is omnipotent, so plots get snuck by their opposite faction.

Anyways, as far as zombies go, Night of the living dead style zombies only work small scale and short term. I think the real danger only lasted about a single night or so in that farmhouse right? At the end of the movie, didnt the general population basically round up the undead, burn em down, and wipe them out? 28 days later is the scary disease zombie movie, as you need fast zombies to have any real world wide threat. I honestly havent seen many of the curse style zombie movies, so I cant really judge them. I will admit that most of my books that have zombies tend to go the magic route. But then you are dealing with totally different setups.

For instance, the magic zombies tend to be tougher, either naturally, or because the evil necro who raised it is also casting spells to strengthen it. Its almost never a vast swarm of zombies killing everything. In the magic settings it seems like animated skeletons are the most common swarm undead troops.

Take the book Canticle. Its a forgotten realms book, but the basic gist is, an evil priest/sorcerer/necromancer/god only knows, has setup a base in the catacombs directly underneath one of the holiest sites in the world. He creates undead servants, everything from a mummy, to a zombie, to skeletons to ghouls. But he only made ONE zombie. He buffed it incredibly, but still, his swarm troops were the skeletons in the catacombs, his heavy hitter was the mummy. He made the zombie resistant to fire, enhanced its strength, and I think gave it some enchanted armor or something. I dunno if he only made one zombie due to lack of freshly dead bodies, or if there was another reason, but there was no zombie swarm. However, that zombie was one bad dude in a fight.

[enderlord99]

or go in the other direction..have a virus that is bad in it's own right, made stronger and turned into a weapon of mass zombification by a curse placed on the virus, it's creator or both.

How is that "the other direction?" I just said "there's both a virus and a curse."

[Coidzor]

I had an idea for a story for after after the end. Civilisations has returned in small spots and life within these areas is fairly good, but most areas are still pretty dangerous. A group of soldiers is escorting a team of scientists from a conclave out into the wild to try and investigate the phenomena. The major conflict would be the scientists need to know and study verses the soldiers trying to keep themselves and the scientists alive, the scientists theoretical knowledge verses the experience of the soldiers.

...Then how did the scientists survive in the first place if they're that suicidal in the search of "knowledge?"

[dehro]

How is that "the other direction?" I just said "there's both a virus and a curse."

I'm not quite sure...in fact I have no idea what I thought you had written when I wrote what I've written...

[enderlord99]

I'm not quite sure...in fact I have no idea what I thought you had written when I wrote what I've written...

Maybe you quoted my post when trying to quote the one I was responding to. Not sure.

[Ravens_cry]

...Then how did the scientists survive in the first place if they're that suicidal in the search of "knowledge?"

2nd generation in the conclave. Remember, this is after after the end.

[Coidzor]

2nd generation in the conclave. Remember, this is after after the end.

...Scientists that quickly?

...People raising their kids to be sheltered and dumb, knowing that they may have to contend with zombies in an active sense?

Weird.

[Ravens_cry]

...Scientists that quickly?

...People raising their kids to be sheltered and dumb, knowing that they may have to contend with zombies in an active sense?

Weird.

A thirst for knowledge doesn't mean your dumb, but if from of the better off areas and or a particularly well off conclave, I see it being possible. There is a zombie webcomic called, appropriately enough, The Zombie Hunters. The cultural level at home base is about what I am thinking here.

[Knight9910]

Without going into the fact that calling scientists dumb is like calling the military pacificist...

How is a scientist not something worth having in a post-apocalypse scenario? I mean, I guess I could see the argument that certain kinds of science wouldn't be that useful; for example, if you're fighting zombies every day then naming new species of bugs and curing baldness aren't a priority.

But identifying medicinal plants? Knowing how to build and repair vehicles and weapons? Finding an energy source that's easy to acquire and usable with your limited resources, while also having enough output to matter?

Also, who says scientists need to be sheltered? Do you think scientists just sit in a tiny lab reading books and mixing chemicals all day? Do you not realize that a good portion of a scientist's time is actually going to be spent in the field, doing hands-on work?

[dehro]

Without going into the fact that calling scientists dumb is like calling the military pacificist...

How is a scientist not something worth having in a post-apocalypse scenario? I mean, I guess I could see the argument that certain kinds of science wouldn't be that useful; for example, if you're fighting zombies every day then naming new species of bugs and curing baldness aren't a priority.

But identifying medicinal plants? Knowing how to build and repair vehicles and weapons? Finding an energy source that's easy to acquire and usable with your limited resources, while also having enough output to matter?

Also, who says scientists need to be sheltered? Do you think scientists just sit in a tiny lab reading books and mixing chemicals all day? Do you not realize that a good portion of a scientist's time is actually going to be spent in the field, doing hands-on work?

also, in my experience, the definition of scientist does not exclude "raging lunatic with a gun"... whilst I agree that your average trained soldier is going to be a better fighter, there are plenty of scientists in various field who are extremely fit and capable of holding their ground in a fight.

[Coidzor]

A thirst for knowledge doesn't mean your dumb, but if from of the better off areas and or a particularly well off conclave, I see it being possible.

You kinda suggested they valued gaining knowledge over surviving to make use of it. That's... well, kinda dumb, which is why you see it as a quality of scientists in parody and satire, because it's over the top and audacious and, well, dumb. Maybe I'm misreading you though.

[Knight9910]

also, in my experience, the definition of scientist does not exclude "raging lunatic with a gun"... whilst I agree that your average trained soldier is going to be a better fighter, there are plenty of scientists in various field who are extremely fit and capable of holding their ground in a fight.

Is it sad that I instantly thought of two examples to say "yeah, like ___!" and both example were fictional characters and not real people?

(For the record: Daniel Jackson and Indiana Jones.)

[thubby]

engineers would probably be more useful in general than scientists.
there is a HUGE amount of overlap in training, but its generally the engineers with experience holding things together with string and duct tape.

[turkishproverb]

engineers would probably be more useful in general than scientists.
there is a HUGE amount of overlap in training, but its generally the engineers with experience holding things together with string and duct tape.

...

engineers ARE scientists.

and trust me, experimental scientists are quite as used to holding things together with random crap.

[thubby]

...

engineers ARE scientists.

me and the chemistry majors i share classes with would disagree.

[The Glyphstone]

me and the chemistry majors i share classes with would disagree.

The world's greatest engineer expresses his opinions on your disagreement.

[thubby]

The world's greatest engineer expresses his opinions on your disagreement.

im an engineering major, if that wasn't clear.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

While an infection is most likely to produce a transferable zombie like state, I have come to prefer a third option: we don't know. It's not magic per se in the sense of a spell, but it's magic in the sense it doesn't make any sense. Zombies don't make any sense, they make Thermodynamics cry, they make Biology curl up in a foetal position, they make Mechanical Engineering slam its head through a wall.
Any attempt at a rational explanation is going to run into inconsistencies.
So . . .don't.
After all, the unknown is much scarier.
Is it a curse?
Is it a disease?
Is Hell full?
Is it Armageddon?
The characters can speculate, but in the end, no one knows.
Maybe someday a full scientific team can get to work on figuring this out, but for now survival is a bit more important.

Ravens Cry said everything I wanted to say. It's the same reason I don't like set and known rules for magic: mystery is fun! The unknown is scary!

[dehro]

Is it sad that I instantly thought of two examples to say "yeah, like ___!" and both example were fictional characters and not real people?

(For the record: Daniel Jackson and Indiana Jones.)

shame on you for forgetting McGyver.

but no..I know a few who do martial arts, one who runs marathons and a couple of my old school buddies who were the most sporty active people in the world now work at Cern and other similar fancy science places in the world..and from what little I can see from their facebook piccies, they are no slackers.
and that's just the people I know.. I would expect that in a world largely taken over by zombies, the scientists that have managed to stay alive enough to be involved in some kind of reconstruction/survival comunity..would be the fittest and the toughest amongst their peers.. I see therefore no reason why a scientist would not be a good thing to have around....

[Knight9910]

Wait, MacGyver was a scientist? I thought he was a government agent with some scientific knowledge. That's not really the same thing.

...and this has gone completely off topic. Um, back on topic. I think Raven is right somewhat. The concept of undead defy pretty much all science as we know it. Admittedly what we humans know of science is rather limited, but still.

That said, is it possible to explain zombies without sounding like you're just spouting a bunch of technobabble BS? Of course it's possible. It's just that most people don't try because, really, why? Zombies are so enormously popular right now pretty much nothing with zombies in it can fail. (Note I didn't say anything with zombies would be GOOD, just that it wouldn't fail.)

Trying to make a zombie story more appealing to the masses is like trying to make water more wet. Pointless.

[Little Brother]

Cursed are BY FAR less scary. You just hole up of 2 months with a stockpile of food and water, and whatever the maggots, coyotes, at such haven't gotten, the rot will have.

Infected, though, are braindead, so I'm not too worried, same thing. Coyotes, dogs, pumas, and such will devour/destroy them, they'll starve once a ll the humans hide, and they very well might dehydrate to death. Just kick back for two months or so, then stick your head outside from a roof, so no zombies, see how it looks, then, yeah.