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    Default A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    The Paladin


    "Haven't you done enough heroics for the day?"
    "Nope. Paladin."
    -- AtwasAwamps' amazing paladin thread

    There are many men in the world. Some are good. Some are great. Some may even be called heroes. But all those pale in comparison to the paladin. Many wish to walk the paladinís path, but few have the strength of conviction or the purity of ideals necessary to fit the mold. A paladin is more than just a holy warrioró he is a leader among men, a shining example of everything Good and noble. He knows the truth of what it means to be a heroó itís not about you. Itís about everyone else.

    Game Rule Information:

    Abilities: As a melee warrior, Strength is probably the most important ability score for a paladin. Charisma is necessary for his class features, and Constitution enables him to take even more damage for his allies. Dexterity is less necessary, given his ability to wear heavy armor.
    Alignment: Any Good.
    Hit Die: d12

    Class Skills: A paladinís class skills are Climb (Strength), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spot (Wis).
    Skill points at 1st level: (4+Intelligence modifier) x4
    Skill points at each addition level: 4+Intelligence modifier

    Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special 0 lv 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
    1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Detect evil, Smite Evil 2 ó ó ó ó
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Divine grace, Lay on Hands, Bless Weapon 2 ó ó ó ó
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Heroís Presence, A Hero Never Stops 2 ó ó ó ó
    4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Turn undead, Bonus Feat 2 2 ó ó ó
    5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Special mount 3 2 ó ó ó
    6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Shield of Loyalty, A Hero Never Rests 3 2 ó ó ó
    7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Saintís Touch, Improved Smiting (1) 3 2 2 ó ó
    8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Prudent Healing, Bonus Feat 3 3 2 ó ó
    9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Favored of God, Holy Weapon 4 3 2 ó ó
    10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Heroís Sacrifice 4 3 2 2 ó
    11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Wings of Faith 4 3 3 2 ó
    12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Heroís Leadership, Bonus Feat 4 4 3 2 ó
    13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Banishing Smite, A Hero Never Dies 4 4 3 2 2
    14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Powered by Heroism, Improved Smiting (2) 5 4 3 3 2
    15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Heroís Shield 5 4 4 3 2
    16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Bulwark of Faith, Bonus Feat 5 4 4 3 2
    17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Faith in the Fallen 5 5 4 3 3
    18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Celestial Smite 5 5 4 4 3
    19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Perfection on Earth, Bonus Feat 5 5 4 4 3
    20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Death Before Dishonor 5 5 5 4 3

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (including tower shields).

    Spells(Su): A paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. A paladin automatically knows all spells on the Paladin spell list, and can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

    To cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladinís spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladinís Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. The paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.

    Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladinís aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to his paladin level.

    Detect Evil (Sp): As a swift action, a paladin can toggle this ability on or off. He does not have to concentrate to keep it active, although unless he does he can only detect the presence or absence of evil. He can never be stunned by an overwhelmingly powerful aura. Otherwise, it works as the spell.

    Smite Evil (Su): A paladin may attempt to smite evil as part of melee attack. He adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to his attack and damage rolls and deals an extra 1d6 damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, although he still deals normal weapon damage. If he misses, the smite is not considered used.

    After a successful smite, the paladin must wait 1d4 rounds before he can smite again. The rounds for recharge time are ticked off at the beginning of his turn. Apart from this recharge period, there is no limit to how many times a paladin may Smite Evil.

    At 7th level, the recharge time improves to 1d4-1 rounds. At 14th level, it improves to 1d4-2. The recharge time cannot be less than 0; however, if it is 0, the paladin can use another smite attempt in the same round, provided he has the opportunity to do so.

    Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

    Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to his paladin level ◊ his Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide his healing among multiple recipients, and he doesnít have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.

    Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesnít provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of his daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.

    A paladin may refresh his Lay on Hands pool with ten minutes of prayer. He may do so a number of times per day equal to one-half his Charisma modifier.

    Bless Weapon (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, any weapon wielded by a paladin is affected as through by a bless weapon spell. It loses this bonus one round after leaving the Paladin's hands.

    Heroís Presence (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is a shining force of light and hope. All allies within 30 feet gain a morale bonus to saves against fear and spells with the [Evil] description equal to the paladinís Charisma modifier.

    A Hero Never Stops(Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to fear, paralysis effects, and all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

    Turn Undead (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, he gains the supernatural ability to turn undead, as a cleric of his level. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

    Bonus Feat: At 4th level, and every subsequent 4th level, a paladin gains a bonus feat. This can be any [Divine] feat, any which involves Lay on Hands, Smite Evil, or another specific paladin ability, or any feat from the list of fighter bonus feats.

    Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve his in his crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

    As a full-round action, a paladin may magically call his mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladinís level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains until dismissed (a free action). The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

    While on the celestial planes, the mount heals damage at a rate of (paladin level) hit points/hour. Ability damage heals at a rate of (the paladinís Charisma modifier) points/hour, and negative levels heal at a rate of one/hour. All other status conditions are healed in an hour. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

    Should the paladinís mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. It can be summoned again after one week, minus a number of days equal to the paladinís Charisma modifier, however. During this period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

    In addition, the paladin gains Mounted Combat as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites.

    Shield of Loyalty (Su): At 6th level, a paladinís willingness to defend his friends reaches supernatural levels. Whenever an ally within 5 feet per point of his Charisma modifier takes hit point damage, the paladin may chose to take half the damage himself. Damage reduction does not apply. In addition, allies who are within range of this ability gain a +1 sacred bonus to armor class and saves. This bonus increased to +2 at 10th level, +3 at 15th level, and +4 at 20th level. Otherwise, this ability works like the shield other spell.

    A Hero Never Rests(Ex):- At 6th level, a paladin never becomes fatigued or exhausted, and doesn't need to sleep, trance, or otherwise rest his body to remain in fighting condition. He still must rest for 8 hours to prepare new spells, should he have he ability to cast them.

    Saintís Touch (Sp): At 7th level, a paladinís touch can cure many afflictions. He may spend 10 points from his Lay on Hands pool to cure disease, poison, or paralysis. He may spend 5 points to use lesser restoration as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to his paladin level, 20 points to use restoration, 25 points to cure any condition that would be affected by Heal, and 50 points to use greater restoration.

    Prudent Healing (Su): At 8th level, when using Lay on Hands to heal, a paladin may do so as a move action, rather than a standard action.

    Favored of God (Sp): At 9th level, a paladin can use divination, as the spell, once per day.

    Holy Weapon (Su): At 9th level, any weapon a paladin wields is treated as though it had the Holy weapon enhancement property. It loses this bonus one round after leaving the paladin's hands. If it already had the Holy enchantment, it instead deals an extra d6 damage against evil creatures.

    Heroís Sacrifice (Ex): At 10th level, a paladin would rather die than let his friends be killed. As an immediate action, if an ally within (five feet per paladin level) is targeted by an attack or spell, the paladin may push them out of the way and take the attack for them. The paladin moves in a straight line, provoking attacks of opportunity, enters the allyís square, and falls prone. The ally is shifted one square in a direction of the paladinís choice, and the paladin is the new target of the effect.

    He must declare that he is using this ability before the attack is rolled or the ally makes a save. He can use this ability a number of times per encounter equal to his Strength modifier.

    Wings of Faith (Ex): At 11th level, a paladin and his mount grow white feathered wings. He gains a fly speed equal to his base land speed with good maneuverability. His mount gains a 100 foot fly speed, also with good maneuverability. (See the mount section for more details). Both may fly while wearing heavy armor, provided that their total encumbrance does not exceed a heavy load.

    Heroís Leadership (Ex): At 12th level, a paladinís leadership skills are such that his friends would rather die than let him down. As a swift action, he may expend 20 points from his Lay on Hands pool to grant all allies within thirty feet a morale bonus to attack equal to his Charisma modifier and 1d8 temporary hit points per point of his Charisma modifier. These bonuses last for ten minutes per point of his Charisma modifier. Repeated uses of this ability do not stack-- instead, use whichever total is higher.

    Banishing Smite (Su): At 13th level, any evil outsider struck by a paladinís smite must make a will save (DC equals damage dealt) or be forced to return to its home plane. If already on its home plane, it instead takes 1d6 damage per paladin level on a failed save. This damage is pure divine energy, and it is not subject to spell resistance or damage reduction. The extra damage replaces the normal extra damage dealt by a smite attempt. Even if it succeeds on its save, it is still affected by the smite as normal.

    A Hero Never Dies(Ex): At 13th level, a paladin becomes immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects, as though he were continually affected by a death ward spell.

    Powered by Heroism (Su): At 14th level, a paladin gains fast healing equal to one-half his Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

    Heroís Shield (Ex): At 15th level, a paladin no longer provokes attacks of opportunity when using his Heroís Sacrifice. The recharge time decreases to (10- Charisma modifier) rounds. In addition, he may use the ability without incurring the recharge time, or during the recharge period, as long as he moves no more than 5 feet.

    Bulwark of Faith (Ex): At 16th level, a paladin blocks the line of effect for all spells, breath weapons, and other such effects. For example, if a dragon uses its breath weapon, anyone standing behind the paladin is not affected. In addition, he may shelter any one adjacent creature from all effects of an area spell.

    Faith in the Fallen (Sp): At 17th level, a paladinís faith can transcend the bonds of death. Once per day, as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, he may pay 200 experience and expend a refill of his Lay on Hands pool to bring a creature back from the dead, as long as they have been dead for no more than (Charisma Modifier) rounds. In all other respects, this ability functions as the revivify spell from the Spell Compendium, with a caster level equal to his paladin level.

    Alternately, he may pay 1,000 experience and all uses of lay on hands to use True Resurrection as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to his paladin level.

    Celestial Smite (Su): At 18th level, a paladinís smite is lethal. Evil outsiders and undead affected by a smite must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + one half paladin level + Charisma modifier) or be slain instantly. Even on a successful save, they take double the normal smite bonus damage.

    Perfection on Earth (Su): At 19th level, a paladin has transcended the limits of his human form. His type changes to Outsider (native), he gains damage reduction 10/evil, immunity to acid, cold, and electricity, spell resistance equal to his class level +10, and 60ft darkvison. (Unlike other types of spell resistance, he can allow any spell he chooses to bypass his resistance).

    Alternately, if the Book of Exalted Deeds is available, he can acquire the benefits of the Saint template instead of the above benefits. However, unlike the normal template, he only loses the benefits if he loses his paladin abilities (see Ex-Paladins, below). He regains the template when he atones.

    Death Before Dishonor (Ex): At 20th level, not even death can stop a paladin. If an effect would kill him, whether through hit point damage (in this case only, death is defined as negative hit points), ability damage, level drain, or anything else, he may delay the effect for 1d6 rounds. The DM rolls this check behind the screen- neither the paladin nor his player knows how long he has left to act. During this time, he gains a morale bonus on attack, damage, saving throws and skill checks equal to his Charisma modifier, and may make unlimited Smite attempts. Furthermore, he is considered invulnerable to all effects during this state- he takes no damage from attacks, isnít affected by spells, and is unaffected by difficult or damaging terrain. This invulnerability does extend to effects used by allies or the paladin himself-- he cannot be healed, cannot be buffed, and cannot be stopped.

    After the duration of this ability expires, he takes the full effect of whatever attack or spell provoked this state. However, if his efforts directly saved the life of another sentient being, he drops to -9 hit points instead. Simply defeating threatening foes isnít enough to qualify- he must stop an attack that would have killed an ally, healed an friend back to consciousness from negative HP, carried a fallen comrade to safety, and so on.

    Paladin Spell List
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    0-Level Paladin Spells (Orisons)
    • Bless Water: Makes holy water.
    • Bless Weapon: Weapon strikes true against evil foes.[/I]
    • Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
    • Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or small object.
    • Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
    • Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
    • Light: Object shines like a torch.
    • Read Magic: Read scrolls and spellbooks.
    • Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
    • Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.


    1st Level Paladin Spells
    • Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and +1 on saves against fear.
    • Bearís Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
    • Bullís Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
    • Comprehend Languages: You understand all spoken and written languages.
    • Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
    • Eagleís Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
    • Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
    • Lionheart (SpC): Subject gains immunity to fear.
    • Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
    • Moment of Clarity (SpC): Subject gains second save against mind-affecting spell or ability.
    • Protection from Evil: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
    • Resurgence (SpC): You grant subject a second chance at a saving throw.
    • Rhinoís Rush (SpC): Next charge deals double damage.
    • See Invisibility: Reveals invisible creatures or objects.
    • Sense Heretic (SpC): Glow reveals when evil creature is near.
    • Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.


    2nd Level Paladin Spells
    • Aura of Glory (SpC): Remove any fear effect from allies.
    • Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
    • Divine Insight (SpC): You gain insight bonus of 5 + caster level on one single skill check.
    • Heroism: Gives +2 bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks.
    • Holy Mount (SpC): Special mount gains celestial template.
    • Invisibility Purge: Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
    • Knightís Move (SpC): You instantly move to flank a subject.
    • Magic Circle against Evil: As protection from evil, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
    • Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
    • Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
    • Shield Other (F): You take half of subjectís damage.
    • Zeal (SpC): You move through foes to attack the enemy you want.
    • Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie.


    3rd Level Paladin Spells
    • Death Ward: Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
    • Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
    • Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
    • Find the Gap (SpC): Your attacks ignore armor and natural armor.
    • Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
    • Heal Mount: As heal on warhorse or other special mount.
    • Mantle of Good(SpC): You gain SR 12 + caster level against spells with opposite alignment descriptor.
    • Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
    • Resurgence, Mass (SpC): As resurgence, but multiple subjects.
    • Tongues: Speak any language.
    • Weapon of the Deity (SpC): Your weapon gains enhancement bonus and special ability.


    4th Level Paladin Spells
    • Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
    • Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
    • Dispel Evil: +4 bonus against attacks by evil creatures.
    • Favor of The Martyr (SpC): Subject gains immunity to nonlethal damage, charm and compulsion effects, and other adverse conditions
    • Hallow (M): Designates location as holy.
    • Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
    • Heroism, Greater: Gives +4 bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks; immunity to fear; temporary hp.
    • Holy Sword: Weapon becomes +5, deals +2d6 damage against evil.
    • Revenance (SpC): Restores dead creature to life for 1 minute/ level.
    • Righteous Aura: You detonate on death, healing good creatures and damaging others (2d6/level damage).
    • Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
    • Sacred Haven (SpC): Creatures gain +2 AC, retain Dex bonus, and you can lay on hands at range.
    • Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
    • True Seeing (M): Lets you see all things as they really are.


    The Paladinís Mount
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    In addition to possessing the Celestial template, he paladinís mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well.

    A paladinís mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (including bonus hit die, base attack bonus, and so on).
    Paladin Level Bonus HD Natural Armor Adj. Str Adj. Int Special
    5th-7th +2 +4 +1 6 Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws, Mounted Combat
    8th-10th +4 +6 +2 7 Improved speed, Ride-By Attack
    11th-14th +6 +8 +3 8 Flight, Spirited Charge
    15th-20th +8 +10 +4 9 Spell resistance, Charging Smite

    Paladinís Mount Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the mountís kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.

    Bonus HD: Extra ten-sided (d10) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mountís base attack and base save bonuses. A special mountís base attack bonus is equal to his number of hit die. A mount has good Fortitude save (treat it as a character whose level equals the animalís HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monsterís Hit Dice.

    Natural Armor Adj: The number on the table is an improvement to the mountís existing natural armor bonus.

    Str Adj: Add this figure to the mountís Strength score.

    Int: The mountís Intelligence score.

    Empathic Link (Su): The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mountís eyes, but they can communicate empathically.

    Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.

    Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar.

    Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.

    Share Spells: At the paladinís option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount.

    The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mountís type (magical beast).

    Share Saving Throws: For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladinís, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesnít share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.

    Improved Speed (Ex): The mountís speed increases by 10 feet.

    Ride-By Attack (Ex): A paladin is treated as having the Ride-By Attack feat while riding his mount.

    Flight (Ex): The mount grows a pair of wings, granting it a 100ft fly speed with good maneuverability. If it already possessed a fly speed, it gains a 30ft bonus to fly speed and its maneuverability increases by one step.

    Spirited Charge: A paladin is treated as having the Spirited Charge feat while riding his mount.

    Spell Resistance (Ex): A mountís spell resistance equals its masterís paladin level + 5. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mountís spell resistance. Unlike other types of spell resistance, he may chose to allow any spell he wishes to penetrate his resistance, and is smart enough to recognize beneficial spells.

    Charging Smite: When using the Spirited Charge feat, a paladin multiplies his Smite Evil damage by two (by three with a lance).


    The Paladinís Code

    All paladins follow a code of conduct, although the exact code varies from order to order and from paladin to paladin. Most codes cover the following points:

    • Honesty- a paladin does not attempt to lie, cheat, or mislead others.
    • Courage- a paladin does not flee from battle, or hide from the consequences of his actions.
    • Mercy- a paladin does not kill the helpless or torture the fallen. Whenever possible, he gives aid to those he meets, regardless of race or creed.
    • Loyalty- a paladin does not betray those he considers his allies, regardless of temptations that may be laid against him.
    • Humility- a paladin does not intentionally set himself up to be a higher moral authority, nor does he attempt to impose his views on others. His role is to be a shining example, to lead others, rather than drag them kicking and screaming.


    And so on. He does NOT immediately fall for breaking his codeó and indeed, most paladins are wise enough to know that there are grey areas in morality. Itís better to fool a man than to have to kill him. Sometimes, itís not feasible to take a prisoner, or more merciful to provide a swift death to an injured foe. There are times when killing is the most appropriate form of justice. Occasionally, one must work with unsavory types for the greater goodó and yes, they can become friends.

    Ex-Paladins:

    A paladin falls when he commits an truly evil actó unnecessary murder, the enslavement of another being, and so on. He cannot fall for actions he is forced to perform, or for situations where he was misguidedó only a consciously evil choice can cause him to fall.

    A fallen paladin loses all supernatural and spell-like class abilities until he atones. This is not as simple as casting the spelló his own deeds caused him to fall, and his own deeds are the only things that can make things right. If he follows his code and general acts in a Good manner for one month (or until he levels up, whichever comes first), then he may cast an atonement spell, as normal. Or, if he performs a truly heroic deed (as seen in the eyes of the gods; see Death Before Dishonor for examples), he is instantly forgiven, and has his class features restored.

    AFC: Sword of God
    Lose: Bless Weapon, Special Mount, Holy Weapon
    Gain: Sword of God

    Sword of God (Su): A paladin's weapon is a direct manifestation of his link to his deity. At first level, he gains a masterwork weapon of any type he is proficient with. This is henceforth referred to as his Paladin Weapon. In addition to the abilities described below, his paladin weapon becomes the focus for his spells, and he cannot use his smite evil ability with another weapon.

    If his weapon is destroyed, he may forge a new one, at a cost of 200 experience points, in addition to the usual materials needed to craft a masterwork weapon.

    At 2nd level, a paladin's weapon becomes good-aligned.

    At 3rd level, a paladin's weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage. This bonus increases by one at 6th level, and every third level thereafter, to a maximum of +5 at 15th level.

    At 5th level, a paladin gains the ability to call his weapon to his hands from anywhere on the plane as a free action.

    At 8th level, a paladin's weapon gains the holy property.

    At 11th level, a paladin's weapon becomes intelligent, with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 10. It may communicate with the paladin emphatically, can see and hear, and has two minor powers (see the Intelligent Items section in the DMG or SRD for details).

    At 16th level, a paladin's weapon's mental ability scores increase to 14 each, it gains 60 foot blindsense, and one major power.

    At 18th level, a paladin's weapon gains the brilliant energy property. However, unlike normal brilliant energy weapons, it will still damage constructs and the undead.

    All of these benefits (with the exception of the intelligence) are lost one round after the weapon leaves the paladin's hands, but return immediately when he retrieves it.

    New Feats:

    Extra Lay on Hands
    Prerequisite: Cha 13, Lay on Hands.
    Benefit: You may refresh your lay on hands pool an extra time per day.

    Ranged Smiting
    Prerequisite: Smite Evil class ability
    Benefit: You may attempt to Smite Evil with a ranged attack.

    Repeated Smiting
    Prerequisite: Smite Evil class ability, BAB +6
    Benefit: As a full round action, you may expend a use of your Smite Evil ability and make a full attack. Each attack you make has a bonus to attack equal to your Charisma modifier, and deals bonus damage equal to your Paladin level. Using this ability counts as Smiting Evil for all intents and purposes.

    Rapid Smite
    Prerequisite: Smite Evil class ability
    Benefit: You may attempt to Smite Evil when making an opportunity attack.

    Mighty Smiting
    Prerequisite: Smite Evil class ability, Strength 15
    Benefit: Your Smite attacks bypass damage reduction.

    2/4: Updated for compatability with the fixed-list caster project.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2014-06-15 at 11:40 AM.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Honestly, I haven't read through all the actual features yet, all I've read is the quote, which amuses me for one specific reason:

    "Not today, monster. Not while a drop of blood remains in my veins, or an ounce of steel in my hand."
    Emphasis mine. Does this mean that the paladin is willing to go undead to continue to fight? ^^
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    I didn't read the mount stuff. But I did read about 90% of the Paladin stuff. Here's my thoughts on this:

    Firstly, I thoroughly enjoyed what I read. I am giong to assume this is for D&D 3.5? I've been running Pathfinder and have a Paladin in my party and they made the Paladin a lot better than 3.5's version.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (including tower shields).
    Emphasis is mine. I don't like this. Fighters being the only class able to use them from the start is the one reason people would play as a Fighter and not have to waste a Feat to use them. I would remove this since you increased their HP to d12's.

    Prudent Healing (Su): At 8th level, when using Lay on Hands on himself, a paladin may do so as a move action, rather than a standard action.
    I like this actually. But I would change it slightly. I would have it be a Move Action to use Lay on Hands instead of a Standard Action, and a Free Action to let the Paladin use it on himself. If used to harm undead, then it would be an attack action as normal in the description.

    Favored of God (Sp): At 9th level, a paladin can use divination, as the spell, once per day. Unlike the normal spell, he has a 100% chance of getting a correct answer.
    I would change this to once per week, otherwise the Paladin could throw the flow and balance of the campaign off fairly easily. But I like it nonetheless.

    Wings of Faith (Ex): At 11th level, a paladin and his mount grow white feathered wings. He gains a 40 foot fly speed with good maneuverability, and his mount gains a 100 foot fly speed, also with good maneuverability. (See the mount section for more details).
    Wow. I like this as well. The whole angelic feel and flavor. Very nice. Though I would limit it to maybe a few hours per day per Charisma modifier or something.

    Shield of Loyalty (Su): At 6th level, a paladinís willingness to defend his friends reaches supernatural levels. All adjacent allies are considered to be under the effects of a shield other spell, with the paladin as the caster.
    Genious. My question is, does the Paladin benefit from this or not? I would imagine he wouldn't based on RAW. But I really like this. What's constitutes as adjacent though? Allies directly next to the Paladin? Or within a short distance? Might want to specify this.

    Heroís Sacrifice (Ex): At 10th level, a paladin would rather die than let his friends be killed. As an immediate action, if an ally within (five feet per paladin level) is targeted by an attack or spell, the paladin may push them out of the way and take the attack for them. The paladin moves in a straight line, provoking attacks of opportunity, and enters the allyís square. The ally is shifted one square in a direction of the paladinís choice, and the paladin is the new target of the effect.

    After using this ability, he cannot use it again for one minute. He must declare that he is using this ability before the attack is rolled or the ally makes a save. The now-adjacent ally is considered under the effects of his Shield of Loyalty ability, as usual.
    I like this as well. Though I would limit it to once per day at level 10, maybe twice per day at level 15 and three times at level 20? Or maybe have it cost a set number of Lay on Hands like the Saint's Touch ability does? Just ideas.

    Heroís Leadership (Ex): At 12th level, a paladinís leadership skills are such that his friends would rather die than let him down. All allies within 30ft gain 1d8 temporary hit points per point of his Charisma modifier.
    I like this idea, but it would be an accounting nightmare in combat when characters are moving around all over the place, moving in and out of the range of this ability. Maybe change it to where the Paladin gets a huge pool of Temporary Hit Points per day that he can "hand out" among his allies at the beginning of the day? Or maybe if his allies leave the 30 ft radius they lose the points and don't get them back if they move back in?

    Faith in the Fallen (Sp): At 17th level, a paladinís faith can transcend the bonds of death. Once per day, he pay 1,000 experience and all remaining uses of lay on hands (both the points left in the pool, and any potential refills) to use True Resurrection as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to his paladin level.
    I like this. Though I would change it slightly to request he must have a full Lay on Hands pool and all points are spent along with the XP. Otherwise, a Paladin could wait until he only has 1 point left and use this ability while still able to utilize all-day's worth of Lay on Hands before bringing someone back.

    Celestial Smite (Su): At 18th level, a paladinís smite is lethal. Evil outsiders and undead affected by a smite must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 + one half paladin level + Charisma modifier) or be slain instantly. Even on a successful save, they take double the normal smite bonus damage.
    This. Is. Awesome.

    As I do like this, I would like to see what, if anything, you plan on doing with the other base classes, because I can see no reason why the entire group would play anything other than a Paladin. You made them awesome. Their capstone ability makes them not only badass, but gives the character a little extra time to brought back to life by another character while they're doing thier thing. And since he takes no damage from attacks, a whole bunch of healing sent his way, including from himself, could keep him from actually dying, making it possible for players to abuse this ability. I would put in there that the Paladin is also immune to any healing done. Maybe something in there that when the Paladin does die, it would either be extremely hard to res them, or they cannot be brought back despite any attempt made by anyone. Afterall, they did die an honorable death, in the name of their deity, defending someone/thing/place.

    These are just my own personal thoughts. And if the other base classes get stuff like this in equal power/utility, then most of my critique could be tossed out the window and into traffic. I like what you did. They make the Paladin a more viable class in a dangerous and evil realm. And like I said, I haven't even looked at the mount stuff. Maybe I will later and provide my feedback/thoughts. Just bear in mind, in no way, shape or form am I trying to be mean or anything. lol Just trying to provide my PEACH as requested. Keep up the good, inventive work.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Why not? After all, Necropolitans aren't evil, for one... And there are always Deathless.

    I have one gripe, with just a quick read-through; Share Spells is a feature on your mount. You have to multi-class to actually gain the benefits (unless you rule that magic items that produce spell-like effects actually count as casting a spell, which is rather ambiguous in the rules...)

    I suggest something a bit different... maybe the mount should, at that level, be treated as if it and the Paladin are the same creature, as long as the Paladin is riding the mount? Pool the HP, use the higher of their ability scores, saves, and AC, and have the mount gain the benefits of such delicious things as Bulwark of Faith.

    Other than that, everything looks fine at a glance.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Domriso View Post
    Emphasis mine. Does this mean that the paladin is willing to go undead to continue to fight? ^^
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentnone View Post
    Emphasis is mine. I don't like this. Fighters being the only class able to use them from the start is the one reason people would play as a Fighter and not have to waste a Feat to use them. I would remove this since you increased their HP to d12's.
    Presumably, this is to be used in a campaign with a Fighter fix (such as the Warblade). In addition, tower shields aren't really that great except if you want to carry your own cover with you.

    ...However, I would like to remind you, Grod, that immunity to Cold gives vulnerability to Fire, by RAW. Angels get immunity to Cold, but also resistance to Fire, to partially mitigate that.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight
    ...However, I would like to remind you, Grod, that immunity to Cold gives vulnerability to Fire, by RAW. Angels get immunity to Cold, but also resistance to Fire, to partially mitigate that.
    Really? I'll make a note about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by agentnone
    Emphasis is mine. I don't like this. Fighters being the only class able to use them from the start is the one reason people would play as a Fighter and not have to waste a Feat to use them. I would remove this since you increased their HP to d12's.
    I guess my thinking was mostly that paladins are supposed to be massive tanks, so they should get the biggest defenses all around.


    I like this actually. But I would change it slightly. I would have it be a Move Action to use Lay on Hands instead of a Standard Action, and a Free Action to let the Paladin use it on himself. If used to harm undead, then it would be an attack action as normal in the description.
    Probably not a bad idea.


    I would change this to once per week, otherwise the Paladin could throw the flow and balance of the campaign off fairly easily. But I like it nonetheless.
    OTOH, a cleric can use it multiple times per day, every day, with an extremely high chance of success. And weeks are harder to keep track of in-game than days.


    Wow. I like this as well. The whole angelic feel and flavor. Very nice. Though I would limit it to maybe a few hours per day per Charisma modifier or something.
    That might be wise. Say the paladin can fly Charisma Modifier hours per day, split up however he wants, and his mount can fly at will, since you can swap out for a pegasus mount at something like 6th level.


    Genious. My question is, does the Paladin benefit from this or not? I would imagine he wouldn't based on RAW. But I really like this. What's constitutes as adjacent though? Allies directly next to the Paladin? Or within a short distance? Might want to specify this.
    Adjacent is usually defined as directly next to. The paladin just takes the damage... and I should probably specify that he can chose whether or not he wants to take it.


    I like this as well. Though I would limit it to once per day at level 10, maybe twice per day at level 15 and three times at level 20? Or maybe have it cost a set number of Lay on Hands like the Saint's Touch ability does? Just ideas.
    The recharge time basically limits it to once per encounter-- I've never seen a fight go on more than a few rounds-- and I've never really understood how purely physical abilities can have a per-day limit.


    I like this idea, but it would be an accounting nightmare in combat when characters are moving around all over the place, moving in and out of the range of this ability. Maybe change it to where the Paladin gets a huge pool of Temporary Hit Points per day that he can "hand out" among his allies at the beginning of the day? Or maybe if his allies leave the 30 ft radius they lose the points and don't get them back if they move back in?
    ... you're right. I'll figure out another way to do this. Maybe a x/day projection as a swift action or something.


    I like this. Though I would change it slightly to request he must have a full Lay on Hands pool and all points are spent along with the XP. Otherwise, a Paladin could wait until he only has 1 point left and use this ability while still able to utilize all-day's worth of Lay on Hands before bringing someone back.
    Maybe he has to have at least one pool refresh remaining.

    Actually, thinking about this... I swear there was a spell that let you revive someone who had been dead for less than a round without spending lots of gold/experience point penalties. That might be better, with some modifications, if I can find it...

    As I do like this, I would like to see what, if anything, you plan on doing with the other base classes, because I can see no reason why the entire group would play anything other than a Paladin. You made them awesome.
    Other classes can still do other things, but yeah, awesomeness was the idea.

    Their capstone ability makes them not only badass, but gives the character a little extra time to brought back to life by another character while they're doing thier thing. And since he takes no damage from attacks, a whole bunch of healing sent his way, including from himself, could keep him from actually dying, making it possible for players to abuse this ability. I would put in there that the Paladin is also immune to any healing done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
    Furthermore, he is considered invulnerable to all effects during this state- he takes no damage from attacks, isnít affected by spells, and is unaffected by difficult or damaging terrain. This invulnerability does extend to spells cast by allies.
    I should put in something to clarify, but yeah. You can't be healed, can't be buffed, can't be stopped. Just pure holy badassery.

    These are just my own personal thoughts. And if the other base classes get stuff like this in equal power/utility, then most of my critique could be tossed out the window and into traffic. I like what you did. They make the Paladin a more viable class in a dangerous and evil realm.
    Well thank you The idea is to balance him against the Tome of Battle and other tier-3 classes, while retaining a lot of the iconic paladin abilities.

    Keep up the good, inventive work.
    Will do

    UPDATE: incorporated minor fixes.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-11-03 at 11:15 AM.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    I like it...it has a number of themes (super-smite against evil outsiders and undead, a capstone allowing him to resist death, a primary focus on morale-based [Ex] abilities) that I've been considering for a paladin remix.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-11-03 at 10:34 AM.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    I really like that you apparently based your Code on knightly virtues.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    ...However, I would like to remind you, Grod, that immunity to Cold gives vulnerability to Fire, by RAW. Angels get immunity to Cold, but also resistance to Fire, to partially mitigate that.
    Where is this said? I know that it's true about the cold subtype (which grants cold immunity and fire vulnerability) but I don't remember ever reading that the immunity itself grants a vulnerability.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmer
    I really like that you apparently based your Code on knightly virtues.
    Thanks. Given that paladins are the stereotypical knights in shining armor...

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Where is this said? I know that it's true about the cold subtype (which grants cold immunity and fire vulnerability) but I don't remember ever reading that the immunity itself grants a vulnerability.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Cold Immunity

    A creature with cold immunity never takes cold damage. It has vulnerability to fire, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fire, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-11-03 at 12:32 PM.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Where is this said? I know that it's true about the cold subtype (which grants cold immunity and fire vulnerability) but I don't remember ever reading that the immunity itself grants a vulnerability.
    That's what it says in the SRD, though I honestly don't remember that being in the actual monster manual.

    It doesn't really make sense that both the immunity and the subtype have copy-pasted text between them.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    That's what it says in the SRD, though I honestly don't remember that being in the actual monster manual.

    It doesn't really make sense that both the immunity and the subtype have copy-pasted text between them.
    Huh... I can't find an entry in the MMI glossary for Energy Immunity at all. The MMV (the only other one I have a hard copy of) has the following entry:

    Immunity: A creature that has immunity to an effect is never harmed (or helped) by that effect. A creature cannot suppress an immunity to receive a beneficial effect.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Two things.

    1. You should probably restrict the alignment to 'Any Good', unless you want devils taking levels in this class so they can smite demons.

    2. Smite Evil still kinda sucks, so I would suggest you take a leaf from Pathfinders book and make it ignore DR as well. Also, the first part of the text says per day, rather than per encounter.
    Last edited by Curious; 2011-11-03 at 02:16 PM.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    I'm going to go with the assumption that the SRD has a shoddy errata or a copy-paste error then.

    Otherwise this unbalances Fire or Cold Immunity compared to the weakness free Acid, Sonic etc Immunity abilities. I'm fine with the subtypes staying that way but that's only because their the only subtypes that actually grant an advantage...
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    Two things.

    1. You should probably restrict the alignment to 'Any Good', unless you want devils taking levels in this class so they can smite demons.

    2. Smite Evil still kinda sucks, so I would suggest you take a leaf from Pathfinders book and make it ignore DR as well. Also, the first part of the text says per day, rather than per encounter.
    1. Whoops. LG is kind of assumed for a paladin, but I might as well codify it.
    2. Good idea. Maybe also a class ability or feat that lets you Smite with every hit during a full attack? THAT would add up fast...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive
    I'm going to go with the assumption that the SRD has a shoddy errata or a copy-paste error then.
    That does seem to be the case, yeah. Fixed.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-11-03 at 02:30 PM.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Yeah, I agree with Mulletman; the SRD looks in the wrong here.

    Now as for the abilities (which I finally read), this looks pretty epic. Definitely follows a good track, and is more fun to play than other Paladin fixes I've seen.

    As for the Faith in the Fallen ability, the spell you're thinking of (I think) is Revivify, which was printed in the Spell Compendium. It lets you bring a creature back to life, so long as it died within 1 round, and has no XP cost, but does have a gp cost (one diamond of at least 1000 gp cost). There's also Psionic Revivify, which is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, which does the same thing but has an XP cost of 200, with the added ability to spend additional XP. For every additional 100 XP spent, the creature can have been dead for one round more.

    I would suggest doing something along the lines of allowing the Paladin to spend a certain amount of their Lay on Hands pool to bring someone back from the dead, so long as they've been dead only one round, which requires their body be present (as both those spells require it). Let them spend more points to extend the time the character has been dead back further, so they don't have to use it immediately.

    Now, to keep the capability to use the True Resurrection ability, what about having to spend their entire pool, as in, the pool has to be completely full, and then also spend XP. I mean, True Resurrection is more of a spell you take time to prepare to cast, rather than something you do on the fly, so this doesn't feel like so much of a change. And, if you keep the Revivify capabilities mentioned above, they'll still be able to bring people back to life if they need to.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Excuses if I sound harsh, but I guess I must be the...fiendish advocate. There are a few things I should deal with, though I expect solid explanations on why these happen. It'll be a bit more relaying stuff told to me and the reasons why they're right, but consider them as I go.

    The first thing I find odd is that you nixed their spellcasting entirely. That not only means the spells they share with the Cleric, but also the unique spells they're entitled to (Heal Mount, Holy Sword, plus all the stuff from Spell Compendium). I find the replacement rather odd, since while you can replicate the effect of spells through the use of magic items, the effect will remain the same (you'll heal the same 1d8+1 points by using a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, while a Paladin expending a prepared CLW spell would heal one extra point by the time you gain this ability). While the amount of spells has expanded quite a bit, the restricted CL will do roughly worse. I'd mostly recommend returning them their spellcasting ability, expanding their spell list to cover all applicable cleric spells (with a policy of "paladins get the lowest spell level" whenever both classes have the same spell on different spell levels), but since I assume spellcasting was nixed to make a "purer" martial class and/or you want to deal with MAD, you can compromise with a way to augment the effective CL of a wand, scroll or even staff whenever you use them to cast spells. That way, even if only limited to half your class level, you'll still have some serious power flailing around.

    The second is that for the first six levels, the damage potential is limited. Aside from the smites, you fight exactly as a paladin does, including their feat starvation. Smites do exactly the same amount of damage as before (1 per paladin level), which is pretty low for the super-attack the Paladin is meant to have. Even going for 10 levels, the offensive options of a Paladin are limited. You still depend on using a two-handed weapon and Power Attack to deal some decent damage (and have higher Strength, which you can only muster via the use of wands), but the inability to get Combat Expertise for Improved Trip (you'd need more Int for that) makes you unable to go lockdown, the lack of feats makes you bad for grapple, and the extra damage is limited by alignment. You'll need a bit more in terms of offensive options, considering the best way you can deal damage is through charging, and you might have some players wishing for an unmounted Paladin. Forcing a Paladin player to go mounted in order to deal some damage restricts the class' options, which is generally a bad idea when you're building (or in this case, reworking) a class. I'd suggest as a bare minimum some bonus feats, even if that means treading on the Fighter's toes. As Mando said, this is best used on a campaign where the Fighter has also upgraded a bit (either through a fix, or ditching it altogether and going Warblade, whichever suits you), so adding extra feats really shouldn't worry. The Paladin needs more options, considering they get even more choices than the Fighter would (divine feats, for example, and also devotion and exalted feats if you extend those as well). I'd also recommend upping the base Smite Evil damage, something close to 3+class level or 5+class level. Even per encounter, that means you get some very good damage, whereas at high levels you'll deal a reasonable amount of damage nonetheless.

    The Paladin's Divination SLA really doesn't seem to fit them. A Paladin might use the divination from someone else, but rarely will seek that divination, instead relying on his faith and his deity to deal with the unexpected. Any particular reason this SLA is in? This ability could have some explanation other than "it's cool and a Cleric does it, so why not a Paladin?"

    You should modify Shield of Loyalty a bit. As it stands, your allies need to be within 5 ft. (that's what adjacent stands for in-game) to gain the benefit, and the Shield Other benefit works only when they take hit point damage, meaning they don't get the benefit of the increased AC and saves. Both the reach AND the lack of benefits makes it a poor ability, since you don't want to force your allies to remain so close (a perfect place for a Fireball, and you absorb not only YOUR damage but also half of the damage your allies take, which sounds suspiciously as a one-hit kill). I'd go for a passive bonus of +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus to saves that increases by level (every 3 levels, maybe? You can choose to make them sacred bonuses in order to allow them to stack with other deflection and resistance bonuses), and the area of effect of the ability increases by level. That way, you'll be providing so many bonuses to your allies, the enemies will probably aim at you in order to take you down, which by extension makes your job easier.

    Hero's Leadership, as it stands, is sorta worse than Mass Aid (a 3rd level Cleric spell). Although the amount can reach pretty high levels, on average the ability mostly works if you have over 20 Charisma. This is pretty easy, but you're expending points from your Lay on Hands to compensate, and Mass Aid offers a mild but reasonable bonus (+1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves vs. fear). You might consider boosting this ability so that it works slightly better; a bonus to attack rolls might be a reasonable idea (you're commanding your allies to press the advantage, making you a fitting leader, and you also take advantage of the ability), thus making it far better than Mass Aid would be.

    Bulwark of Faith comes, IMO, a bit TOO late. It comes later than Evasion, later than Improved Evasion, and it still does nothing for spread AoE, something you might want to explain (remember that you might be blocking the line of effect of a Fireball, but the spell's damage wraps around the obstacle, making blocking line of effect a bit pointless in that case. Lowering it from its current level to, say, level 10 or something might be worthwhile. A Hero Never Sleeps is likewise gained a bit too late, since by that moment you've probably found a way to sleep in extra-dimensional areas (not depending on mundane tents), so that vigilance is no longer needed (and exhaustion stops being a concern).

    Related to the lack of offensive abilities AND the lack of spellcasting: I find it really odd that you don't grant the paladin the ability to bless any weapon he or she wields, eventually making it Holy. A blessed weapon can be gained as early as 4th level, whereas turning any weapon into a Holy weapon can be gained at any moment after 13th level (where you would have gained the Holy Sword spell). 2d6 might not seem like much, but it eventually adds a lot of punch to your attacks, something (I still have to mention) the paladin lacks. Remember that reinforcing your offensive is definitely not a bad idea, since you'll still retain the protective focus of the class.

    I'd love to see more things depending on Strength and Constitution, since you claim these are your most important stats alongside Charisma. As it stands, Strength is necessary but only for your damage, while Constitution still holds the dubious benefit of adding only to Hit Points and Fortitude saves (since you no longer depend on Constitution). I can see stuff like Powered by Heroism and Death before Dishonor relying on Constitution (the former by replacing Charisma with Constitution and the latter by extending the amount of rounds you can remain alive by your Constitution modifier, which gives you a sizable buffer of heroism).

    The benefits from Perfection on Earth are still acquired far too late. The Paladin could use DR early on its career, some resistances that eventually turn into immunities, and perhaps a lesser form of spell resistance, all of which can be upgraded by that level into what they provide. Also: you're capable of gaining the Saint template without fulfilling the requirements, or you still need to qualify for them? Note that this makes following a stringent code a life-or-death decision, since the Paladin's abilities may be regained with Atonement (with time, but you're still capable of receiving the atonement benefit eventually), but the Saint template is forever lost if you screw it. You may want to be a bit more benign on that matter, where your commitment to justice makes you retain the template even if you fall short of it.

    As you may know, I'm a bit passionate about Paladins and I tend to have a very specific view on them, so I'll ask you to excuse me if it slips on the critique; rest assured, I went mostly on the mechanics, and on ways to improve them to do your job better. As it stands, it falls a bit too close on what the Monk does, except with "free" UMD on top of it: lots of immunities and passive defenses. The flying mount (and Paladin) and the fast healing make it stand a bit higher than the core Monk, but not for much as you're going a bit too far on the defensive and a bit too lax on the offensive. Be creative on how to augment the offensive without making it a "Warblade with better defenses". The reason is because you're trying to make it distinct to a Crusader, but the latter will be a bit more consistent on both damage, defenses and buffing whereas the Paladin will have to work a lot to compare on damage and buffing (although your defenses far outrank those of the Crusader). Playing a defensive character is tricky in D&D, and having a character that only relies passive defenses to the party and some minor buffing won't really attract most people into playing the Paladin, regardless of how invincible it may seem.
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    My friend is currently playing a paladin. It's way outside his normal zone. I told him to try to channel Santa Claus, Mr. Rogers, and Kermit the Frog. Until someone refuses to try to get off the naughty list. Then become Optimus Prime.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Otherwise this unbalances Fire or Cold Immunity compared to the weakness free Acid, Sonic etc Immunity abilities.
    Who says they have to be balanced?

    As for the actual question...consider that while the SRD does say that rule, the actual vulnerability shows up for subtype creatures, but not for other creatures with the immunities such as half-dragons, or skeletons, or the Tarrasque. So I'd say that it's already an internal contradiction, and I lean toward that it doesn't apply to everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Thanks. Given that paladins are the stereotypical knights in shining armor...[/URL]
    That's how I handle it also. But if it were that obvious we wouldn't have so many pathetic do-gooder paladins running around trying to kill everyone who detects as evil.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Who says they have to be balanced?
    Common sense? Standardisation? Good design principals? The simple logic that a perfect termal insulator should be immune to both?
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmar
    That's how I handle it also. But if it were that obvious we wouldn't have so many pathetic do-gooder paladins running around trying to kill everyone who detects as evil.
    I think it was someone on these boards who said that just as many are called to the paladin's path but few succeed at it, so it is with paladin players.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    The first thing I find odd is that you nixed their spellcasting entirely. That not only means the spells they share with the Cleric, but also the unique spells they're entitled to (Heal Mount, Holy Sword, plus all the stuff from Spell Compendium). I find the replacement rather odd, since while you can replicate the effect of spells through the use of magic items, the effect will remain the same (you'll heal the same 1d8+1 points by using a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, while a Paladin expending a prepared CLW spell would heal one extra point by the time you gain this ability). While the amount of spells has expanded quite a bit, the restricted CL will do roughly worse. I'd mostly recommend returning them their spellcasting ability, expanding their spell list to cover all applicable cleric spells (with a policy of "paladins get the lowest spell level" whenever both classes have the same spell on different spell levels), but since I assume spellcasting was nixed to make a "purer" martial class and/or you want to deal with MAD, you can compromise with a way to augment the effective CL of a wand, scroll or even staff whenever you use them to cast spells. That way, even if only limited to half your class level, you'll still have some serious power flailing around.
    You did correctly divine my intentions. While MAD could have been avoided by changing the spellcasting to Charisma based, I've never really been a fan of paladin spellcasting. Eliminating it lets me add more powerful class features. Divine Soul is there largely to let him still get into paladin-aimed prestige classes. I'm not sure about augmenting magic item power, though...

    The second is that for the first six levels, the damage potential is limited. Aside from the smites, you fight exactly as a paladin does, including their feat starvation. Smites do exactly the same amount of damage as before (1 per paladin level), which is pretty low for the super-attack the Paladin is meant to have. Even going for 10 levels, the offensive options of a Paladin are limited. You still depend on using a two-handed weapon and Power Attack to deal some decent damage (and have higher Strength, which you can only muster via the use of wands), but the inability to get Combat Expertise for Improved Trip (you'd need more Int for that) makes you unable to go lockdown, the lack of feats makes you bad for grapple, and the extra damage is limited by alignment. You'll need a bit more in terms of offensive options, considering the best way you can deal damage is through charging, and you might have some players wishing for an unmounted Paladin. Forcing a Paladin player to go mounted in order to deal some damage restricts the class' options, which is generally a bad idea when you're building (or in this case, reworking) a class. I'd suggest as a bare minimum some bonus feats, even if that means treading on the Fighter's toes. As Mando said, this is best used on a campaign where the Fighter has also upgraded a bit (either through a fix, or ditching it altogether and going Warblade, whichever suits you), so adding extra feats really shouldn't worry. The Paladin needs more options, considering they get even more choices than the Fighter would (divine feats, for example, and also devotion and exalted feats if you extend those as well). I'd also recommend upping the base Smite Evil damage, something close to 3+class level or 5+class level. Even per encounter, that means you get some very good damage, whereas at high levels you'll deal a reasonable amount of damage nonetheless.
    Hmm... some bonus feats might not go amiss, now that you mention it. I'm certainly not worried about treading on the pile-of-crap that is the PHB fighter
    What would you say about upping Smite damage to 2/level? At really low levels, it doesn't do a ton, but most things will go down with a single good greatsword smack anyway, and the damage would still relevant at higher levels. Or possibly a way to Smite on a full attack.
    The mount is iconic, and pretty much has to be in the class. I might whip up an ACF or two that trade it in, though.

    The Paladin's Divination SLA really doesn't seem to fit them. A Paladin might use the divination from someone else, but rarely will seek that divination, instead relying on his faith and his deity to deal with the unexpected. Any particular reason this SLA is in? This ability could have some explanation other than "it's cool and a Cleric does it, so why not a Paladin?"
    "Relying on his faith and his deity" is exactly what the SLA is for. It represents the paladin getting down on his knees and praying for guidance, and his god providing it.

    You should modify Shield of Loyalty a bit. As it stands, your allies need to be within 5 ft. (that's what adjacent stands for in-game) to gain the benefit, and the Shield Other benefit works only when they take hit point damage, meaning they don't get the benefit of the increased AC and saves. Both the reach AND the lack of benefits makes it a poor ability, since you don't want to force your allies to remain so close (a perfect place for a Fireball, and you absorb not only YOUR damage but also half of the damage your allies take, which sounds suspiciously as a one-hit kill). I'd go for a passive bonus of +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus to saves that increases by level (every 3 levels, maybe? You can choose to make them sacred bonuses in order to allow them to stack with other deflection and resistance bonuses), and the area of effect of the ability increases by level. That way, you'll be providing so many bonuses to your allies, the enemies will probably aim at you in order to take you down, which by extension makes your job easier.
    Extending the reach of Shield of Loyalty at higher levels isn't a bad idea. I assume you mean the scaling bonuses in addition to the damage absorption?

    Hero's Leadership, as it stands, is sorta worse than Mass Aid (a 3rd level Cleric spell). Although the amount can reach pretty high levels, on average the ability mostly works if you have over 20 Charisma. This is pretty easy, but you're expending points from your Lay on Hands to compensate, and Mass Aid offers a mild but reasonable bonus (+1 morale bonus on attack rolls and saves vs. fear). You might consider boosting this ability so that it works slightly better; a bonus to attack rolls might be a reasonable idea (you're commanding your allies to press the advantage, making you a fitting leader, and you also take advantage of the ability), thus making it far better than Mass Aid would be.
    You're absolutely right. Wow, I didn't realize that Mass Aid did the same thing but better.

    Bulwark of Faith comes, IMO, a bit TOO late. It comes later than Evasion, later than Improved Evasion, and it still does nothing for spread AoE, something you might want to explain (remember that you might be blocking the line of effect of a Fireball, but the spell's damage wraps around the obstacle, making blocking line of effect a bit pointless in that case. Lowering it from its current level to, say, level 10 or something might be worthwhile. A Hero Never Sleeps is likewise gained a bit too late, since by that moment you've probably found a way to sleep in extra-dimensional areas (not depending on mundane tents), so that vigilance is no longer needed (and exhaustion stops being a concern).
    I imagine that with a spell like Fireball, BoF would create a dead zone stretching from the paladin to the edge of the spread. But the more I look at the ability, the less I like it.
    A Hero Never Sleeps can probably be moved earlier, though in all honesty I threw it in more for flavor than anything else.

    Related to the lack of offensive abilities AND the lack of spellcasting: I find it really odd that you don't grant the paladin the ability to bless any weapon he or she wields, eventually making it Holy. A blessed weapon can be gained as early as 4th level, whereas turning any weapon into a Holy weapon can be gained at any moment after 13th level (where you would have gained the Holy Sword spell). 2d6 might not seem like much, but it eventually adds a lot of punch to your attacks, something (I still have to mention) the paladin lacks. Remember that reinforcing your offensive is definitely not a bad idea, since you'll still retain the protective focus of the class.
    Doy! Brilliant idea.

    I'd love to see more things depending on Strength and Constitution, since you claim these are your most important stats alongside Charisma. As it stands, Strength is necessary but only for your damage, while Constitution still holds the dubious benefit of adding only to Hit Points and Fortitude saves (since you no longer depend on Constitution). I can see stuff like Powered by Heroism and Death before Dishonor relying on Constitution (the former by replacing Charisma with Constitution and the latter by extending the amount of rounds you can remain alive by your Constitution modifier, which gives you a sizable buffer of heroism).
    The original paladin suffered badly from MAD, which I was trying to avoid by making everything Charisma dependent. Pretty much all melee classes need Strength to hit and deal damage, and the paladin really needs high health, what with all his abilities about absorbing damage. I'll look through and see if anything would make more sense to depend on another stat, though.

    The benefits from Perfection on Earth are still acquired far too late. The Paladin could use DR early on its career, some resistances that eventually turn into immunities, and perhaps a lesser form of spell resistance, all of which can be upgraded by that level into what they provide. Also: you're capable of gaining the Saint template without fulfilling the requirements, or you still need to qualify for them? Note that this makes following a stringent code a life-or-death decision, since the Paladin's abilities may be regained with Atonement (with time, but you're still capable of receiving the atonement benefit eventually), but the Saint template is forever lost if you screw it. You may want to be a bit more benign on that matter, where your commitment to justice makes you retain the template even if you fall short of it.
    The Saint template has specific requirements? <runs off to borrow friends BoED> so it does. No, you just have to fulfill the paladin requirements, and you get the template back if you atone.

    As you may know, I'm a bit passionate about Paladins and I tend to have a very specific view on them, so I'll ask you to excuse me if it slips on the critique; rest assured, I went mostly on the mechanics, and on ways to improve them to do your job better. As it stands, it falls a bit too close on what the Monk does, except with "free" UMD on top of it: lots of immunities and passive defenses. The flying mount (and Paladin) and the fast healing make it stand a bit higher than the core Monk, but not for much as you're going a bit too far on the defensive and a bit too lax on the offensive. Be creative on how to augment the offensive without making it a "Warblade with better defenses". The reason is because you're trying to make it distinct to a Crusader, but the latter will be a bit more consistent on both damage, defenses and buffing whereas the Paladin will have to work a lot to compare on damage and buffing (although your defenses far outrank those of the Crusader). Playing a defensive character is tricky in D&D, and having a character that only relies passive defenses to the party and some minor buffing won't really attract most people into playing the Paladin, regardless of how invincible it may seem.
    I can tell about the passionate bit Thanks for the feedback, though- it was very helpful. I probably didn't add enough damage, because I was worried about having a class that's both impossible to hurt AND dishing out tons of damage. It's entirely possible I went too far.

    I'll think about your suggestions, and try to work on incorporating a few of them.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-11-04 at 09:31 AM.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    Common sense?
    Surprisingly nonsensical at times.

    Standardisation?
    Who needs it?

    Good design principals?
    There is nothing in good design that requires that two roughly similar abilities be exactly equal in value.

    The simple logic that a perfect termal insulator should be immune to both?
    So a perfect thermal insulator will give both immunities. But something that is naturally of the cold (and thus immune to cold) or naturally of fire (and thus immune to fire) should be vulnerable to the other one.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Made some changes and added a spellcasting ACF.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    You did correctly divine my intentions. While MAD could have been avoided by changing the spellcasting to Charisma based, I've never really been a fan of paladin spellcasting. Eliminating it lets me add more powerful class features. Divine Soul is there largely to let him still get into paladin-aimed prestige classes. I'm not sure about augmenting magic item power, though...
    Most paladin-focused PrCs don't actually require you to have any kind of spellcasting ability. If you consider, say, Knight of the Iron Glacier or Shadowbane Inquisitor, those classes allow you to advance Paladin progression but don't require you to cast spells, and even if they did, they don't advance spellcasting at all so it's essentially the same.

    Now, exactly why are you opposed to Paladin spellcasting in the first place? This is a very difficult path to tread, because it causes the Paladin to enter into a variant of the Monk problem. As you know, the Monk has lots of different abilities to compensate for the lack of magic potential, but most of those abilities are rather weak. In order for the Paladin to be both distinctive to the Fighter, not subsumed at all by the Crusader and still able to cooperate in a Tier 3 environment, you need to provide abilities that are useful at every level IN every level, though not necessarily gamebreaking. Paladins getting spells was the easiest way to handle that problem, since albeit limited, the Paladin could cover such things as bypassing damage reduction, augmenting their offensive and defensive potential, and even providing assistance on some skills (mostly Ride, for mounted combat).

    I can imagine two things: one, that Paladin spellcasting is mechanically weak, but that could have been solved by augmenting the spell list, augmenting the amount of spells the class has access to (as many often do with 2/3rds casting Paladins to make them roughly equal to Psychic Warriors in terms of effectiveness), and often both at once. I don't feel that's the reason, so I'll go to the most probable; you're opposed to Paladin spellcasting because it doesn't fill your concept of Paladinhood. I don't have much to say about that reason (not everyone wants their Paladins to cast spells, some want them more like Crusaders and are happy to replace the former for the latter), but it does imply you need some serious mechanical replacements for it. Ideally, you should be capable of replacing EVERYTHING the Paladin loses by losing access to spellcasting; while you replace about 60-70% of it with Divine Soul (a very rough estimate), you still need to work with those Paladin-specific spells. Glory of the Martyr/Shield Other is covered up, and probably Holy Sword will be covered up, but what about Righteous Aura, or the many spells crafted for mounts (which, since you're killing Paladin spellcasting, can no longer exist within the game, hence they can't be made through wands or scrolls)? You definitely need to think about that in order to make the rework useful, and sometimes, adding too many abilities to one class "charges" it too much, which leads to people getting scared out of the sheer amount of abilities the class has.

    As for augmenting magic item potential: the reason I mention this is because using a wand of, say, Shield of Faith to provide a +2 bonus for 1 minute really won't cut it at 20th level. Offering, say, a +3 bonus for 10 minutes works slightly better, even if a Cleric will have a far better version. Likewise with other spells that increase with caster level; the amount of wands you'll want to use will be so limited, you might as well dispatch away their simulated spellcasting ability. That could cover for about an extra 5-10% out of the lost spellcasting ability, since you'll never emulate a Cleric through wands.

    Hmm... some bonus feats might not go amiss, now that you mention it. I'm certainly not worried about treading on the pile-of-crap that is the PHB fighter
    What would you say about upping Smite damage to 2/level? At really low levels, it doesn't do a ton, but most things will go down with a single good greatsword smack anyway, and the damage would still relevant at higher levels. Or possibly a way to Smite on a full attack.
    The mount is iconic, and pretty much has to be in the class. I might whip up an ACF or two that trade it in, though.
    Thing is, what if I want to use a longsword? Or, say, a battleaxe! Both deal 1d8 points of damage, I use them because I want to fight with a shield...there are good reasons why Smite should be interesting at first, because in comparison there are ways for the other classes to deal even more damage. Compare, say, the Smite Evil ability for the simple Punishing Stance from a Warblade; that's an extra 1d6 on top of the damage, but it applies to everyone, and the AC loss is minimal compared to the sheer damage you can deliver. Burning Blade deals even more damage, Sapphire Nightmare Blade deals a solid 1d6 extra damage and treats the opponent as flat-footed (so if you use Sneak Attack, that's even MORE damage). Shadow Blade Technique deals 1d6 cold damage if you have a very high attack bonus. That alone adds an average of 3-4 points of damage, and they can be recharged within combat, which already makes it better than smite. We can assume that the Charisma bonus to attack compensates somewhat, but if you can already hit well (good BAB, good Strength, maybe a buff), that benefit is reduced. 3+class level makes Smite good enough at early levels, perhaps not that good at latter levels (but do consider Smite damage increases on a critical hit), but good when it matters. Plus, you get some potent rider effects on the Smites later on, which is formidable. If 1 point isn't enough, 2 points still won't be enough (at least for the first level; at 2nd level you might compete with 1st level maneuvers, but then you get 2nd level maneuvers at 3rd level which compete with Smite and deliver even more effects, and so on).

    To make it easier to explain, Smite Evil has one big mitigating factor (limited only to evil creatures) which you need to compensate. Factoring the bonus to attack AND the extra damage (plus the off chance that you might land a crit, which doubles the damage dealt), a maneuver (which has none of that mitigating factors) will still beat Smite Evil any other day, and it gets worse when you can use two or three such maneuvers per encounter while the Paladin only has a single use until 5th level. That's TWO mitigating factors for Smite, which require some way to fix; of course, the best way is to deliver enough damage with one strike that compensates for the mitigating factors, OR deliver a rider effect from 1st level that can compensate for the mitigating factor. Otherwise, even getting a single Martial Study feat will deliver something that may be better than your smite, and if you choose it three more times you'll have more stuff than the Paladin could possibly cover before 10th level.

    As for making Smite a part of a full attack...just change its vocabulary. Make it a "boost", so to speak: instead of "as a standard action" make it "once per round as part of a melee attack". That way, it not only works for full attacks (you can make your smite the last attack in the routine), it can also work for Attacks of Opportunity if you wish. It can also work as part of Improved Trip (in the rare case you have access to it) or as part of an extra attack out of turn. It's mostly playing with the vocabulary.

    As for the mount...iconic as it may be, this is one point where conceding one thing allows me to explain another. As I mentioned with spellcasting, perhaps you don't consider a Paladin needs to cast spells; to me, Paladin casting a limited amount of spells is iconic while using a mount really isn't. It's a question of differences, where I don't mind the forced "spellcasting" option but I do find the forced "mounted combat" option a bad idea. Having said that, you need to cover up for the moments in which your mount won't be present, which involves any occasion in which you fight in areas where you cannot fight with your mount; in those occasions, your fighting capabilities are strongly reduced, so you'll end up with a sub-par offensive when you probably need it the most. If you fight underground or hit far too many dungeons, a mount will eventually turn into a liability. ACFs are fine, though.

    "Relying on his faith and his deity" is exactly what the SLA is for. It represents the paladin getting down on his knees and praying for guidance, and his god providing it.
    I really don't find the reason in it. I still find it comes out of the blue, because it seems like a free "ask the DM what to do", rather than something iconic for the class or archetype. I find that's best represented through roleplaying than a solid mechanical factor, since Divination is to an extent dependent on roleplaying (you depend on what the DM wants to tell you, and if s/he wants to cover up some stuff, the deity might still leave you on the blue or leave you with a riddle that's very hard to crack, which is essentially as if you had gained nothing). It's the same as the Playgrounder whose sig has the tracking thing: with Divination, you don't gain any more information that what the DM wants to tell you, regardless of how precise you are with your inquiry. Once per day means you better leave that to the Cleric, which probably has more slots. That, OR maybe you can use it as part of a scroll (it IS a 4th level spell, which means you need a CL of 7th, which means you can use the scroll without problems at 14th level, and with 85% chance of success at 9th level.

    Extending the reach of Shield of Loyalty at higher levels isn't a bad idea. I assume you mean the scaling bonuses in addition to the damage absorption?
    Of course! Basically, what I'm telling you is "since you're nixing both Shield Other and Glory of the Martyr (basically Mass Shield Other), make it better". Expanding its area makes you protect your allies even from a distance. Scaling bonuses allow you to protect them even better (more AC and better saving throws is never a bad idea), and the damage absorption remains the same, but it's still reasonable. Because of the increased bonuses to AC and saves, you're mitigating your allies' damage, which allows you to mitigate your own damage as well. At high levels, that's about the best protection you can offer.

    I imagine that with a spell like Fireball, BoF would create a dead zone stretching from the paladin to the edge of the spread. But the more I look at the ability, the less I like it.
    Can't really say much about it. At its core, the ability was basically "the paladin works as if you had total cover for area of effect abilities", because total cover blocks line of sight. Maybe it can be reworked to affect a larger area? Say, a steep cone instead of a straight line?

    Still, I do find Bulwark of Faith overlaps a bit with Hero's Shield; the two combined basically meant Shield Other + total cover, with both granting more AC, better saves (with cover offering better Reflex saves) and damage mitigation (Shield Other by absorbing damage, total cover by negating line of sight and line of effect).

    A Hero Never Sleeps can probably be moved earlier, though in all honesty I threw it in more for flavor than anything else.
    Things "thrown in for flavor" need to have something that makes them useful. This ability at 2nd level wouldn't be a bad idea, but by that level you should have something close to a Death Ward effect. Throwing the immunity too early causes you to charge up a level with far too many immunities (a bad idea), but delaying them up at latter levels makes it also a bad idea.

    As someone else mentioned to me: if you have extremely good saves, immunities are largely pointless (because you'll be virtually immune to most things). Since your saves PLUS your Charisma will probably scale faster, you'll most likely reach a point where only a natural 1 makes you fail on your saves, thus making you virtually immune.

    If you DO want to make those immunities useful, you have to place them after 5th level (so that it doesn't become a reason to dip) but at a moment when such an ability would otherwise be still useful (partly the reason why the Monk's Diamond Body and Purity of Body abilities are so weak, because they're acquired at points where poisons and diseases have already ran their course and won't be any more of a threat). You can keep immunity to fear and disease early on as legacy abilities, and probably immunity to sleep as well (because sleep stops being an issue very early on, with only a few instances of magical sleep surviving at latter levels), but any other immunity should be considered whether it's useful to have after 5th level or if it only covers empty space. An example would be Death Ward after 14th level (or even earlier, though no more early than 9th level or so) because you'll be facing energy drain and instant death effects quite a bit.

    The original paladin suffered badly from MAD, which I was trying to avoid by making everything Charisma dependent. Pretty much all melee classes need Strength to hit and deal damage, and the paladin really needs high health, what with all his abilities about absorbing damage. I'll look through and see if anything would make more sense to depend on another stat, though.
    Another reason why to make those scores useful. Strength is very hard to work with, since it mostly works for melee stuff (attack, damage, combat maneuvers, breaking stuff) which can be covered easily by someone else. Meanwhile, Constitution covers also very few things, but it's easier to work with as it works as some sort of "defensive" score (HP, Fortitude, stamina), so any ability that might work defensively CAN be left up to Constitution.

    Of the abilities that might work with Strength, the save DC of the smites is a good example. Banishing Smite ALREADY does work with Strength (as it factors into the damage dealt), but Celestial Smite might work by adding Strength to the DC as well (representing your own physical might instead of just another application of "force of personality").

    Of the abilities that might work with Constitution, as I mentioned before, Powered by Heroism and Death before Dishonor could use Constitution. This makes having a higher Con score more important, while preventing such an overload of Charisma that people won't be interested on using the other scores at all (particularly Con).
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious View Post
    2. Smite Evil still kinda sucks, so I would suggest you take a leaf from Pathfinders book and make it ignore DR as well. Also, the first part of the text says per day, rather than per encounter.
    I like the way you made it extra powerful (at higher levels) against undead and evil outsiders, so maybe just against those it should (at appropriate levels) ignore a number of points of DR up to the paladin's level, a number of points of natural armor up to the paladin's level, and have the bonus damage ignore regeneration.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Reminds me of some of the stuff I put in my own paladin rework.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    There is nothing in good design that requires that two roughly similar abilities be exactly equal in value.
    As Immune is defined like a keyword, it should apply universally. Internal consistency and ease of implementation are key to anything being considered a good design. I believe this applies in any industry and should definitely apply in an arena where rules are concerned. Anything else creates pointless arguments.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletmanalive View Post
    As Immune is defined like a keyword, it should apply universally.
    It does. There being an extra feature to certain types of immunity is independent of that, which is why vulnerability should be mentioned separately by each monster as well.

    The question is, what about cases where it isn't?
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-11-06 at 08:25 AM.
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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    After looking at the spellcasting again, I think I can put it back in without unbalancing things too much. The buffs boost his offensive power a little bit, which isn't necessarily bad, the healing spells give an alternative, and sometimes superior option to Lay on Hands, and they generally make him a bit more versatile and useful out-of-battle, which is always good. To compensate slightly, Divine Soul was dropped.

    Smite Evil now works on ANY melee attack, and adds your Charisma Modifier to the damage, to make it a bit more lethal at low levels. It still only works on one attack, but the Repeated Smiting feat lets you use a slightly less powerful Smite during a full attack, if you so desire. A Hero Never Tires and A Hero Never Sleeps were merged at 7th level, and at 14th I added a permanent Death Ward ability. I added a bit more curing potential to Saint's Touch.

    On an unrelated note, can we end the argument on Immunity to Fire/Cold? I'm satisfied with the answer, and I don't want the thread derailed.

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    Default Re: A hero is a man too stubborn to die- a 3.5 Paladin fix (PEACH)

    Quite a decent fix.
    At a glance there are only 2 major issues that I notice - both regard the Paladin's code:

    >> Honesty
    While honesty is a nobel and desired trait, it shouldn't stand in the way of a paladin to accomplish his goals (many just quests involve espionage & infiltration).

    >> Loyalty
    given a paladin should be as loyal as they ever come, it should gain resistance to charm & compulsion as it levels up.

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