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    Default Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Here are some alternate rules for masterwork and magic equipment for your D&D 3.5 game.

    Masterwork Equipment
    Adding the Masterwork quality to a weapon or armor gives it an enhancement bonus (to attack and damage for weapons; to AC and max dex for armor) and costs extra GP as follows:

    +1 - 1000gp
    +2 - 6000gp
    +3 - 13000gp
    +4 - 24000gp
    +5 - 35000gp

    For each +1 enhancement bonus, increase the Craft DC of a given weapon or armor by 4. Crafting Masterwork items requires only as much additional time over their normal counterparts as 1/10 the GP value of the enhancement bonus.

    Masterwork equipment also has a number of enchant slots equal to the enhancement bonus, for example, a +3 Longsword would have three enchant slots.

    Masterwork weapons, despite having an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, are not magic weapons and do not overcome DR/magic. Likewise, they cannot hurt incorporeal creatures.

    Masterwork armor also reduces the armor check penalty of the worn armor by an amount equal to the enhancement bonus.

    Magic Equipment
    Magical properties may be added to any masterwork weapon or armor, taking up one of the item's enchant slots for each property added, by spending an amount of gold equal to the the property's effective enhancement bonus. Magical properties may be suppressed by a Dispel Magic effect (check each property separately), or removed entirely by a Break Enchantment effect (1 casting for each property).

    A weapon or armor with one or more magical properties is considered a magic item. Any effect generated by a magic weapon property is considered a spell-like ability and is subject to Spell Resistance. The wielder of a magic weapon checks against SR using his character level as his effective caster level, or his actual caster level, whichever is higher.

    The wielder of a magic weapon checks SR only once for each property. If he successfully penetrates a creature's SR, his property always effects that creature. If he fails to penetrate a creature's SR, his property never effects that creature.

    To add a magical property to a weapon or armor a character must possess the Craft Magic Arms & Armor feat.

    There is no ceiling to the total effective enhancement bonus an item may have (typically non-Epic characters aren't allowed to have items better than +10, but that doesn't apply to these rules).

    Magical Properties
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    Energy Resistance
    Type: Armor or Shield
    Price: +1 bonus
    Create: Caster level 3, Resist Energy
    Effect: When you add this property to an armor choose a type of energy (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, Negative, Positive, etc). An item with this property grants its wearer Resistance 5 + wearer's level (max 10) against that type of energy.
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Energy Resistance, Improved
    Type: Armor or Shield
    Price: +2 bonus
    Create: Caster level 7, Resist Energy
    Effect: When you add this property to an armor choose a type of energy (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, Negative, Positive, etc). An item with this property grants its wearer Resistance 10 + wearer's level (max 20) against that type of energy.
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Energy Resistance, Greater
    Type: Armor or Shield
    Price: +3 bonus
    Create: Caster level 11, Resist Energy
    Effect: When you add this property to an armor choose a type of energy (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, Negative, Positive, etc). An item with this property grants its wearer Resistance 15 + wearer's level against that type of energy.
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Energy Immunity
    Type: Armor or Shield
    Price: +5 bonus
    Create: Caster level 15, Energy Immunity
    Effect: When you add this property to an armor choose a type of energy (Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, Negative, Positive, etc). An item with this property grants its wearer Immunity to the chosen energy type (without also inflicting any vulnerability that may normally be associated with that Immunity).
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Arrow Catching
    Type: Shield
    Price: +1 bonus
    Create: Caster level 3, Entropic Shield
    Effect: A shield with this property automatically blocks the first successful ranged attack made against the wielder each round as a free action. This property has no effect against unusual projectiles such as siege weapons or ray attacks.

    Arrow Eater
    Type: Shield
    Price: +3 bonus
    Create: Caster level 7, Protection from Arrows
    Effect: A shield with this property automatically blocks the first successful ranged attack made against the wielder by each enemy, each round, as a free action. Furthermore, anytime an enemy within Medium range (100ft + 10ft/level) makes a ranged attack, the wielder of the shield may, as a free action, force that enemy to attack him (Will negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier). This property has no effect against unusual projectiles such as siege weapons or ray attacks.

    Fortification
    Type: Armor
    Price: +3 bonus
    Create: Caster level 11, Stoneskin
    Effect: Armor with this property grants its wearer a 50% chance to avoid critical hits and precision damage (such as Skirmish, Sneak Attack, or Sudden Strike).

    Fortification, Greater
    Type: Armor
    Price: +5 bonus
    Create: Caster level 15, Iron Body
    Effect: Armor with this property grants its wearer Immunity to critical hits and precision damage (such as Skirmish, Sneak Attack, or Sudden Strike).

    Ghost Touch
    Type: Any
    Price: +1 bonus
    Create: Caster level 3, Bless
    Effect: An item with this property may be picked up, held, worn, and/or wielded by incorporeal or ethereal creatures. Ghost Touch equipment is equally effective against incorporeal and corporeal creatures, and ethereal and material creatures. A Ghost Touch item may pass harmlessly through solid objects or corporeal creatures at its wearer/wielder's whim.

    A weapon with this property suffers no chance to miss incorporeal creatures and extends into the ethereal plane like a force effect.

    Armor or shields with this property apply their bonus to AC against the attacks of incorporeal or ethereal creatures, and also against incorporeal touch attacks.

    Spell Resistance
    Type: Armor
    Price: +1 bonus
    Create: Caster level 3, Sanctuary
    Effect: Armor with this property grants its wearer SR 12 + 1/2 level.

    Spell Resistance, Improved
    Type: Armor
    Price: +3 bonus
    Create: Caster level 9, Spell Resistance
    Effect: Armor with this property grants its wearer SR 15 + level.

    Spell Immunity
    Type: Armor
    Price +5 bonus
    Create: Caster level 17, Greater Spell Immunity
    Effect: Armor with this property grants its wearer unconditional Spell Immunity. Unlike Spell Resistance, this Spell Immunity does interfere with the wearer's own spells, items, and abilities. This Immunity does not apply to the armor itself or its properties (including this property).

    Blinding
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +2 bonus
    Create: Caster level 7, Blindness/Deafness
    Effect: A weapon with this property can Blind creatures its wielder hits with an attack1 (Fort negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier) for 5 rounds.

    Chromatic Surge
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +1 bonus
    Create: Caster level 3, Lesser Energy SurgePHB2
    Effect: When you add this property to a weapon choose Cold, Electricity, or Fire. A weapon with this property deals 1d6 additional damage of the chosen type of energy, +1 per wielder level (max 1d6+5).
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Chromatic Surge, Improved
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +2 bonus
    Create: Caster level 7, Energy SurgePHB2
    Effect: When you add this property to a weapon choose Cold, Electricity, or Fire. A weapon with this property deals 2d6 additional damage of the chosen type of energy, +1 per wielder level (max 2d6+10).
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Chromatic Surge, Greater
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +3 bonus
    Create: Caster level 13, Greater Energy SurgePHB2
    Effect: When you add this property to a weapon choose Cold, Electricity, or Fire. A weapon with this property deals 3d6 additional damage of the chosen type of energy, +1 per wielder level.
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Ragnarok
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +5 bonus
    Create: Caster level 17, Disintegrate
    Effect: When you add this property to a weapon choose Cold, Electricity, or Fire. The wielder of a weapon with this property ignores Resistance to the chosen energy type up to a value equal to his level and treats Immunity to the chosen energy type as Resistance 35. Additionally, the weapon deals 4d6 additional damage of the chosen type of energy, +1 per wielder level.
    Special: This property may be added to an item more than once. Each time it is added beyond the first, choose a new energy type.

    Defending
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +1 bonus
    Create: Caster level 3, Shield of Faith
    Effect: A weapon with this property adds its enhancement bonus to AC as a Dodge bonus. This bonus applies even when the wielder is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, but only applies while the weapon is in hand. This property may only be added to a light or one-handed melee weapon.

    Disruption
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +4 bonus
    Create: Caster level 13, Disrupting Weapon
    Effect: A weapon with this property may destroy non-living creatures its wielder hits with an attack1 (Will negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier). Even on a successful save the struck creature is dealt 2d6 additional damage, +1 per wielder level (max 2d6+10).

    Thundering
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +2 bonus
    Create: Caster level 7, Sound Burst
    Effect: A weapon with this property may Deafen creatures its wielder hits with an attack1 (Fort negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier) for 5 rounds. Even on a successful save the struck creature is dealt 1d6 additional sonic damage, +1 per wielder level (max 1d6+5).

    Forceful
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +2 bonus
    Create: Caster level 9, Battering RamSC
    Effect: A weapon with this property may cause creatures its wielder hits with an attack1 to be Blown Away (Fort negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier). Even on a successful save the struck creature is dealt 1d6 additional force damage, +1 per wielder level (max 1d6+5).

    Venomous
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +2 bonus
    Create: Caster level 11, Poison
    Effect: A weapon with this property may Poison creatures its wielder hits with an attack1 (Fort negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier) causing 1d6 initial Strength damage and 1d6 secondary Constitution damage. Even on a successful save the struck creature is dealt 1d6 additional acid damage, +1 per wielder level (max 1d6+5). A creature cannot be Poisoned by this property more than once at a time.

    Sleepstriking
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +2 bonus
    Create: Caster level 9, Deep Slumber
    Effect: A weapon with this property may Fatigue creatures its wielder hits with an attack1 (Will negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier) for 1 round. A Fatigued creature that fails this save is Exhausted for 1 round. An Exhausted creature that fails this save falls asleep as the Sleep spell (no HD limit) for 1 minute per wielder level.

    Stunning
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +3 bonus
    Create: Caster level 13, Symbol of Stunning
    Effect: A weapon with this property may Stun creatures its wielder hits with an attack1 (Will negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier) for 1 round.

    Deathstroke
    Type: Weapon
    Price: +5 bonus
    Create: Caster level 17, Finger of Death
    Effect: A weapon with this property may instantly slay any living creature its wielder hits with an attack1 (Fort negates, DC 10 + 1/2 wielder level + wielder's Charisma modifier). This is a Death attack. Even on a successful save the struck creature is dealt 3d6 additional negative energy damage, +1 per wielder level.

    1 - The attack must deal at least 1 hit point damage to trigger a saving throw against the property's effect.


    New Spells
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    Enhance Armor
    (Replaces Magic Vestment)
    Transmutation
    Level: Clr 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1, War 1
    Casting Time: 1 swift action
    Range: Touch
    Target: 1 suit or armor, or 1 shield
    Duration: 1 minute
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    Enhance Armor gives an armor or shield a +1 enhancement bonus to AC and maximum Dexterity bonus. This bonus increases by 1 at caster level 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th. For every point of enhancement bonus gained the armor or shield's armor check penalty is also reduced by 1.

    This does not stack with a masterwork armor or shield's enhancement bonus, nor does it grant the targeted armor or shield enchant slots.

    An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

    Enhance Weapon
    (Replaces Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon)
    Transmutation
    Level: Clr 1, Dru 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1, War 2 (bump Spiritual Weapon to War 3)
    Components: V, S, DF
    Casting Time: 1 swift action
    Range: Touch
    Target: 1 weapon, or up to 50 projectiles
    Duration: 1 minute
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    Enhance Weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by 1 at caster level 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th.

    This does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s enhancement bonus, nor does it grant the targeted weapon enchant slots.

    Alternatively, you can affect as many as fifty arrows, bolts, or bullets. The projectiles must be of the same kind, and they have to be together (in the same quiver or other container). Projectiles, but not thrown weapons, lose their transmutation when used. (Treat shuriken as projectiles, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.)

    You may use this spell on both natural weapons and manufactured weapons.

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    Monster Hunting

    A
    Aboleth Mucus, Adamantite, Admixture Core, Amber, Anarchic Core, Angel Feather, Angelfire, Ankheg Egg, Animus Corpus, Astral Essence, Automata Gear, Axiom Core

    B
    Balefire, Balor Nimbus, Beast Claw, Beast Fang, Beast Flesh, Beast Pelt, Black Fang, Black Vulcan

    C
    Chalcedony, Concussive Force, Copper Ore, Corrosive Jelly, Crocodile Tears

    D
    Demon Fang, Demon Heart, Devil Claw, Devil Heart, Dragon Bile, Dragon Blood, Dragon Bone, Dragon Claw, Dragon Fang, Dragon Flesh, Dragon Heart, Dragonscale, Dragon Skull, Dragon Wing, Dryad Bark, Dryad Blossom

    E
    Ectoplasm, Ether

    F
    Fardeep Filth, Fish Scales, Flare Core, Frost Core

    G
    Galvanic Core, Giant's Tooth, Glacial Core, Gold Ore, Golden Ice, Gorgon's Eye

    H
    Hag Eye, Hard Case, Hoarfrost

    I
    Infernal Ash, Iron Ore

    K
    Kraken Shell

    L
    Lifebolt, Lizardskin

    M
    Magewright Core, Magical Clay, Mithril Ore, Momento Mori

    N
    Necrotic Bile, Necrotic Claw, Necrotic Flesh, Nectar, Nymph's Flesh, Nymph's Heart

    O
    Ocean's Core, Orichalcon

    P
    Phoenix Pinion, Phylactery, Plasma Core, Platinum Ore, Poison Fang

    R
    Radiant Core, Rainbow Scales, Royal Jelly

    S
    Screechbox, Silver Ore, Slime Jelly, Soft Stone, Solar Corona, Sonic Boom, Sorcerer's Stone, Stardust, Storm Core

    T
    Tentacle, Terra Core

    U
    Umbral Core, Unicorn Horn

    V
    Vampire Fang, Vampire Wing

    W
    Weretooth

    Z
    Zephyr Core, Zombie Brain

    Last edited by Ziegander; 2011-11-11 at 12:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Masterwork weapons, despite having an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, do not overcome DR/magic. Likewise, they cannot hurt incorporeal creatures.
    I'm not entirely comfortable with this part. If you remove the part about DR and maybe add a minimum threshold for hitting the incorporeal, I think it would function a lot better — as is, this system provides a limited way to avoid WBL and the magic marts for both the DM and the players without the use of Crafting feats. I like that function, and I feel there's no need to penalize it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Masterwork armor also reduces the armor check penalty of the worn armor by an amount equal to the enhancement bonus.
    Good call. Maybe 1/2 the bonus to maximum dexterity bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Any effect generated by a magic weapon property is considered a spell-like ability and is subject to Spell Resistance. The wielder of a magic weapon checks against SR using his level as his effective caster level, or his actual caster level, whichever is highest.
    This is going to slow down gameplay. A lot. And it makes most magic properties on weapons less useful to fighters than they are to gishes, so you might want to change it from "caster level" to "character level."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    To add a magical property to a weapon or armor a character must possess the Craft Magic Arms & Armor feat.
    I'm tempted to say this should go, and be replaced with a higher echelon of the Craft skill. You're limiting magic items pretty extensively like this, so you don't necessarily have to worry about associated breakage problems.

    Individual magic properties look mostly good, although the ones with saves are still going to cause gameplay slowdown.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    I'm not entirely comfortable with this part. If you remove the part about DR and maybe add a minimum threshold for hitting the incorporeal, I think it would function a lot better — as is, this system provides a limited way to avoid WBL and the magic marts for both the DM and the players without the use of Crafting feats. I like that function, and I feel there's no need to penalize it.
    I'm not penalizing anything. In the existing rules non-magical weapons can't harm incorporeals. This doesn't change that, but it does make non-magical weapons more effective across the board.

    Maybe 1/2 the bonus to maximum dexterity bonus?
    The alternate rules here already add the full enhancement bonus to the max dex bonus. Are you saying that you think that's too much?

    This is going to slow down gameplay. A lot.
    Understandably, but it feels only fair.

    And it makes most magic properties on weapons less useful to fighters than they are to gishes, so you might want to change it from "caster level" to "character level."
    It was always character level or caster level, but it should be more clear now (I hope).

    I'm tempted to say this should go, and be replaced with a higher echelon of the Craft skill. You're limiting magic items pretty extensively like this, so you don't necessarily have to worry about associated breakage problems.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about here, to be honest. Again, crafting magic items always require the Item Creation feats before, this isn't a new limitation.

    Individual magic properties look mostly good, although the ones with saves are still going to cause gameplay slowdown.
    Sure, sure, but they still function much better than a "when you crit [...]" design would.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I'm not penalizing anything. In the existing rules non-magical weapons can't harm incorporeals. This doesn't change that, but it does make non-magical weapons more effective across the board.
    This is true, and I was a little unclear: I kind of think you should change that. At the very least, I feel this should overcome magic DR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    The alternate rules here already add the full enhancement bonus to the max dex bonus. Are you saying that you think that's too much?
    No, I just missed that part. Carry on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Understandably, but it feels only fair.
    Not sure it does, actually. An attack already has to pass AC, and now it also has to pass SR to get its full effects? That feels like hitting melee with the nerfbat, to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    It was always character level or caster level, but it should be more clear now (I hope).
    It is clear now, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I'm not sure what you're talking about here, to be honest. Again, crafting magic items always require the Item Creation feats before, this isn't a new limitation.
    I'm suggesting that you may want to remove the need for a feat, at least for weapons and armor, and bring it under the umbrella of craft checks. Since you're creating new enchantments, you don't have to worry about breakage potential therein.
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2011-11-07 at 07:29 AM.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by gkathellar View Post
    This is true, and I was a little unclear: I kind of think you should change that. At the very least, I feel this should overcome magic DR.
    I'd rather not, personally.

    Not sure it does, actually. An attack already has to pass AC, and now it also has to pass SR to get its full effects? That feels like hitting melee with the nerfbat, to me.
    A magic sword that adds magical effects to its wielder's attacks has to pass SR to afflict creatures with said magical effects, yes. That only makes sense to me. Yes, now your Flaming Longsword has to check against SR to deal the extra fire damage. Of course, now your Flaming Longsword costs 2000gp instead of 8000 and deals 1d6+5 fire damage instead of 1d6, so I think it evens out.

    Since you're creating new enchantments, you don't have to worry about breakage potential therein.
    Again... I don't really know what you're talking about here. For now, I'd rather not allow non-casters to craft overtly magical weapons and armor.

    Ideally, a system more like FFXd20's item creation would be in place, allowing characters to use magic/alchemical items obtained from enemies (bomb cores, antarctic winds, electro marbles, etc) to craft magic items, but D&D doesn't work like that.
    Last edited by Ziegander; 2011-11-07 at 07:38 AM.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    This looks interesting. Also, now every melee is going to want expert followers. Enough aid anothers and the swords wil just fly out. As for the enhancements, I could see boosting the power. They need to beat SR, and most of them need a saveing throw. So more like 1/2 charicter level d6+1/level
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Greater fortification - I'm pretty sure it's little to strong. Make it grand the wearer a 75% chance to avoid critical hit and precision damage.
    I also believe you should step up the caster level requirements for improved and greater Chromatic Surge to (at least) respectively 7th and 11th level.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Energy Immunity should probably use the Energy Immunity spell (Spell Compendium 80).

    I appreciate that you've given Defending a named bonus, though I think it would be better as a Competence bonus than a Shield bonus, due to a) it provides a new nerf where Animated was for shields, which need no nerfing and b) you don't have to provide an exception to make sure it applies to touch AC, any AC bonus that isn't Armor, Shield or Natural Armor by default applies to touch.

    Does Sleepstriking have a HD limit, as it references the Sleep spell, which naturally has one. I'm thinking you probably didn't, since you reference Deep Slumber for creating it.

    Otherwise, seems a bit more functional, though I'm not sure how well Ragnarok will work, since the reducing Immunity to High Resistance is still likely not to hurt the target except somewhere in Epic levels. Not sure about basing all save DCs off of Cha is necessarily the best route, either, as that'll add MAD to classes that don't need it and tend to favor certain classes that already have Cha as a main stat. I appreciate the saves advancing so they stay relevant or even become relevant in the first place, I'd just revert to something like Con or give a choice about the stat to use.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiel View Post
    Greater fortification - I'm pretty sure it's little to strong. Make it grand the wearer a 75% chance to avoid critical hit and precision damage.
    Greater Fortification normally grants immunity rather than 75% resistance. I'm not interested in nerfing the property.

    I also believe you should step up the caster level requirements for improved and greater Chromatic Surge to (at least) respectively 7th and 11th level.
    7th and 13th is when Desert Wind gains its higher level maneuvers that add an equivalent amount of fire damage. I'll go ahead and change the CL for now to those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Energy Immunity should probably use the Energy Immunity spell (Spell Compendium 80).
    Good point.

    I appreciate that you've given Defending a named bonus, though I think it would be better as a Competence bonus than a Shield bonus[...]
    I was unsure about this one myself. I never really liked that I made it a Shield bonus when it was a magical property. I'll change it to a Dodge bonus (even though that sounds stupid at least it allows a dual-wielder to have two Defending weapons and get a respectable AC boost from it).

    Does Sleepstriking have a HD limit, as it references the Sleep spell, which naturally has one. I'm thinking you probably didn't, since you reference Deep Slumber for creating it.
    It shouldn't have an HD limit, no. I'll clarify.

    Otherwise, seems a bit more functional, though I'm not sure how well Ragnarok will work, since the reducing Immunity to High Resistance is still likely not to hurt the target except somewhere in Epic levels.
    I'm going to up the CL requirement on this and change the functionality some. It should be much more worth it when I finish.

    Not sure about basing all save DCs off of Cha is necessarily the best route, either, as that'll add MAD to classes that don't need it and tend to favor certain classes that already have Cha as a main stat. I appreciate the saves advancing so they stay relevant or even become relevant in the first place, I'd just revert to something like Con or give a choice about the stat to use.
    I chose Charisma as the "item stat" so as to make it less of a dump stat. It's still not completely necessary for meleers of course, since they can spam attacks and force a failed save in that way, but if it gives a boost to classes like Marshal, then I don't see a big problem. Changing it to Con would make it "too easy" to boost the save DCs, I feel.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    I was unsure about this one myself. I never really liked that I made it a Shield bonus when it was a magical property. I'll change it to a Dodge bonus (even though that sounds stupid at least it allows a dual-wielder to have two Defending weapons and get a respectable AC boost from it).
    The problem with making it a dodge bonus is that it runs into the same problem the old Defending had, as you can just stack Defending weapons with Armor Spikes, Shield Spikes, the Shield itself, the weapon, Braid Blades, etc into a stupid amount of AC. There's also the light nitpick that Dodge bonuses are never supposed to be granted by spells or magic items precisely because Dodge bonuses stack. While its nice and all to support TWFers, reopening that can of worms just leads to problems and exploits.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    The problem with making it a dodge bonus is that it runs into the same problem the old Defending had, as you can just stack Defending weapons with Armor Spikes, Shield Spikes, the Shield itself, the weapon, Braid Blades, etc into a stupid amount of AC. There's also the light nitpick that Dodge bonuses are never supposed to be granted by spells or magic items precisely because Dodge bonuses stack. While its nice and all to support TWFers, reopening that can of worms just leads to problems and exploits.
    How did that exploit work again? I know that it exists, but I've forgotten the functionality of it. How were they getting cheap +5's on several different items all over their body?

    That reminds me. I need new forms of Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment to use with these rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    How did that exploit work again? I know that it exists, but I've forgotten the functionality of it. How were they getting cheap +5's on several different items all over their body?

    That reminds me. I need new forms of Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment to use with these rules.
    Chain Spell and Greater Magic Weapon, buff CL, suddenly lots of bonuses on everything.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Chain Spell and Greater Magic Weapon, buff CL, suddenly lots of bonuses on everything.
    And it's not exactly an exploit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    And it's not exactly an exploit.
    Didn't say it was, since its all right there, it's just poorly designed that the bonus is unnamed and stacks with other instances.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Total magic immunity on armor is definitely a needed option, but I'd suggest that such an immunity should apply even against personal-range spells cast by the wearer, and should persist for 1 minute after the armor is removed. Otherwise, such armor becomes essentially an item-based cheater of mystra for any class, and allows a variety of exploits around using called armor and other tricks to don or remove the armor as a swift or free action.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    is this true immunity to magic, or golem level immunity to magic (infinite spell resistance). what I'm asking is, can someone wearing this armor walk through a wall of force?

    also, is this system replacing the old weapon/armor system, or supplementing it with new options? personally, i think something like this should be a replacement.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar2 View Post
    is this true immunity to magic, or golem level immunity to magic (infinite spell resistance). what I'm asking is, can someone wearing this armor walk through a wall of force?
    It's golem style immunity. If you follow the link it explains.

    also, is this system replacing the old weapon/armor system, or supplementing it with new options? personally, i think something like this should be a replacement.
    Definitely a full replacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Total magic immunity on armor is definitely a needed option, but I'd suggest that such an immunity should apply even against personal-range spells cast by the wearer, and should persist for 1 minute after the armor is removed. Otherwise, such armor becomes essentially an item-based cheater of mystra for any class, and allows a variety of exploits around using called armor and other tricks to don or remove the armor as a swift or free action.
    I'm not sure I understand your concern. You're afraid spellcasters will gain access to a new option for gaining and dodging spell immunity? I'm afraid I don't know what exploits you're talking about.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    As you said, magic immunity is simply unbeatable spell resistance. From the DMG, "A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities." On golems, magic immunity is a tolerable fair power because golems are simple, unsophisticated combatants. However, a character in magic-immune armor is free to buff itself via spells, spell-like abilities, and items that create spell effects, while remaining immune to virtually all debuffs and magical action-denial strategies. I judge that kind of lop-sided treatment to be undesirable. If you remove the normal ability to ignore your own spell resistance, you do little to no harm to martial characters, but place a significant limit on what a full caster can do in this armor. Which I judge to be a good thing.

    If a player acquires the ability to get in and our of his magic-immune gear without burning actions, then he can, for example, become targetable by allied spells, receive from an ally who readies to cast healing, then restore his immunity, all without becoming vulnerable to enemy spellcasting. Essentially, it would become possible to gain the benefits of magic immunity while mitigating or avoiding its drawbacks.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2011-11-08 at 01:30 PM.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    To be fair, no-sr spells can be used offensively too....
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Greater Fortification normally grants immunity rather than 75% resistance. I'm not interested in nerfing the property.
    In pathfinder Fortification has 3 tiers and grants respectively 25, 50 and 75% chance for normal damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    From the DMG, "A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities."
    Huh. That's lame. I guess I'll have to subvert that.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    To be fair, no-sr spells can be used offensively too....
    And IIRC, Doc has demonstrated already the shenanigans possible when one places a full caster in an iron golem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    And IIRC, Doc has demonstrated already the shenanigans possible when one places a full caster in an iron golem.
    It was a Stone Golem, actually, due to the specific exception of Stone to Flesh opening them up for the Sandwich Trick that ensued but otherwise, it was a neat build. I helped a bit with it.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    Changing it to Con would make it "too easy" to boost the save DCs, I feel.
    Why not the character's choice of mental stat then? I've never played a character in my life who didn't have at least one good mental stat.

    EDIT:
    Allows for three types of flavour for the way you work it too, one fighter may use force of personality whilst another uses careful introspection. Just a thought
    Last edited by Veklim; 2011-11-10 at 09:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
    Why not the character's choice of mental stat then? I've never played a character in my life who didn't have at least one good mental stat.
    Like I said, I chose Charisma because it's such a dump stat. Int and Wis have their uses, even for straight melee fighters, but aside from Imperious Command, Cha does nothing worthwhile.

    EDIT: @Cieyrin, I should have the Defending property fixed now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    EDIT: @Cieyrin, I should have the Defending property fixed now.
    Appears to have the same problems yet, since Dodge bonuses still natively stack, armor and shield spikes are light weapons, plus the random other weapons you have that you can use to give yourself stupid AC for a small investment. What needs to be done is to change the bonus type to one that doesn't natively stack. Hence why I suggested Competence, being the one that makes the most sense (since its the bonus type that literally tells you how to do things so that you're better at it, in this case where to put the weapon to best defend against attack), can be granted by magic (Dodge bonuses cannot, or at least aren't supposed to) and doesn't conflict with other common AC bonus types (so if you want to make a defensive build, you don't have to deal with conflicting items providing the same bonus type). You also don't have to make exceptions for it like shield and dodge have required.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Appears to have the same problems yet, since Dodge bonuses still natively stack, armor and shield spikes are light weapons, plus the random other weapons you have that you can use to give yourself stupid AC for a small investment.
    The dodge bonus only applies while you are holding the weapon, so armor spikes is out and so are your "random other weapons." Shield spikes and a one-handed weapon can stack, sure. And, actually, I'm not sure I even want that restriction. How is 36,000gp for +5 stacking AC a small investment?
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    The dodge bonus only applies while you are holding the weapon, so armor spikes is out and so are your "random other weapons." Shield spikes and a one-handed weapon can stack, sure. And, actually, I'm not sure I even want that restriction. How is 36,000gp for +5 stacking AC a small investment?
    Alright, so I missed the "in hand" bit. Subtle fix is subtle.

    As for 'small investment,' you have the same tools to make it work cheaply, since all you need for defending is a +1 masterwork weapon, so its 2k a weapon. Enhance Weapon gets you the bonus you need, so 4k for +10 AC is a bargain. Invest in CL 20 Oils of Enhance Weapon or a Wand of Chain Enhance Weapon (CL 20) or just poke your local wizard and hand him a Pearl of Power (1st level) to buff your stuff with, which is now cheaper than it was, since they're 1st level, rather than 3rd, spells. Then you have your wizard work his way up with CL boosts and so on and so forth.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    As for 'small investment,' you have the same tools to make it work cheaply, since all you need for defending is a +1 masterwork weapon, so its 2k a weapon. Enhance Weapon gets you the bonus you need, so 4k for +10 AC is a bargain.
    Except Enhance Weapon only lasts 1 minute, so the cost of maintaining a +10 AC boost will add up surprisingly fast. Add, you still have to sacrifice offense for defense if that's what you want to do, because you'll be dual-wielding two +2 equivalent weapons for a dubiously cheap +10 to AC when you could be dual wielding +20 equivalent weapons or so.
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    Default Re: Masterwork and Magic Arms & Armor That Don't Make Me Cry Myself to Sleep at Night

    I found this extremely pragmatic - it's simple and it would work extremely well. Really nice for martial characters too; letting them buff up their weapons without needing a caster. Next campaign I run, I plan to use it as a houserule.

    Quick questions - once a masterwork/magical weapon has been created, can additional enhancements be bought at a later date? Would it be possible for this to integrate with (or perhaps replace) legacy items?

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