Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Tome]

I recently started playing Warhammer 40k and choose Grey Knights as my army. I only played four 500 points games so far which I all lost, but I've heard that's because Grey Knights are crap at low points and it still was a good way to learn the basics of the game.

Now I've bought enough stuff for a 2000 points army and will probably play some games tomorrow.

Sure, though I'd advise against jumping straight from 500 to 2000 points. It's a big difference.

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HQ
--Lord Kaldor Draigo {I really like that one, will use him even though he's pretty expensive}
--Inquisitor Coteaz

This is a terrible idea. Draigo and Coteaz each unlocks a different unit as troops. The only reason to do this is if you plan to take lots of them, so you take one or the other and then build your army around them. Hence, each one should only be taken in an army dedicated to them.

Whatever you do, don't take both of them. If you do, you're paying points for an ability you're not even using - particularly with Coteaz.

The Draigo build is referred to as Draigowing, and normally consists of Draigo+two units of Paladins+support units. As most of your points are tied up in only two units, it can be very unforgiving. Draigo is at least pretty strong on his own merits, though usually far to expensive.

Coteaz, on the other hand, is only really good for his ability to take Henchmen as troops. Your list has no Henchmen whatsoever. Why are you taking this guy?

Elite
--Venerable Dreadnought
-Assault Cannon
-Psybolt ammunition
--Vindicare Assassin

Any particular reason for the dreadnought to be Venerable? If not, I'd downgrade that to save some points (don't worry too much about the different models, they're similar enough that only the truly pedantic will make a fuss). Also, an Assault Cannon with Psybolt Ammunition is exactly the same as a Psycannon, which you can get much cheaper on your regular troops. What you can't get on regular troops is anything with more than a 24" range. Autocannons have a 48" range, lots of shots and are very accurate thanks to Twin-Linking. They can also kill vehicles very effectively once you give them Psybolt Ammo to make them S8. Having two sets of Autocannons and Psybolt ammo is a Dreadnought set-up sometimes referred to as a Psyrifleman (Rifleman in normal armies that don't have Psybolt ammo) and is very, very good.

Vindicare Assassins, on the other hand, are just fine. A bit fragile, but very deadly. Make sure you understand their rules properly.

Troops
--Paladin Squad (10 Paladins)
-Apothecary
-Psycannons (4)
-Brotherhood Banner
-Nemesis force halberds (9) {I heard that mixing weapons is rather good but I really like the halberds}
-Psybolt ammunition
--Strike Squad
-Psycannon

Dedicated Transports
--Razorback
--Razorback

Paladin Squad is good - it's what you're taking Draigo for after all. The different weapons thing is for doing what's called Musical Wounds, which has to do with exploiting the wound allocation rules (which are pretty complex) to make sure the unit can fight at full strength for longer. You generally want at least one high-strength weapon like a hammer in an assault unit, otherwise they can be tied up by Walker units the entire game, and you generally want a few swords to boost their saves, but compared to the rest of your list? Perfectly fine as it is.

The Strike Squad... how many models are in this unit? Is it's 10 then they can have another Psycannon. At which point they'll probably be shooting fairly often, so give them Psybolt ammo as well. Their basic Storm Bolters, when upgraded with Psybolts, can be very powerful in decent numbers. If they're just five models there to ride around in a Razorback, then why bother with the Psycannon?

Also, which units are the Razorbacks from? From how they're placed in your list, I'd assume they're for your troops, but Paladins can't ride in Razorbacks, let alone take them as transports. And how are they equipped? Razorbacks, by default, aren't very good, you need to upgrade their weapons.

Fast Attack
--Stormraven Gunship
-Twin-linked multi-melta
-Twin-linked lascannons
-Teleport homer

Fine, but on it's own it's going to draw most of the enemy's anti-tank and thus die pretty quickly. Which is bad, considering how expensive Stormravens are. You usually want at least two if you're taking one.

Also, you mentioned deepstriking your Paladins? If so, why are you taking a Stormraven? You need something to transport in it. If it's to get that Teleport Homer into the enemy lines then you're paying far too many points for that. I'd advise taking some Servo-Skulls on a cheap Inquisitor/Techmarine instead.

Heavy Support
--Purgation Squad
-Incinerator
-Nemesis force halberds (3)
-Nemesis Daemon hammer
-Teleport homer

...

Why? Dear Him on Terra, why?

Purgation Squads are your heavy weapons guys. Their psychic power is about shooting and they can take up to four of them in a five man squad. They do not want to be in assault. No, not even for the Teleport Homer, I have no idea what they were smoking when they gave these guys the option for one. They're only as good as Strike Squads at it - at best - but are more expensive than they are to account for their Astral Aim and increased availability of Heavy Weapons. If that's what you want, either take an Inquisitor with Servo-Skulls or use a Librarian with a Homer and attach him to a unit that actually wants to be near the enemy.

Also, the special close combat weapons are generally not worth the points on power armoured GKs. A possible exception is Purifiers, who get them cheaper. Terminators (and Paladins) get everything but the Falchions for free.

I want to teleport the paladin squad close to the enemies. Kaldor will sit in the Stormraven so he can use Psychic Communion.

You want to have Kaldor, an extremely expensive, extremely powerful assault character, sit in the back doing nothing put use a psychic power? One that You can get on virtually every other HQ in your army? Including the relatively cheap Inquisitors?

Do I really have to spell out how bad an idea this is?

Okay, my summary? You seem to be pretty enamoured with the idea of deep-striking your Paladins. You have Teleport Homers in there to let you do this. Problem is, Grey Knights only have the option for Teleport Homers on units that shouldn't be taking them. Purgation squads are for shooting. Stormravens are too expensive unless transporting an assault unit, and then you might as well just transport everyone in them because you need at least two to make sure they make it there. Librarians can kind of work. Kind of, if you attach them to a unit that can both reach enemy lines fast enough and survive whatever gets thrown at them. But they can take Servo-skulls, which can do the job with much less risk.

In fact, Servo-Skulls are much better for Grey Knights than Teleport Homers all round. And they can be taken on cheap, generic Inquisitors, who can also use Psychic Communion. Coteaz does exactly nothing for you, switch him for a generic Inquisitor with Psychic Communion and three Servo-Skulls. You now have someone how can take over over Psychic Communion duties from Draigo (or better yet, have them use it together until Draigo gets into combat) AND replaces all those Teleport Homers. All for 64 points, plus any additional Wargear you give them.

The list itself is pretty badly structured as well. Cheesegear has links to some guides on that which you might want to look at.

EDIT Man, do I get wordy at this time of night/morning. I think Cheesegear covered most of the same points and was far more concise.

[Renegade Paladin]

Anyway, wait for Renegade Paladin to show up. He'll know what to do.

You have more confidence in me than I do. My win record is a bit abysmal to be giving other people advice, I think, but since you've talked me up so much I'll take a shot.

Okay, here we go.

List 1:

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Company Command Squad: Lascannon, 2 Grenade Launchers, Master of Ordinance - 110 points
Platoon Command Squad: 4 Flamers, Dedicated Transport - 105 points
2 identical Infantry squads: Autocannon, Grenade Launcher - 130 points total
Veteran Squad: 3x meltas, dedicated transport - 155 points

Comes out to 500 points exactly (Master of Ordinance was added to bring it there); PCS and Veteran to be used offensively to grab objectives while the CCS sits back with the infantry and shoots. Considering dropping the MoO and some grenade launchers to get a scout sentinel (the model's free with the box), making it look more like list 2.

The Master of Ordnance is not worth it at this points level. His shot always scatters, so he generally comes into his own against horde armies at higher points values, where he's bound to scatter onto something. As for the rest of the squad, if you're going to be footslogging a command squad, consider camo cloaks.

I'm going to differ with Cheesegear on the flamers for the platoon command squad. They can take four of them (or three and a heavy flamer if you want) and with only two infantry squads, the company command can take care of the orders. Meanwhile, if the platoon command is near the meltavets, they can cover each other from the respective threats they're optimized against, and if the vets get de-meched (which they absolutely will; no one wants the meltaguns to be mobile and they'll kill that Chimera ASAP), they have a source of orders nearby. Back in my early days playing when I ran pure veterans (and thus didn't have platoon command squads) and didn't have a Hellhound, I ran a vet squad with two flamers and a heavy flamer in a Chimera (with two heavy flamers) and used it as a poor man's Hellhound. They roasted a squad of Black Templar Terminators alive in their armor once, and though they're mostly retired now, they have a special place in my mini case for that.

I dunno about not mixing grenade launchers with autocannons. For Rhino-chassis vehicles that's actually fairly brutal; krak grenades can still penetrate AV11. I rarely use grenade launchers anymore (though I have six or seven models armed with them) because my metagame is almost entirely composed of Marines, against which they're not so great. But they're not bad weapons by any means; they're just not how to reliably deal with power armor.

Nothing to say about meltavets. I use 'em, and so does almost every competitive Guard player I've ever met or heard about. They're good. They might be overkill in 500 points, but then again in 500 I field two Russ battle tanks, so they might not.

List 2:

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Company Command Squad: Missile Launcher, 2 Sniper Rifles - 75 points
Platoon Command Squad: 4 Flamers, Dedicated Transport - 105 points
2 identical infantry squads: Autocannon - 120 points total
Veteran Squad: 3x melta, dedicated transport - 155 points
Scout Sentinel: Autocannon, Smoke Launchers - 45 points

Once again comes out to 500 exactly, the smoke launchers on the sentinel were free. As you can see the two lists are pretty similar, I have a good idea of how I want to play - I just don't know what the best setup is for playing that way (a hybrid force with mechanized offense and infantry defense). If there's anything major I've overlooked, please let me know.

Use sniper rifles in quantity or not at all, and preferably in conjunction with psyker battle squads so you can make the most of Pinning. They're good against monstrous creatures, but so are lascannons. I personally don't use Sentinels, but that's an aesthetic choice to do with not liking walker vehicles (I play Apocalypse and don't use Titans either) rather than a gameplay-based decision. Apart from that, what I said above applies here.

At what point should I add artillery? For smaller games, are mortars functional enough to use as artillery-lite? Should I just skip the artillery and go right for tanks? That sort of thing. Also, in regards to painting: I think I'm going to go with a pretty typical Cadian paint scheme, but would it look horrible if I used purple trim to denote veterans or the like? I like purple but I don't think painting my whole force that color would be a great idea (unless I'm feeling sneaky. . . ) Thanks for putting up with the wall of text :)

As Cheesegear said, in gameplay terms Guard doesn't have artillery, but I know what you mean. I call it artillery too, because they're self-propelled guns, not tanks (except in game terms, where they totally are). But carrying on, I usually field at least one ordnance barrage piece in 1500 points, sometimes two. I use a Manticore and Basilisks because that's what I have models for, but if I had a choice I'd employ Medusas and Colossi. Hopefully the rumored new wave of Guard models coming up will have them, but since Forge World's Medusa conversion kits are still for sale (while the Hydra ones aren't), I'm not getting my hopes up.

Mortars are for pinning lists. You use them with ratlings and psykers so you can make the enemy army hug the dirt all game. Their strength is entirely too low to substitute for the role that ordnance barrage vehicles fill in higher points.

Tanks are good. Guard has some of the best main battle tanks in the game. The basic battle tank is the best battle tank; Demolishers are also good. The Executioner (the plasma-flinging deathtank) is expensive and the Internet doesn't like it, but I've found it invaluable facing the Terminator-happy Marine lists that my metagame is lousy with. I got away from using it for awhile, and taking it away didn't exactly help me any. I still lose with it, but at least I fry a bunch of Grey Knights while losing. You wouldn't go too far wrong with at least one Russ; I tend to use two.

And no, using trim to mark out units in whatever colors you want is perfectly fine. Personally I don't differentiate my modeling much, because I like to keep my model collection flexible to keep my spending on models down (if I did special paint jobs for veterans and platoon troops, I'd need to buy more infantry to accommodate), but if you want, more power to you. Good luck and happy gaming!

Edit:

'Cut down' isn't something I'd use to describe S3 weapon that can't even use FRFSRF. You're within 12" for rapid fire? Oh, that means anything with 3+ save you wanted to shoot is within assault range. Guess who will win even if you will kill some models?

AP3 > FRFSRF against models in power armor. Also, storm troopers can reroll deep strike scatter and can take two special weapons (say, two meltaguns) on a five man squad. Suicide sternguard for only 105 points? Yes, please!

[Sheep Overlord]

Alright, so for now I think I'm going to go with the second list, replacing the snipers in the CCS with grenade launchers. Should I keep the missile launcher for dealing with both armor and infantry, or should I upgrade it to a lascannon and drop the smoke launchers off of the scout sentinel? I couldn't find the points for the camo cloaks without changing the role of a given squad so they're out for now.

I want to include the sentinel because I'm essentially getting it for free (battle force) and I think the model looks pretty cool. I could move the grenade launchers from the CCS to the infantry squads, but for now I think they might be best where they are for the higher BS; when I get to higher points they'll probably be incorporated with infantry while the CCS takes something more worthwhile (plasma? melta? I'm not 100% sure yet).

Tanks look fun. I'll probably try to incorporate at least one LRBT when I get to 1000 points, and maybe a griffon or something to try out ordinance. That pinning list idea sounds interesting, but I can't manage to make it functional at 500 points. Maybe when I get to 1000 I'll play a proxy game with a list like it or something. It doesn't sound particularly competitive, but it does sound like fun. I have a soft spot for mortars.

Thanksmuch for the help :)

[Renegade Paladin]

You're welcome. No, pinning isn't particularly competitive because mech is king in this edition. But when you run into a footslogging force, it can really work. You only want it to be a component of your army, though, not the whole thing; vehicles would run it right over.

Ordnance barrage makes a nice addition to it, since it also causes pinning, at -1 Ld to boot.

When you start getting vehicles, I recommend mounting magnets into the weapons and their mounting points. That's what I do for my tanks, and I can field almost any variety of Russ even though I only have two actual hulls. As for trying a Griffon, you'll need to either proxy, be a crazy skilled conversion expert, or buy from Forge World, since there's no plastic model for it.

[The_Final_Stand]

A disagreement occured at the gaming club I go to, about whether Mindshackle Scarabs can force a model to attack itself if it's alone.

We eventually agreed that even if it doesn't attack itself, it doesn't attack the Necrons that shackled it in the first place, I just wonder what everyone elses opinion was.

[Winterwind]

So it took me something like ten tries, but I finally managed to write up a Grey Knights list that actually manages to contain (almost) everything I wanted. Even if it took 2000 points for that.

Spoiler

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HQ
Inquisitor Coteaz - 100 Points

ELITES
Purifiers (x10) - 309 Points
- Force Halberds (x7), Daemonhammers (x2), Psybolt Ammo
- Knight of the Flame: Force Stave

TROOPS
Strike Squad(x10) - 255+85 Points
- Psycannon (x2), Psybolt Ammo
- Justicar: Masterful Daemonhammer
--- Razorback (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Psybolt Ammo)

Terminators(x5) - 205 Points
- Force Halberds (x2), Daemonhammers (x2), Incinerator
- Justicar: Force Halberd

Inquisitorial Retinue (x12) - 180 Points
- Deathcult Assassins (x7)
- Crusaders (x5)

Inquisitorial Retinue (x11) - 140+55 Points
- Psykers (x8)
- Inquisitorial Servitors with Plasmacannons (x3)
--- Chimera (Multilaser, Heavy Bolter)

FAST ATTACK
Storm Raven - 205 Points
- Twin-Linked Multimelter, Twin-Linked Lascannon

Storm Raven - 205 Points
- Twin-Linked Multimelter, Twin-Linked Lascannon

HEAVY SUPPORT
Land Raider Redeemer - 261 Points
- Multimelter, Psybolt Ammo, Searchlight

Total: 2000

What do you think? Any glaring mistakes or obvious opportunities for improvement?

EDIT: One change I'm contemplating is saving up 40 points somewhere, somehow, and using those to buy a Rhino, nominally for the Purifiers, but then transport the other half of the Strike Squad in it instead (the one with the two Psycannons, obviously).

[Penguinizer]

I'm thinking now that my armylist is solid, I can only blame my lack of skill. The long and the short of it is "How do I not suck?" It's been way too long since I played 40k.

Problems: Somehow rolling 4 1s to wound 6 wolfguard. Not getting close enough to longfangs. Beyond that, I'm just deploying badly. Are there any real good guides for figuring out deployment setups?

[Timberwolf]

Can't do anything about the 1's old boy, they happen. As to the long fangs, they've always been priority #1 for my fire so they've always been dealt with at range rather than needing to get close.

[Penguinizer]

I deployed my obliterators into cover forgetting that Krak missiles were ap3 not ap2. Then again, only one of them died. The real casualties were my plague marines.

[Hawkfrost000]

I deployed my obliterators into cover forgetting that Krak missiles were ap3 not ap2. Then again, only one of them died. The real casualties were my plague marines.

...

arent Krak missiles AP4?

[Penguinizer]

No, they're AP3. Anyways. I should have just had them walk forwards in a line to give cover to the sorcerer/squad behind them.

[Ninjaman]

...

arent Krak missiles AP4?

That would mean that they would be scarier to a rhino than a marine (which hive guard and tyrranofex is).

[Sheep Overlord]

Hmm. Magnetizing sounds like it might be difficult. Are those kinds of magnets carried by gaming stores, or would I need to shop around to find them? And would that step be done before or after assembling/painting the rest of the model? I can see the utility of it I just don't understand the whole process.

I didn't realize that griffon kits weren't readily available (though BOLS seems to think they're coming Q1 2012 and I wouldn't be looking at buying one until afterwards anyway, so there's that). In that case, what would you recommend as a basic introductory ordinance vehicle? I only picked the griffon originally because it was cheap points-wise.

List-wise, should I keep the missile launcher or upgrade it to a lascannon at the cost of smoke grenades on my sentinel? The heavy weapons will probably be be one of the first things I model after a handful of rank-and-file guardsmen so I want to figure that out definitively. I've been going back and forth because the lascannon is specialized and specialization is supposedly king, but the missiles can be used against infantry when there's no armor left and are cheaper to boot. :/ For the most part though my list is pretty much set for 500 points. My main objectives now are to pick a paint scheme and to figure out what I'm doing with my CCS at higher points games, because the GLs will be wasteful.

Paint-wise, I'm thinking dark grey armor and green uniform, or maybe an inversion of the traditional Cadian scheme (with green uniform and tan or brown armor). I haven't found any great pictures of either of those, though, so I'm still not 100% sure. Out of curiosity, when it comes to flocking, where does the fake grass stuff come from? Is that sold by modeling stores, or ordered online? I haven't actually seen any of it in person (at least I think I haven't - maybe the packaging is just a bit misleading). Anyway. All of that is mostly subjective and rambling and I apologize for making you read that unnecessarily.

Moving on to more practical concerns, I think I'm going to end up giving my CCS plasmaguns at higher points values. If I go mechanized they'll get a chimera, if not they'll stay on foot I guess and possibly get camo cloaks / carapace armor to make up for the lack of AV 12/10. But, should I just slap 4 plasmaguns on the squad a call it a day, or should I replace one with a medic, and is a plasma pistol worth it, and can the bodyguards be used as ablative shielding from overheating and general shooting, and should I keep the lascannon with them. . . . basically I have a lot of confusion over what works and what doesn't for plasmaguns because I have almost no practical experience with the game (yet) and most discussion on the internetz seems to focus on raving over meltavets rather than discussing any alternatives.

tl;dr Lascannon or missile launcher and smoke grenades? Ordinance recommendations? Paint scheme and flocking recommendations? Plasma setup for PCS?

[Ninjaman]

List-wise, should I keep the missile launcher or upgrade it to a lascannon at the cost of smoke grenades on my sentinel? The heavy weapons will probably be be one of the first things I model after a handful of rank-and-file guardsmen so I want to figure that out definitively. I've been going back and forth because the lascannon is specialized and specialization is supposedly king, but the missiles can be used against infantry when there's no armor left and are cheaper to boot. :/ For the most part though my list is pretty much set for 500 points. My main objectives now are to pick a paint scheme and to figure out what I'm doing with my CCS at higher points games, because the GLs will be wasteful.

At 500 pts i would say keep the missiles.

[Cheesegear]

A disagreement occured at the gaming club I go to, about whether Mindshackle Scarabs can force a model to attack itself if it's alone.

No, they don't. They just don't attack.

So it took me something like ten tries, but I finally managed to write up a Grey Knights list that actually manages to contain (almost) everything I wanted.

Looks pretty good.

And would that step be done before or after assembling/painting the rest of the model? I can see the utility of it I just don't understand the whole process.

Magnetising should be done before painting. Otherwise you're drilling holes, green stuffing, and putting super glue all over you're nice shiny paint job. There's probably a tutorial about magnetising on YouTube for pretty much anything.
I know I've found one for everything that I've looked up.

In that case, what would you recommend as a basic introductory ordinance vehicle? I only picked the griffon originally because it was cheap points-wise.

A vehicle that shoots Ordnance? Leman Russ Battle Tank. Every time.
A vehicle from the 'Ordnance Battery' unit? Medusa or Colossi.

I've been going back and forth because the lascannon is specialized and specialization is supposedly king, but the missiles can be used against infantry when there's no armor left and are cheaper to boot.

The only problem is that Guard shouldn't have any problems dealing with Infantry anyway. Between Autocannons and Heavy Flamers/Multilasers on Chimeras, and FRF!SRF! you should be able to deal with a lot.

I'm doing with my CCS at higher points games, because the GLs will be wasteful.

In higher levels, a CCS/PCS are only good for chucking out Orders. They need to be kept alive at all costs. Because Orders are broke. Medi-pack and Vox and you're done. Grenade Launchers are only five points apiece so why not? The thing you need to remember about CCS/PCS is that they shouldn't look like threats, or your opponent shouldn't even once consider shooting them.

If they've got something like two Lascannons (in a small unit of 5), not only does the unit shoot out enough damage to be really annoying, but it's small enough to kill. The other thing you can do is keep CCS/PCS out of LoS, which means they can't see anything either, which means they can't shoot so don't waste points.

CCS/PCS are both the easiest squads to upgrade, and also the most common unit to be messed up during list-building.

Out of curiosity, when it comes to flocking, where does the fake grass stuff come from?

Every good hobby/model store has flock.

But, should I just slap 4 plasmaguns on the squad a call it a day, or should I replace one with a medic

Absolutely! Your Command Squads are the most important units in your army and you do not want them dying just because you rolled a '1' in your own shooting phase.

and is a plasma pistol worth it

No. Do not have your Officer kill himself. Ever.

and can the bodyguards be used as ablative shielding from overheating and general shooting

For overheating? No. Read the rules for Plasma weapons (pg 31).
For shooting, yes. That's what they're for.

most discussion on the internetz seems to focus on raving over meltavets rather than discussing any alternatives.

Because Meltavets are the best?
No, the Internet is a really stupid guy, and doesn't like anything that isn't 'the best', and anything that isn't 'the best' is automatically useless.

For my Infantry Guard (they're not in a Chimera riding forwards). I take Medi-Pack, Vox, and two Grenade Launchers, and give them priority cover when it comes to deploying.

For Plasma weapons, Medi-pack, Vox, x2 Plasma weapons and Carapace Armour. I like Orders though, so you could drop the Vox and add another Plasmagun.

The only problem with that setup, and why I don't do it, is because Veterans can do it too, and have double the ablative wounds before hitting the Plasma weapons, and are Scoring.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hmm. Magnetizing sounds like it might be difficult.

It's not. I use little rare-earth magnets that you can get in hobby stores; the gauge I have actually fits neatly inside the bore of a Demolisher cannon and also fits comfortably inside the two halves of the Executioner plasma cannon. The Punisher cannon requires a smaller magnet, but you don't want it anyway, so I haven't bothered yet.

The basic battle tank kit is both easier and harder. Easier because the battle cannon and Vanquisher cannon both fit into the same mount, so you can just slide them in and out without needing magnets. Harder because the way the weapons are set up, the battle/Vanquisher cannons and the Exterminator and Eradicator cannons don't share the same join to the turret, so you have to be able to disassemble your turret to switch between them. Fear not, though, because both guns are traps, and you don't want them. (You can get two Hydras for the points price of an Exterminator, for twice as many twin-linked autocannon shots.)

And would that step be done before or after assembling/painting the rest of the model? I can see the utility of it I just don't understand the whole process.

It's done during assembly, since you put magnets inside the vehicle. Once it's together, magnetizing is no-go barring some really fancy tweezer acrobatics through the turret ring.

I didn't realize that griffon kits weren't readily available (though BOLS seems to think they're coming Q1 2012 and I wouldn't be looking at buying one until afterwards anyway, so there's that). In that case, what would you recommend as a basic introductory ordinance vehicle? I only picked the griffon originally because it was cheap points-wise.

It does? I just went searching and can't find the article. The only evidence I've seen for a new release wave is a statement in the modeling thread here and the fact that some Guard tank conversion kits have mysteriously gone missing from Forge World. Link?

Anyway, Cheesegear seems to have missed the point when he made his recommendation answering your question, since there's no Colossus or Medusa model either. Manticores are good. Basilisks are good if you eventually want to play Apocalypse, but their range is a bit silly for normal tabletop sizes. (Of course, so is the range on the Colossus.)

List-wise, should I keep the missile launcher or upgrade it to a lascannon at the cost of smoke grenades on my sentinel? The heavy weapons will probably be be one of the first things I model after a handful of rank-and-file guardsmen so I want to figure that out definitively. I've been going back and forth because the lascannon is specialized and specialization is supposedly king, but the missiles can be used against infantry when there's no armor left and are cheaper to boot. :/ For the most part though my list is pretty much set for 500 points. My main objectives now are to pick a paint scheme and to figure out what I'm doing with my CCS at higher points games, because the GLs will be wasteful.

Missile launcher at this points level, definitely. Unless you know someone like me is going to turn up with a command squad, two veteran squads, and two Leman Russ battle tanks (490 points there, put in ten points of special weapons to suit) to your 500 point games. But the meltavets can take care of that.

I disagree about grenade launchers being definitely wasteful. I don't use them in my metagame because I fight almost exclusively Marines and Marine equivalent armies. You need to fit your list-building to your metagame. People will screech about list-tailoring, but I maintain that building to your metagame is different from building to beat one particular list that you know someone's bringing.

Paint-wise, I'm thinking dark grey armor and green uniform, or maybe an inversion of the traditional Cadian scheme (with green uniform and tan or brown armor). I haven't found any great pictures of either of those, though, so I'm still not 100% sure. Out of curiosity, when it comes to flocking, where does the fake grass stuff come from? Is that sold by modeling stores, or ordered online? I haven't actually seen any of it in person (at least I think I haven't - maybe the packaging is just a bit misleading). Anyway. All of that is mostly subjective and rambling and I apologize for making you read that unnecessarily.

Eh. Think nothing of it. You're more likely to get good painting advice in the modeling thread, though. A large portion of my army is grey or just basecoated because I'm the laziest painter you'll ever meet; I won't presume to give you advice on painting.

Moving on to more practical concerns, I think I'm going to end up giving my CCS plasmaguns at higher points values. If I go mechanized they'll get a chimera, if not they'll stay on foot I guess and possibly get camo cloaks / carapace armor to make up for the lack of AV 12/10. But, should I just slap 4 plasmaguns on the squad a call it a day, or should I replace one with a medic, and is a plasma pistol worth it, and can the bodyguards be used as ablative shielding from overheating and general shooting, and should I keep the lascannon with them. . . . basically I have a lot of confusion over what works and what doesn't for plasmaguns because I have almost no practical experience with the game (yet) and most discussion on the internetz seems to focus on raving over meltavets rather than discussing any alternatives.

My army never leaves barracks without the following:

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

If you're not going mechanized, don't do the plasma guns, because they need to be mobile to work, although not quite as badly as meltas do. (Your enemy will deploy to avoid this unit if they can't immediately kill it, so it needs to be able to go to them.) If you are, don't take the lascannon, because it can't shoot when the vehicle moves. For tactics using this, I use it as a counterattack platform; it hangs back around the infantry for orders and moves to intercept incoming heavy infantry when they're about to become a problem.

[Sheep Overlord]

BOLS article referenced is here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/...rd-on-way.html

Griffon/Medusa/Colossus kit, Stormtrooper/Veterans kit, and Hydra kit - all in plastic - expected Q1 2012. Cheers.

[Ninjaman]

A vehicle that shoots Ordnance? Leman Russ Battle Tank. Every time.
A vehicle from the 'Ordnance Battery' unit? Medusa or Colossi.

I just had a look at them in army builder and the medusa just looks way better. Did i miss something.

I disagree about grenade launchers being definitely wasteful. I don't use them in my metagame because I fight almost exclusively Marines and Marine equivalent armies. You need to fit your list-building to your metagame. People will screech about list-tailoring, but I maintain that building to your metagame is different from building to beat one particular list that you know someone's bringing.

No you should builld a list so that it can beat any list.

[Renegade Paladin]

I just had a look at them in army builder and the medusa just looks way better. Did i miss something.

Two things. The Medusa isn't Barrage, and the Colossus doesn't allow cover saves. They have different applications; the Medusa is anti-vehicle (especially with bastion-breacher shells) and the Colossus is anti-infantry.

No you should builld a list so that it can beat any list.

Give me one good reason why I should plan to face a horde army when there are no horde armies in my metagame. I can show up to a tournament absolutely assured that I will face nothing but Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Ultramarines, Iron Warriors Chaos Marines, and the odd Black Templars or Eldar, and I see no reason to render myself combat ineffective before the game starts.

[Cheesegear]

Give me one good reason why I should plan to face a horde army when there are no horde armies in my metagame. I can show up to a tournament absolutely assured that I will face nothing but Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Ultramarines, Iron Warriors Chaos Marines, and the odd Black Templars or Eldar, and I see no reason to render myself combat ineffective before the game starts.

+1, Like, QFT. Double Dragon hyper-mega-uppercut Hadouken. Yours is the drill that will pierce the Heavens.

...Sounds better than 'I agree', which I do.

[Ninjaman]

Two things. The Medusa isn't Barrage, and the Colossus doesn't allow cover saves. They have different applications; the Medusa is anti-vehicle (especially with bastion-breacher shells) and the Colossus is anti-infantry.

How is large blast good anti-tank?

Give me one good reason why I should plan to face a horde army when there are no horde armies in my metagame. I can show up to a tournament absolutely assured that I will face nothing but Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Ultramarines, Iron Warriors Chaos Marines, and the odd Black Templars or Eldar, and I see no reason to render myself combat ineffective before the game starts.

Becourse a truely good army can beat any army.

[Cheesegear]

Because a truely good army can beat any army.

There's no such thing as a truly good army. Not unless you're in the 2500 point mark where you can fill all slots and have to points to fit in everything and everything you want.

When you play lower points costs, sometimes you just have to make do with what works and ignore everything else.

[Penguinizer]

I don't really think the new Leman Russ Demolisher/normal kits really even need magnets. From my experience you can just push the cannon bit into the slot and it shouldn't fall out. Same with the new sponsons. You could use double sided tape just as well.

[Renegade Paladin]

How is large blast good anti-tank?

It's S10 Ordnance. It also has no way of denying cover, being not barrage (at least you can get a barrage template behind the cover). Having a large blast attached to re-rolled against AV S10 does not make re-rolled against AV S10 ineffective at killing tanks, nor is it especially effective against infantry in area terrain or behind cover. The Colossus, being AP3 no cover saves, is.

Becourse a truely good army can beat any army.

I still have lots of lasguns. Power armor is harder to deal with than bodies; the ability to shoot lots of shots is built right into the Guard. Sure, I could tailor for Orks and Tyranids by bringing lots of flamers and grenade launchers, but that means I'm less capable of dealing with the things I'm actually going to fight, so why would I do it?

I don't really think the new Leman Russ Demolisher/normal kits really even need magnets. From my experience you can just push the cannon bit into the slot and it shouldn't fall out. Same with the new sponsons. You could use double sided tape just as well.

You can with the battle tank, but the Demolisher and variants are a bit more finicky; a magnet helps. True enough about the sponson weapons, though; they're loose until they're primed and painted, but the layer of paint makes a tight fit. Besides, you can magnetize the sponson itself so that you can take it off if you don't want sponson weapons. I put mine together before thinking of that, so when I can't pay for my multimeltas I just leave the weapons off and have empty sponsons, but that just looks weird.

[Sheep Overlord]

One quick rules question: if the CCS with plasma gives itself the 'Bring it Down!' order, and rerolls the ones, do the plasmaguns still blow up afterwards? Or are the ones ignored because they've been rerolled?

[Cheesegear]

Or are the ones ignored because they've been rerolled?

Yep, and more words.

[Ninjaman]

It's S10 Ordnance. It also has no way of denying cover, being not barrage (at least you can get a barrage template behind the cover). Having a large blast attached to re-rolled against AV S10 does not make re-rolled against AV S10 ineffective at killing tanks, nor is it especially effective against infantry in area terrain or behind cover. The Colossus, being AP3 no cover saves, is.

Where do you get the re-roll? Ordnance allows you to roll two dice and pick the highest.
And yes S10 is good, but blast means that you will scatter, wouldn't you be better of with just lots of lascannons?
Isn't the Medusa agains stuff with 2+ saves, 5+T, Multi wound models (T4+).

[Renegade Paladin]

Where do you get the re-roll? Ordnance allows you to roll two dice and pick the highest.
And yes S10 is good, but blast means that you will scatter, wouldn't you be better of with just lots of lascannons?
Isn't the Medusa agains stuff with 2+ saves, 5+T, Multi wound models (T4+).

Rolling two and picking the highest is effectively the same thing, only better since if the second is lower you're not stuck.

Ordnance scatters 2/3 of the time, and sometimes not enough to matter because you subtract BS from the scatter distance. Lascannons miss half the time. Large blast ordnance is also dual-purpose, as it can indeed hit lots of infantry in addition to reliably penetrating most armor, but S10 is not as good at killing most infantry in the game as S6 AP3 with disallowing cover saves, because thanks to the cover rules, everything is in cover all the time.

[Ninjaman]

Rolling two and picking the highest is effectively the same thing, only better since if the second is lower you're not stuck.

Ordnance scatters 2/3 of the time, and sometimes not enough to matter because you subtract BS from the scatter distance. Lascannons miss half the time. Large blast ordnance is also dual-purpose, as it can indeed hit lots of infantry in addition to reliably penetrating most armor, but S10 is not as good at killing most infantry in the game as S6 AP3 with disallowing cover saves, because thanks to the cover rules, everything is in cover all the time.

*A lot of the time
And being in cover will slow you down, stuff like terminators won't get the advantage since they have ++ saves, and therefore will rather stay in the open.

[Renegade Paladin]

Terminators aren't most infantry.