Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Trixie]

I say go for the zoanthropes. a 3++ is a hard save to crack, and with 3 models your opponent has to crack it 6 times. they'll get a lot of damage done before then.

It's exactly as hard as killing 6 Space Marines, which is done all the time, really.

Or crack it 3 times with krack missies.

I'd like to see 'krack missies' penetrate 3++. At best, you need 9 shots to reliably bring them down, meaning you need to fire at least 14-15. Nah, too wasteful, IMHO, Zoans can be dealt with by infantry, you need Krak for MCs too much when you fight Tyranids.

[Penguinizer]

Zoanthropes are instakilled by Krak, so you only need 3 on average.

1 to go through, 2 get stopped by saves.
3 have to wound, on a 2+ it means 3.6 (4) shots have to hit.
2/3 hit, meaning you only on average need 6.

[Hootman]

DM was referring to the Krak Missiles causing Instant Death to the Zoan's, making them highly effective if you get a lucky volley from one Devastator unit.

As for using them against Tyranid MC's, you're completely right. Krak Missile are almost unfairly effective...which may be part of why I haven't played vs Tyranids with my "DEVASTATORS DEVASTATE" Codex SM list for a long time now. It's hardly fair (especially when I get lucky).

"RAWR, I AM THE FLYING HIVE TYRANT, AND I WILL ASSAULT YOUR TROOPS NEXT TURN WHILE THEY'RE HELD UP BY A BROODLORD AND DESTROY THEM!!!"
"Devastators? DEVASTATE!"
One unit. Four shots. Four hits. Four wounds. No saves allowed.
"Oh...Sorry, Tyranid-playing-bro."
It was awesome, but I felt a little bad that it had worked so well with so little effort.

[Trixie]

Zoanthropes are instakilled by Krak, so you only need 3 on average.

1 to go through, 2 get stopped by saves.
3 have to wound, on a 2+ it means 3.6 (4) shots have to hit.
2/3 hit, meaning you only on average need 6.

Times 3, since we were talking about unit of 3, giving us my number.

DM, on the other hand, suggested Ap3 beats 3++ somehow.

DM was referring to the Krak Missiles causing Instant Death to the Zoan's, making them highly effective if you get a lucky volley from one Devastator unit.

As for using them against Tyranid MC's, you're completely right. Krak Missile are almost unfairly effective...which may be part of why I haven't played vs Tyranids with my "DEVASTATORS DEVASTATE" Codex SM list for a long time now. It's hardly fair (especially when I get lucky).

Yeah. Devastators/Long Fangs are excellent vs MCs, which are your biggest problem, so no one will shoot them at Zoans (that can be easily killed using anti-infantry guns) unless the table is almost entirely clear, which was my point.

Eh, when I tried to play 1250 points of Tyranids vs SW, one unit of Long Fangs did more damage to my army than the rest of his force combined (though one Rune Priest did snipe 2 MCs with Jaws, dammit).

[Timberwolf]

One thing I'll add, as a person who primarily plays mech, the second greatest priority for my long range heavy weapons weaponry against Nids are Zoanthropes. They weigh in just behind the Tyrannofex because they're short ranged and can be stopped with the magic hat whereas the 'Fex isn't and can't. Once you get past that invulnerable (which a drop pod full of Sternguard / 12 Bloodstrike missiles etc etc should do nicely), they can be instakilled with S8, which makes them squishy. I consider it a bad omen if they're still alive for my anti infantry guns to do their stuff, especially since they'll be camping in cover and by the time the Zoanthropes in range of them, it's in range to put a serious hurting on my vehicles too. After they're dead, it's just a matter of keeping the nice shiny Stormraven out of the MC's way and letting the Assault cannons and Sniper rifles do their work.

[Ninjaman]

Or crack it 3 times with krack missies.

DM

NO! You use massed fire. You simply do not have enough missiles to waste 3(after wounds) per 60pts model.

[Erloas]

NO! You use massed fire. You simply do not have enough missiles to waste 3(after wounds) per 60pts model.

Depends on what other good options you have for those missiles to go after.

It takes an average of 3 missiles to kill 1, and killing 1 is doing 3 wounds, so in the end you are averaging 1 missile per wound. Which is all the more you can expect because against everything that isn't terminators or with an invul save, that is as good as it gets. And in terms of points, most infantry (other the terminators, characters and a few other things) aren't more then 20 points a piece, so you aren't likely to kill much more then 60 points of models in 3 shots shooting at most other infantry.

Of course if the primary use of your missiles is anti-tank then it doesn't make as much sense to send it after infantry... but then again it is tyranids and they don't have vehicles, so then it depends on what else they have for MCs.
And even against vehicles... any that can practically be killed by just 3 missiles aren't much more then 60 points.

[Winterwind]

Depends on what other good options you have for those missiles to go after.

It takes an average of 3 missiles to kill 1, and killing 1 is doing 3 wounds, so in the end you are averaging 1 missile per wound. Which is all the more you can expect because against everything that isn't terminators or with an invul save, that is as good as it gets. And in terms of points, most infantry (other the terminators, characters and a few other things) aren't more then 20 points a piece, so you aren't likely to kill much more then 60 points of models in 3 shots shooting at most other infantry.

Of course if the primary use of your missiles is anti-tank then it doesn't make as much sense to send it after infantry... but then again it is tyranids and they don't have vehicles, so then it depends on what else they have for MCs.

Zoanthropes actually have only W2, not W3.

Otherwise though, I fully agree with your statement. It completely depends on what other targets there are around.

__

Does Hammerhand stack? I.e., if you have, say, an Inquisitor and a unit of Grey Knights/Purifiers/whatever, can the Inquisitor and the unit both use Hammerhand for a +2S bonus? The FAQ doesn't seem to contain that information, and Hammerhand itself doesn't say, either...

[hamishspence]

Does Hammerhand stack? I.e., if you have, say, an Inquisitor and a unit of Grey Knights/Purifiers/whatever, can the Inquisitor and the unit both use Hammerhand for a +2S bonus? The FAQ doesn't seem to contain that information, and Hammerhand itself doesn't say, either...

From the 40k Rulebook FAQ.:

Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast
multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

[Winterwind]

From the 40k Rulebook FAQ.:

Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast
multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)
A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Oooh... didn't think of looking into the main rulebook FAQ.

Alrighty, thanks a lot!

[Renegade Paladin]

Keep in mind that the Space Marine one is basically the same; A lot of shiny toys but nothing particularly useful.

What if you already have some Terminators due to a habit of getting a bits grab bag whenever you order from a certain online store and the cumulative random bags of bits happen to have all the parts for a Terminator squad in them?

Not that I'm looking to start a Space Marine army at this time, but if for kicks I decide to before they take them off the market, I'd like to know what I'm looking at.

[Trixie]

What if you already have some Terminators due to a habit of getting a bits grab bag whenever you order from a certain online store and the cumulative random bags of bits happen to have all the parts for a Terminator squad in them?

Not that I'm looking to start a Space Marine army at this time, but if for kicks I decide to before they take them off the market, I'd like to know what I'm looking at.

The SM one is very unfocused: LR asks for assault Termies, Drop Pod for Sternguard or the like, there is no vehicle for captain/command squad, Land Speeder Strom and Scouts are wasted money for anything other than C:SM, 3 vehicles of different kinds don't synergize that well...

Really, the list of problems is kind of long, IMHO, unless your Termies are pure assault ones, you're better off buying SW Battleforce or two. Or two halves of AoBR some online shops offer, much less waste this way...

[Hawkfrost000]

Times 3, since we were talking about unit of 3, giving us my number.

DM, on the other hand, suggested Ap3 beats 3++ somehow.

It is not inconceivable for someone to fail a 3++ 3 times in a row.

For the record i never even mentioned AP in my OP just that all it takes is a single missile, it may not work all the time, but behaving like it wont is just as crazy as behaving like it always will.

DM

[Tychris1]

Hmmm, general consensus is going towards Zonathropes, but I remember Renegade Paladin asking about my list so that it would be easier to choose so here it is.

Spoiler

Show

1 Swarmlord
1 Doom of Malantai (Or Zoant I the urge arises)
1 Zoanthrope
2 Carnifi (Capable of being Tervigons due to magnetized limbs or proxy Tyranno's)
1 Trygon Prime (Or trygon)
1 Tyranid Prime (With duel boneswords/deathspitter)
5 Tyranid Warriors (Same as Prime, in the group with prime)
17 Termagaunts (Normally wielding Devourers, dat dakka)
15 Hormagaunts (Varying biomorphs)
3 Ripper Swarms (Rarely used)
10 Gargoyles (Used more then rippers but still only on occasion)
7-9 Genestealers (I tend to find/lose 1-2 sporadically)
1 Broodlord
1 Upcoming Tyranid Heirophant Bio Titan (Just so I can say "KABOOM BABY" whenever I play a game)

The () maybe options are only for suggestions such as "Well if you had a Tyrannofex's instead of Carnifi you could take blagh blagh blagh to help do X" otherwise take it at face value, I am not asking for my list to be changed only added upon (Just because I can change it doesn't mean that is my first thing to do, I would very much prefer to keep the units as they are). I will change what the units in my list are when I find that I fail to compete in my meta with them, otherwise only losing 4 times in my life isn't so bad for this list. I'm only looking for the 3 different models because the budget is 50$ and I'd rather not spend it on 'Gaunts (Despite my lack of them, I'll get around to them later). So that is my list of stuff that I plan on incorporating more Guards (Hive or Tyrant)/Zoanthropes/Raveners.

[Hootman]

Tychrys1, would you mind posting your list in actual Army List format? It's a little hard to keep track of everything when it's not in a nice convenient format, and it will also give us a good idea of what points value you're playing at and what upgrades you prefer to use (which allows us to make more targetted suggestions, as priorities can change drastically at different levels).

[Renegade Paladin]

Hmmm, general consensus is going towards Zonathropes, but I remember Renegade Paladin asking about my list so that it would be easier to choose so here it is.

I did? I don't know anything about Tyranids except that tanks hose the Doom of Malan'tai and that general consensus is they suck. I don't know what the units do, and seeing your list doesn't tell me, so I don't think you're remembering me.

The SM one is very unfocused: LR asks for assault Termies, Drop Pod for Sternguard or the like, there is no vehicle for captain/command squad, Land Speeder Strom and Scouts are wasted money for anything other than C:SM, 3 vehicles of different kinds don't synergize that well...

Really, the list of problems is kind of long, IMHO, unless your Termies are pure assault ones, you're better off buying SW Battleforce or two. Or two halves of AoBR some online shops offer, much less waste this way...

Dreadnoughts also use drop pods, but point taken. A command squad can be kitted out for heavy melee, as I understand it, but I don't know how expensive it is in points compared to assault termies, so they may or may not do well thunder hammering it up in the Land Raider. I'd probably do a Codex Marine army anyway, so the Storm wouldn't be a total waste (and Wolf Scouts are awesome, so I wouldn't call the scouts a waste for all the other codices), but the main reason I'm slow to start a Marine army is because I'd paint them camo and play the Knights Inductor or a successor (), and I don't think any current Marine codex really supports doing that.

[Cheesegear]

Dreadnoughts also use drop pods, but point taken. A command squad can be kitted out for heavy melee, as I understand it, but I don't know how expensive it is in points compared to assault termies, so they may or may not do well thunder hammering it up in the Land Raider. I'd probably do a Codex Marine army anyway, so the Storm wouldn't be a total waste (and Wolf Scouts are awesome, so I wouldn't call the scouts a waste for all the other codices)

May as well do it...

Space Marine Mega(crap)force. It is far worse than the Dark Eldar Megaforce. And, Dark Eldar are far better than Codex Marines. So, it's a win-win if you're using Christmas to start a new army. You should make it Dark Eldar.

20 Tactical Marines; Two squads of 10, or 4 squads of five. However, the only reason to do either of those things is access to Multi-Meltas, Las- and Plasma- Cannons (and Rhinos), which Tactical Squads don't come with. Or, for the smaller version, 4 Razorbacks. Which you aren't getting with this box.

5 Scouts and Land Speeder Storm; I like this option, it's always nice to see. Unfortunately, the Storm can't be used in Blood- or Dark- Angels or Black Templars. If - for whatever reason - you don't want to actually play Vanilla Marines, the Storm is going to waste.

Command Squad; The consensus is that without Bikes, Command Squads are just bad. Tooling them out for combat makes them bad Vanguard (and Vanguard are bad to begin with). You can make them into an Invulnerable, Brick unit, but Hammernators are kind of better at it - even if they can't Sweeping Advance. Command Squads-on-foot are great with Kor'Sarro. But Kor'Sarro also works best in a large Outflanking unit of Hammernators...
Kor'Sarro works even better on a Bike, when you have a Command Squad on Bikes...But then we're back to square one.

Commander; Yeah, I suppose. Although Vanilla Captains in the current meta-game need to be either Uniques, or on a Bike, or - in Kor'Sarro's case - a Unique on a Bike. The current standard for Captains-on-Foot is Relic Blade and Combi-Melta - and it's not even that good.

Venerable Dreadnought; Beautiful Model. Doesn't do much. Doesn't come with any Autocannon arms. But Assault Cannon+Missile Launcher is very nice otherwise. Probably use as a regular Dread.

Drop Pod is good. I don't really care whether you play Codex Marines, Space Wolves, or Blood Angels. Every Marine army should have one (if not more) Drop Pods for the first-turn Alpha Strike. Depends what you put in it.

Land Raider Crusader; Meh. Unless you're being Kor'Sarro and Terminators, or playing min-Scouts-max-Land Raiders, Land Raiders just aren't that useful.

Two Battleforces - unlike Dark Eldar, this is actually more expensive than the Megaforce.

30 Tactical Marines (nice!) and two Rhinos (!!!). That's a lot of Troops. If you've even got a little bit of money, turning those Rhinos into Plaserbacks (use Terminus Ultra sprue) is good.

Already the Battleforce are a better idea. And the Blood Angel one is even better. Two BA Battleforces are also below-cost to the Megaforce, and are Blood Angels, rather than Codex Marines, if you care about that sort of thing.

but the main reason I'm slow to start a Marine army is because I'd paint them camo and play the Knights Inductor or a successor (), and I don't think any current Marine codex really supports doing that.

Shrike and Kor'Sarro/Sicarius. Not 'or', 'and'.

If you can, pick up IA8, use Korvydae, which allows you to run Assault Squads as Troops, to free your FA Slots for LSStorms.

The other option is IA10, using the Mantis Warriors, where Combat Tactics becomes Infiltrate.

[Ninjaman]

Hmmm, general consensus is going towards Zonathropes, but I remember Renegade Paladin asking about my list so that it would be easier to choose so here it is.

Spoiler

Show

1 Swarmlord
1 Doom of Malantai (Or Zoant I the urge arises)
1 Zoanthrope
2 Carnifi (Capable of being Tervigons due to magnetized limbs or proxy Tyranno's)
1 Trygon Prime (Or trygon)
1 Tyranid Prime (With duel boneswords/deathspitter)
5 Tyranid Warriors (Same as Prime, in the group with prime)
17 Termagaunts (Normally wielding Devourers, dat dakka)
15 Hormagaunts (Varying biomorphs)
3 Ripper Swarms (Rarely used)
10 Gargoyles (Used more then rippers but still only on occasion)
7-9 Genestealers (I tend to find/lose 1-2 sporadically)
1 Broodlord
1 Upcoming Tyranid Heirophant Bio Titan (Just so I can say "KABOOM BABY" whenever I play a game)

The () maybe options are only for suggestions such as "Well if you had a Tyrannofex's instead of Carnifi you could take blagh blagh blagh to help do X" otherwise take it at face value, I am not asking for my list to be changed only added upon (Just because I can change it doesn't mean that is my first thing to do, I would very much prefer to keep the units as they are). I will change what the units in my list are when I find that I fail to compete in my meta with them, otherwise only losing 4 times in my life isn't so bad for this list. I'm only looking for the 3 different models because the budget is 50$ and I'd rather not spend it on 'Gaunts (Despite my lack of them, I'll get around to them later). So that is my list of stuff that I plan on incorporating more Guards (Hive or Tyrant)/Zoanthropes/Raveners.

I asked.
Why do you build a hierotitan? You lack so much ordinary stuff.
Hive guards are good.
Don't use Swarmlord without at least 2 guards.
Use fexes as Tervigons.
I think gaunts are too expencive with biomorphs.
Outflank stealers, it is cheaper and you can make a charge.

[Tychris1]

Oh sorry Paladin, got your names mixed up.

I'm building a Heirophant because we recently got a fort that takes up an entire 4X4 table, so I'm getting a Titan to play on it (Possibly doing a "King Kong vs. Godzilla vs. Frankenstein" idea with the other players Baneblade and Stompa). Also it's really cool. Ordinary stuff like what? I've been thinking about using Tervigons, but lack the models but I'm thinking about jut proxying orks/space marines from AoBR as Termagaunts.

Yeah I generally tend to outflank with them.

[Hootman]

So, I've been trying to put together a "good enough for now" IG list using the models I have, but I'm having a hell of a time of it because I only have about 45 of them (teams counting for two, obviously). It's really too bad that Steel Legion is all expensive and limited in its model range, because I find them really cool. Eventually I'll figure out how to convert Cadians and maybe pick up some Kriegs to supplement the force, but I'm low on play-money for the time being. Does anyone have any ideas for what I could do? I realized today that most Steel Legion lasgunners would be REALLY easy to convert into flamer or melta guys, so that's on the table. No plasma though, except maybe the unbuilt CCS guys. Anyways, this is what I have to work with:

4 CCW/Pistol Sergeants
4 Grenade Launchers
3 Missile Teams
1 Heavy Bolter Team
24 Lasgunners
1 Box of Cadian Command Squad (5 and a half men), unbuilt.
2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks
1 Techmarine, same as a Techpriest Enginseer
4 Servitors, with up to 2 Heavy Bolter arms

I have about 25 Sniper Scout Marines (and 5 shotgunners) I could "counts as Ratlings (or Veterans)" if I wanted, and a handful of models that could pretend to be a Commissar or Company Commander or whatever, but everything else is too much power armor to be usable.

I am pretty inventive, though, and I have a LOT of bits and junk, so if you come up with something I "need" then I can probably make it happen. My current target point value is 1000. Any ideas?

[Provengreil]

So, I've been trying to put together a "good enough for now" IG list using the models I have, but I'm having a hell of a time of it because I only have about 45 of them (teams counting for two, obviously). It's really too bad that Steel Legion is all expensive and limited in its model range, because I find them really cool. Eventually I'll figure out how to convert Cadians and maybe pick up some Kriegs to supplement the force, but I'm low on play-money for the time being. Does anyone have any ideas for what I could do? I realized today that most Steel Legion lasgunners would be REALLY easy to convert into flamer or melta guys, so that's on the table. No plasma though, except maybe the unbuilt CCS guys. Anyways, this is what I have to work with:

4 CCW/Pistol Sergeants
4 Grenade Launchers
3 Missile Teams
1 Heavy Bolter Team
24 Lasgunners
1 Box of Cadian Command Squad (5 and a half men), unbuilt.
2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks
1 Techmarine, same as a Techpriest Enginseer
4 Servitors, with up to 2 Heavy Bolter arms

I have about 25 Sniper Scout Marines (and 5 shotgunners) I could "counts as Ratlings (or Veterans)" if I wanted, and a handful of models that could pretend to be a Commissar or Company Commander or whatever, but everything else is too much power armor to be usable.

I am pretty inventive, though, and I have a LOT of bits and junk, so if you come up with something I "need" then I can probably make it happen. My current target point value is 1000. Any ideas?

If you could turn the leman russes into the plasma cannon variant, I believe those are pretty expensive in points, and I've seen 'em used pretty well. Executioner, i think(don't have a guard codex, working from iffy memory). You say you have a lot of power armor, does this involve terminators that could be used for ogryn? they're a substandard choice as discussed above, but they'll raise your point count, which seems to be the goal here.

[Hootman]

[...] they'll raise your point count, which seems to be the goal here.

Honestly, I'm looking more for idea of what I can do with the models I have or can convert rather than somewhat inappropriate 'counts as' like Terminators = Ogryns. With the fiddling I've done, I don't seem to have any trouble hitting the 1000 point marker when I'm using all of my models, it's just that I have not figured out a build that doesn't look like junk.

Now, I understand that part of my problem is my low target point-value (so I can't have a LOT of stuff), and part of my problem is my lack of vehicles that aren't rolling on a Leman-chassis (so I can't use Chimeras or Hydras or anything else like it). I'm fairly sure I can proxy Lemans as Chimeras if I really want to, but that negates any long-range tank-support I could have.

Currently, I'm fiddling with the following list, but I can't tell if it's garbage or not:

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Company Command Squad, 145pts
-Medipack, 3 Plasmaguns, Carapace Armor

Company Command Squad, 95pts
-Medipack, Regimental Standard

ELITES
Ratlings 5, 50pts

Ratlings 5, 50pts

TROOPS
Veterans, 120pts
-Grenade Launcher, Missile Team, Forward Sentries

Veterans, 120pts
-Grenade Launcher, Missile Team, Forward Sentries

Veterans, 120pts
-Grenade Launcher, Missile Team, Forward Sentries

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank, 150pts

Leman Russ Battle Tank, 150pts

TOTAL: 1000 points

This is still a work in progress, but at least I'm in the neighborhood of what I can do. It's possible for me to combine two Vet squads into an Infantry Platoon (with some of my leftover models added), but I don't know if that's a good idea. Guess I'll go play with the list some more...

[Provengreil]

------------------

[Provengreil]

In that case, you could try converting a few sponsons for your tanks to add to their firepower. in my experience, veterans don't do too well without a chimera, and with a couple other squads also in chimeras. with only 2 vehicles, it's probably best to use them as the big tanks they are. You could probably get call a few of those lasgunners stormtroopers and send em in with AP3 like suicide sternguards, the enemy usually has at least one juicy target for something like this.

and there's always marbo, if you can assemble someone from your cadian command squad to look like him. he's pretty awesome.

[Closet_Skeleton]

NO! You use massed fire. You simply do not have enough missiles to waste 3(after wounds) per 60pts model.

Why don't you? I usually bring at least 8 when I'm bringing any. Unless I'm only playing 1000 points.

[BoSheck]

Honestly, I'm looking more for idea of what I can do with the models I have or can convert rather than somewhat inappropriate 'counts as' like Terminators = Ogryns. With the fiddling I've done, I don't seem to have any trouble hitting the 1000 point marker when I'm using all of my models, it's just that I have not figured out a build that doesn't look like junk.

Now, I understand that part of my problem is my low target point-value (so I can't have a LOT of stuff), and part of my problem is my lack of vehicles that aren't rolling on a Leman-chassis (so I can't use Chimeras or Hydras or anything else like it). I'm fairly sure I can proxy Lemans as Chimeras if I really want to, but that negates any long-range tank-support I could have.

Currently, I'm fiddling with the following list, but I can't tell if it's garbage or not:

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Company Command Squad, 145pts
-Medipack, 3 Plasmaguns, Carapace Armor

Company Command Squad, 95pts
-Medipack, Regimental Standard

ELITES
Ratlings 5, 50pts

Ratlings 5, 50pts

TROOPS
Veterans, 120pts
-Grenade Launcher, Missile Team, Forward Sentries

Veterans, 120pts
-Grenade Launcher, Missile Team, Forward Sentries

Veterans, 120pts
-Grenade Launcher, Missile Team, Forward Sentries

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank, 150pts

Leman Russ Battle Tank, 150pts

TOTAL: 1000 points

This is still a work in progress, but at least I'm in the neighborhood of what I can do. It's possible for me to combine two Vet squads into an Infantry Platoon (with some of my leftover models added), but I don't know if that's a good idea. Guess I'll go play with the list some more...

These are my feelings:

Without a chimera the plasma command squad isn't going to get to deliver their heat most of the time. So for 115 a 5 man stormtooper squad can at least deep strike. Same thing goes for the grenade launchers, and they come in a sight cheaper. Models available may be a problem, but those doctrines on the vets (who should probably have rides) add up to another squad. Also, I usually see Ratlines paired with psykers for maximum effect. As far as combining the vets into a platoon, it would give you an out to use your other heavy weapons teams, and while heavy bolters are sort of the last thing you need, it is more firepower.

[Ninjaman]

Why don't you? I usually bring at least 8 when I'm bringing any. Unless I'm only playing 1000 points.

Most would say that the hive guard is tougher than the Zoans, the zoan is stronger against missiles than the hive guard, the hive guard is stronger against massed fire. That's why.

[crazedloon]

Most would say that the hive guard is tougher than the Zoans, the zoan is stronger against missiles than the hive guard, the hive guard is stronger against massed fire. That's why.

except that is not true at all for a couple of reasons.

your average 5 missle long fang unit
hits 3.3 times
wounds 2.7 times

with a little rounding (to 3 wounds) that is 1 dead zoan and 1 dead hive guard, because the zoan gets instant deathed and the hiveguard has 2 wounds. So a net of the same result.

If you add terrain (becuase lets be honest there will be some and your guard will be in it) the hiveguards chances of survival gets better while the zoanthropes does not. On top of that the given a lucky or good enough position the hiveguard can be completely out of sight and still be effective because they lack the need for line of sight while the Zoan still needs it and therefore can be seen.

[Ninjaman]

except that is not true at all for a couple of reasons.

your average 5 missle long fang unit
hits 3.3 times
wounds 2.7 times

with a little rounding (to 3 wounds) that is 1 dead zoan and 1 dead hive guard, because the zoan gets instant deathed and the hiveguard has 2 wounds. So a net of the same result.

If you add terrain (becuase lets be honest there will be some and your guard will be in it) the hiveguards chances of survival gets better while the zoanthropes does not. On top of that the given a lucky or good enough position the hiveguard can be completely out of sight and still be effective because they lack the need for line of sight while the Zoan still needs it and therefore can be seen.

Hive guards have two wounds.

[Trixie]

Hive guards have two wounds.

That's what he said?

...

Also, I made simulation of a case offered a few pages back, 'AP3 lasguns cutting Marines to ribbons'. If you have allergy to probability, you can stop reading now

Spoiler

Show

Case: 10 Stormtroopers vs 10 Grey Hunters. To make it advantageous to S-troops, we assume Marines are not in cover, not in METAL BOXES! and S-troops deeps striked perfectly within rapid fire range.

Stormies: fire 19 shots, 12.66 hits, 4.22 wounds.

GH return fire: 5.78 pistol shots, 1.28 wounds.

GH charge: 3.85 wounds (as Rapid Fire guns are obviously withing charge range).

ST strike back: 5.13 remaining Stormtroopers: 7.13 attacks, 0.39 wounds.

At this point, STs lose by 3-4 are swept with big probability.

GH loss: 4.62 wounds, 69.3 points.

ST loss: 160 pts.

If you add the fact that ST unit is as expensive (or more) as most Marine units, Marines in the above example didn't have FNP, Furious Charge, Power Fist, or other stuff they normally take, and specialized Marine units are harder to take out, or hit harder, you'll see that Stormtroopers are not worth it, IMHO, even when they have field stacked in their favor as above.

Also, someone called 5 Stormtroopers '2 meltaguns, deepstriking, for 110 pts', IIRC. Colour me a bit... unimpressed, especially when Guard can take 3 TL Lascannons on fast, skimmer, scoring, scout platform for 130, or fast tank with melta blast cannon for similar.