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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    I believe the "Epic Magic does not exist" assumption is specifically referring to this stuff and the Epic Spellcasting feat required to access it, not simply magic items that exceed the normal caps.
    Well, it does mean that the Tippyverse wizardlords are at least level 23. That's when you can take the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat. It's another point for why this scenario is not the norm, such casters are ridiculously rare in most settings. I don't think you can even get one through the standard community generation guidelines, meaning they all exist under DM fiat.
    I think the Tippyverse is quite interesting, but now I don't agree that much with that 'the RAW world' meaning. It's an interesting setting that explores how some rules interact with each other, but it is not completely RAW.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    I believe the "Epic Magic does not exist" assumption is specifically referring to this stuff and the Epic Spellcasting feat required to access it, not simply magic items that exceed the normal caps.
    Well, it does mean that the Tippyverse wizardlords are at least level 23. That's when you can take the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat. It's another point for why this scenario is not the norm, such casters are ridiculously rare in most settings. I don't think you can even get one through the standard community generation guidelines, meaning they all exist under DM fiat.
    I think the Tippyverse is quite interesting, but now I don't agree that much with that 'the RAW world' meaning. It's an interesting setting that explores how some rules interact with each other, but it is not completely RAW.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Well, it wasn't meant as a serious attempt to disparage the Emperor's efforts...but if you're interested:

    ELH page 123:

    "Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item, with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item."

    ...(several other criteria)...

    * Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or Weapons, material compoment- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items."

    The other modified rules for creation...changed GP and XP costs, etc. aren't particularly relevant. The only reason "epic" enters into the discussion is the TV premise that "Epic Magic" is banned...interpret that postulate as you will.

    And as previously acknowledged, this doesn't change either foundational principle...neither the teleport circles nor the the create food traps. It just throws a wrench at some of the other high-powered things involved.
    Whadda ya mean, Orcs got levels too?

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2012-05-21 at 03:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    {Scrubbed}
    Yeah, pretty much this. Disliking a setting (or other creative work) is fine, even for ill-defined reasons; griping about it vaguely is not so wonderful, but if you make a separate thread, everybody will be happier.
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2012-05-21 at 03:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    You know, for me it just comes out that you cannot deal with criticism of something you like and that's okay, everybody gets defensive once things they like becomes the target. But you need to understand something. I do not, and I mean not, criticise this idea just to show how much I dislike it, critics aren't those smug bastards who go "my tastes are superior than yours and here's why, lick my left buttock" all the time people belive them to be. I criticise TV because I want it to become better. Contrary how it may look like, I do not hate Tippy - sure, I hate his opinions and I wouldn't play with him unless paid, but I do not hate him - I have nothing against him and I wish him well. Which is why I criticise his idea - I hope he's reading this and may find a way to improve the setting, so it would be enjoyable for more people. If I'll start the new thread, what are the odds he's going to read it? Here I at least have a chance to be heard out by the creator of thing I criticise, one of rare times it happens, if I can help him to make his work better, I'll be very happy. Maybe one day he will even use my advice to create real setting or something? I'm not here to make people feel bad about liking this thing, I'm here to point out what needs to be improved.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    Yeah, pretty much this. Disliking a setting (or other creative work) is fine, even for ill-defined reasons; griping about it vaguely is not so wonderful, but if you make a separate thread, everybody will be happier.
    Except for the mods who will close that thread because is reundant with this one nad probably give me another warning, likely resulting in my ban, which in turn will make me very unhappy.
    Last edited by averagejoe; 2012-05-21 at 03:24 PM.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    MoF, you complain that the Tippyverse doesn't have a hook, a reason for a DM to set her game there. I think it does. It's the one setting where a mid level caster who comes up a little short on funds for crafting and looks for a way to make money doesn't accidentally break the economy. Some DMs will ask their players not to do that, some DMs will have society rise up and throw the wizard out if he tries (guilds, governments, etc), some DMs will let it happen and have their WBL wrecked. Some DMs want to have a setting that avoids the problem in a self consistant way, they can play in the Tippyverse.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Well, that's easy to solve. I'll go make the thread myself. "Tippyverse, Criticism of" is the title. I'll point at this thread and you can explain your basic problem in second post. It's not hard.

    As for you rather uhm....novel accusation that I can't handle criticism of an idea I like, I believe I explicitly addressed that in my post.


    @Tippy- is there a way we can get an expansion on the campaign setting you mentioned? I've searched this thread and applied my google fu with no results. I'm curious about the rest of what you've written for it.

    EDIT: Here's a thread for extraneous discussion about the merits and pitfalls of this setting. Take it here. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...0#post13249040
    Last edited by RFLS; 2012-05-18 at 12:39 AM.

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    Default Tippyverse, Criticism of

    For those of you who haven't seen it, this is a break-off of this thread- http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

    Tippyverse is explained in the OP of that thread. This thread is started as a place for the discussion and criticism of its merits and pitfalls. The goal is to prevent a similar discussion from overrunning the OP instead of letting people who are curious ask questions.

    Aaaaand the defending champion is- Emperor Tippy!

    In the other corner, we have his challenger- Man on Fire!

    So yeah. There's that. Man on Fire, feel free to post here. I'm going to redirect any similar discussion here.

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    Default Re: Tippyverse, Criticism of

    My only issue with Tippyverse is the availability of so much high-level stuff, when statistically, very few NPCs will reach even mid levels, and most population centres will see very few adventurers of even 1st or 2nd level. Other than that, it's a much better fit for 3.5's mechanics than anything except Eberron (which sharply limits its NPCs level-wise).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
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    Default Re: Tippyverse, Criticism of

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    For those of you who haven't seen it, this is a break-off of this thread- http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007

    Tippyverse is explained in the OP of that thread. This thread is started as a place for the discussion and criticism of its merits and pitfalls. The goal is to prevent a similar discussion from overrunning the OP instead of letting people who are curious ask questions.

    Aaaaand the defending champion is- Emperor Tippy!

    In the other corner, we have his challenger- Man on Fire!

    So yeah. There's that. Man on Fire, feel free to post here. I'm going to redirect any similar discussion here.

    Sheriff of Moddingham: Threads merged. We try to keep the discussion of a single topic in a single thread. Please discuss the topic civilly in this thread, ignoring posts or people as you please. I think Tippy is perfectly capable of answering both questions and criticisms in this one thread.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Again, look at already published D&D settings - they either give us something special that others doesn't have. Ravenloft and Masque of Red Death have horror in different styles, Council of Wyrms lets you play a Dragon, Birthright has large politics, Spelljammer has bizarre cosmic adventures, Dark Sun is postapocalyptic, Eberron introduces more advanced technology, Mystara has air pirates, Planescape is just so bizarre, Thieve's World and Lankhmar are based on popural book series, even Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance are supposed to have some sort of thing that makes them special - colossal size and how packed with everything it is of the former and very Tolkien-like style of the latter. Greyhawk and Points of light remains as only "pure" standard fantasy and in former's case that's his point and latter isn't as much of a setting as a "theme".
    Yeah. Sprawling megacities fueled by magical factories for every need, armed with gigantic magical creatures that insure a proliferation of MAD set ups, that isn't something special at all. The other settings all have that.

    Your criticism pretty much comes down to "there's nothing in it for people who want to have a large effect on the setting". So what? Plenty of people don't care whether or not they have an effect on the setting, and your criticism pretty much comes down to wanting this setting to be for you and not them.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Use Miracle or Wish to duplicate Forbiddance, and Supernatural Spell that (Wish can do it as long as the caster didn't ban Abjuration... and who does?).
    That's a good option, though not one without the possability of adjudication.

    Specifically, if Wish duplicates a spell, is the effect of wish:
    1) the act of duplicating the spell,
    or
    2) the effect of the spell dupicated.
    (This also has relevance in how one countespells when wish/miracle is used in this manner.)

    I would generally side with your reading, but there is an argument.

    There is an argument on the other side as well though-- "planar barriers" and "local conditions" are not exactly well defined terms. Generally, at this level, you also need a determination on how teleportion interacts with an AMF, which is saddly without details.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscredwin View Post
    MoF, you complain that the Tippyverse doesn't have a hook, a reason for a DM to set her game there. I think it does. It's the one setting where a mid level caster who comes up a little short on funds for crafting and looks for a way to make money doesn't accidentally break the economy. Some DMs will ask their players not to do that, some DMs will have society rise up and throw the wizard out if he tries (guilds, governments, etc), some DMs will let it happen and have their WBL wrecked. Some DMs want to have a setting that avoids the problem in a self consistant way, they can play in the Tippyverse.
    Settings only for DMs, not for DMs and players, worse, made in a way to help DM control players aren't exactly what I would call a good setting.

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Yeah. Sprawling megacities fueled by magical factories for every need, armed with gigantic magical creatures that insure a proliferation of MAD set ups, that isn't something special at all. The other settings all have that.
    Not enough, that's not something on the level of hooks in other settings, that's just a decoration.

    Your criticism pretty much comes down to "there's nothing in it for people who want to have a large effect on the setting". So what? Plenty of people don't care whether or not they have an effect on the setting, and your criticism pretty much comes down to wanting this setting to be for you and not them.
    No, I want the setting to be for...maybe not for everyone, that's not possible, but for more than just very limited group that preffers one style of playing. None of the published settings is for everyone, but they allow various styles of playing, here, as you just admitted, is for those for whom affectign the setting is nto important. That limit of possibilites for players limits the number of people that will pick up the setting. I don't want this to be for me, I want this to be for me and for them.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    here, as you just admitted, is for those for whom affectign the setting is nto important.
    To me, that characterization of it seems to be completely missing the point. Tippyverse is not for those who don't care about affecting the setting, it is for those who want any ability they might have to affect the setting to not strain believability. If these players come up with a way to alter the setting, they want the question of why no one in the setting has done it before to have a better answer than "because they didn't".

    Tippyverse's answer to such questions is typically "actually, someone did do that already, and this is the result." This doesn't mean that doing it again is pointless or won't change the setting, just that it will require effort and resources, and that in-setting NPCs are generally aware of the possibility and will react appropriately.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    <snip of awesome>
    Oh this. So much this...

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    Settings only for DMs, not for DMs and players, worse, made in a way to help DM control players aren't exactly what I would call a good setting.
    I would expect that as a player I would also be bothered by the fact that the DM had to scramble to keep me from breaking WBL. I would love the fact that I could play my 26 int wizard as cleverly as I want without coming into conflict with the DM. When I play I don't like DM fiat, I like being able to take creative action with fabricate, wall of iron, etc.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    If these players come up with a way to alter the setting, they want the question of why no one in the setting has done it before to have a better answer than "because they didn't".

    Tippyverse's answer to such questions is typically "actually, someone did do that already, and this is the result."
    You know, this is a thing I dislike about TV. It makes all the NPCs seem bland, all PC schemes seem like nothing special and makes magic unmysterious.
    "Why didn't someone do this before?" could be answered by "because no one became a level 23 Wizard before you" or "because archmages don't want to spent their resources like that" and all. I mean, is there any reason WHY these superpowerful immortal mages would spend their lives in the material plane, in a city where they can died? If they are so paranoid, so powerful and so well protected, why don't they use genesis, live in their own demiplane and forget about the prime material plane forever?
    I like the magitech concept, but the idea of so many powerful people working together toward a single goal that helps them in no way whatsoever is really really weird.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    People are really asking why human and demi human mages are not just hiding out on demiplanes alone? Humans are social animals, spending all of our time alone makes us very sad. They may be doing it with astral projections or whatever, but they're spending some time with their parents, children, friends, and colleagues.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    That's what imaginary friends are for silly! Interaction with real humans is for the weak and sane!
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    I figure that's why d&d gods do so little - they're busy taking psychotherapy sessions to get rid of all the voices they hear.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscredwin View Post
    People are really asking why human and demi human mages are not just hiding out on demiplanes alone? Humans are social animals, spending all of our time alone makes us very sad. They may be doing it with astral projections or whatever, but they're spending some time with their parents, children, friends, and colleagues.
    Why don't they bring their parents, children, friends and colleagues to their demiplanes, then?

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Why don't they bring their parents, children, friends and colleagues to their demiplanes, then?
    They will. And those people will want their parents, children, friends and colleagues. This iterates a few times, then after a while you have a Tippyverse city.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    To me, that characterization of it seems to be completely missing the point. Tippyverse is not for those who don't care about affecting the setting, it is for those who want any ability they might have to affect the setting to not strain believability. If these players come up with a way to alter the setting, they want the question of why no one in the setting has done it before to have a better answer than "because they didn't".

    Tippyverse's answer to such questions is typically "actually, someone did do that already, and this is the result." This doesn't mean that doing it again is pointless or won't change the setting, just that it will require effort and resources, and that in-setting NPCs are generally aware of the possibility and will react appropriately.
    I have better answer - for the same reason the Greek never used fine steam engine to anything but opening the doors - they didn't seen a reason to. In fact, I think that letting PCs break the setting with their creativity of magic is a great idea, because first, PCs are the heroes, they are supposed to be better than normal people, they are supposed to do something that will write their names in the great book of history in gold letters and what's better than making magical-industrial revolution? In tippyverse NPCs did all the cool stuff already, there is nothing left for PCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscredwin View Post
    I would expect that as a player I would also be bothered by the fact that the DM had to scramble to keep me from breaking WBL. I would love the fact that I could play my 26 int wizard as cleverly as I want without coming into conflict with the DM. When I play I don't like DM fiat, I like being able to take creative action with fabricate, wall of iron, etc.
    It's in DM's own interest to change or ban spells and items that would break the game if he doesn't want that. If he lets PCs explore and break it it's his own fault, there is nothing wrong about you being creative with spells then.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscredwin View Post
    They will. And those people will want their parents, children, friends and colleagues. This iterates a few times, then after a while you have a Tippyverse city.
    So each Tippyverse city is in a wizard demiplane? I never read that in the OP. In fact, since it mentions "The Wilds", it seems pretty clear it's not in a demiplane.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    The way I read it, at least one of them would be. Different options have different downsides and different costs. Different city founders would make different choices. Tippy describes some of them as floating cities, some as more conventional, but in his PoL setting I'd be surprised if there wasn't a small isolationist city on a Demiplane.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Your criticism pretty much comes down to "there's nothing in it for people who want to have a large effect on the setting". So what? Plenty of people don't care whether or not they have an effect on the setting, and your criticism pretty much comes down to wanting this setting to be for you and not them.
    Honestly, I'd say that even in the tippyverse, it's quite possible to have a large effect on the setting. It's just challenging. I'm remarkably ok with that.

    In fact, it seems infinitely preferable to the campaigns I've played where tossing a gold coin establishes you as immensely wealthy for some reason, and at level 5, I'm already bending the rules of society.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Man on Fire View Post
    No, I want the setting to be for...maybe not for everyone, that's not possible, but for more than just very limited group that preffers one style of playing. None of the published settings is for everyone, but they allow various styles of playing, here, as you just admitted, is for those for whom affectign the setting is nto important. That limit of possibilites for players limits the number of people that will pick up the setting. I don't want this to be for me, I want this to be for me and for them.
    The thing is, if there are a great many settings then the settings do not individually need to appeal to many people. The commercial settings have to to make money, but this isn't a commercial setting, and as such can appeal specifically to a smaller group. That's a good thing, and complaining that it doesn't specifically cater to your group - particularly when your group is catered to by pretty much all of the main settings - isn't valid criticism.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscredwin View Post
    The way I read it, at least one of them would be. Different options have different downsides and different costs. Different city founders would make different choices. Tippy describes some of them as floating cities, some as more conventional, but in his PoL setting I'd be surprised if there wasn't a small isolationist city on a Demiplane.
    But my point is why aren't them all in demiplanes? It's a lot safer and the wizard gets even more control. If someone doesn't want to go to mr wizard's personal demiplane, he just mindrapes them. Is there any reasoning behind why this is not default?

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    ThiagoMartell: There very well might be, though some wizards want to show off there powers or help the wilds, or rule a city. They have a goal, and they try to accomplish it, the wizards that live in a demiplane aren't the ones that make cities. If humans were completely sensible they wouldn't fight wars, the point is, they don't. Why do almost all the PC wizards risk there life on a daily basis? The type of wizard that does that gains levels and can create a demiplane risked his life hundreds of times, he's addicted, he can't just quit, maybe someday they will make there demiplane and stop caring, though others will follow in there footsteps.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    But my point is why aren't them all in demiplanes? It's a lot safer and the wizard gets even more control. If someone doesn't want to go to mr wizard's personal demiplane, he just mindrapes them. Is there any reasoning behind why this is not default?
    YMMV, but to me, the wizard who stays entirely on a private demiplane, only interacting with the world through projections and proxies, is not simply playing to its intelligence...it's a sign of extreme paranoia. Like, tin foil hat, lives in a concrete bunker, only thing competing with the stockpile of guns is the stockpile of canned food levels of paranoia. Especially when you consider that this is a 17th+ level wizard, presumably in the top 1% of the top 1% of powerful beings in its setting.

    I mean, I can see plenty of archwizards having them. At the very least, for a highly secure bolt-hole, or even as a primary residence. But basically taking only the people you care about and otherwise cutting yourself off from the entire rest of reality? Unless there's a serious, active threat, that just seems extreme, Int 36 or no.
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