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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    What stone? We're talking Forbiddance here.
    That's even easier to break. Wish in, Celerity->Quickened Wings of Cover->+ MDJ centered on self, no more Forbiddance, all in the surprise round. I'm sure there are easier ways.

    EDIT: Also, Shadesteel golems are a joke. Lets say I want to get creative rather than simply orbing them all to death. I Mindrape a couple of Tarrasques (picked up on a routine jaunt to the Realm of Dreams) stuff them into my portable hole, and release them on all the golems. The ensuing chaos gives me plenty of time to do away with the Forbiddance or seal off the Weirdstone.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2011-11-09 at 08:02 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    That's even easier to break. Wish in, Celerity->Quickened Wings of Cover->+ MDJ centered on self, no more Forbiddance, all in the surprise round. I'm sure there are easier ways.
    Does not work because Forbiddance does not need LoE. It's effect is an area, not a spread. So there is no applying total cover to negate the effect. Sorry.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    In all honesty I think defenses in a Tippyverse or the like operate on the principals of not making it worth it, and mutually assured destruction. Too many things operate well on attack and there is simply no sound way to fortify an area.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Does not work because Forbiddance does not need LoE. It's effect is an area, not a spread. So there is no applying total cover to negate the effect. Sorry.
    The cover is not to block Forbiddance, it's so that my MDJ doesn't disjoin my bags. MDJ ends Forbiddance, end of story. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The cover is not to block Forbiddance, it's so that my MDJ doesn't disjoin my bags. MDJ ends Forbiddance, end of story. Sorry.
    No it doesn't, unless your effective caster level is higher than the effective caster level of the Forbiddance.

    So... no it doesn't. End of story.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    No it doesn't, unless your effective caster level is higher than the effective caster level of the Forbiddance.

    So... no it doesn't. End of story.
    So you pump your CL. It's not like that's particularly hard...
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    No it doesn't, unless your effective caster level is higher than the effective caster level of the Forbiddance.

    So... no it doesn't. End of story.
    Fine magic domain cleric, 9th level domain slot can be MDJ. So your trick for raising caster level can be used on MDJ. And MDJ also disjoins not dispells (against spells the two actions have similar effects but still to different words).
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    No it doesn't, unless your effective caster level is higher than the effective caster level of the Forbiddance.

    So... no it doesn't. End of story.
    There is no CL check for disjunction except for breaking AMF.

    (End of story.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Also, could someone explain in detail how the Fabricate traps don't actually need raw materials put into them every time? I couldn't quite figure that one out!
    Spell in question:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Material Component

    The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.
    The materials are the material component. When building a magic device trap that isn't a one-shot trap, you put in 100* the cost of the material component, and thereafter, the trap just works.

    So the trap of Fabricate (30 gp diamonds) costs raw diamonds requiring 100 * 1/3rd of 30 gp, or 1,000 gp in materials. Thereafter, it spits out a 30 gp cut diamond every time it goes off. Forever. As a 5th level spell at caster level 9, the non-material component portion costs 22,500 gp and 180 xp. So for 23,500 gp and 180 xp, you can make a Fabricate trap that gives you a 30 gp diamond every round forever. After one day (14,400 rounds), you have 14,400 30 gp diamonds, or 432,000 gp worth of diamonds. It takes 47 days to craft, you need to have Craft Wondrous Item, and you need to be able to cast Fabricate.

    The more you put into the effect in terms of raw materials, the more you can get out of it.

    So the trap of Fabricate (3,000 gp diamonds) costs raw diamonds requiring 100 * 1/3rd of 3,000 gp, or 100,000 gp in materials. Thereafter, it spits out a 3,000 gp cut diamond every time it goes off. Forever. As a 5th level spell at caster level 9, the non-material component portion costs 22,500 gp and 180 xp. So for 122,500 gp and 180 xp, you can make a Fabricate trap that gives you a 3,000 gp diamond every round forever. After one day (14,400 rounds), you have 14,400 3,000 gp diamonds, or 43,200,000 gp worth of diamonds. It takes 245 days to craft, you need to have Craft Wondrous Item, and you need to be able to cast Fabricate.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    There is no CL check for disjunction except for breaking AMF.

    (End of story.)
    And here is the relevant line of text that proves your point:

    All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.
    This indicates that once MDJ is cast all spell effects are disjoined automatically, and CL isn't mentioned at all.
    At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    There is no CL check for disjunction except for breaking AMF.

    (End of story.)
    Has nothing to do with a CL check and everything to do with 'cannot be dispelled unless the caster level of the caster is higher than the caster level of the Forbiddance'
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Has nothing to do with a CL check and everything to do with 'cannot be dispelled unless the caster level of the caster is higher than the caster level of the Forbiddance'
    Here's the full quote, from the SRD:

    Dispel magic does not dispel a forbiddance effect unless the dispeller’s level is at least as high as your caster level.
    This says nothing to prevent Disjunction from working normally. Disjoining is not the same as Dispelling.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    Here's the full quote, from the SRD:



    This says nothing to prevent Disjunction from working normally. Disjoining is not the same as Dispelling.
    Unfortunatelly, because of this:

    (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does)
    says that it is exactly the same.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    These cities make me think of Sigil. Huge, powerful, magical, probably immortal, insanely powerful mysterious leader...

    Actually, a good argument for their defense is probably going to be said leader, or leaders. Sure, most of the government guys are going to be merchants and bureaucrats, but at least a few are going to be extremely old and powerful people. Epic level wizards(or lichs)/clerics/whatever. Even without epic spells, full casters at those levels are going to be so far past killable that only a similarly powerful leader is going to stand a chance.

    So we've got multiple layers of defense here...the walls, which serve to keep out the riff-raff, probably regular divinations("Are we about to be attacked? How about now?"), teleportation blocks(which will likely exist if only to slow down the initial strike), mobile strike forces that are going to specialize in quick-strike urban combat, and finally the "nukes", which are the high level casters who come into play if the army fails.

    Ultimately, I imagine it's the "nukes" that prevent full-scale war most of the time. A strike to steal some expensive whatzit(taking the whole building if you have to, depending on how elaborate the "trap" is) makes sense. A strike to take over the enemy city? That should be rarer, if only because it means that both sides are likely to end up engaging in a decapitation war, to see who runs out of government officials first.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    So, question. If Tippy ever ascends to godhood, what would his portfolio be, and his domains?
    Now if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Unfortunatelly, because of this:

    says that it is exactly the same.
    Hmm, didn't notice that since I was looking at Forbiddance.

    It's fuzzy wording though. "As" dispel magic implies similarity but not necessarily identity, and we need identity for a strong case here. As it stands... DM prerogative I guess on how closely the two function to each other, and how that interacts with Forbiddance's wording.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by RelentlessImp View Post
    So, question. If Tippy ever ascends to godhood, what would his portfolio be, and his domains?
    Planning, Artifice, Law, Commerce, Rune.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Magic, Planning, Knowledge, Creation?

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    This is made out of so much Win.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    says that it is exactly the same.
    Incorrect; That line describes how to treat the spell once it is ended (for instance, if you disjunction a Flying mage, he will float to the ground rather than plummeting like a rock.) The fact that Disjunction ends the spell is not a question; for that clause to even come into play, the magic must first be disjoined.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Incorrect; That line describes how to treat the spell once it is ended (for instance, if you disjunction a Flying mage, he will float to the ground rather than plummeting like a rock.) The fact that Disjunction ends the spell is not a question; for that clause to even come into play, the magic must first be disjoined.
    Incorrect. It is, effectively, like automatically making your CL check to dispel an effect. However, Forbiddance is immune to dispelling, unless your CL is higher than the caster's is.

    Either that, or they should have used some other language, because as written, it's similar to an auto-success dispel magic, which is ineffective against a Forbiddance.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Incorrect; That line describes how to treat the spell once it is ended (for instance, if you disjunction a Flying mage, he will float to the ground rather than plummeting like a rock.) The fact that Disjunction ends the spell is not a question; for that clause to even come into play, the magic must first be disjoined.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Incorrect. It is, effectively, like automatically making your CL check to dispel an effect. However, Forbiddance is immune to dispelling, unless your CL is higher than the caster's is.

    Either that, or they should have used some other language, because as written, it's similar to an auto-success dispel magic, which is ineffective against a Forbiddance.
    I'm honestly disappointed that two top-quality optimizers can categorically insist that THEIR interpretation is 100% right, without realizing that the wording is ambiguous. It can go in either direction.

    Seriously. English is not an unambiguous language like Esperanto. It is not logically inductive unless set up with exceeding care, and we all know WotC tends not to take that care. In this case, the key missing element is whether it ends the spell in the manner of dispel magic, or in the method of (a presumably successful) dispel magic. The former would side with Psyren, the latter with ShneekeyTheLost. And as the key words here are in an implicit rather than explicit clause, there is no method of determining which was intended.

    It's simply indeterminate.

    Deal with it.


    (Although even given ShneekeyTheLost's interpretation, if the dispel check is automatically successful then it's automatically successful. It doesn't need to check against Forbiddance's special clause because it's automatically successful. And if it's not automatically successful then we're back to making normal dispel checks against everything, which is clearly not what's intended. The difference between the two interpretations would only come up if a spell effect was completely immune to Dispel Magic, which Forbiddance isn't. It's just more resistant than most.)
    Last edited by sonofzeal; 2011-11-09 at 11:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadePhoenix View Post
    sonofzeal, you're like a megazord of awesome and win.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Incorrect. It is, effectively, like automatically making your CL check to dispel an effect. However, Forbiddance is immune to dispelling, unless your CL is higher than the caster's is.

    Either that, or they should have used some other language, because as written, it's similar to an auto-success dispel magic, which is ineffective against a Forbiddance.
    They didn't need to. Disjunction does not say "As dispel magic, except..." It merely describes how to treat the spell once it has been ended. In other words "treat this as though you succeeded in dispelling it normally." If it did not end the spell, that clause would not apply. So now you are attempting to say that it ends the spell while failing to end it. Your logic defeats itself.

    And even if you choose to read it any other way, it's still moot; pump your CL and you win. You can even exceed DM's regular cap this way, because all it cares about is your CL rather than your dispel check.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    (Although even given ShneekeyTheLost's interpretation, if the dispel check is automatically successful then it's automatically successful. It doesn't need to check against Forbiddance's special clause because it's automatically successful. And if it's not automatically successful then we're back to making normal dispel checks against everything, which is clearly not what's intended. The difference between the two interpretations would only come up if a spell effect was completely immune to Dispel Magic, which Forbiddance isn't. It's just more resistant than most.)
    Only it is an immunity, if your CL is not higher than the CL of the person who put it up. Which is where this mess comes from in the first place.

    Forbiddance is immune to dispel magic unless your CL is higher than the caster's CL. MDJ functions as a dispel magic. Ergo: immune.

    I suppose it's up to the individual GM involved, however I brought it up to point out that there's plenty of ways to negate port n pwn tactics.

    Of course, the whole situation goes obsolete once Anticipate Teleport gets pulled out of the SpC...
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Only it is an immunity, if your CL is not higher than the CL of the person who put it up. Which is where this mess comes from in the first place.

    Forbiddance is immune to dispel magic unless your CL is higher than the caster's CL. MDJ functions as a dispel magic. Ergo: immune.
    It isn't an immunity, it's simply checked for success in a different manner.

    And you clearly didn't read the rest of my post, since you're still inserting words that aren't in the actual text. You added the term "functions as", when the issue is entirely about whether "as" means "functions as" or "in the same way as". The former means you're making normal Dispel Checks with a +10 CL max, if you take it literally. The latter means that, as Psyren previously said, flying casters would drift slowly to the ground.

    I personally think Psyren's interpretation is RAI. But neither is RAW, because RAW is ambiguous.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeal View Post
    I personally think Psyren's interpretation is RAI. But neither is RAW, because RAW is ambiguous.
    In fact I would argue that both are RAW, because of that ambiguity.
    At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Either way, Anticipate Teleport still makes Port n Pwn tactics obsolete...
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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Can I ask about Hallow:Dimensional Anchor? Especially if it is on an enlarged Hallow, and then just make multiples of them.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Yea, but there are lots of losses in a heat engine. And heat engines mostly just turn turbines ANYWAY... the lake or ocean or huge amount of water for a ring gate one can make a goodly amount of energy on its own, ya know?
    Ring gates have a 100lb per day limit. You can't send things through permanently since things extended halfway and retracted don't count.

    Even with a horrendous 10% efficiency, a minimum CL wall of fire has the power output of one of a small hydroelectric dam.
    Plus, they are incredibly thin and can be easily stacked if you need more power density.

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    Default Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

    First of all, that's great!
    I hope I get to read more about points of light.


    One thought why isolation (turtling?) isn't that great.
    Genetics!
    Isolated groups of humans over a long time (thousands of years if I read it right) would get really ugly -> inbreeding and incest.

    Well, it could be that the leaders (immortal caster types) don't care about misshapen and retarded commoners.
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