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2012-05-16, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
While a certain amount of player-induced change is necessary, there are limits if you're concerned with the internal consistency of a setting. If a level 15 character can fundamentally an vastly alter geopolitics to their favor, then why were geopolitics in that state to begin with? There are a limited number of ways to deal with this:
- There haven't been any significant number of level 15 equivalent beings. (In this case, who are the players fighting?)
- All prior and other current 15+ beings are incompetent or uninterested in geopolitical power.
- They don't, because there are enough sufficiently more powerful beings in the setting to prevent the level 15 beings from doing so
Most settings take the last options, which then begs the question of why that significant a number of 15+ characters hasn't fundamentally changed society in any of a huge number of ways (i.e. Teleportation).Last edited by Hecuba; 2012-05-16 at 02:14 AM.
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2012-05-16, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
I haven't yet caught up to the thread (reading it now), but upon seeing this I felt compelled to ask: what about Halaster's teleport cage, from Expedition to Undermountain? It takes for-freaking-ever to set up, but blocks teleportation pretty comprehensively, in or out.
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2012-05-16, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Right. That's what I was basically getting at, that when one says the TV limits the ability of players to change the setting, it means they can't just use the D&D rules to utterly change the setting (possibly as a standard action).
I was just pointing out that that doesn't mean that the setting automatically nullifies the things the PCs accomplish through the game. PCs in the Tippyverse would still have just as many opportunities to be great heroes and leave the setting changed through their quests and adventures as they would in the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, or wherever else.A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
World of Aranth
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2012-05-16, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
That's actually the most efficient option available, IIRC. Ultimately however, it's still bypassed by an equal level spell (wish) and subsequently (or even contingently) brought down with a dispel. Moreover, without knowing where insertion will happen, you can't reply fast enough to prevent further insertion.
And finally, because overlapping and adjacent iterations of that spell explicitly merge to a single ongoing effect, I believe one targeted dispel magic ends the whole deal. (I'd actually have to double check this- I recall the wording for the interaction of an area dispel with ongoing effects being limited to the area, I can't recall the precise interaction of a targeted dispel and an ongoing spell).
Generalized, the problem isn't that teleport defenses don't exist. But, because that the because of the precision and range of teleportation in 3.5, any large scale teleportation defense must be more effective than the spells it defends against. Instead, every defense can be bypassed by a well prepared equal-level caster.Last edited by Hecuba; 2012-05-16 at 06:39 AM.
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2012-05-16, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
"Don't like, don't read" much? Sorry, but in RPGs the premise is the basis, the most important thing that drags people into the game. Here? Here the premise is "the same old only everything you do doesn't matter". Why should anybody want to play that? If the premise is flawed and uninteresting then it should be changed and entire setting should be changed with it.
If it wasn't for that apology, I would give you pretty angry rant.
Listen, I understand that some people just want from the setting a backstory for dungeoncrawls, a setting they know, where nothing ever changes but it's full of fun NPCs that are cool and if you try hard then one day you may be as cool as them. I understand that some players just care about pimping their characters, showing of all their cool gear and stuff. I know that some players like peace and stability of status quo, that they want the world in which they know what to expect.
I'm not one of them.
For me the best fun in the game is to see how my character affect the world, how he changes his surroundings. If I want to kill Drizzt, then I don't want DM to pull things out of his anus to save his stupid drow buttlocks only because it would change the setting too much. Going against estabilished canon can sometime give great results, see this story - they completely wretched the setting but it was probably one of the best, most epic games I ever heard about. Sure, going against things all the time is wrong but the possibility should be there because it may lead to amazing story. Tippyverse removes that, nothing that players will do will matter because next teleporting war will snip it away.
City gets destroyed by teleporting army from another city and Tippy himself said it's impossible to defend from teleporting army. Dead magic zones aren't anything wizards couldn't handle. And what use is ancient artifact? If I cannot use it to have some impact on the world, it's just another decoration, it has no more appeal than in any other setting. There are no plot hooks or concepts players may hold to, there are no threats for them to overcome, it has nothing other games doesn't have except for a little bit more of realism. Look at published D&D settings:
* Greyhawk is the setting that gives you generic fantasy, he was there first and for that reason he wanted to give people what most of them wanted.
* Dark Sun gives you destroyed, dying world in which your players must fight to survive, asking the question how far your heroes are willing to go.
* Planescape gives you this amazing, bizarre city that's unlike anything that exist in the D&D, with all those crazy races and beings and planes to explore, having strong proto new weird feeling.
* Thieves World and Lankhmar allow you to play in worlds of popular series of books.
* Spelljammer combines fantasy and science-fiction
* Mystara gives you sky pirates
* Ravenloft and Masque of Red Death are horror games in typical middle ages or in Victoria-Era-esque worlds
What does Tippyverse gives to you? Nothing Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Dragolance don't. Only in Forgotten Realms I at least have Drizzt to kill to become most wanted criminal, while in Tippyverse my story won't be even sang by travelling bards in inns because conventional means of travel are dead and there are no inns.
But making those sweeping changes is also a chance of making interesting story. Good example would be The Squirt Gun Wars quite fun story that started when players explored the rules to do something very insane. I see no appeal in the game where I know there are things my character is not allowed to do only because it would break estabilished canon, it breaks the illusion.Last edited by Man on Fire; 2012-05-16 at 11:47 AM.
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2012-05-16, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
I realize I probably shouldn't cherry pick, but responding to your entire post would take forever, and this does more or less seem to summerize your problems with the Tippyverse. If I'm wrong about that, sorry.
Anyways, the Tippyverse doesn't remove your idea to change the setting. It just makes it ridiculously hard. It makes it so that if you want your characters to have an exceptional effect on the setting, they have to be exceptional. PCs not auto-succeeding on rewriting the entire campaign setting is not a bad thing really.
If the campaign setting is held together by DM fiat, or defined powers that so far surpass the PCs it might as well be DM fiat, I can understand that being a problem. However, if the campaign setting is kept consistent/constant because of NPCs with similar powers to the PCs simply acting intelligently, that isn't a problem. In such a case, the standard for changing the setting is out-witting the person who wrote the setting. It gives the PCs a nice challenge if they want to rewrite the landscape, and gives them an internally consistent world to work in that they won't accidentally change/crash/wreck if they just want to operate in it.
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2012-05-16, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
It seems as if one of the rules to participate in this thread is to either express awe at how amazing Emperor Tippy is or else try and find a reason why the rules don't mean what he says they mean and the whole thing "doesn't work".
Not that I'm unimpressed, by any stretch, but I'd rather try an obligatory attempt at poking a hole. According to Basic postulate #1, "all Epic magic" does not exist. According to the ELH, any magical item with a market price of over 200,000 GP is by definition an Epic magic item. As such, while Teleport Circles remain, and some of the lesser traps (food and water for instance), some of the higher-end items, including the wish-traps, are illegal by the very rules of the Tippyverse itself.
Ok, with that out of the way...
Rise and Fall of the Tippyverse
One of the fundamental laws of western civilization (generally speaking) is that one needs to be a productive member of society in order to enjoy the full benefits of same. Hopefully, you can generally agree with this premise without seriously digressing the discussion in this thread.
One of the issues I'm seeing with the Tippyverse as described is that it is providing all the "necessities of life" in essentially unlimited supply from the 1st level NPC's point of view. Food, water, shelter and clothing all provided. Protection in the form of an unassailable, indestructable, and (presumably) infallable police force...backed, when necessary, with all manner of divinative and compulsion magics. It would seem, then, that the Tippyverse has the underlying structure to create practical, functional Socialism.
I also wouldn't be surprised to see, eventually, a move towards globalization of the City society. With so much mobility, the Cities would eventually tend towards a single entity.
So then we turn to science fiction, and ask the question of how the Tippyverse will turn out. Will it tend towards Benevolent Socialism (idealized in Star Trek's Federation, where the removal of economic incentive leads to the "challenge to improve oneself" as the driving motivation of human nature)? Let's see..transporters, replicators...sounds promising, if you've an optimistic view of human and demihuman nature.
Or will it move towards an unmotivated, lazy, self-centered society, Selfish Socialism, that eventually is unable to produce the kind of high-level powerful individuals necessary to sustain and expand upon itself. It is to the latter that I find the most interesting potential. Imagine, if you will, that a scene out of the history of the Dune novels is what winds up playing out. People become fat and lazy on the society-provided wealth and comfort. Only a few people ever bother to do anything significant (and as a result, actually gain levels). Vast hordes of pacified L1-2 humans of irrelevant classes clog the city, following the rules to stay out of the dictatorial grasp of the mechanized police force, but otherwise not bothering to do much else.
Eventually, there are precious few high level caster-types left to actually run the show, sit on the city councils, and make the decisions. Over time, they'll die off, and replacing them will become increasingly more difficult. Weed down the populace sufficiently, and it doesn't take much to envision a situation where one or two powerful individuals with a particularly anti-social agenda could decide to 'rewrite the rules' and eliminate anyone who gets in their way. Siezing the reins of power, eliminating the rivals on the council, and using the mechanized police force to do whatever THEY demand. Again, we're taking a chapter right out of the history of Dune (and the ban on "thinking machines" that resulted from this particular era).
Say it all ends in violence? Low-level but determined and charismatic individuals eventually motivate the masses to rise up against the construct armies of the Cities and the handful of lich-lords that command them. The Tippyverse Cities fall into ruin. The circles still work, so the revolution spreads throughout. The traps still work...well, some of them...so society is still able to cobble together a meagre existance. But the ability to actually make them is lost, and a society forced to rebuild from such a catastrophic loss could be interesting indeed.
Particular note taken if in fact laws are passed that forbid the very structure that led to the Tippyverse coming about in the first place. Some areas might intentinally destroy the circles leading to their ruined city to get "off" the global grid and protect themselves. Others might establish inquisitions to destroy anyone who shows sufficient arcane, divine, or psionic might to attempt to impose a new magiocracy (The Githyanki model, without the Lich Queen).
If sufficient resources didn't survive the war, and sufficient people did, it might even be necessary to start reclaiming the "outside world" (scene reminicent of Aeon Flux) and finding a way to compete with those barbarian kingdoms that never gave up on living live the "real way" and are much, much better at it now.
As interesting as the Tippyverse is in full swing, I think it might be even MORE interesting as a falled civilization.Whadda ya mean, Orcs got levels too?
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2012-05-16, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
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2012-05-16, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
I too agree that Tippyverse would work much better as a failed civilization. I find an use for it in my campaing idea, only going with it much futher away - magic wars destroyed civilization, reducing it to buchn of small villages that struggle to survive, many joined raiding bands of monsters, some monsters decided to become farmers. Gods took their magic away, wizards, druids, psions and the others, already almost whiped out by war, are hunted down by inquisition, the ancient knowledge has been lost. Small group of heroes struggle to regain lost knowledge, to bring back magic to the world and now use it for good. Basically Earthsea during Dark Times with a touch of Berserk. Devastated world in anarchy, where tyrants rise and fall, bandits and monsters rampage, people desperately try to survive and players may be the only one to save the world, if they can find the knowledge that doomed it once. Main hook is based on isolation of wizards and similiar guys - players are limited to have no more than two casters/manifesters in a party and only pure ones (no Paladins, Bards, Duskblades, probably even Clerics) to put emphasis on how rare and lonely they are. Won't really work as a setting, but as a campaing it would do well, with party working to bring back the magic to the world, to save it from slowly dying.
I'll need to try this one out once.
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2012-05-16, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
So yeah, couple of problems you have there. How are the level 1-2 peasants going to defeat the construct police force? The power of being able to die like lemmings? Then there's the various means of compulsion that'd be available to the magicrocy if we're going the evil route, not the least of which is monstrous thrall, mindrape, dominate etc. Also, as previously mentioned the casters won't just die. But let's not get into a discussion of the various ways to cheat death.
Even if the higher level mages start dying, new members can be inaugurated into the ranks via mind seed, memory bottle, barghest feeding, psychic reformation etc.
Even if the mages are overtoppled, this doesn't seem to equate itself to all the magic traps suddenly failing, since they're self-sustaining. Unless the people went on a sudden vandalism spree the system should continue to function well into the foreseeable future while alternatives are put into place.
@Man on Fire: I don't quite see how you equate tippyverse with stasis, sure its difficult to effect the essential underpinnings of the setting, but not impossible, you also seem to assume that a teleportation war is imminent, not sure where you're getting that. A example of how you could dramatically effect the setting, without extreme cheese, is getting the vecna-blooded template to avoid divinations, wear some antimagic chains, start killing the mages that don't have initiate of mystra/persisted incite magic.
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2012-05-16, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
The thing is, that limitation can apply in any setting. TV would presumably actually encourage such stories, because the DM is working with a setting that is based on the premise of those sorts of things happening. No, it likely won't happen automatically. Yes, there will likely be repercussions. But in this case, the probable repercussions are built into the world.
Any DM can drop some overpowered roadblock on the PCs; that's not a setting issue. Likewise, any DM can use what the PCs do to drive a story. All a setting like the TV would do is make it so the powers that be are more clearly established, make them something the PCs can learn about, anticipate, and prepare for, rather than arbitrary obstacles.A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
World of Aranth
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2012-05-16, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
I don't quite see how you equate tippyverse with stasis, sure its difficult to effect the essential underpinnings of the setting, but not impossible,you also seem to assume that a teleportation war is imminent, not sure where you're getting that.
Hell, even small things, as becoming legendary hero won't work - no one will hear your legend, there are no travelers who can tell your story to the people, no merchants who can talk how you saved them, no bards who will sing about you...why even bother?
A example of how you could dramatically effect the setting, without extreme cheese, is getting the vecna-blooded template to avoid divinations, wear some antimagic chains, start killing the mages that don't have initiate of mystra/persisted incite magic.
And in a moment Tippy will come and start talking how ultra cool and invincible wizards in his setting are anyway and why those ridiculous things won't work because Great Handbook Of Bullmanure, page 335.
TV would presumably actually encourage such stories, because the DM is working with a setting that is based on the premise of those sorts of things happening.
All a setting like the TV would do is make it so the powers that be are more clearly established, make them something the PCs can learn about, anticipate, and prepare for, rather than arbitrary obstacles.
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2012-05-16, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Regarding the caster-leaders dying off: Over time, through rivalries, assassinations, failed attempts at recovering ancient artifacts in the deadlands. Sure, they don't die off from aging for whatever reason, but things do eventually happen. The point here being is that with an (initially) apathetic populace, replacement candidates will be few and far between.
Mind Seed, Memory Bottle, Barghest...etc... And the mageocrats still in power want to do this, why? Their rivals and collegues dying off will, at least initially, be seen as a boon. More power for them. Then one of them tries to abuse it, and things go south quickly.
As for the revolution? It'll go badly at first. VERY badly. LOTS of lemming-commoners dying. This is what motivates the revolution to pick up speed. The police force has already been scaled back by then (no need to maintain such levels because of the extended peace/calm beforehand). It won't happen right away, but it will happen eventually. Not even the Tippyverse can count on maintaining itself infinitely.
I do think it's an interesting setting in its heyday, but I also think it's got a lot of potential for the underpinnings of a post-apocolyptic setting.Whadda ya mean, Orcs got levels too?
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2012-05-16, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Eh, the DM is the DM, it has an easy way to wipe things out no matter what the setting is.
See, I think you're taking things a bit too far here. Looking back over Tippy's original post, there isn't really anything about omnipotent wizards ruling over everything (in fact, he explicitly says that the TV is not, inherently, such a setting). The Cities are typically ruled by the highest level casters, and the Cities' defense forces are largely made up of Shadesteel Golems led by level 10-15 wizards.
Shadesteel golems are CR 11. Greater ones CR 14. So if you figure a guard unit of eight Shadesteels, that's EL 17. The wizard probably makes it a high EL 17, maybe EL 18. If the ruling council are a group of level 17+ wizards, topping at 20, a City would be a place that a level 17 party could adventure, facing level-appropriate challenges, on the Prime Material Plane, without breaking the setting. If you play it that way, a party of level 17-20 characters, playing it smart and perhaps getting lucky and enlisting allies, could overthrow a City as a difficult but achievable quest.
I'm not saying that's the way everyone would play it. I'm not saying that's the way Tippy plays it. A DM can use the setting as an excuse to lord it over the PCs and prevent them from accomplishing anything, but a DM can use any setting that way. Or, they can use the setting to provide challenges and story hooks. I just don't think it's accurate to say that the setting inherently limits what the PCs are capable of accomplishing.Last edited by Quellian-dyrae; 2012-05-16 at 05:10 PM.
A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
World of Aranth
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2012-05-16, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
But there is no reason to make it easy for him.
See, I think you're taking things a bit too far here. Looking back over Tippy's original post, there isn't really anything about omnipotent wizards ruling over everything (in fact, he explicitly says that the TV is not, inherently, such a setting).
The Cities are typically ruled by the highest level casters, and the Cities' defense forces are largely made up of Shadesteel Golems led by level 10-15 wizards.
Shadesteel golems are CR 11. Greater ones CR 14. So if you figure a guard unit of eight Shadesteels, that's EL 17. The wizard probably makes it a high EL 17, maybe EL 18. If the ruling council are a group of level 17+ wizards, topping at 20, a City would be a place that a level 17 party could adventure, facing level-appropriate challenges, on the Prime Material Plane, without breaking the setting. If you play it that way, a party of level 17-20 characters, playing it smart and perhaps getting lucky and enlisting allies, could overthrow a City as a difficult but achievable quest.
I'm not saying that's the way everyone would play it. I'm not saying that's the way Tippy plays it. A DM can use the setting as an excuse to lord it over the PCs and prevent them from accomplishing anything, but a DM can use any setting that way. Or, they can use the setting to provide challenges and story hooks. I just don't think it's accurate to say that the setting inherently limits what the PCs are capable of accomplishing.
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2012-05-16, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Adventures in the Tippyverse:
Levels 1-5: Explore a fallen city with some wards still active but no people. Effect on the world-Find new knowledge
Levels 6-10: Hunt down a renegade mage (level 10) who, when he was rejected from the ruling council due to low level, went into the wilds to raise up an army of creatures. Effect on the world- Saved tens of thousands of lives
Levels 11-15: Hunt for an ancient artifact from a major city that was abandoned BT. There was a map in the fallen city but without a starting point, the starting point was found with the renegade mage.
Level 16-20: The ancient artifact has the power to disrupt the Tippyverse. There's a city that thinks they can win wars and is about to start them. The players can work with the conquering city or work to stop them.
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2012-05-16, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
See, there's two big things I disagree with you on here.
First...I don't think this should be about Tippy. He's definitely an amazing optimizer, and for sure does things with the D&D rules that I wouldn't be comfortable with in my games (regardless of their RAW legality). But how Tippy runs it in his games, and even what he envisioned in its creation (both of which things that only he can tell us), have no more bearing on its worth as a system than Ed Greenwood's playstyle and visions would on the Forgotten Realms, except to the extent that those things are explicitly integrated into the setting.
So, while I'll agree that your interpretation of the setting is a valid one, and that under that interpretation it would be a poor setting to play in, I don't think it is an interpretation that is required in the setting as described in the OP.
Second is the point about the setting making it easy for the DM to stomp out player accomplishments. I don't think it does so any more than any other setting that includes very powerful beings, be they archmages or gods. The statement that powerful wizards exist, that magic basically works as RAW dictates, and that the wizards understand and take advantage of that, does not make it any less arbitrary when the DM says one of those wizards appears and ruins things. In Forgotten Realms, it could be Szass Tam or Fzoul Chembryl or Lolth or Cyric. In Greyhawk it could be Vecna or Erythnul. In Dragonlance it could be Raistlin Majere. And in any of them, it could be some random 30th level wizard that the DM made up on the spot. It's still every bit as much an example of arbitrary railroading and, in my opinion, poor DMing.
As an aside, my example about conquering the city was just to point out a way that the setting has an integrated way of providing high-level quest hooks and challenges. I think all three of the ones you listed are quite viable, and I don't really see any reason that the setting would prohibit them. Oscredwin gives four more excellent examples.A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
World of Aranth
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2012-05-16, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
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2012-05-17, 02:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Overlapping (non-merging) effects each with a radius greater than 20 ft, coupled with some method of notifying of a breach (sending trap) will at least do enough to allow a reasonable defensive response to dispelling.
If Halaster's teleport cage didn't have the merging clause, it would come very, very close to being functional. It still takes significantly longer to set up than take down (which is a problem) but it would be a very significant barrier to large scale insertion.
As it is, it still represents a great option for securing a structure (castle, keep, underground city), just not a nation or traditional city: if you can cages flush to solid matter that separates them-- walls and doors, for example-- you can ward an area without having the cages overlap and merge.Last edited by Hecuba; 2012-05-17 at 02:59 AM.
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2012-05-17, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-17, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Last edited by Hecuba; 2012-05-17 at 07:01 AM.
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2012-05-17, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
For those who dislike the setting, as in "killed my beloved fantasy warfare in DnD" : guys, that's in the rules. Tippy didn't invent that. It's the RAW.
As for a low-level peons' uprising? L.O.L. The first few hundreds of thousands would die like vermin, with the survivors levelling up - hopefully in full-caster classes, otherwise they're dead meat anyway.
Magic-users in 3e are simply THAT much better.
As for changing the setting... Yes, PCs could. It's just that that requires adventures. Playing the game, not the system.
Tippyverse is the only D&D setting I know that at least looks like 3e magic has existed for more than five minutes. NO OTHER has ever looked at the rules and said "Okay, blank page; what happens when I apply all of those?"
Of COURSE there WILL be Create Food Traps. No faction without those could compete with those who have them. Of COURSE there will be Teleport Circle Networks. Of COURSE... It's the setting in which the rules apply, not one grandfathered in from older editions where non-full-casters were RELEVANT.
If you play by the rules, it's where all other settings end up.
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2012-05-17, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Use Miracle or Wish to duplicate Forbiddance, and Supernatural Spell that (Wish can do it as long as the caster didn't ban Abjuration... and who does?).
Not necessarily. Greece had a working steam engine that they apparently never refined beyond being used to open temple doors. Why? Apparently, for the rest of things we'd use an engine for, they had slaves for that, and didn't see a point. So no railroads, or anything else we'd use such things for today. Social reality and pressures will do funny things with technology by any name. If you don't see the point in improving the lives of all the commoners, you're not going to make that expensive Create Food and Water trap... especially when one rogue can destroy your investment completely.Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2012-05-17 at 07:33 AM.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2012-05-17, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Ed Greenwood made Forgotten Realms based on his imagined stories. Tippy made Tippyverse based on the exploration of the rules. If he would make it to fit the story he wanted to tell, or to give the players opportunities other settings doesn't have, I wouldn't be bringint it up. He made the setting on the exploration of the rules. When you make setting you don't do that, you shape the rules to fit the setting and only change the setting if something in it would make the game unplayable, when reflected by the rules (or just change the system). He showed he has problems with combining fluff and crunch in healthy way once, why should I trust him to don't do it again?
For those who dislike the setting, as in "killed my beloved fantasy warfare in DnD" : guys, that's in the rules. Tippy didn't invent that. It's the RAW.
As for a low-level peons' uprising? L.O.L. The first few hundreds of thousands would die like vermin, with the survivors levelling up - hopefully in full-caster classes, otherwise they're dead meat anyway.
Magic-users in 3e are simply THAT much better.
As for changing the setting... Yes, PCs could. It's just that that requires adventures. Playing the game, not the system.
Tippyverse is the only D&D setting I know that at least looks like 3e magic has existed for more than five minutes. NO OTHER has ever looked at the rules and said "Okay, blank page; what happens when I apply all of those?"
Of COURSE there WILL be Create Food Traps. No faction without those could compete with those who have them. Of COURSE there will be Teleport Circle Networks. Of COURSE... It's the setting in which the rules apply, not one grandfathered in from older editions where non-full-casters were RELEVANT.
If you play by the rules, it's where all other settings end up.
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2012-05-17, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
So, any new regarding that ruling about magic items above 200k? Are the wish traps officially epic?
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2012-05-17, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
So, your suggestion is that, if he wants to write his own setting he should rewrite the rules from scratch? That isn't the purpose of TV. If that is what you are looking for, TV isn't for you. That does not mean TV is bad, or Tippy made a mistake in making it as you are implying though; he is just appealing to a different audience from the one you belong to.
Also, just out of curiosity, the current 3e rules were shaped to fit which setting exactly? What DnD setting is internally consistent with the DnD rules?
Jack's point was to apply realism to the setting, assuming the RAW DnD rules.
Claiming that if he wants to do that he should apply realism to the RAW D&D rules because both things are realism, is a strawman. There are different kinds of realism. TV appeals to those of us who want a certain kind of realism (setting consistent with rules), while having a non-realism elsewhere (non-realistic rules to some degree). That is a valid point.
Don't tell people to change the game if they are happy with the rules of the game.
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2012-05-17, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
I believe the "Epic Magic does not exist" assumption is specifically referring to this stuff and the Epic Spellcasting feat required to access it, not simply magic items that exceed the normal caps.
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2012-05-17, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2012-05-17 at 12:54 PM.
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2012-05-17, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
I'm starting to think that "it's not for you" is just an easy excuse to shrug off criticism.
No, my suggestion is not that he should rewrite the rules from the scratch if he wants to start a setting. My suggestion is that he should think about a hook, something other games doesn't have, because otherwise common players will look at it, say "Nothing I haven't seen before" and pick up something else.
Again, look at already published D&D settings - they either give us something special that others doesn't have. Ravenloft and Masque of Red Death have horror in different styles, Council of Wyrms lets you play a Dragon, Birthright has large politics, Spelljammer has bizarre cosmic adventures, Dark Sun is postapocalyptic, Eberron introduces more advanced technology, Mystara has air pirates, Planescape is just so bizarre, Thieve's World and Lankhmar are based on popural book series, even Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance are supposed to have some sort of thing that makes them special - colossal size and how packed with everything it is of the former and very Tolkien-like style of the latter. Greyhawk and Points of light remains as only "pure" standard fantasy and in former's case that's his point and latter isn't as much of a setting as a "theme".
I point out that TV lacks anything that makes it special, that hook that would make it special and you go "Oh it's just not for you". I'm an RPG player, every setting is for me, I'm as vaild part of the target audience as anyone in this thread and I say why this idea doesn't want me to go and play it and present a vaild criticism for that - that it has nothing other games won't give me. By saying "It's not for you" you just can shrug off any criticism and alienate any group on the market you doesn't agree with. If it isn't for me, as you claim, then tell me, for who it's supposed to be?
Jack's point was to apply realism to the setting, assuming the RAW DnD rules.
Claiming that if he wants to do that he should apply realism to the RAW D&D rules because both things are realism, is a strawman. There are different kinds of realism. TV appeals to those of us who want a certain kind of realism (setting consistent with rules), while having a non-realism elsewhere (non-realistic rules to some degree). That is a valid point.
"If wizards are so powerfull why the world is still on medival level? Shouldn't they use their magic to do this and this and that?" is question of the same realism as "What kind of idiot protects his library by building huge dungeon around it and filling it with monsters? What these things eat, anyway?". Rules have nothing to do with it, he could made the same argument to defend any setting that offers nothing but more bit of realism no matter system in question.Last edited by Man on Fire; 2012-05-17 at 01:35 PM.
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2012-05-17, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy
Well, it does mean that the Tippyverse wizardlords are at least level 23. That's when you can take the Craft Epic Wondrous Item feat. It's another point for why this scenario is not the norm, such casters are ridiculously rare in most settings. I don't think you can even get one through the standard community generation guidelines, meaning they all exist under DM fiat.
I think the Tippyverse is quite interesting, but now I don't agree that much with that 'the RAW world' meaning. It's an interesting setting that explores how some rules interact with each other, but it is not completely RAW.