New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Hello all, I wanted some input on my ideas for some game rules. My main goal was to curb the power of higher level casters for an upcoming campagin. My ideas include:

    Similar to “E10”

    I would have a lot of character growth stop after 10th level. No (or possibly low) HP gains, no skill points, no saves, no BAB. Characters still gain class levels past 10th to receive class features, caster levels, and spell slots. Feats would still accumulate after 10th at the normal rate. Feats with “impossible” requirements would just default to capping the requirement and being the usual level to acquire it; for instance, a feat needing a BAB of 12 would just require 10 BAB and 12th level.

    No Spells learned past 5th

    Spells 6th level and up may still be cast from scrolls, which could be looted by chance or due to plot, but PC’s may not learn them. Higher level spells slot will still be learned as they may be utilized for metamagic. I would like casters to be powerful but not godlike, and I think 5th level spells may fit that.

    Two Iterative Attacks

    Using Wulf Ratbane's proposal for iterative attacks, high BAB would only give access to a second attack. I don't think I can provide a link due to my post count, but the general idea is that at 6 BAB you may attack twice at -2/-2. At 12 BAB it becomes -1/-1 and at 16 BAB it becomes 0/0. Haste, feats, and class features add extra attacks as normal. Due to BAB stopping at 10 I would just use the level of the melee character to hand out the bonus, as long as they would have full BAB with their chosen classes.

    Higher level spells require multiple casters

    I’m still on the fence about this, but I was considering having spells 7th-9th require multiple casters and spell slots, even with use of a scroll (which would just be the “directions” on how to cast the spell). It would essentially make these spells like powerful rituals. A rough sketch of my idea is that 7th level spells need two 7th level spell slots, so two casters would be needed. 8th level spells need three 8th level spell slots, and three casters. 9th level spells need four 9th level spell slots, and four casters. This does not apply to lower level spells boosted by metamagic, so a player may have a metamagic combination that makes their spell require a 9th level slot but can still cast it on their own. I feel this change would reflect the power of these spells as well as provide some opportunity for roleplay as the PC’s may need to make friends with some high level casters or require the assistance of a mages guild to achieve certain things.

    Besides feedback on these rules, I am curious what others have tried in their games to make sure that casters don’t become too powerful compared to the non-casters.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Roa-rha View Post
    I would have a lot of character growth stop after 10th level. No (or possibly low) HP gains, no skill points, no saves, no BAB. Characters still gain class levels past 10th to receive class features, caster levels, and spell slots. Feats would still accumulate after 10th at the normal rate. Feats with “impossible” requirements would just default to capping the requirement and being the usual level to acquire it; for instance, a feat needing a BAB of 12 would just require 10 BAB and 12th level.
    So past 10th level, BAB, hit die, skill, and save differences don't matter? How is that not a massive win for spellcasters, particularly Wizards? The non-casters lose just about every advantage they had, and as icing on the cake a literal reading of these rules would allow Wizards to take Automatic Quicken Spell as their 10th level bonus feat (that's a [Metamagic] feat, right?).

    Besides feedback on these rules, I am curious what others have tried in their games to make sure that casters don’t become too powerful compared to the non-casters.
    Just buff the non-casters. Stick a ToB martial, a non-ToB martial, and one of the psuedo-caster classes (like Incarnate, Binder, or Factotum) together and you have something that competes pretty well with the casters of the world and you don't need to take away anyone's toys.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    So past 10th level, BAB, hit die, skill, and save differences don't matter? How is that not a massive win for spellcasters, particularly Wizards? The non-casters lose just about every advantage they had, and as icing on the cake a literal reading of these rules would allow Wizards to take Automatic Quicken Spell as their 10th level bonus feat (that's a [Metamagic] feat, right?).
    Yes, past 10th all you will get are feats, spell slots, and class features. I feel casters lose a lot more than the melee though since they lose access to knowing spells of 6th level and higher. The way I envisioned it is that melee classes usually have class features every few levels, so they would still be gaining them. On the other hand a wizard/sorcerer/cleric who normally prestige out due to lack of class features would still get the opportunity to try whatever build they wanted, just with a restriction on spells known. In the event someone took one of these caster classes to max level they would still gain their spell slots, just not spells known.

    Maybe my wording was unclear, but for them to take that proposed feat they would have to be level 27 with 10 ranks of spellcraft (as the normal rank cap is level+3 if I remember correctly) since it normally requires 30 spellcraft.

    The setting I intend to use was actually inspired by ToB as that is one of my favorite books, and I have encouraged the players to pick initiator classes. Though there are some who wish to be casters and I do not want to prevent them from that. I suppose I just don’t want the caster players to trivialize encounters with the spells once we are in the higher end of the level spectrum. Would it perhaps be better to just comb through the higher level spells and adjust them?

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Roa-rha View Post
    Yes, past 10th all you will get are feats, spell slots, and class features. I feel casters lose a lot more than the melee though since they lose access to knowing spells of 6th level and higher.
    I guess I'm missing something.

    If you do get spell slots as you go above level 10, how are you missing out on level 6 spells? Aren't those spell slots which you get at level 11+?

    If you said it's E10 and nobody gets more class features above 10 HD, then I'd understand, but it seems like you're not saying that.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    'Murica
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    From what I got they get 6-9th slots, but not 6-9 spells know or available to put into a spell book. So they can meta magic their spells to 6-9 but they dont get high level spells like greater teleport or polar ray or wish that they can just prepare and have.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    I guess I'm missing something.

    If you do get spell slots as you go above level 10, how are you missing out on level 6 spells? Aren't those spell slots which you get at level 11+?

    If you said it's E10 and nobody gets more class features above 10 HD, then I'd understand, but it seems like you're not saying that.
    Players will still get the spell slots for 6th level, just not the spells known for 6th level, so they can still metamagic the heck out of a low level spell.

    You are right that it is not E10, it's just similar to it since most character progression will stop past 10th to deal with what I feel is trivial number bloat on the character sheet.

    Quote Originally Posted by nikkoli
    From what I got they get 6-9th slots, but not 6-9 spells know or available to put into a spell book. So they can meta magic their spells to 6-9 but they dont get high level spells like greater teleport or polar ray or wish that they can just prepare and have.
    Nikkoli has the right idea. You have the slots, just not the spells known.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    That sounds like it massively helps spellcasters, still. I mean, look at blasting, the weakest form of wizard combat ability. They can stick maximize and empower and intensify on their spells, but fighters can't get more HP and saves to resist?

    And I'd say 5th level spells already makes you plenty godlike. 4th and 5th level already gives you Scrying, shadow conjuration and evocation, animate dead, polymorph, planar binding, major creation, contact other plane, dominate person, teleport, wall of force, fabricate, telekinesis, overland flight... Clerics get Divination, Divine power, Freedom of Movement, planar ally, tongues, sending, commune, raise dead, slay living, true seeing...
    And that's just in core. Mundanes can't keep up with that.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Roa-rha View Post
    I suppose I just don’t want the caster players to trivialize encounters with the spells once we are in the higher end of the level spectrum.
    Casters trivializing encounters is an encounter design problem, not a balance problem. It's not particularly hard to put together an encounter or adventure that's still challenging for casters. In fact, if your party is ToB martials and relatively low op casters, you're probably fine in combat. Unless the Wizard has something like planar binding loops or simulacrum armies, a Warblade will do fine. Perhaps not quite as good, but easily competitive (my suggestion of offering a non-ToB Gestalt can help here, and give people access to non-ToB classes without losing power). Outside of combat it's not too tough to plot around caster capabilities, but once you do that it becomes very difficult for non-casters to contribute. An adventure that is built around teleport (in a way that is constructive, not just "screw you no teleporting") is one where Survival and Hide probably don't have too much use. But that's a problem that's a result of martials lacking abilities, not casters having them. So you should figure out how to get the Crusaders and Warblades some stuff to do in a high level adventure.

    The one change I might consider would be pushing people towards classes like Sorcerer and Beguiler that have lists that are fixed when the adventure starts. From a balance perspective it's not a huge deal, but if you feel overwhelmed planning for caster capabilities it limits them slightly without imposing any unreasonably costs or warping things.

    Or just play E10. Though you might still need non-combat goodies for non-casters. Maybe give them Adept or Magewright casting as a quick fix.
    Last edited by Cosi; 2018-09-12 at 09:33 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    On the subject of encounter design, one thing I've done with good success is throw waves of attackers at the PCs instead of revealing all enemies at once, right at the start.

    This gives spotlight to an implicit benefit of ToB and other at-will effect users (DFA, Warlock, etc.) which is that they're able to throw down their big guns repeatedly, while the T1 casters need to pace themselves -- when they expect more waves of attackers, knowing when to throw down the big-badda-boom is a tactical decision -- there are risks for casting a big spell too soon or too late, since resources will be depleted inefficiently if you cast too soon, but if you delay too long you risk HP attrition.

    So basically, yeah, encounter design is a good method for balancing primary casters with sustained at-will PCs.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

    Join Date
    May 2018

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    That sounds like it massively helps spellcasters, still. I mean, look at blasting, the weakest form of wizard combat ability. They can stick maximize and empower and intensify on their spells, but fighters can't get more HP and saves to resist?
    I see what you mean, I suppose I did not think the metamagic stacking all the way through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi
    Casters trivializing encounters is an encounter design problem, not a balance problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft
    On the subject of encounter design, one thing I've done with good success is throw waves of attackers at the PCs instead of revealing all enemies at once, right at the start.
    Thanks for the advice and thoughts on encounter design, I will definitely keep that in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi
    Or just play E10. Though you might still need non-combat goodies for non-casters. Maybe give them Adept or Magewright casting as a quick fix.
    After considering what ya'll are saying I think I will just go with a straight E10, maybe E8, instead of making things overly complicated. If things get too out of hand I'll probably give the non-casters a gestalt like you recommend.

    Thanks for the input ya'll

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Mighty_Chicken's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Brazil
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Post-10th level class features are cool.

    Also, it fills up a nice fantasy if the world's best swordmaster (a Fighter 20) knows a lot of tricks another powerful warrior (a Fighter 10) doesn't, but does not have double the brute force or more chances of killing an army singlehandedly.

    Casters growing up to metamagic their old stuff is also very cool. I think the problem here are caster levels. Systems that try to get away with "linear warrior, quadrantic mage" usually scrap caster level increase away. A Maximized 10d6 Fireball is strong, but not as much as a Maximized 15d6 Fireball, right?

    You could have a feat to allow to get the caster level higher past 10th level, similar to Highten Spell.

    Casters being more powerful than martials isn't as much of a problem. The problem is caster being limitless, or having access to powers that alter the campaign from their original form further and further.

    Of course you might disagree now, but I liked your solution and I'd use it :)
    bock!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Nifft's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Roa-rha View Post
    I see what you mean, I suppose I did not think the metamagic stacking all the way through.

    Thanks for the advice and thoughts on encounter design, I will definitely keep that in mind.

    After considering what ya'll are saying I think I will just go with a straight E10, maybe E8, instead of making things overly complicated. If things get too out of hand I'll probably give the non-casters a gestalt like you recommend.

    Thanks for the input ya'll
    Let us know how it goes!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2010

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    .
    The second item in my sig leads to a relatively small set of changes that, AFAIK, solve all the major balance issues of 3.5e and improve the game on a lot of aspects - w/o cutting down character development options.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    How about you continue advancing HD and class features, but don't advance any progressions?

    So i.e a 20th level binder with that would be able to bind 5 vestiges, but only up to 5th level (or 6th level, with improved binding), a 20th level barbarian... would be the same (which isn't at all a bad thing!) because it doesn't have any progressions.
    Spoiler: List of Things You Don't Need To Know
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    killing and eating a bag of rats is probably kosher.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking), and your humility is stunning

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    I understand the urge to "fix" the issue you describe, but I disagree with your approach.

    The game designers tested quite a bit over the years with the goal of balancing classes. Almost every attempt at at rebalancing for a particular purpose upsets what balance does exist, introducing yet more issues that require balancing.

    I have some ideas, though:

    Hard Progress: Increase the amount of exp required to advance to the next level. In 1st ed. level progression was far more difficult. For a character to advance required twice the exp needed to achieve the previous level. This doubling makes progress more difficult, rendering advancement into the teens exceptionally difficult to achieve. Thus the exp required to advance would be as folliws:
    (Level : Exp Required (Total Exp))
    2 : 1000
    3 : +2000 (3k)
    4 : +4000 (7k)
    5 : + 8000 (15k)
    6 : +16000 (31k)
    8 : +32000 (63k)
    9 : +64000 (127k)
    10 : +128000 (255k)
    etc.

    The experience requirement to advance beyond level 10 made level 10+ characters very rare in 1st ed. Added benefits include the ability to incorporate a new Level 1 character in the group who will be one level behind the group by the time they gain their next level. New players and characters have the ability to catch up.

    But there might be an even easier way for you to accomplish your intended goal. As DM you are responsible for every aspect of your game world. Spell availability is 100% under your control. Any spell you do not like may simply be excluded or modified. But an opportunity presents itself here to make the players of spellcasting characters take magic much more seriously.

    Study Time: A spellcaster begins a session with his spell slots prepared. As the spells are used up, however, they require study to replace. Most DMs, myself included, generally handwave study time requirements. Instead, enforce them strictly. The mage who blasts away will quickly discover he doesn't have time to fully rest and study high level spells between random encounters. This will lead to a more conservative approach to spellcasting, especially regarding high level spells. If you feel that 15 minutes per spell level is too short to deter players from simply wasting time between encounters, I would consider altering it to 15 minutes per caster level required to cast the spell. Thus it would have little effect on time required to study lower level spells, but an increasing effect as the spell caster level requirements increase.

    Study Conditions: Damp dungeons and windswept deserts are hardly conducive to good study. Consider adding a concentration check to confirm each spell's successful memorization. Add penalties for sleeping on damp swampy ground or ice-covered stone. Failure requires the spell be studied again to memorize.

    The above ideas can be used to discourage a spray and pray approach to divine spellcasting as well. The idea behind these suggestions being that a player cannot automatically assume he will have access to major spells when he wants them, forcing the player to hold back and use his spells more strategically, consequently shifting the load of most combat situations to other character classes.

    Indeed, this is the intended role of spellcasters. As support characters the spellcasters can unload when necessary and change the course of battle when facing the ultimate objective of the campaign, but the party must rely upon the non-spellcasters to get them into a position to do that.
    Last edited by brian 333; 2018-09-13 at 12:49 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    IThe above ideas can be used to discourage a spray and pray approach to divine spellcasting as well. The idea behind these suggestions being that a player cannot automatically assume he will have access to major spells when he wants them, forcing the player to hold back and use his spells more strategically, consequently shifting the load of most combat situations to other character classes.
    This kind of thing is tempting, but it's a bad idea. Mechanics that encourage people not to use their abilities make the game less interesting. People also respond irrationally to limited resource and uncertain refresh rates, which will tend to make the problem even worse.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Troll in the Playground
     
    HalflingPirate

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: Ideas for Curbing High Level Magic Power

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    This kind of thing is tempting, but it's a bad idea. Mechanics that encourage people not to use their abilities make the game less interesting. People also respond irrationally to limited resource and uncertain refresh rates, which will tend to make the problem even worse.
    I disagree. The powerful spellcaster can tend to outperform every other class when access to high level spells is unrestricted. This is why the rules time-gate them in the first place.

    The RAW impose limits on the use of powerful magic, but if a DM finds the mages overpowering, and thus overshadowing the other characters in his campaign, he is well within his rights to make adjustments. The trick is to make adjustments which do not cripple any one character or render a class obsolete.

    The wizard was never intended to be a solo front-line fighter. It is, and has always been, artillery support. From spell selection to study time to spells per day, every aspect of the class is about limiting access to powerful magic so the other classes are valued and even required, to achieve goals. The wizard was never intended to be the central character around which the game revolves. Enforcing time-gates such as study time bring the class back to its original purpose: to be a glass cannon with limited ammunition.

    Overpowered mages is a problem I have never had, but then I have always built my campaigns around the idea that every character needs a moment to shine. Wizards are at their best when they are used strategically, not when every other class exists to guard the wizard in his sleep.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •