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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    This will be the last bump, just to remind you to go to the link if you want to read it since it has gotten too long for the forum. Comments are fine either here or there, but if I don't get any more here I'm going to let the thread die and update entirely via the Google Document (Although of course I am more than happy to continue posting here assuming that anybody else shows interest). I remain mostly interesting in mechanical comments, since I have plenty of ideas but am unclear as to how good of a job I did representing them, although I certainly won't turn down setting based ideas. Most of all though I am looking for DMs who are willing to use this in their campaigns and can provide commentary on what their players thought and how well my adventure hooks worked out.

    (Pokonic, you have my thanks for your contributions in both mediums; if it wern't for you I would have given up under the assumption that nobody cared about my work)
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2012-09-03 at 02:11 AM.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    I believe this is within the Thread Posting time limit, if not, my apologies.

    IF YOU ARE THE PLAYER FROM HEROES AND HISTORY, AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, NO FURTHER, PLEASE.




    I will say that this is a FANTASTIC piece of work, if dauntingly long at first glance. Looking through it, though, it's very fun to read, and can be put in most campaign settings, albeit with a bit of handwaving.

    I do intend to use it in my campaign, Heroes and History (log in sig), but I may scale some things down. The hints I dropped about an ancient race are more eight to 12 foot sized, as opposed of the 15 of the Avvim. That said, it's good to have them all.

    Question: you mention one of the chars as a Warblade, but don't have his maneuvers. Was this intentional?

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    One thing I'd do is break up the text. Whilst it does flow nicely enough, I'm used to reading big text. People will look at it more if you space out those paragraphs, and have a break every time a new idea, person, or thought is introduced. I'd double-enter every time there's a paragraph, to give the illusion of more space.

    I may also introduce a section of "how to use this in your game", somewhere near the beginning, as a way to draw in DMs and encourage them to take parts or all of the setting and ideas.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    First off, I am overjoyed that not only is someone taking an interest in my work, but they are also interested in using it. You could make it fit your campaign perfectly well without any tweaking by saying that your giants are Gittim (Or perhaps Gittite-Avvite hybrids) who fled persecution; thereby providing a potential adventure hook for the players as they follow the ancient records left behind back to Hinnom (Or what's left of it, as I mentioned two ways it could be destroyed and hinted at a few others). I'll try to read your campaign log and get back to you with a more specific response once I know more of the details.

    If you want clarification on some minor point that I didn't mention, don't hesitate to PM me; thinking of answers for these things helps me expand my grasp of the concept. In return, I'd like it if you (Which includes anyone who might want to use it) asked me before making changes for your campaign. I probably won't be offended, after all it's meant to be used and I certainly can't stop you, but I'd like to at least know how people are using my work.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    Question: you mention one of the chars as a Warblade, but don't have his maneuvers. Was this intentional?
    I'm unsure what you mean, the only Warblade I mentioned is the Dawn Guard; but they are a group, not a character, and I listed their maneuvers. "Most Dawn Guard know the Charging Minotaur, Leading the Attack, Moment of Perfect Mind, Mountain Hammer, and Wall of Blades maneuvers at Initiator Level 10 and the stance Leading the Charge." I did mention that companies of Avvite warriors are led by Rephaite warblades, but that is also not a character and these things are almost never statted; e.g. how most entries for Humanoids in the Monster Manual include ones with class levels in their Organization section.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    One thing I'd do is break up the text. Whilst it does flow nicely enough, I'm used to reading big text. People will look at it more if you space out those paragraphs, and have a break every time a new idea, person, or thought is introduced. I'd double-enter every time there's a paragraph, to give the illusion of more space.
    Done, it was an unfortunate relic of how these forums don't like paragraph breaks and of course it wouldn't seem as dense to the author.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamBurke View Post
    I may also introduce a section of "how to use this in your game", somewhere near the beginning, as a way to draw in DMs and encourage them to take parts or all of the setting and ideas.
    Edit: Ok, done. Is there anything else you think it needs?

    Overall, keep it up. You've already become the second most helpful contributor and I wouldn't consider it impossible for you to surpass Pokonic.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Well, this marks the 1-year anniversary of starting the project (Really, check the time). I was expecting this to be a quick side work to give me something to do while taking a break from Gates of Heaven, but it's ballooned into a quite substantial project by itself. A few months ago it broke the text limit for a given post, and pasted into Microsoft Word it comprises 22 single spaced pages and 13,775 words. To commerate this I've added an acknowledgements section for everyone who has played a role in getting it this far; both on and off this forum. However, I remain disappointed in how few people have posted anything to say. Is it because the Google Documents format makes it difficult to see when I've made changes and where the changes are, or am I and my work really that uninteresting? Anyways, here's hoping that I get this finished before another year has passed and that I get more than five people to show an interest in it in the future!

    Edit: Shoot, the little clock at the bottom doesn't actually move forward when I'm in a posting window. Sorry, one year and eight minutes!
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2012-11-12 at 02:15 AM.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    5 weeks by my count, so this shouldn't be necromancy.


    My comments:

    • Why is the Spell Resistance so low on the sample Rephaite Soldier? It's usually 11+HD, but this seems to be 1+HD. In fact, by Natural Sorcery, they should have SR 26.
    • The Kohen doesn't have its hit dice split between racial and class hit dice. And its SR is off as well. Also, things are usually rounded down, not up, so these guys should have 16th level casting, not 17th.
    • You didn't mention the Level Adjustment or Racial HD in the Racial Traits.
    • I don't know if 3 levels in Warblade is worth a +4 CR bump.
    • Still working on the Ammi?
    • Why don't the Horim have a racial stats write up?
    • Since the needs of the varying races are so high, how do they provide for themselves in the unforgiving landscape they call home? More importantly, how do they support the hedonism of the Nephilim?
    • How did orcs kill a Rephaite?
    • What are the Ba'al exactly?
    • So Janni aren't Outsiders if this setting is used? Since you speak of them more like Tieflings or Aasimar in your write up.
    • Shouldn't Marruspawn Abominations (one of my favorite Sandstorm creatures to be honest) be beefed up to be at least equals to any Nephilim if this setting is used?
    • How exactly are Efreeti weaker? With a slave caste of non-Genies they can unleash their innate reality editing powers at their leisure.
    • Who does Azazel replace in the Lords of the Nine?
    • How do the varying good realms view Hinnom? What about the Underdark?
    • What happens if a bound outsider enters Hinnom? Something Gated in would be fine, but what about Planar Binding?



    Overall, I really like this setting, but then again I love any adaptations of mythology.

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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Brau View Post
    Why is the Spell Resistance so low on the sample Rephaite Soldier? It's usually 11+HD, but this seems to be 1+HD. In fact, by Natural Sorcery, they should have SR 26.
    Fixed and Natural Sorcery beefed up. I may tinker with the numbers after testing how well it stands up to a level appropriate caster.

    The Kohen doesn't have its hit dice split between racial and class hit dice. And its SR is off as well. Also, things are usually rounded down, not up, so these guys should have 16th level casting, not 17th.
    I didn't split them because they were both D8 and that's how I've always seen it done. Done anyways, with spell resistance and casting fixed.

    You didn't mention the Level Adjustment or Racial HD in the Racial Traits.
    Fixed

    I don't know if 3 levels in Warblade is worth a +4 CR bump.
    Three levels in an associated class and elite array isn't worth +4? What would you suggested instead?

    Still working on the Ammi?
    Yes, I was holding off on some of the mechanical aspects until I got more attention, especially since I don't like preparing spell lists.

    Why don't the Horim have a racial stats write up?
    I forgot and wasn't really expecting anyone to want to play them. They have one now.

    Since the needs of the varying races are so high, how do they provide for themselves in the unforgiving landscape they call home? More importantly, how do they support the hedonism of the Nephilim?
    I guess I wasn't totally clear about that, but the area in which they actually live is basically Egypt from a climate standpoint; it's relatively cool compared to the open desert and the rivers provide rich silt. Combine that with the fact that the mages in Semyaza's school have access to spells that grow plants and animals and promote fertility (Plant Growth for one, plus some custom spells that go unstatted because they are useless in combat) and the other mages can do similar things with the sun, clouds, and earth and you've got plenty of ability to grow crops and livestock. As for the Nephilim, there's at most five of them actually still living among their children; they consume a lot but they aren't that big of a drain. I may remove the whole eating Heroes Feasts for appetizers thing though, since it's kind of silly in retrospect.

    How did orcs kill a Rephaite?
    That's a case of letting the rules slide for the sake of drama; I figured they hacked his legs out from under him with a few dozen blows from their great axes and then did the same to his head. I'll try and change it to something more plausible; the point was more to get Anak in charge of both cities without having to conquer them.

    What are the Ba'al exactly?
    Basically just Rephaim as old and pure-blooded as the Melquarts, but who went into magic instead of the sword. Unfortunately, the way the system works means that they have barely any reason to share power with the Melquarts, so I'll have to think of something to do about that.

    So Janni aren't Outsiders if this setting is used? Since you speak of them more like Tieflings or Aasimar in your write up.
    Ok, that was just a stupid mistake on my part. I just reference the SRD if I need to check the core rules since my physical copies are falling apart and I thought that because they live on the material plane and have the Native subtype that they wern't actual Outsiders. It shouldn't be too hard to fix, since it doesn't effect their relationship too much.

    Shouldn't Marruspawn Abominations (one of my favorite Sandstorm creatures to be honest) be beefed up to be at least equals to any Nephilim if this setting is used?
    I guess you could, but I'd advise against it. The Nephilim are mostly in the mid to late 30s CR wise, with Raamah breaking 40; and if they decided to get up and starting doing things there is basically nothing that could stop them. If there was something at that level of power who actually wanted to destroy Hinnom it would probably already be destroyed, either by the Abomination or through the collateral damage of stopping it. That said, advancing an Abomination to 31 HD and making it Huge would make it a credible, but not insurmountable, threat to the Rephaim.

    How exactly are Efreeti weaker? With a slave caste of non-Genies they can unleash their innate reality editing powers at their leisure.
    Because they're CR 8 and the Ba'als are CR 24 and Wish aside have barely a fraction of the arcane might of their Rephaite contacts. You have a point though, in that having that free of access to Wish has definite setting breaking powers. I blame Pokonic, since including them was his idea.

    Who does Azazel replace in the Lords of the Nine?
    Nobody, he's an Arch-Devil not a Lord. I suppose I should explain; Arch-Devil is the title given to exceptionally powerful and unique Devils (And other Lawful Evil outsiders allied with Baator) who don't really fit into the regular hierarchy. They can be deposed former Lords like Geryon, Gargauth, Adremmalech, and Sammael; totally unique entities that nobody is really sure how to handle like Lixer and Glasya (and Fierna to a lesser extent due to her status as formal co-ruler of Phlegthos but practical subservience to her father); and people that Asmodeus wants to keep an eye on and occasionally call in favors from without having them formally affiliated with him like Eblis and the other Semyaza (This is where Azazel falls).

    How do the varying good realms view Hinnom? What about the Underdark?
    I'll add a section on the Underdark, but the opinion of the various good realms is up to the DM who uses it; since it's supposed to be insertable into a pre-existing campaign as sort of a lost land where the players can adventure without having to worry about adapting it too much to their campaign. Would it be sufficient to add a bit about how most common races would think about it?

    What happens if a bound outsider enters Hinnom? Something Gated in would be fine, but what about Planar Binding?
    I'm not sure. Just letting it in would be going against the spirit of the rule, which is to prevent Outsiders from entering; but on the other hand they don't have any trouble entering anti-magic fields, which also prevent the spell from being cast. I think I'll go with allowing them to enter but the binding will be broken if they spend too much time in there. Part of the idea was to make Gate less awesome, but I suppose you can have a Gated outsider if you go to the trouble of bringing it in outside of Hinnom and then travelling conventionally to where you need it.


    Overall, I really like this setting, but then again I love any adaptations of mythology.
    I'm glad to hear it. I'll be sure to add you to the credits and do what I can to implement your suggestion.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    I blame Pokonic, since including them was his idea.

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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Three levels in an associated class and elite array isn't worth +4? What would you suggested instead?
    I never personally agreed with the elite array giving a +1 bump in the first place, but that's one of the reasons I'm a Pathfinder man over a 3.5 man. I suggest that you get some kind of playtest to see if the bump as it is right now is appropriate. I find that the CR adjustment guidelines aren't as realistic as they should be (5 levels in Fighter is not a +5 CR bump. -_- )


    I guess I wasn't totally clear about that, but the area in which they actually live is basically Egypt from a climate standpoint; it's relatively cool compared to the open desert and the rivers provide rich silt. Combine that with the fact that the mages in Semyaza's school have access to spells that grow plants and animals and promote fertility (Plant Growth for one, plus some custom spells that go unstatted because they are useless in combat) and the other mages can do similar things with the sun, clouds, and earth and you've got plenty of ability to grow crops and livestock. As for the Nephilim, there's at most five of them actually still living among their children; they consume a lot but they aren't that big of a drain. I may remove the whole eating Heroes Feasts for appetizers thing though, since it's kind of silly in retrospect.
    I assumed something of the sort, it just wasn't spelled out.


    That's a case of letting the rules slide for the sake of drama; I figured they hacked his legs out from under him with a few dozen blows from their great axes and then did the same to his head. I'll try and change it to something more plausible; the point was more to get Anak in charge of both cities without having to conquer them.
    I mean, if there was a legendary Orc who could go toe to toe with one the Rephaim, that'd be one thing. But just a random bunch of orc bandits?


    Basically just Rephaim as old and pure-blooded as the Melquarts, but who went into magic instead of the sword. Unfortunately, the way the system works means that they have barely any reason to share power with the Melquarts, so I'll have to think of something to do about that.
    Alrighty. Was curious because they were more mentioned in passing than anything.


    Ok, that was just a stupid mistake on my part. I just reference the SRD if I need to check the core rules since my physical copies are falling apart and I thought that because they live on the material plane and have the Native subtype that they wern't actual Outsiders. It shouldn't be too hard to fix, since it doesn't effect their relationship too much.
    I didn't assume it would be one, it was just something that stuck out when I was reading.


    I guess you could, but I'd advise against it. The Nephilim are mostly in the mid to late 30s CR wise, with Raamah breaking 40; and if they decided to get up and starting doing things there is basically nothing that could stop them. If there was something at that level of power who actually wanted to destroy Hinnom it would probably already be destroyed, either by the Abomination or through the collateral damage of stopping it. That said, advancing an Abomination to 31 HD and making it Huge would make it a credible, but not insurmountable, threat to the Rephaim.
    Well, the Abominations are supposed to be civilization enders who are chained in dark places that have no names and are never meant to ever again see the sky above. And there is only supposed to be one, with rumors of more existing. So I don't see how Hinnom would cease to be if they came after the chaining of the creature(s). And it'd be a neat hook if the Abomination(s) are hidden evidence that the Grigori had spread their seed prior to the creation of the Nephilim.


    Because they're CR 8 and the Ba'als are CR 24 and Wish aside have barely a fraction of the arcane might of their Rephaite contacts. You have a point though, in that having that free of access to Wish has definite setting breaking powers. I blame Pokonic, since including them was his idea.
    Maybe the Nephilim have some potent artifact that prevents Wish or Miracle spells from functioning properly or something to that end?


    Nobody, he's an Arch-Devil not a Lord. I suppose I should explain; Arch-Devil is the title given to exceptionally powerful and unique Devils (And other Lawful Evil outsiders allied with Baator) who don't really fit into the regular hierarchy. They can be deposed former Lords like Geryon, Gargauth, Adremmalech, and Sammael; totally unique entities that nobody is really sure how to handle like Lixer and Glasya (and Fierna to a lesser extent due to her status as formal co-ruler of Phlegthos but practical subservience to her father); and people that Asmodeus wants to keep an eye on and occasionally call in favors from without having them formally affiliated with him like Eblis and the other Semyaza (This is where Azazel falls).
    Ah; I'm not that deeply versed in the Nine Hells. I just could have sworn that the term "Arch-Devil" only applied to the Lords of the Nine.


    I'll add a section on the Underdark, but the opinion of the various good realms is up to the DM who uses it; since it's supposed to be insertable into a pre-existing campaign as sort of a lost land where the players can adventure without having to worry about adapting it too much to their campaign. Would it be sufficient to add a bit about how most common races would think about it?
    I meant more like the Seven Heavens and such. But a bit about how common races would think of Hinnom would be cool to see.

    I'm not sure. Just letting it in would be going against the spirit of the rule, which is to prevent Outsiders from entering; but on the other hand they don't have any trouble entering anti-magic fields, which also prevent the spell from being cast. I think I'll go with allowing them to enter but the binding will be broken if they spend too much time in there. Part of the idea was to make Gate less awesome, but I suppose you can have a Gated outsider if you go to the trouble of bringing it in outside of Hinnom and then travelling conventionally to where you need it.
    I'm just devil advocating the limits on magic you've imposed since Hinnom is inserted into a greater world as a whole and is not a plane onto itself. So natural curiosity would stem from where it's rules and laws collide with those of the world around it.



    I'm glad to hear it. I'll be sure to add you to the credits and do what I can to implement your suggestion.
    I don't think I've contributed enough to deserve that kind of honor.

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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    I did this a few days ago, but for the sake of those who don't periodically check the document for updates I have boosted the power level of the Dawn Guard without increasing their CR. This may or may not be the last update until the 27th.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    I have finally gotten around to reading this and am very impressed. Are you going to finish the Melquart or update the google document?

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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    First, I am pleased to have earned the approval of such a well-regarded reviewer. I do intend to finish the Melquart and Ba'al, and in fact had a stat-line that I ended up scrapping, but I still need to do the Kohen's spells and the Shedim before I get around to it. I am still updating the Google document, but it's been small, not easily noticed, things lately.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Very long read put me off slightly. It also needs a little bit more return key, but maybe that's just me.

    What I will say is that, due to their high ratio of racial:class levels, I'm not sure that these creatures will actually challenge a party with a level equal to their CR. Sure, they have a lot of hitpoints and high saves... but their damage output is low enough to shrug off, and the DCs on their spells (if they have them) are going to be pretty low.

    Horite Tribesmen, for example, also have a low enough will save to do some pretty nasty things to them easily. Of course, your players won't necessarily know this without metagaming, but it could still take it down quickly if they worked it out.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Damage output seems fine to me, compare a Rephaite Warrior to a Storm Giant of more or less the same CR; without Power Attack a full attack does 129 damage to the Storm Giant's 105 and Power Attacking for full (Which it can easily do because of Shock Trooper) it's 215 to the Storm Giant's 189. The Avvite Warrior doesn't compare quite as favorably to the Frost Giant (32 vs. 47); but its superior durability makes it about equal and it also has a bit more room for Power Attacking. The Dawn Guard is an initiator, who usually have trouble matching the damage that comparably leveled things can put out with 3 or 4 attacks, but I think being able to break through things with Elder Mountain Hammer or make touch attacks with Emerald Razor is enough compensation. The Horite Tribesman has 10 damage over the Hill Giant and significently better saves, although Will is always a weakness of big beatsticks like this. Se'irm I'll give you if you can find a CR 11 monster that averages much more than 61 damage on a full attack and Avvite Bowman I'll certainly give you, but that's mostly because archery just isn't very good. The Shedim are still in progress, so I didn't count them.

    Casting wise, the Kohen has the same save DCs as the Planetar, albeit with no 9th level spells, but I gave it a Periapt of Wisdom +6 anyways so now its best spells should be at DC 27. I'll admit that the Ammi needs work though, since DC 20 isn't too difficult for a level appropriate party.

    Format, I've already split it up quite a bit; so I'd like to know where you think more spaces are needed. I suppose the length can be a bit daunting, but ~14,000 words isn't really all that much.

    Overall I appreciate the commentary, even if it was negative, but I'd also like to know what you were using as a basis of comparison to determine that damage output was too low.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Overall I appreciate the commentary, even if it was negative, but I'd also like to know what you were using as a basis of comparison to determine that damage output was too low.
    This is just me going "How easy is it for a sorcerer, cleric, rogue and fighter of appropriate level to take this thing down?" I'll admit, I forgot about full-round attacks, but a magicked-up fighter can have enough AC to be getting along with the lower-BAB attacks.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    That's true, but since PCs can vary so much in power (For instance, the sample fighter in the DMG will be hit by the Rephaite Soldier on a 2, 2, 6, and 11 and will only hit on a 14, 19, 20 at a level where the Soldier presents a credible fight for the entire party; although of course said fighter is very weak for its level) I find it easier to compare them to already existing monsters that fill similar roles and don't have a reputation for being excessively over or underpowered.

    Edit: Actually, I'll open it up to the other viewers to say what they think. Are these giants underpowered for their CR?
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2013-01-30 at 03:47 AM.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post

    Edit: Actually, I'll open it up to the other viewers to say what they think. Are these giants underpowered for their CR?
    It's been awhile since my first read and I don't have the time right this second to look at them again, but I will tell you that Giants, on the most part, are underpowered for their CR.

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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Very well then, every monster has had its CR decreased by 2.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    To mark the 7,500th view of the thread, making it the 51st most viewed in the subforum (Someday I will pass GOH's 5th...), I figured I'd bump it back up and tell everyone that the Melquart is now in progress; as I've gotten some views of the thread since I started it but nobody has actually gone to the Google document. Also, check out some of the unique equipment, although the Grigori Wings still need pricing, and the backstories of the Grigori.

    Points of interest:
    Yes, I know the AC is pitiful. I don't know what enhancement bonus its armor and shield will have yet, so they aren't included.
    It is deliberate that it cannot cast 9th level spells. I had in mind something similar to a dragon, where its spellcasting abilities are potent but secondary to its physical skills.
    The rings and amulets. They should ideally be useful to something this powerful, not massively expensive, and not just statboosters. So far I have not found anything especially useful in the SRD, so I'm going to dig into other sourcebooks and see if anything seems interesting.
    I also have some ideas for their signature gear, but am currently keeping that close to my chest as I refine it. Suffice to say, it should be interesting.

    Please keep up the interest, and if you want to discuss a specific point with me the document is always open.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Since the mechanical side is mostly finished and I know people are still reading this, I am going to specifically ask for DMs willing to do some play-testing of both the setting and the monsters (Not to disparage SamBurke, but I haven't heard from him in months and in any event having more than one group would be very useful). I will collaborate to the best of my ability and am more than willing to help adjust it for specific campaigns while keeping the essential spirit intact; but this really is important and something that needs to be done before I can call it finished. Even if restarting Gates of Heaven probably won't happen, starting another project would be nice and it is something that requires me to be finished here first.

    Thank you for your consideration, and even if you don't take me up on it at least post something so I don't feel like I'm talking to myself all the time.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Okay, I am going to try and make some sense of this. People are still reading the thread, as I generally get about 10 views a day. However, nobody, or at least very few people, are actually opening the document; otherwise I'd see. This is supported by the fact that I took it off line for a week to see if there would be any reaction and received none. Therefore I conclude that people are following the link in my signature but not actually following up on it; and as they are not actually reading it are not posting in the thread.

    In addition, I hypothesize that people are either taking my signature to heart and not posting due to not having anything constructive to say or not posting due to a fear of necro-posting. In the case of the first, there must be a problem with my writing if nobody can think of something interesting to say about it; while the second seems unlikely due to the fact that I do periodically post here. Furthermore, if somebody had something constructive to say but was deterred by a fear of necro-posting they would most likely send me a Private Message; which I have not received. As such, the most likely conclusion is that the first hypothesis is the correct one and should therefore be addressed in some fashion.

    My ultimate conclusion is that the problem seems to lie in my writing. However, I cannot determine what is wrong with my writing unless somebody points it out, which is where the dilemma appears. If my work is too dull to attract attention then I cannot receive the attention necessary to make it more appealing to my audience. It is, however, just as possible that people are enjoying my writing to the point where they cannot see any flaws with it and therefore cannot provide constructive commentary. Does this more or less describe the situation as my readers perceive it?
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2013-09-29 at 11:15 PM.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    I am posting on the account of you graciously taking the time to review my Havoc Knight, thank you.

    Anyway, I'll go over some of the monster mechanics because, at least to me, you seem to have the setting worked out. If you need me to review that just let me know, I'll find the time.
    Keeps in mind these are mostly opinion based, I won't claim to be an expert at balancing monsters. I should also note that i don't what is more updated, the monsters in the google doc or the mosnter stats you posted in this thread.

    On the Rephaite Soldier, according to the google doc:
    The biggest problem I see with this monster is it's SR of 36. Unless I am horribly mistaken on how spell resistance works (which is always possible), a level appropriate caster for the CR of 12 (that is to say, i 12th leve lWizard) could only possibly overcome the SR on a roll of 20, with feats in Spell penetration.
    I believe that the formula for calculating SR, (as given by the monster Manual) is 10 (or 11) + the CR of the creature, not HD, that would mean it scales by size which makes no sense.

    On the Melquart, as written in the google doc
    This monster screams "big baddass boss monster", which I like, but I have a few comments.
    This thing has more HP than the Tarrasque, more AC than a greatwyrm gold dragon, has access to 9th level sorcerer and cleric spells, and SR of 40 (which can only be overcome by a 20th level caster on a roll of 20, or 16 if they took the appropriate feats), access scores of epic items, doesn't miss in melee barring a natural 1, with the physical damage to make an Infernal wet himself, and on top of that, special qualities and saves that make epic spells seem like cantrips. And this thing only has a CR of 24?

    Granted, this is meant to be an epic creature. But I feel like this thing could just walk over about 4 great wyrm gold dragons at once while sipping some infernal tea

    Ba'al still looks like it's WiP so I'll skip it for now if you don't mind, but from what I can, it's abilities are a little more on par with CR 24 than the Melquart

    well unfortunately this is where I have to stop, because i have another errand I need to attend to, I'll basically sum up.

    Reading the opinions expressed earlier in the post it seems as though the general consensus is that the creatures were under powered for their CR? Meanwhile i'm sitting here having nightmares about a DM ever throwing these against me.
    But take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm an amateur homebrewer at best.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    I'm in the middle of something so I'll have to get back to you with more extensive commentary, but the Spell Resistance was based off Tanuki Tales' claim earlier on this page that it was based on Hit Dice. Plus, lots of spells don't allow Spell Resistance at all, it has to spend a standard action to lower its resistance to receive buffs, and a suitably prepared caster can crank their ability to break through it up to the point where no practical levels of Spell Resistance can hold back.

    As for the Melquart, I have toned down some of its abilities; but it suffers from being essentially a melee monster at epic levels. Sure it can tear just about anything of appropriate Challenge Rating apart if it gets to melee, but it will lose a spell fight and will have trouble actually getting in to melee range. There's a reason why the Tarrasque is considered such a joke. Ironically, it was made so powerful so that it could compete with the Ba'al, which will have all the earthshaking power one will expect from an epic caster, yet you consider the latter to be the weaker. However, I am considering lowering its Cleric casting to 8's; which will cut out a lot of its casting power.

    I also think you are over-rating its special qualities. Yes, going from Giant to Outsider is a big power boost; but it can already cast Persistent Divine Power, which more than adequately mimics most of the effect. Divine Grace is certainly nice, especially when combined with all good saves from Outsider hit dice and high charisma, but Sorcadin builds get most of that and nobody calls them broken. However, it is probably the most questionable. Energy resistance basically doesn't matter, because any blaster at this level is going to be throwing around 200+ damage a round and if they use fire will be using Searing Spell to ignore the immunity. Damage Reduction can take a good chunk out of a full attack, but really anyone who can't get Align Weapon cast before the fight probably deserves it. Timeless Body and the +4 to all stats only amounts to +2 attack, AC, Initiative, and saves; +3 damage; a couple of extra spells; and some skill and hit points; nothing all that major. Finally, the SLAs are mostly utility stuff or redundant with its items except for Blasphemy, which I changed to Unholy Blight, and Stoneskin, which is only useful against enemies that can bypass its DR and will only withstand a couple of hits.

    The items are certainly strong, no question about that, but the sword only allows it fight with sword and shield without crippling its offense, the armor's miss chance is something that high level characters are expected to have, armored casting is cool but not really all that great, the shield's rays really don't do all that much damage, and the cape (which has been weakened) is an absolute necessity considering how important flight is.

    Do you have anything about the Avvim, Shedim, and Se'irm? Also, I am interested in what people have to say about the setting; but don't feel too obligated to give extensive commentary about that.

    Edit: More extensive commentary provided.
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2013-10-04 at 07:20 PM.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Just thought I'd finish my PEACH, and support my earlier claims with a little but more reasoning. because I see you responded.

    I am actually going to start off by saying that the Melquart having an SR of 40 is not that much a stretch for a CR 24 (well, now he's CR 26) creature, assuming you wanted the creature to be highly magic resistant. But I though I should quote this tidbit below, because determining SR by the creatures HD is not always correct.

    Spell Resistance: If you choose to give your monster this ability, you'll probably want to set the resistance number equal to the creatures CR +11. This means that a character of a level equal to creatures's will have a 50% chance to overcome the monster spell resistance (barring the Spell Penetration feat) ... If want a highly magic resistant set the monster's spell resistance higher than CR +11 ... For each point of difference, you'll change the chance of successfully overcoming spell resistance by 5% -Monster Manual 1, pg 300
    Basically what I want to say is that, after re-reading how SR works,, i can say that the SR is fine.
    However, with a fly speed of 100ft [good] I don't think he'll have problems getting into melee, and has a pretty good chance of winning initiative.
    Also, I think his saves are really high still, you mentioned something about Sorcadins getting good saves cause of high charisma and divine grace? they still don't get 50+ on all saves.

    And I hate to do this again before I'm finish so I'll probably sound like a jerk just by reading the above comments. But I must go again unfortuanately ... I'll get back to. I still have more stuff to say and my statements are not complete.

    Keep up the good work.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    I'm not the most experienced at PEACHes, but here goes:

    Avvite Warhorn: These massive brass instruments [...] can be heard from 1d3 miles away for the purposes of bardic music and listen checks [snip]
    This could make the bardic music ability more than a little overpowered- it could let a bard grant bonuses to literally an entire army. It's probably okay if mass warfare never occurs though.

    Apart from that, I'm not very good at judging the balance of monsters. But I do think that the Melquart is a little overpowered for CR 26. Its saves will automatically succeed against most attacks by a similarly-leveled adventuring team, and its equipment is extremely powerful. And most spells will be useless against it due to its high SR, if the party is at level 23 or lower, so if it's a "boss" monster or something it will be hard to affect with spells. Same goes for the Kohen- SR 36 is somewhat high.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    The warhorn isn't entirely without precedent, look up the alphorn in Song and Silence. Plus, the only song that effects everyone that can hear it is inspire courage, it's a mostly lawful society so there won't be too many bards anyway let alone high level ones, and the bonus it provides isn't that great anyways.

    Also, I cut the Melquart's flight speed down to 50 (Average) and removed Divine Grace so now its saves are in the low 40s. This is still quite good but I don't think is unbeatable. I am considering having them lose the Outsider hit dice, but considering that all half-fiends get it that might be a bit odd.

    Anyways, this is why I need playtesters; to see how well the monsters actually stack up against level appropriate parties.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Well, I'm coming up on the two year anniversary and I have sworn to have this done by then. Luckily, all that requires is half of the Ba'al's spell list and some of their unique items. However, I've come up with an idea that I think is very interesting, if potentially overpowered, and as such am posting it here to see what you all think.

    Mark of the Grigori’s Puissance: Mere blades, no matter how potent, cannot seriously hope to lay low one of the god-like Grigori. This six-pointed silver star gives the bearer a fraction of this, they cannot be permanently killed by any form of physical damage except that of a Greater Deity or Cosmic Entity, one of the Grigori, a Nephilim using a specially enchanted weapon, or someone with a Peerless Sword of Azazel or a weapon from the personal panopoly of a Grigori. If slain, they will return in #d20*5 years; with # being the amount of times they have already died. Magic may still kill them.

    I'm somewhat conflicted by this, as I like the idea of a creature so steeped in magic that conventional weapons are basically worthless while at the same time leaving open specific weaknesses that can be exploited, which could lead for interesting plot hooks. However, melee gets shafted enough at high levels, let alone low epic, and there's no shortage of monsters much more powerful than this that don't have anything quite this cool. Do you think some form of regeneration would be more appropriate?
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (Now done but still open to PEACH)

    Sorry to the nineteen people who bothered to look at this since my last post, but I totally forgot to have it finished on time and had to do the skill points for many of the stat blocks; an always tedious task. However, it is done now; no more content will be added. Revisions are still open if anyone cares enough to comment, as are applications for DMs seeking to use it in their campaign.

    Thanks to: Debihuman, Dicefreaks (and Serge in particular) Eldan, Illwinter Games, Jormengand, Pair O'Dice Lost, Pokonic, RationalGoblin, SamBurke, Tanuki Tales, The Familiar Raven, The Tygre, Troll Bräu, and Unosarta. All of you contributed in some fashion to making this what it is, and for that I am grateful. If you think you deserve to be in here and I missed you, please let me know.

    Final Length: 34 pages and 19,530 words.
    Last edited by Iamyourking; 2013-11-12 at 05:07 AM.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Well, I guess that was anticlimactic. Doesn't anyone have anything to say?
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamyourking View Post
    Well, I guess that was anticlimactic. Doesn't anyone have anything to say?
    It's an impressive work, in any case.
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    Default Re: The Sons of the Fallen (WIP)

    Haven't heard from you lately. Do you have anything to say about the final pieces?
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