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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    If this is the case, he is clearly far too powerful for this competition. Especially if we don't have any known limits on said protections.
    Here is the scene.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourcery
    "'How much longer do I have?"
    Death pulled a large hourglass from the secret recesses of his robe. The two bulbs were enclosed in bars of black and gold, and the sand was nearly all in the bottom one.
    OH, ABOUT NINE SECONDS.
    Ipslore pulled himself up to his full and still impressive height, and extended the gleaming metal staff towards the child. A hand like a little pink crab reached out from the blanket and grasped it.
    "Then let me be the first and last wizard in the history of the world to pass on his staff to his eighth son," he said slowly and sonorously. "And I charge him to use it to-"
    I SHOULD HURRY UP, IF I WERE YOU...
    "-the full," said Ipslore, "becoming the mightiest-"
    The lightning screamed from the heart of the cloud, hit Ipslore on the point of his hat, crackled down his arm, flashed along the staff and struck the child.
    The wizard vanished in a wisp of smoke. The staff glowed green, then white, then merely red-hot. The child smiled in his sleep.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Superman could do it if he moves fast enough. The fourth hokage's sealing technique could well work (but then again, possibly not). Dbz characters would probably totally annihilate him in no time flat (those guys are probably too powerful for this competition, imo). A dalek would probably kill him provided it got a shot in before it was destroyed by coin - so in practice, I guess it would lose. Samus's weapons might be too unexpected and powerful for coin to be shielded against, also phazon. The hulk might win against that sort of enemy, but I don't know enough about it to say. The ponies would win him over with the power of friendship. 40K weapons might also be too weird and powerful for coin to defend against. Jack Rakan sounds like he might be able to win (again, don't know enough about it).

    A lightning bolt is pretty damn powerful. But it's nothing to some of the characters in this tournament.
    Last edited by Top cat; 2011-12-13 at 11:38 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Here is the scene.
    Hmm was it Coin or the staff that protected him there? I mean have we seen any instances of him being harmed by ...well anything? If so we can at least extrapolate a bit. Even instances of him being afraid or worried about something gives us SOME insight into what may or may not be able to harm him.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    I mean have we seen any instances of him being harmed by ...well anything?
    Yes. Two things.

    The main thing is his staff. It is linked with his soul, and inhabited by the spirit of his father. When his father is displeased with him, he can cause pain. When Coin eventually discards and destroys the staff it causes him intense pain, and the wizards think it kills him(although it doesn't).

    As a result of that, he finds himself in the dungeon dimensions and can't use magic against its inhabitants, because they act as magic sponges. He isn't injured, but is very worried. The "things" are a foe uniquely primed to fight a sourceror. Essentially eating any magic that they encounter and becoming stronger.

    Aside from that? Nothing causes difficulty or worry.
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  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Coin is also bound by the narrative rules of Discworld as well.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Coin is also bound by the narrative rules of Discworld as well.
    Except Conina and Nigel were just as useless against him as everybody else.
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Except Conina and Nigel were just as useless against him as everybody else.
    Its been a while since I read that book. Conina was the daughter of Conan if I remember correctly but who was Nigel?
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  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Its been a while since I read that book. Conina was the daughter of Conan if I remember correctly but who was Nigel?
    Sorry, Nijel. Nijel the Destroyer, formerly Nijel the Utilities Clerk. Barbarian hero on the make.

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    (And Conina was daughter of Cohen rather than Conan)
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Do you think coin would survive a blast from a hellpistol? An extremely powerful blade attack? The sealing technique? A blast from an angry dalek? I'm not sure that he'd be able to take any of those, the only things we know he can deal with is weak (relatively speaking) physical attacks - extrapolated from the fact that the wizards can protect themselves from them - lightning bolts, and magic. My gut feeling is that extremely powerful attacks would kill him just like they would anyone else.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    My gut feeling is that extremely powerful attacks would kill him just like they would anyone else.
    In his last scene in the novel before departing for a self made universe, Coin mentions that he is finding it hard to stay in this reality. That it's all too fragile and thin. Without even really meaning to he is causing revisions to reality and he is worried he'll accidentally destroy existence just by his interacting with it.

    And you think the answer to that is a bigger sword?
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    In his last scene in the novel before departing for a self made universe, Coin mentions that he is finding it hard to stay in this reality. That it's all too fragile and thin. Without even really meaning to he is causing revisions to reality and he is worried he'll accidentally destroy existence just by his interacting with it.

    And you think the answer to that is a bigger sword?
    The reality he's staying in is Discworld. Random peasants accidentally cause revisions to it.
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    In his last scene in the novel before departing for a self made universe, Coin mentions that he is finding it hard to stay in this reality. That it's all too fragile and thin. Without even really meaning to he is causing revisions to reality and he is worried he'll accidentally destroy existence just by his interacting with it.

    And you think the answer to that is a bigger sword?
    Rincewind mentioned though that the reality around Discworld was thin and fragile as a result from the previous wizard wars.



    Cohen, Conan we both know they're analogues anyways.
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  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Indeed, magic in discworld *always* messes things up, coin's just even more of a danger than wizards because not only has an absurd amount of power, but leaks it out everywhere so everyone else can use it. The Things didn't just come for Coin, they're pretty much a recurring theme and come whenever someone's using too much magic. Also, he hasn't actually done anything fundamentally different to what the wizards already do, aside from leak out his magic. The create-your-own-universe spell was already in existence for the eighth level, albeit a crap version.

    To be clear though, I do think the sourceror is extremely powerful, and probably would be one of the top contenders. I don't think he's invincible, because frankly the kinds of powers that can be dished out here haven't been tested against him. The only real attacks that have been made on him are magical, nobody's tried shooting him with a super future laser or having one of the more ridiculous characters drop a mountain on his head. They may fail to do it because he zaps them first, but if he can be defeated I don't think there's a reason for him to be kicked out of the competition.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Also, he hasn't actually done anything fundamentally different to what the wizards already do
    Capturing the gods and raw creation are both things fundamentally above what a Disc wizard can do.

    I don't think he's invincible, because frankly the kinds of powers that can be dished out here haven't been tested against him.
    So.. we don't have a clue if they'd work or not.

    The ordinary power levels of the Discworld are of little to no consequence, because Coin is above them in an incredibly major way.

    I'll note also, the type of weapon Coin expects to face is one that can destroy cities. He isn't at all worried about that kind of weapon, it's just the minimum standard he expects a foe to reach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sourcery
    [Rincewind] lurched off the hovering thing and on to the tower, swinging the loaded sock around his head in wide, dangerous sweeps.
    Coin saw him reflected in the astonished stares of the assembled wizards. He turned carefully and watched the wizard stagger erratically towards him.
    "Who are you?" he said.
    "I have come," said Rincewind thickly, "to challenge the sourcerer. Which one is he?"
    He surveyed the prostrate wizardry, hefting the half-brick in one hand.
    Hakardly risked a glance upwards and made frantic eyebrow movements at Rincewind who, even at the best of times, wasn't much good at interpreting non-verbal communication. This wasn't the best of times.
    "With a sock?" said Coin. "What good is a sock?"
    The arm holding the staff rose. Coin looked down at it in mild astonishment.
    "No, stop," he said. "I want to talk to this man." He stared at Rincewind, who was swaying back and forth under the influence of sleeplessness, horror and the after-effects of an adrenaline overdose.
    "Is it magical?" he said, curiously. "Perhaps it is the sock of an Archchancellor? A sock of force?"
    Rincewind focused on it.
    "I don't think so,' he said. 'I think I bought it in a shop or something. Um. I've got another one
    somewhere."
    "But in the end it has something heavy?"
    "Um. Yes," said Rincewind. He added, "It's a half-brick."
    "But it has great power."
    "Er. You can hold things up with it. If you had another one, you’d have a brick." Rincewind spoke slowly. He was assimilating the situation by a kind of awful osmosis, and watching the staff turn ominously in the boy's hand.
    "So. It is a brick of ordinariness, within a sock. The whole becoming a weapon."
    "Um. Yes."
    "How does it work?"
    "Um. You swing it, and then you. Hit something with it. Or sometimes the back of your hand, sometimes."
    "And then perhaps it destroys a whole city?" said Coin.
    Rincewind stared into Coin's golden eyes, and then at his sock. He had pulled it on and off several times a year for years. It had darns he'd grown to know and lo-well, know. Some of them had whole families of darns of their own. There were a number of descriptions that could be applied to the sock, but slayer-of-cities wasn't among them.
    "Not really," he said at last. "It sort of kills people but leaves buildings standing."
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Capturing the gods and raw creation are both things fundamentally above what a Disc wizard can do.
    I disagree, capturing the gods shows that he's a lot more powerful than the wizards, but it's not as impressive as it sounds because discworld gods aren't particularly great. Raw creation is something wizards can do, I don't have the quotes but there are times where people remark that "you *could* do all this by magic... but then one day, magic would present its bill".

    The point with your source there is that Coin is expecting the brick to be magical. And magical things intended to kill a sourceror probably would destroy a city, and he'd have no reason to worry about them. That doesn't mean that he'd necessarily be able to survive a mundane attack capable of destroying a city.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Top cat View Post
    I disagree, capturing the gods shows that he's a lot more powerful than the wizards, but it's not as impressive as it sounds because discworld gods aren't particularly great. Raw creation is something wizards can do, I don't have the quotes but there are times where people remark that "you *could* do all this by magic... but then one day, magic would present its bill".

    The point with your source there is that Coin is expecting the brick to be magical. And magical things intended to kill a sourceror probably would destroy a city, and he'd have no reason to worry about them. That doesn't mean that he'd necessarily be able to survive a mundane attack capable of destroying a city.
    1. Coin takes zaps from probably non-magical lightning bolts. As a baby. Without any sign of damage or even noticing.
    2. Coin powers up the wizards enough that they can level cities. Quirm and Al-Khali are both destroyed by Coin's Wizards immediately before Coin takes down the gods. The city destroying wizards are not good enough to destroy him or even challenge him.
    3. Discworlds gods may be "Weak" but they can still throw around some godly might. Any god worth his salt can smash a city, and things like levelling continents or wrenching things out of reality have also been attributed to them. Coin beats not just one god, but all of them. Simultaneously.

    Why would mundane city destroying attacks be better at challenging him than godly city destroying attacks, magical city destroying attacks, or mundane non city destroying attacks?


    But what I really don't understand... if you think somebody with a powerful non magical attack and speed is enough to beat Coin, why are you voting for Coin to win this matchup? You've given the criteria under which you'd vote for somebody to beat Coin. Divis Mal fills those criteria.. but you're still voting for Coin. Either you believe what you're saying or you don't.
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    I don't think they would necessarily beat him, just that they have a chance to. I don't know that anything whitewolf, but coin is a powerful enough character that I can probably fairly safely vote for him anyway... apparently not?

    The general sense I got from reading sourcery was that coin is supremely competent and practically unbeatable when it comes to magic. He produces ridiculous amounts of it, and trying to harm him with it is probably foolhardy, since when magic meets magic, the stronger magic wins. What I didn't get from reading it is that he's automatically impervious to all physical damage. The lightning bolt thing is the challange to that, but it really seemed to me to be a more "I absorbed the lightning's power" kind of thing. Unsubstantiated, sure. But we don't even know for sure that it was non-magical. It is a bit of a coincidence.

    I also think it would probably take at least superhuman power or above-modern-tech to break through random magical defenses that he has. As for why something mundane would be better? He's expecting, and shielding himself against, magic attacks. It's also probably the case that magic is more effective defending against more magic than a physical attack. We do see a few instances of magic protecting from physical attacks, but there is also:
    killing a brother wizard with magic was well-nigh impossible on account of the layers of protective spells that any cautious wizard maintained about his person at all times*
    *Of course, wizards often killed one another by ordinary, non-magical means, but this was perfectly allowable and death by assassination was considered natural causes for a wizard.
    I can't remember any instances of discworld gods actually doing anything like that... the last continent might be an exception, can't remember exactly what happened. What I rememeber them doing is basically meddling, occasionally teleporting things around, but not really doing a great deal of heavy smiting. Further, they're not independently powerful, they get their power from belief. Any god like that is not exactly... well, godlike. So it is impressive, but the gods of discworld are not the highest authority.

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Top cat View Post
    Further, they're not independently powerful, they get their power from belief. Any god like that is not exactly... well, godlike.
    That's pretty common actually, both with fictional gods and actual religions.
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  19. - Top - End - #259
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    I don't think they would necessarily beat him, just that they have a chance to. I don't know that anything whitewolf, but coin is a powerful enough character that I can probably fairly safely vote for him anyway... apparently not?
    Well no. Not really. Not if you think any character in this tournament can beat him. If you're giving Superman as an example of a character that can win, then Divis should be able to pull out a victory as well.

    I can't remember any instances of discworld gods actually doing anything like that...
    It's never an actual plot point in the stories. Just offhand references to it. Small Gods, Last Continent, Last Hero and others all have references to godly wrath killing cities. (Indeed, even the relatively benign and cuddly God of Evolution is capable of it.)
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    I think superman probably would lose, but probably could win. Is Divis Mal
    a) really, really strong
    b) really, really fast - as in, can't be seen fast
    c) sensible enough not to stand around tanking attacks to show how powerful he is?

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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    a) really, really strong
    b) really, really fast - as in, can't be seen fast
    c) sensible enough not to stand around tanking attacks to show how powerful he is?
    A) Yes.
    B) Yes.
    C) He doesn't tank attacks to show how tough he is. He does however try to talk to foes to convince them that they shouldn't be fighting before he goes on the offensive, which sometimes results in people getting in hits. He's certainly no worse in that regard than Superman.
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Superman would lose. I was giving examples of people who could hurt/kill Coin, not people who would necessarily win. But yeah, it would be basically
    You can't hurt me! I'm the man of ste-
    *superman disappears*

    Regardless, I don't think trying to convince people not to fight squares with the rules, so my vote is changing to Whitewolf.
    Last edited by Top cat; 2011-12-14 at 02:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    A) Yes.
    B) Yes.
    C) He doesn't tank attacks to show how tough he is. He does however try to talk to foes to convince them that they shouldn't be fighting before he goes on the offensive, which sometimes results in people getting in hits. He's certainly no worse in that regard than Superman.
    Well Coin's biggest weakness is when he's confronted with minimal force he doesn't know how to handle it. Basically that half-brick in a sock defeated him.

    So sure I imagine that the vampire is a pretty good speaker. Change to White Wolf
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    If Coin is going to stay, then I vote for Whitewolf as well. I don't think they can actually beat Coin, but if we can get the game-breaker out this way, I'm OK with it. Sorry, Cohen.
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Voting deadline extended to 12 noon GMT. I here there is debate on Sourceror being omnipotent. I don't think he was this at the start of the story. We use the power level which is most powerful and dangerous but not omnipotent.

    I may not be able to vote in this week's royale. If there is any ties, I'll break them by voting but who knows.
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Voting deadline extended to 12 noon GMT. I here there is debate on Sourceror being omnipotent. I don't think he was this at the start of the story. We use the power level which is most powerful and dangerous but not omnipotent.
    Unfortunately we only get 2 versions of Coin, the weak one is where he is newborn, and and unable to use his powers except on instinct.

    The other version is the 6-7 year old Coin who imprison all the Gods of the Discworld, and generaly turn the world upside down because he acts as a Source of magic.
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Results are in! Very late.

    The Swarmlord brutally tortures Paolini's masterpieces (5-0)
    The light duo do similar to captain Jack. (3-2)
    Aizen and Gin worryingly defeat Battle Royale 1's 6th place contestant (5-1)
    The Russian way once again triumphs over the tyranny of Kings (5-3)
    Ganon is sealed (6-1)
    The Samusi over power the magicians (4-2)
    Digimon engulf the mortal combat duo (5-0)
    Just as Whitewolf and Discworld fight...A pink daemon comes out of nowhere crushes Divis Mal and Smiling Jack, eats Coin (who cannot resist), conjurs Weatherwax from nowhere and proclaims in a booming voice "FROM THIS DAY FORTH, DISCWORLD SHALL ALWAYS HAVE TWO HEROES. AND DOCTOR WHO WILL ALWAYS HAVE TWO VILLAINS. THANK YOU PLAYGROUND, YOU'VE SAVED ME THE STRESS OF KILLING OFF TWO POPULAR UNIVERSES IN THE PURGE BECAUSE OF LACK OF FORCE ON ONE SIDE.

    Next set!
    Round 2- week 2 of 2
    16 Megaman & Protoman (Mega Man) vs 17 Giles & Olvikan (Richard Wilkins) (Buffyverse)
    14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 19 King Arthur & Green Knight (Arthurian Legend)
    12 Hulk & Magneto (Marvel Universe) vs 21 Articuno & Mewtwo (Pokemon)
    10 Genie & Maleficent (Disney Animated Canon) vs 23 Roland & Randall Flagg (Dark Tower)
    8 Seras Victoria & Alexander Anderson (Hellsing) vs 25 Tom Strong & Kid Miracleman (Alan Moore)
    6Godzilla & MechaGodzilla (Godzilla) vs 27 T-800 & T-1000 (Terminator)
    4 Gohan & Cooler (Dragonball) vs 29 Varsuuvius & Xykon (Order of the Stick)
    2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe) vs 31 Rainbow Dash & Nightmare Moon (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)

    Votes due Christmas Eve@ 9:00pm. Please vote and debate!
    We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.

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    It's nice to see someone saying it isn't for once, the forum IQ did just go up. Please have a cookie Sunken Valley.
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    I thought Sunken Valley eloquently covered the points I wanted to make.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    16 Megaman & Protoman (Mega Man) vs 17 Giles & Olvikan (Richard Wilkins) (Buffyverse)
    14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 19 King Arthur & Green Knight (Arthurian Legend)
    12 Hulk & Magneto (Marvel Universe) vs 21 Articuno & Mewtwo (Pokemon)
    10 Genie & Maleficent (Disney Animated Canon) vs 23 Roland & Randall Flagg (Dark Tower)
    8 Seras Victoria & Alexander Anderson (Hellsing) vs 25 Tom Strong & Kid Miracleman (Alan Moore) - pass for now, I do not know what this Alan Moore is.
    6Godzilla & MechaGodzilla (Godzilla) vs 27 T-800 & T-1000 (Terminator)
    4 Gohan & Cooler (Dragonball) vs 29 Varsuuvius & Xykon (Order of the Stick)
    2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe) vs 31 Rainbow Dash & Nightmare Moon (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)
    Last edited by Top cat; 2011-12-21 at 01:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    [QUOTE=Sunken Valley;12395398]Results are in! Very late.

    Next set!
    Round 2- week 2 of 2
    16 Megaman & Protoman (Mega Man) vs 17 Giles & Olvikan (Richard Wilkins) (Buffyverse)
    14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 19 King Arthur & Green Knight (Arthurian Legend)
    12 Hulk & Magneto (Marvel Universe) vs 21 Articuno & Mewtwo (Pokemon)
    10 Genie & Maleficent (Disney Animated Canon) vs 23 Roland & Randall Flagg (Dark Tower)
    8 Seras Victoria & Alexander Anderson (Hellsing) vs 25 Tom Strong & Kid Miracleman (Alan Moore) Anderson is pretty insane and Seras is also a very strong vampire.
    6Godzilla & MechaGodzilla (Godzilla) vs 27 T-800 & T-1000 (Terminator)
    4 Gohan & Cooler (Dragonball) vs 29 Varsuuvius & Xykon (Order of the Stick)
    2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe) vs 31 Rainbow Dash & Nightmare Moon (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)
    In order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion.


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  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: Battle Royale III: Frenemy mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunken Valley View Post
    16 Megaman & Protoman (Mega Man) vs 17 Giles & Olvikan (Richard Wilkins) (Buffyverse)
    14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 19 King Arthur & Green Knight (Arthurian Legend)
    Even if we were to assume that the Arthurians were completely invulnerable, their stats are way too low to escape Eva's lightning ice vines. And Jack could... pick them up and throw them into orbit or something, I don't know.

    12 Hulk & Magneto (Marvel Universe) vs 21 Articuno & Mewtwo (Pokemon)
    10 Genie & Maleficent (Disney Animated Canon) vs 23 Roland & Randall Flagg (Dark Tower)
    8 Seras Victoria & Alexander Anderson (Hellsing) vs 25 Tom Strong & Kid Miracleman (Alan Moore)
    6Godzilla & MechaGodzilla (Godzilla) vs 27 T-800 & T-1000 (Terminator)
    Curbstomp
    4 Gohan & Cooler (Dragonball) vs 29 Varsuuvius & Xykon (Order of the Stick)
    Neither Vaarsuvius or Xykon can block the kind of power the DBZ characters can throw around, and their trickier abilities aren't likely to work either. Cooler at his strongest is an army of thousands of guys strong enough to destroy planets.
    2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe) vs 31 Rainbow Dash & Nightmare Moon (My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)
    Last edited by Prime32; 2011-12-18 at 04:08 PM.
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