Wizard vs. Sorcerer. What's the better choice?

[hex0]

Actually, the Dragonwrought trick can be applied to Wizards fairly easily as well, since you might as well take Spellhoarding and have your uber caster level be in Wizard Casting, which is of course a level faster anyway. And while at that point you're playing a sorcerer, you're a Wizard in all but name.
So Spellhoarding Dragonwrought kobold > ordinary Dragonwrought kobold, if we're going to that cheese level.

Non-cheese version, play a Kobold Wizard and do the rite of greater draconic passage and then go into Ultimate Magus.

[Vowtz]

However, the spellbook does not matter. If the spellbook is defended(IE, everyone wants to listen to the giant pile of preparations), there is essentially no chance of it being stolen or destroyed. It's best to just not bother to target it, while they don't bother to tediously list the defenses. Best for all concerned.

Simple situation: your party had some encounters, and you exausted most of your spells, you have another fight, lose, and are imprisoned.

After 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of preparation, a sorcerer could escape easily, and a wizard without his spellbook is limited to preparing read magic.

Of course there are ways around that, like spell mastery, but the same can be said for the sorcerer limited knowledge.

For me, the thing that makes a wizard really superior to a sorcerer is the fact that he gains his most powerful spells one level earlier.

[lord_khaine]

Simple situation: your party had some encounters, and you exausted most of your spells, you have another fight, lose, and are imprisoned.

After 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of preparation, a sorcerer could escape easily, and a wizard without his spellbook is limited to preparing read magic.

I would like to know, what sort of idiot is smart enough to take prisoner, dumb enough to take spellcasting prisoners alive, smart enough to take the wizards spellbook away from him, but to stupid to not bind and gag the live and awake spellcaster they captured?

[sonofzeal]

Also, exactly how often does that happen in most games?

[Vowtz]

I would like to know, what sort of idiot is smart enough to take prisoner

Almost anyone. For reasons like ransom, slavery, information...

dumb enough to take spellcasting prisoners alive

Anyone. If the point was to kill, then he just kill. "I will kill this prisoner because he is a spellcaster" sounds like metagaming.

smart enough to take the wizards spellbook away from him

Again, anyone. If you are imprisoned you obviously lose access to ALL your possessions.

but to stupid to not bind and gag the live and awake spellcaster they captured?

Silent spell let you dimmension door out of a prison even gagged and bound.

Also, exactly how often does that happen in most games?

A lot, heroes not always win.

In "Lord of the Rings" Gandalf was a prisoner, Frodo was a prisoner, Merry and Pippin were prisoners; In "The Hobbit" All dwarfs were prisoners at least twice; In "Pirates of the Caribbean" Jack Sparrow was imprisoned many times, Will Turner was made prisoner, all the crew were prisoners of a cannibal tribe; In OOTS Roy and Belkar were released from prison just some weeks ago.

In D&D I was a prisoner so many times I lost count, and when I'm DM, when PCs lose battles, they are imprisoned, not just slain, depending on the enemy.

[jiriku]

My experience in higher-level play is that there is no comparing the power of sorcerer to a wizard. With a firm mastery of the rules, it is very easy to make a sorcerer who is absolutely uber at one or two things. And it is very easy to make a wizard who is absolutely uber at most anything he puts his mind to. Therein lies the difference.

Others have suggested that sorcerers are better for new players than wizards. I've generally not found that to be true. Newbies don't understand the rules well enough to know which spells known to pick for their sorcerer, leaving them with a grab bag of "whatever looked cool". It's easier to build, but the end result is not more effective.

That said, I'll agree with many others that the real limit on the effectiveness of either class is player skill and ability to micromanage. Playing a wizard requires more time and rules mastery than playing a sorcerer, so if you're part of that slice of the gaming population that has sufficient time, inclination and ability to manage a sorcerer, but not enough for a wizard, then sorcerer is the way to go.

[dextercorvia]

A sorcerer built by an experienced player is easier for a newbie to play than a Wizard built by the same experienced player. That is fairly niche, however.

[Reaver225]

After 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of preparation, a sorcerer could escape easily, and a wizard without his spellbook is limited to preparing read magic.

And the sorcerer wasted a feat on Eschew Materials...?

[dextercorvia]

And the sorcerer wasted a feat on Eschew Materials...?

Normally, I'm very pro-wizard, but I'm even more pro-pedant.

Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5
Components: V

Just as an example, of course. There are a surprising number of spells without material components, or with components that are readily available, even in captivity.

[Snowbluff]

And the sorcerer wasted a feat on Eschew Materials...?

Depends on how much of a bastard your DM. Some DM I know combat a party's caster by stealing their components with rogues.

[Eldariel]

Anyone. If the point was to kill, then he just kill. "I will kill this prisoner because he is a spellcaster" sounds like metagaming.

No, it sounds like common sense in a world where many spellcasters can, without any warning, just appear anywhere within miles from their current location. You can't capture one without Anti-Magic Shackles, or at least cutting vocal cords and both hands.

And most would-be capturers can't afford Anti-Magic Shackles so they'd most likely be smart enough to kill or maim any spellcasters that happen to be in a position to be captured before they leave the next day (unless the capturers can ensure there's no possibility of him and all the other captives disappearing the next morning, such as ensuring the spellcaster is arcane, out of spell slots and isn't allowed sufficient rest to refresh their mind).

[Emperor Tippy]

Almost anyone. For reasons like ransom, slavery, information...

Anyone holding a spell caster will drain/damage all their mental stats down below 10, spells don't matter then.

Anyone. If the point was to kill, then he just kill. "I will kill this prisoner because he is a spellcaster" sounds like metagaming.

No, it's an intelligent incharacter action. You can't hold a prepared caster short of extraordinarily involved preparations (which will still usually fail). You are better off killing them (ideally using one of the methods that keeps them from coming back).

Again, anyone. If you are imprisoned you obviously lose access to ALL your possessions.

Even the ones that you can't find? Like the ones stored inside your bones, in your stomach, in the extra-dimensional space in your tooth.

Silent spell let you dimmension door out of a prison even gagged and bound.

Not really, DD has a limited range and any prison holding a caster should have one of the anti teleportation magics up.

[Flickerdart]

It's possible to tattoo spells on yourself - it costs twice as much, but you can write down "Teleport" on your party Barbarian's armpit, or engrave it on your finger bone (and then heal over it with magic). It takes effort for even someone versed in Spellcraft to recognize a tattoo as a spell, and many characters with one tattoo could easily have a bunch more that are perfectly mundane.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's possible to tattoo spells on yourself - it costs twice as much, but you can write down "Teleport" on your party Barbarian's armpit, or engrave it on your finger bone (and then heal over it with magic). It takes effort for even someone versed in Spellcraft to recognize a tattoo as a spell, and many characters with one tattoo could easily have a bunch more that are perfectly mundane.

I prefer the inside of the ass cheek. So very rarely checked.

And your wizard should always have a Simulacrum of himself left back at your base that he has a permanent Telepathic Bond with and that has a Craft Contingent Wish on it. Tell the Simulacrum to activate the Wish if you are every out of contact for a day or two, have the Wish set to pull you and your party from wherever you are to your base. That will get you even out of Dead Magic prisons.

Just remember to take additional steps if you are going to be purposefully visiting other planes as telepathic bond can't cross planar boundaries.

[Vowtz]

No, it sounds like common sense in a world where many spellcasters can, without any warning, just appear anywhere within miles from their current location.

Some spellcasters, not many. If you look at DMG's tables you will see that, even in a metropolis, there is few people who can do that.

You can't capture one without Anti-Magic Shackles, or at least cutting vocal cords and both hands.

And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?

And most would-be capturers can't afford Anti-Magic Shackles so they'd most likely be smart enough to kill or maim any spellcasters that happen to be in a position to be captured before they leave the next day (unless the capturers can ensure there's no possibility of him and all the other captives disappearing the next morning, such as ensuring the spellcaster is arcane, out of spell slots and isn't allowed sufficient rest to refresh their mind).

That's what I call metagaming, mechanics like anti-magic Shackles or knowing that anyone could simply disapear next morning, draining relevant stats, anti-teleportation, are not a common knowledge to most creatures in the world.

A hill giant can live all his life in the happy giant's community without seeing a teleport spell, even if he have some magic potions or wondrous items, or know that some wizards can do a lot of strange things.

It's possible to tattoo spells on yourself

Yes, that would work like spell mastery, with some ugly differences.

[Emperor Tippy]

Some spellcasters, not many. If you look at DMG's tables you will see that, even in a metropolis, there is few people who can do that.

Few nations can use nuclear weapons, every nation knows that they exist.

Spellcasters are the same. However rare it is to have a caster who can teleport, it's common enough that it would be known that spellcasters can teleport. Whether the one you have captured can or can't is unknown, but that he at least potentially has that capability isn't a rare fact.

And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?

"Hmm, the guard needs special prison cells to hold casters."

That's what I call metagaming, mechanics like anti-magic Shackles or knowing that anyone could simply disapear next morning, draining relevant stats, anti-teleportation, are not a common knowledge to most creatures in the world.

And most creatures can't capture a caster in the first place, especially a high level one. To do that requires a fair chunk of magic on your side already.

A hill giant can live all his life in the happy giant's community without seeing a teleport spell, even if he have some magic potions or wondrous items, or know that some wizards can do a lot of strange things.

And that hill giant is never going to capture a wizard that is actually high enough level to teleport.

[Flickerdart]

And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?

Because the last time they tried to capture a spellcaster, he teleported away shortly after filling the place with horrible murderbeasts? And the time before that? And the time before that?

Yes, that would work like spell mastery, with some ugly differences.

Except you don't need to blow a feat, and can "master" many more spells while looking super badass.

[Vowtz]

And most creatures can't capture a caster in the first place, especially a high level one. To do that requires a fair chunk of magic on your side already.

And that hill giant is never going to capture a wizard that is actually high enough level to teleport.

which leeds back to my previous post:

True, If you play on very easy mode.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

which leeds back to my previous post:

Then please, enlighten me... how can a hill giant capture a Wizard of 11th level?

This, I gotta hear...

EDIT: Also, easy mode? That would be capturing a wizard and *NOT* taking advantage of the tactics which Tippy mentioned. It's not metagaming, it's the only way to provide one a challenge.

[Vowtz]

Then please, enlighten me... how can a hill giant capture a Wizard of 11th level?

This, I gotta hear...

Someone stated something like that in another thread and I think everyone can agree:

"Underestimating the DM is not a smart move".

[Eldariel]

And how a creature without ranks in spellcraft, or knowledge(arcane) or (religion) know that?

The creature's superiors would. Anyone who's done research would. Anyone who's captured a spellcaster in the past would. Anyone in a position to imprison creatures living in a world where magical creatures and magic is as common as by the DMG would (seriously, it's not just spellcasters; Outsiders, Aberrations, Undead, any creature with magic could).

And anyone who doesn't understand magic fears it; if they somehow manage to get a spellcaster at their mercy, they'll just kill it out of fear specifically 'cause they do not know how many ways they have to escape their bondage. This would be especially true for tribal creatures of various kinds.

[Emperor Tippy]

which leeds back to my previous post:

No, I play on very hard mode.

Look at all the various builds and advice I offer in threads on these forums, 98% of it is variation's of stuff that I've either faced as a player or thrown against the party as a DM.

IC you are an adventurer. That's a profession where upwards of 90% are dead before they reach level 5. If you have survived then you are either a paranoid bastard or one the luckiest individuals to have ever lived.

You survive by thinking of how you could die, and then figuring out contingencies and plans to prevent that death. The higher the level, the more preparation is inherent in your profession.

[Vowtz]

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard.

You see it all the time on movies, books and comics. The captor don't go cutting off the arms of every prisoner.

[Emperor Tippy]

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard.

In reference to the bolded part, exactly. And even a wizard capable of casting first level spells is smart enough to recognize that fact. 18 Int makes you smarter than Einstein.

The wizard will know that being captured is a risk, he will thus think of ways to 1) minimize his chance of being captured and 2) escape capture if he is still caught.

Preplanned contingencies are incredibly incharacter for a wizard.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Someone stated something like that in another thread and I think everyone can agree:

"Underestimating the DM is not a smart move".

Which is not an answer to my question.

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard.

This, however, is an attempt to dodge the real answer: it can't.

You are right, a Hill Giant would not know to take these precautions. A Hill Giant would never be able to capture said wizard in the first place, so the fact that he wouldn't know to take precautions in an event which will never occur is not a problem. Then again, a Hill Giant would never bother capturing a wizard. If he can subdue one... said wizard becomes stew. Because a Hill Giant has no reason to capture a wizard. It is of no value to him other than as a quick meal.

The beings most likely to be able to capture a wizard alive are ones which will also take reasonable precautions.

You see it all the time on movies, books and comics. The captor don't go cutting off the arms of every prisoner.

Some of us don't like using Railroad Plot. Some of us also like things called 'concequences for your actions'. If you don't play like that, well that's your decision, and you are welcome to. But for myself, and the others who are positing questions... we prefer to not play on easy mode.

[Flickerdart]

Before hate falls upon me, I am not saying that a hill giant will capture any wizard easily, my point is that for any adventurer, being captured is a very real possibility, and a sorcerer can be able to handle it better than a wizard.

You see it all the time on movies, books and comics. The captor don't go cutting off the arms of every prisoner.

We've already demonstrated that with minimal amounts of preparation, this is patently untrue.

[hamishspence]

In reference to the bolded part, exactly. And even a wizard capable of casting first level spells is smart enough to recognize that fact. 18 Int makes you smarter than Einstein.

According to one article, which has been criticised quite a bit on this forum.

Extremely smart NPCs could have the "prodigy" template from DMG2, which upgrades their intelligence by 2, and gives them a bonus to Int-related checks on top of that.

So you could have a "prodigy of intelligence" who is INT 20, and 1st level- seems like a good way to represent the kind of people who get degrees several years early.

[Flickerdart]

Animal intelligence is 2. Average human intelligence is 10. You are as far above an ordinary person as they are above an animal in terms of your intelligence.

[hamishspence]

Animal Int is 2. Minimum PC Int is 3. But an Int 3 PC can read, write and speak one language (unless their class is specified as illiterate).

It's not a linear scale- there's a huge jump between Int 2 and Int 3.

[Vowtz]

Which is not an answer to my question.
This, however, is an attempt to dodge the real answer: it can't.

Then please, enlighten me... how can a hill giant capture a Wizard of 11th level?

This, I gotta hear...

Looks like you want to argue using some kind of Schrodinger's logic, which never get anywhere.

If you post a real character (level 10, teleport is a 5th level spell) then I'm sure Emperor Tippy can find a way to capture him using the mentioned hill giant given the stated situation:

Simple situation: your party had some encounters, and you exausted most of your spells, you have another fight, lose, and are imprisoned.