(3.5) Whats the point of the Core sorcerer?

[Rogue Shadows]

Deep Sashelas is not a Greater deity, so I'm not talking to him if I ping Arborea at max CL. Nice try though.

He wasn't saying you were. He was pointing out that deities don't tend to have their own demiplanes, or at least don't tend to hang out on them, even if they can create them.

[Psyren]

"No."

(The being you contacted is probably unaware of the existance of the DM)

I don't think you were meant to take that question seriously.

So lemme get this straight, a Wizard with all the versatility in the multiverse will always be better then a Psion because the Wizard can get more spells then the Psion can get more powers? Because the Psion has a limit to the number of PP they can use in a single day? or what? Why is the Psion viewed as inferior to the Wizard? If I'm missing something please enlighten me

Magic has several potent advantages over psionics, particularly in the Conjuration, Illusion, Necromancy and metamagic areas.

Psionics had the edge in Divination, Evocation and Enchantment - unfortunately, those happen to be the three weakest schools.

Psionics does however possess great facility as far as temporal manipulation (read: action economy) and object creation.

Its a Core Spell, I believe Contact other plane works on the idea that you've bought Deities & Demigods so it really doesn't even make sense it being core

Hm? There are deities in the core books; they just happen to be Product Identity and so didn't make it to the SRD.

[Suddo]

If leadership is unbanned then sorcs might have a slight advantage with charisma being a key stat. But I always dislike that sorcs only get 2+Int skills which is almost always Spellcraft UMD or maybe something for a prereq unless you increase your Int, which in some point spreads is somewhat annoying; Compared to the Wizard which, assuming Leadership is banned, can dump Charisma and still be a better diplomancer than the Sorc due to his high Int. Its just a little annoyance I have. That and that Wizards get feat while Sorcs don't. It allows them to become even more versatile then the Sorcs. I sometimes think the R&D team though that Sorcs were superior and needed nerfing, while it could be argued they are better in some ways the fact is those 2 thing always make me shy away from Sorcs versus Wizards.

[Myth]

Ah yes, CoP has it's disadvantages. I know how to make it a progressively worse risk if they abuse it too much. I don't mind them asking things that advance the plot however.

The real problem seems to be Commune. See, a good aligned Cleric and his all-powerful Deity friend should be free of all those pesky limitations (and they are by RAW). So then I'd be stuck answering most of them. Well there is a back door (get a servant to answer that stuff. Like a Planetar or something) but still it's harder spell to negate via fiat.

Overall though (and we've gone way off topic - Core sorcerers and all) I tend to encourage (or otherwise force if necessary) my players to use stuff as it was intended by the game desigenrs. IMO (and me being the DM, my opinion matters) CoP and Commune are meant to resolve specific problems I present or the party has created, or to advance the plot, help solve one of the big daramatic mysteries etc. Batman/GOD trying to cover his options and to avoid the wrath of the DM...?

What is the point anyway? Surely if a DM wants your Wizard dead, your Wizard will die. A player going by Tippy's advice has already entered the Celerity-Timestop-lol astrally projected-Shapechanged etc. arms race vs. the DM and I don't see this ending well for either party really.

And all the while, this time could have been spent playing and advancing the story. Don't forget what DnD is after all - storytelling, mythology made flesh for the modern day folk that is superior to movies and PC games (arguably). I once read some poster here saying how his groups weekly sessions consisted of the party of tier 1 casters flying somewhere, invisible and buffed, finding the target (which they scry-ed last night) and nuking it from orbit. Great, you've now achieved "grinding for XP and gold" in a game that has the single best advantage out of any such forms of entertainment - an unlimited story and unlimited freedom of action and choice.

[Talya]

No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

All those "spells known" don't really matter nearly so much as how many different spells they can have memorized at any given time, and in what quantity, right now. (And note, any half-decently built sorcerer knows 1-2 more spells per spell level than core would indicate they should. Possibly more than that.)

The potential to use more spells is nice, but once any given fight comes along, it ceases to matter.

The sorcerer tends to have more useful tactical options (things to do in any given fight -- especially if they take a lot of metamagic feats.) The wizard tends to have far more strategic options (they get to choose what spells they can ready every day, as opposed to every level. In the end, especially with the 1-level delay on sorcerer spells, the well-played wizard ends up more powerful, but it's not nearly so big a difference in real gameplay as forum gameplay theorists would have us believe.

[Blisstake]

(And note, any half-decently built sorcerer knows 1-2 more spells per spell level than core would indicate they should. Possibly more than that.)

Are there any ways for a core sorcerer to learn new spells aside from leveling up?

[FearlessGnome]

Edit: Woops, sorry. Didn't see the word "core".

Are there any ways for a core sorcerer to learn new spells aside from leveling up?

As brought up previously in the thread:

A Bloodline feat will add one spell know per spell level. Apprentice (Dungeon Master's Guide II) will let you swap out spells known more often than usual. So both put together will get you one extra spell of your choice per spell level.

If you are open to the idea of having unholy undead flesh growing inside of you, there's also Mother Cyst, from Libris Mortis, which adds another 10 [Evil] spells. Swap them out. As long as you pick a good bloodline, that's 20 nice spells added to your list by level 20, for the cost of three feats.

An item called a Knowstone will let you add more spells known while you have the (slotless) item. Costs you 1000*Spellevel squared.

So options do exist. If evil doesn't fit into the equation, there's still the bloodline and the Knowstones.

[Analytica]

Then some circumstance comes up, prophesies are guidelines, or the heroes are immune to fate. Your choice.
They can control things. Does the DM have to follow exactly what they planned out? Can they not adapt? If they can't, you have a terrible DM. HORRIBLE.

Thank you for responding. I agree, and I can see a number of ways in which this can be done. I am just curious as to which of these options that other people actually choose in real games.

Notably, if prophecies are only guidelines or the like, it seems to me that wizards won't necessarily be prepared for everything they encounter, only for a majority of cases, meaning that there may still be some slight robustness advantage to being a sorcerer rather than a wizard. Probably not enough to count for much, though.

[Blisstake]

Edit: Woops, sorry. Didn't see the word "core".

As brought up previously in the thread:

A Bloodline feat will add one spell know per spell level. Apprentice (Dungeon Master's Guide II) will let you swap out spells known more often than usual. So both put together will get you one extra spell of your choice per spell level.

If you are open to the idea of having unholy undead flesh growing inside of you, there's also Mother Cyst, from Libris Mortis, which adds another 10 [Evil] spells. Swap them out. As long as you pick a good bloodline, that's 20 nice spells added to your list by level 20, for the cost of three feats.

An item called a Knowstone will let you add more spells known while you have the (slotless) item. Costs you 1000*Spellevel squared.

So options do exist. If evil doesn't fit into the equation, there's still the bloodline and the Knowstones.

Okay, but only when going into splatbook territory?

The list is still useful though, thank you

[nedz]

Well there are a number of Feats and PrCs, not in core I'm afraid. CDiv has quite a few though.

[dextercorvia]

Okay, but only when going into splatbook territory?

The list is still useful though, thank you

Not in core. Here are a few more options.

Runestaves in the MIC (note that you can customize them). Extra Spell in CArc. Sandshaper from Sandstorm. Exalted Arcanist (IIRC -- BoED). Arcane Preparation gets access to sanctified spells. Draconic Leagacy grants a few more spells. Gaining a domain from a Prestige class -- like Divine Oracle.

[heinrich]

Mother Cyst doesn't. My Necrotic Apprentice trick does.

Apprentice Spellcaster gives an additional spell known at 1st level, and the ability to swap one spell every time you level up. Mother Cyst gives the 10 spells known you mentioned. You then proceed to swap your 10 mother cyst spells over the next several levels (save some of the low level ones to use your normal sorcerer swap on). You can add in a bloodline feat to make it a total of 20 additional spells known.

But you can only swap "Spells Known". The Cyst feat only grants the ability to cast these spells, doesn't make them actual "Spells Known" that can be swaped put for other spells...

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please don't revive old threads.