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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Malachei's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Maybe could use a bit of information about entries to Incantatrix other than Wizard/Sorcerer. I, for one, am curious what could be done with a Beguiler/Incantatrix (it's INT-based, at least!). And of course there are infamous exploits that are specific to Wu Jen/Incantatrix (using Body Outside Body to multiply your daily uses of Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic, a la Team Solars).
    Yes, good points. I love Beguilers, and with their set list casting, they have an advantage over the sorcerer. For a few things, they'd probably need a Runestaff, though. Wu Jen, well, a niche, but yes.

    Thank you.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Malachei's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    I've been busy, but I'll have an update coming next week, listing feat advice, among other things.

    If you have specific builds you want to share, they're very welcome.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Wizard5/incantatrix10/red wizard5 is a classic, because then you can cast all your buffs at CL 40 minimally, or even 50, which is wonderful for buffs that are uncapped and dependent on CL (such as skin of the steel dragon from Champions of Valor, which grants 10+CL spell resistance, and is persistable). It also makes them virtually impossible for anything besides epic magic and disjunction to take down.

    Wizard5/incantatrix10/mindbender1/loremaster1/olin gisir1/archmage2 is another. Loremaster (only worth it if you can use Frog God's Fane) and Olin Gisir (elf only) are basically there for free feats, mindbender for mindsight, and archmage for being awesome. No part of those last 5 levels is essential, but they're worth mentioning.

    Focused specialist5/incantatrix3/mage of the arcane order7/[red wizard, archmage, more incantatrix, or other filler] is nice because it takes away much of the pain of specializing, because you gain access to otherwise forbidden spells of up to 9th level, and you can sacrifice your specialist slots to get spellpool spells. Incantatrix3 is enough to be able to retroactively add persist to buffs, anything beyond that is gravy.

    It's tempting to pair incantatrix with initiate of the sevenfold veil initially, but I don't believe there's a lot of synergy there. If I had to I'd go abjurer3/master specialist3/veil7/incantatrix7. Alternatively wizard5/veil7/incantatrix7/filler1.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    Wizard5/incantatrix10/red wizard5 is a classic, because then you can cast all your buffs at CL 40 minimally, or even 50, which is wonderful for buffs that are uncapped and dependent on CL (such as skin of the steel dragon from Champions of Valor, which grants 10+CL spell resistance, and is persistable). It also makes them virtually impossible for anything besides epic magic and disjunction to take down.
    it also requires you to lose yet another school. three schools lost is reasonably bearable, but four and you start needing to lose important stuff. prefer hathran or halruaan elder?

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    A non-focused diviner would only need to give up 3 schools, which wouldn't be a great use of specialization, but you also wouldn't be losing much.

    But yeah, you could easily replace all instances of red wizard with CircleMagicClass5, circle magic is really all you're there for.

    Though come to think, wizard5/incantatrix3/mage of the arcane order7/red wizard5 wouldn't be so bad. You get persistomancy out of incantatrix, CL of circle magic, the lower feat tax of red wizard, and your spell versatility recovered with MotAO. Plus the spell power and bonus feat from red wizard are nice.
    Last edited by Hirax; 2011-12-03 at 08:55 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    There's a build with Elven Generalist+Domain Wizard+Incantatrix+Olin Gisir which is pretty nifty and flavorful. In fact, I think that's basically Cindy isn't it?

    Also, consider the Mailman as a basis on how to use Incantarix with a Sorcerer.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    If you become a Spellguard of Silverymoon (for the Spellguard ability), then take Arcane Reach from the Archmage's High Arcana list (or the Reach Spell feat), you can ostensibly cast any "defensive" Personal spell at a fixed range of 30 (or 60) feet. This means that you can apply both Chain Spell (which requires a range greater than touch) and Persistent Spell (which requires a non-touch fixed range) to any Personal-range spell that fits the description of Spellguard (which is to say that it increases AC, saves, or gives temporary HP or restores life), which the Incantatrix can do for free.

    A few neat spells that you can use with this (NOTE: I'll be including the maximum values for most spells, because the minimum that you could do this is level 12 with Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Spellguard 4 and Reach Spell anyway):
    Mage Armor, Greater - +6 armor bonus to Armor Class. Since Mage Armor, Mass already exists, this is mostly for those rigidly unafraid of compromise, or who are already taking advantage for the other (more impressive) offerings. (See Also: Mage Armor)
    Dragonskin - +5 natural armor bonus to Armor Class, +20 energy resistance to the type of your choosing. This is always useful, as you can combine it with Resist Energy to have +30 energy resistance of one type and +20 to another (and, ostensibly, any other energy resistance sources that can be added, such as Fire Shield).
    Iron Bones - +6 natural armor bonus to Armor Class to undead. (See Also: Stone Bones.)
    Shield - +4 shield bonus to Armor Class. Short of actually wearing a shield (of considerable value), this is the best you can expect for your shield bonuses--and it is absolutely the best for casters, because there is no Arcane Spell Failure--and it's a first-level spell, meaning it's very low-cost at higher levels.
    Magic Circle from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos - +2 deflection bonus to Armor Class, +2 resistance bonus to all saves, protection from mental control, and an effective 10-foot physical barrier against all summoned creatures of the given alignment (which makes up a large subset of the "Outsider" type). Cast this on you and 19 of your friends to create a large human barrier that stops summoned hordes at the gates without even the risk of injury! (See also: Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos.)
    False Life - 1d10+10 temporary hit points. It's a second-level spell, so why not?
    Rage - +2 morale bonus to STR and CON, +1 Will save, -2 AC. Not recommended for a normal party because it's really only half the benefits of the class ability, but if you have an army of nameless mooks with swords and axes, have at it.
    Heroism, Greater - +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks; immunity to fear effects; and temporary hit points equal to caster level. See: Rage, although most of your party will benefit from this spell under almost any circumstances. (See also: Heroism.)
    Transformation - +4 enhancement bonus to STR, DEX, and CON, +4 natural armor bonus to AC, +5 competence bonus to Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all martial weapons. The best part is, the spell doesn't have to affect you--you can chain it to the rest of your (non-casting) party and explicitly exclude yourself. There's also nothing that says you can't gain the +4 STR bonus from the Potion of Bull's Strength you drink as part of the casting.
    Resistance, Superior - +6 resistance bonus to all saves. Self-explanatory. (See also: Nightshield, Resistance, Greater and Resistance.)
    Shapechange - The possibilities are limitless (but all you care about is that it restores lost hit points upon casting). Persistent Shapechange on the whole party! Really cool, guy! Also, as with Transformation, you can choose to exclude yourself from this, so you can keep your spellcasting abilities if you decide they'd be better to have. (See also: The entire Polymorph line and subschool.)
    Healing Touch - Up to 10d6 healing, but you take half. Since it has become a chained spell, you could theoretically include yourself in the targeting, and actually just heal for half (healing full, and then taking half). You can't Persist this, but since you also can't cast Vigor, this is the next best thing.
    Spiderskin - +5 natural armor bonus to AC, +5 racial bonus to saves against poison and Hide checks. Dragonskin's weaker cousin, although the racial bonuses stack with all other skill bonuses and Fortitude save bonuses you could be receiving.
    Draconic Might - +4 (5?) enhancement bonus to STR, CON, CHA; +4 natural armor bonus to AC; immunity to magical sleep and paralysis. Transformation's potentially better cousin (depending on party dynamics). You're basically trading the +5 competence bonus to Fortitude saves with immunity to magical sleep and paralysis, and +4 DEX for +4 CHA. This one's all you.
    Nightstalker's Transformation - +4 enhancement bonus to DEX, +3 luck bonus to AC, +5 luck bonus on Reflex saves, +5 competence bonus on Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently, Weapon Finesse, proficiency with some martial weapons (mostly bows), +3d6 Sneak Attack damage, and Evasion. Combined with Draconic Might, you create a MUCH more fearful creature than Transformation ever could.
    Sonic Shield - +4 deflection bonus to AC, inflict 1d8 sonic damage and knockback to anyone who strikes you.

    Note that these are just the abilities that you can use with this trick that you couldn't use before. If you go a step further with a certain trick involving a certain acorn, you can cast your net wider, including tons of crazy shenanigans (a group of Shapechanged invisibles who deflect arrows! Antimagic Fields for everyone!). Worth noting that with this trick, I can have at my disposal a horde of Shapechanged monsters with the following bonuses (assume I'm using only the spells listed above):

    +22 AC (+6 armor bonus from Greater Mage Armor, +5 natural armor bonus from Dragonskin, +4 shield bonus from Shield, +4 deflection bonus from Sonic Shield, +3 luck bonus from Nightstalker's Transformation, +2 ability score bonus from Nightstalker's Transformation's DEX bonus, -2 AC penalty from Rage)
    +10 to all saves (+6 resistance bonus from Superior Resistance, +4 morale bonus from Greater Heroism), plus an additional +5 to Reflex (+5 Luck bonus from Nightstalker's Transformation) for a total of +15
    20 + CL temporary hit points (20 from False Life; CL from Greater Heroism)
    +4 to STR, DEX, CON and CHA (+4 enhancement bonus to STR, CON and CHA from Draconic Might, +4 enhancement bonus to DEX from Nightstalker's Transformation), plus an additional +2 to STR and CON (+2 morale bonus from Rage) for a total of +6
    +4 to attack roles (+4 morale bonus from Greater Heroism)
    +4 bonus to skill checks (+4 morale bonus from Greater Heroism), plus an additional +5 to Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently (+5 competence bonus from Nightstalker's Transformation) for a total of +9
    Energy Resistance 20 (from Dragonskin)
    Immunity to fear, sleep, paralysis, and mind control* (immunity to fear from Greater Heroism, immunity to sleep and paralysis through Draconic Might, and immunity to mind control from Magic Circle against X)
    +3d6 Sneak Attack damage (from Nightstalker's Transformation)
    Evasion (from Nightstalker's Transformation)
    Weapon Finesse (from Nightstalker's Transformation)

    That's a total of 12 spells on your daily buffing routine (counting Shapechange), not counting anything else you'd want to add that's not from this list (like Animal Growth if you Shapechange everything into animals, for instance, or Enlarge Person if you don't use Shapechange), and it's an extreme example, to be sure, but it still turns a single level 15 Wizard and up to 19 of his buddies into Epic-level creatures.

    The trick here is to have lots of low-HD minions (commoners from the Leadership feat, or mind-raped thralls, or undead summoned from Animate Dead) that you can pile the persistent, chained Personal buffs onto, and then use Shapechange to get around the fact that uber-buffed piddly little weaklings are still piddly little weaklings. (If you're feeling generous, you can include your party among the list of buffed thralls.)

    WARNING: This is God Mode. This is the stuff your DM warned you about. There's a reason my own Wizard/Incantatrix was a blaster.

    WARNING II: I don't know what changing the HD of a controlled undead through Shapechange does to your controlled undead pool. I don't know if there's even a precedent for that sort of thing happening, but I'm afraid to find out.

    Anyway, have fun with the guide! I wish there was something like this when I first discovered the Incantatrix, if only because I spent my first months believing the eighth-level effect (Easy Metamagic) to be the greatest effect of the bunch, and Metamagic Effect to be largely worthless.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    malachel: i greatly appreciate your handbook. keep it up! ;)

    i disagree that 'a handbook is not necessary at all', which is the opinion of some others here.
    first, some players really have no clue how powerful the prc is. especially if the only book you ever read is the PHB - which is true for MANY players out there. same for the base class of wizard, btw.
    2nd, to not have some crazy stuff happening a DM has to forbid this interesting MM-class. but with a handbook he can work out how to allow it to a player.
    also, it was mentioned before, some players like to have powerful characters (of course), which, however, are not gamebreaking. again, a handbook allows to devise rules for the DM and the player to make this happen.

    in my group (we play very occasional, with extremely slow xp progression; in 5 years we managed to get from lvl 1 to lvl 10) we did have an incantatrix; even though i am the DM it actually was my char (controlled by the others, though). spellcraft bonuses were limited, many rules are applied as intended and ridiculously crazy stuff is just not touched. it worked totally fine. my char mostly used persist to be buffed and thus hard to touch (though due to self-restriction at lvl 10 only lvl 1 spells could be persisted with take10), but besides that mostly did standard wizarding, BC and buffing in a limited manner. that was great, because everybody felt fine, the char was not truly outstanding in the group. recently i removed the char from the game (a new player joined, that step sounded reasonable to me), but i think i could have held myself down.
    my players minmax, limited by their knowledge of dnd, which makes it rather rare to happen finding something totally broken. and then again the gentlemen's agreement applies once more.
    i always want my players to feel powerful and having fun with that, not using many houserules and thus giving them the feeling of being without limitation when creating a char. it works out pretty well. they know that they can minmax in reasonable limits, once they find something they come to me and talk about it and we find a solution that restrains from forbidding it but keeping the power low.
    e.g. our druid has no real clue about the rules (after 3 years of playing ^^). she just enjoys having a nature-bound summoner. which 'downbalances' this class greatly back to the group's average power (mostly fancy combatants, no further caster). but her boyfriend found out about vow of poverty and addressed it to me. she never wades into melee - thus, i allowed abusing VoP power (which is bad for almost anything except druids) for self-defensive reasons. she now feels even more like a powerhouse, without really making use of it.



    btw, i remember reading some kind of 'non-official' errata, i guess from the sage, which says that the wording of "fixed-range" actually meant spells that emanate from you up to a fixed range. so according to this version all the ocular, arcane reach or whatever tricks are not working.
    i personally think that this is indeed the best way to read the 'fixed-range' part of persistent spell. can't find that particular comment though atm.
    maybe you want to include that interpretation in your guide somewhere.



    so that being said i have to read through the handbook once more later. a few suggestions:
    a) it might also be interesting to include a section that describes how to increase intelligence. the benefits are vast, regarding an incantatrix two are of specific importance: the number of applications per day and it's a second source of increasing your SC.
    b) fist of stone: you say it's crap, i disagree. it gives +6 STR enhancement. a hitting ray of enfeeblement can outright drop a wizard with low strength. it's not the best 1st lvl spell to persist, but if 1st level spells are the only spells you can persist at lvl 8/9, then this probably would be in my selection, i guess.
    c) ferocity of sanguine rage: it does not give a bonus on attacks, just on damage.
    d) if you have the source books, i remember two powerful spells missing on your list: necrotic burst (lvl 8), gives 100 tmep hp, +5 fort saves (competence?), +8 enhancement to DEX, INT and WIS. needs the necrotic cyst feat. it's from libris mortis. another one is the visage of the deity series (complete divine), notably the lvl 9 version gives UNNAMED bonuses to abilities. +4 to INT for evil casters. needs a way to access divine spells (e.g.arcane disciple).



    anyway, good job!
    i might leave some more comments later.
    Last edited by dps_kane; 2012-03-08 at 08:44 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Malachei's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Thank you, I will keep it up.

    I've been pretty busy, but I'll have an update soon, also incorporating the input you people gave, of course.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Personally, I don‘t think Guidance of the Avatar is balanced, and your DM should probably not allow it (Side note: Have you read this, Phaederkiel? See? Incantatrix has convinced me).
    I just found it...:)
    makes me somewhat warm and fuzzy inside to hear you say that.

    My Factotum 12 / swordsage 1 would also like to have that spell (to further buff his save-maneuvers and his insightful strike), but i just keep denying him...

    Great effort, and very useful spell list. I just found out what my UM is going to do with his last few levels.

    One question: does the otyugh hole thingy not strike you as absolutely cheezy? I think feat taxes are to be paid, As a dm I probably would not allow that kind of thing.

    I hope you get to colour-code your spells soon. Green for gishes?
    Last edited by Phaederkiel; 2012-03-14 at 08:32 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Nice Handbook, certainly was a help starting my incantatrix.

    When creating a new char it is always nice to have some help with finding those special feats and tricks without overlooking things, and then to be able to choose how I want to play it myself.......great ! and I thank you for it.

    While playing a few weeks now I am trying the spell quick-potion (Spc) and I was wondering if this makes me a even better party member then I already can be, by storing left over spells from the party into quick-potions before sleeping.

    Example; (I am currently lvl 10; wiz5/inc5)
    22:00 hours at camp I have lots of spells left to cast. So I use my (Extended?)quick-potion wand to burn all my left over spells using "channel charge" from lost empires of Faerun (or for those without the feat, just memorize it or burn the wand charges), and so create a few extended quick-potions. I also ask the cleric to cast a few cure moderate's into some quick-potions.

    Next morning (minimum 8 hours later) me and the party get all spells back, but the quick-potions still work ? If I extended them, duration is 20 hours ?

    Also, can I then extend the effect of the potion on the fighter after he drinks it later in the day, using metmagic effect ? For instance, the barkskin that the druid cast into the potion the night before.

    Edit; one more question; what is the casting time of my extended quick-potion wand ? I presume 1 minute per potion I want to create ?

    Thanks,
    Ohtari
    Last edited by Ohtari; 2012-05-02 at 09:03 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Malachei's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ohtari View Post
    Nice Handbook, certainly was a help starting my incantatrix.

    When creating a new char it is always nice to have some help with finding those special feats and tricks without overlooking things, and then to be able to choose how I want to play it myself.......great ! and I thank you for it.
    Thank you very much. I'm a bit overdue in updating it, but will do so soon.

    Next morning (minimum 8 hours later) me and the party get all spells back, but the quick-potions still work ? If I extended them, duration is 20 hours ?
    Yes.

    Also, can I then extend the effect of the potion on the fighter after he drinks it later in the day, using metmagic effect ? For instance, the barkskin that the druid cast into the potion the night before.
    Yes, as long as your DM's reading of "a spell effect that is already in place" includes spells on persons. Note the examples given include only [effect] spells, but the wording of the rules is really non-specific and could be interpreted either way.
    Last edited by Malachei; 2012-05-02 at 09:12 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    The only incantatrix i know is from magic of faerun. it has things like see ethereal and strike ethereal instead at second and third levels. what book is this one from?
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: [3.5] Incantatrix Handbook (WIP)

    Player's Guide to Faerun 59-63 is the most recent version of the Incantatrix. The Wizards website has the old 3.0 one from Magic of Faerun.
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