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    Default Eliminating the Horde-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    I enjoy D&D at mid-to-high levels. Characters have come into their own in terms of both power and story. They have time to enter a prestige class or two, have gotten most of their iconic abilities, and so on, but things haven't gotten utterly broken. There are still plenty of fun monsters, and characters are generally strong enough that the DM doesn't have to worry about accidentally killing them.

    There is, however, one downside: magic items. Buying magic items takes longer than almost anything else during character generation. Characters rely on numerical boosts from their gear to function, in many respects, but it's not 'cool.' What 10th level sorcerer would be without his Cloak of Charisma +4... but how many of said sorcerers really care about that item? The average mid-level character will have lots of smallish magic items that often provide individually insignificant boosts in power, but in combination become effective.

    That ain't cool. I want to make magic items rare again. I want every item the players find to be new and exciting. No +2 swords-- instead, the Sinner's Sword, a legendary weapon once carried by the Saint of Sinners, and said to be able to be unbreakable. A flying carpet should be a big deal. And so on.

    Of course, doing so means finding some way to make characters effective without all their toys, so I present to you the following changes. These replace the standard level-up benefits, and are divided into three categories: general, offensive, and defensive.

    These abilities are intended to provide a sufficient amount of power to make up for the severe reduction in magic items, while retaining a level of grit. That means no flashy spell-like abilities, no arbitrary growth of wings, and so on. Scaling items were rejected in favor of generic bonuses to all items, in the hopes of fostering a Conan-esqe attitude of "eh, just a sword. I'll throw it at the guard over there and grab another one from the guy I killed last round." Players should be attached to their characters, and the occasional rare artifact-- not their equipment.

    I admit that this probably benefits casters more than melee. I hope that this is balanced out by an increased demand for party buffs, however-- without magic items that provide mobility and defensive bonuses, casters will hopefully be forced to use more of their time to help their allies.

    General Abilities

    {table=head]Level|Feats|Ability Increases|Saves|Skills|Mobility
    1st |1st ||||
    2nd |2nd||||
    3rd||1st|||
    4th|3rd||+1 ||+10ft
    5th ||||1st|ACP -1
    6th |4th|2nd|||
    7th |||||
    8th |5th ||+2 ||+20ft
    9th ||3rd|||
    10th |6th |||2nd|ACP -2
    11th |||||
    12th |7th |4th|+3||+30ft
    13th |||||
    14th |8th ||||
    15th ||5th||3rd|ACP -3
    16th |9th ||+4||+40ft
    17th |||||
    18th |10th|6th |||
    19th |||||
    20th |11th||+10|5th |ACP -4, +50ft[/table]

    Feats: At 1st, 2nd, and every additional even-numbered level, a character gains one feat of his choice.

    Ability Score Increases: At level 3, and every subsequent third level, a character can increase on ability score of his choice by 2.

    Resistance Bonus to Saves: At level 4, a character gains a +1 resistance bonus to all saves. This bonus increases by 1 at every subsequent fourth level.

    Competence Bonus to Skills: At level 5, a character gains a +10 competence bonus to a skill of his choice. This skill must be a class skill, and he must have at least (1/2 level) ranks in it at the time he gains the bonus. At ever subsequent fifth level, he gains another such bonus, which he can assign either to a new skill or to a previously boosted skill, increasing its bonus to +20, +30, and so on.

    Mobility Bonus: At level 4, a character gains a +10 ft bonus to all movement speeds. At every subsequent fourth level, this bonus improves by 10ft.

    Armor Check Penalty Reductions: At level 5, a character may reduce the armor check penalty from any armor he wears by 1. At every subsequent fifth level, this reduction improves by 1.

    Offensive Abilities
    {table=head]BAB|Full BAB
    +1|
    +2|
    +3|
    +4|+1 enhancement bonus, weapon counts as magic
    +5 |
    +6 |
    +7 |
    +8 |+2 enhancement bonus
    +9 |
    +10 |
    +11 |
    +12 |+3 enhancement bonus
    +13 |
    +14 |Aligned Weapon
    +15 |
    +16 |+4 enhancement bonus
    +17 |
    +18 |
    +19|
    +20|+5 enhancement bonus
    [/table]

    Enhancement Bonus- All characters receive an enhancement bonus to attack and weapon damage rolls, based on their base attack bonus. Additionally, at the first level he receives a enhancement bonus, he weapon counts as magic for the purpose of overcoming DR and damaging incorporeal entities.

    Aligned Weapon- Any weapon wielded by a character with a BAB of +14 or greater counts as aligned with one axis (good, evil, chaotic, or lawful), based on the character's alignment and chosen when he gains the level granting him the BAB. A lawful good paladin, for example, can have his weapons treated as either lawful or good-aligned. A neutral good fighter, on the other hand, can only have his weapons treated as good-aligned.

    Defensive Abilities
    {table=head]Level|No Armor Proficiency|Light Armor|Medium Armor|Heavy Armor|Shields
    1st |||||
    2nd ||||+1 competence |
    3rd|||+1 competence |DR 2/-|+1 shield
    4th||+1 competence ||+2 competence |
    5th |+1 competence ||DR 2/-||
    6th |||+2 competence |DR 4/-, +3 competence |+2 shield
    7th |||||
    8th ||+3 competence ||+4 competence |
    9th |||+3 competence |DR 6/-|+3 shield
    10th |+2 competence |DR 2/-|DR 4/-|+5 competence |
    11th |||||
    12th ||+3 competence |+4 competence |DR 8/-, +6 competence |+4 shield
    13th |||||
    14th ||||+7 competence |
    15th |+3 competence ||DR 6/-, +5 competence |DR 10/-|+5 shield
    16th ||+4 competence ||+8 competence |
    17th |||||
    18th |||+6 competence |DR 12/-, +9 competence |+6 shield
    19th |||||
    20th |+4 competence |DR 4/-, +5 competence |DR 8/-|+10 competence |
    [/table]
    Characters use the column for whatever armor they are wearing.

    Special Exception— the Monk, and similar unarmored melee classes, are always treated as if they were wearing light armor for the purposes of these tables.

    Competence Bonus- Characters wearing armor gain a competence bonus to armor class, as indicated on the table above.

    Damage Reduction- Characters wearing armor gain damage reduction, as indicated on the table above. This DR stacks with any other form of DR they might gain.

    Shield Bonus- A character wielding a shield he is proficient with gains a bonus to the shield armor the shield provides based on his level. For example, a 6th level fighter wielding a heavy steel shield gains a +4 shield bonus to armor class, as opposed to the usual +2.

    New Feats
    Note that "Heroic" feats are purposed to allow some pseudo-magical effects back into the game, and aren't recommended for "gritty" campaigns.

    Hero's Touch
    Prerequisite: BAB +8, Charisma 13 or Wisdom 13
    Benefit: Chose one +1 weapon enchantment, such as flaming or ghost touch. Any weapon you wield gains the benefit of that enchantment.

    Hero's Touch, Improved
    Prerequisite: BAB +16, Charisma 15 or Wisdom 15, Hero's Touch
    Benefit: Chose one +2 weapon enchantment, such as flaming burst or holy. Any weapon you wield gains the benefit of that enchantment. You may only add one of the benefits from a Hero's Touch feat at a time.
    Special: If the +2 enchantment you wish to chose is an upgrade of the +1 ability from the original Hero's Touch feat-- for example, flaming and flaming burst-- you may trade out the original enhancement for a new one. For example, if Kursk the Barbarian chooses the frost enchantment with Hero's Touch, and the icy burst enchantment with Hero's Touch, he may trade the original frost enchantment for a ghost touch enchantment instead.

    Heroic Jump
    Prerequisite: Jump 10 ranks
    Benefit: You gain a "leap speed" based on your total Jump modifier (see: Skill-Movement Conversion table). Your armor check penalty is doubled when determining this modifier.

    You may jump any distance up to your leap speed as without having to make a check. If, after moving your complete leap speed (including up-and-down motion) you remain in mid-air, you begin falling. Having a running start gives you a +10ft bonus to leap speed. For example, a fighter with a leap speed of 40ft could jump 30ft straight up to attack an dragon flying overhead. He then falls 10ft safely (the remainder of his leap speed) and takes damage for the remaining 20ft of fall distance.

    If you roll a jump check, you may add your leap speed in place of your normal Jump modifier.

    Heroic Swim
    Prerequisite: Swim 10 ranks
    Benefit: You gain a swim speed, based on the Skill-Movement Conversion table below. You may also hold your breath underwater for twice the normal duration before you start having to make checks.

    Heroic Climb
    Prerequisite: Climb 10 ranks
    Benefit: You gain a climb speed, based on the Skill-Movement Conversion table below.

    Skill-Movement Conversion
    {table=head]Modifier|1-5|6-10|11-15|16-20|21-25|26-30|31-40|41-50|51-60|61-80
    Speed|10ft|20ft|30ft|40ft|50ft|60ft|70ft|80ft|90ft |100ft[/table]
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-08-31 at 10:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Horde-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Magic Items In Treasure

    Magic items can still be awarded in treasure; however, care should be taken to make sure that they are fun. DMs should avoid single-use items and items that duplicate functions organically integrated into characters during level-up, such as ability score boosters and cloaks of resistance. Instead, they are encouraged to leave:
    • Specific Weapons and Armor-- these are always more fun than 'plain' +X magic items. Their unique nature also makes it easier to come up with histories and legends about them, which should be included whenever magic items pop up, to help make them more special.
    • Magic items which benefit the whole party, such as a flying carpet. This should help prevent jealousy.
    • Usable magic items-- don't provide a Ring of Wizardy when the party consists of fighters and spontaneous casters. Don't hand out a Flame Tongue when the party fighter uses a greataxe.


    Such "real" magic items should always been plot-relevant-- a villainous knight can have a magic sword, and a nice old dragon might have amassed a few magic items in his years.

    Wands and potions should be more expensive-- say, twice the market value-- and much more rare, but they can be dropped more often than any other magic item, and sometimes even found for sale (although probably only in major cities). Scrolls, too, although it should be very hard to find high-level scrolls. Staffs run full circle to hyper-rare and exciting.

    General gold drops should also be lowered, without magic items to drop tens of thousands of gold coins on. Cutting monetary rewards down to a quarter doesn't seem too unreasonable.

    That being said, DMs should provide something for players to do with their money. Buy and equip a keep, for example, or a ship. A more realistic economic model would go very well with this system.

    High-Leveled Characters and Magic Items
    Characters created at higher levels who have been adventuring for a while probably have picked up a few magic items here and there. Here are a few guidelines about what they can have. (Besides wands, Scrolls, and Potions, which, as I already mentioned, should be acquirable at twice the normal cost)

    Level 1-5: Nothing
    Level 6-10: One minor magic item, affordable within the usual guidelines of (reduced) WBL
    Level 11-16: Two minor magic items or one medium magic item
    Level 17-20: One medium magic item and three minor magic items, or one major magic item.

    Items which provide numerical bonuses, whether they by Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a +4 sword, should not be allowed. In fact, I recommend rolling randomly on the Wondrous Items chart to determine what you start with, for a little added specialness and fun.


    Magic Item Crafting

    Obviously, if we limit the availability of magic items, we must limit their crafting. The simplest solution is to simply ban players from taking item creation feats, with the possible exception of Brew Potion, Scribe Scroll, and Craft Wand. If DMs do wish to support player crafting, I recommend the adapting some or all of the following guidelines:
    • Double the caster level requirement for all but the aforementioned feats.
    • Increase the crafting time to one week/1000gp of the item's base price.
    • Increase the xp cost to 1/10 the item's base price.
    • Require exotic locations or materials, such as might provoke a side quest.


    Exceptions to the Rules

    There are always exceptions. I'm sure that I haven't thought of them all; but for the moment, here's what I've come up with:
    • Monks, as I've already mentioned, should use the Light Armor proficiency table when calculating level-based abilities. The same goes for any other armor-less martial class that might be homebrewed in.
    • Artificers (the class) should not be allowed to exist in any campaign using this system.
    • Greater Magic Weapon now lasts 1 minute/level, instead of 1 hour/level. This way, enchanted weapons aren't replaced by a fire-and-forget buff.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2012-08-31 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Horde-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    You've used the wrong "horde." Horde is a group of Muslims or Mongols, Hoard is a collection of wealth...
    Last edited by Mulletmanalive; 2011-11-22 at 02:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Horde-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    I think you mean "Mongols." Unless you meant a mongrel horde.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Horde-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I think you mean "Mongols." Unless you meant a mongrel horde.
    Yep. Dang.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    I use something similar, but way simpler than your. We use it for...three years now, I believe. There are no static bonuses magic items (except resistance to energy and skill items), but characters gain the bonus by level.

    From my experience, it works wonders. It helps the non-casters a lot, because now they don't depend on items to just have level-appropriate static numbers, so they can spend some more on mobility, flying, whatever. It also allows for much better magical items, and many more items with names, since players will keep them instead of switching for a +4 cloak of resistance so they can stay relevant.

    Of course, mine is simpler (you can find it in this page, further down. It's on portugues, but most things are easy to understand, probably. http://segredosdealancia.blogspot.co...pecificas.html), but the idea is pretty much the same, and I have other tables that do things similar to your big tables.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Ok, I can see that you put a lot of work into this, but wouldn't it be simpler to just leave the magic items out of it and turn down the CR on encounters a little?

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Very interesting

    Some of the bonuses look somewhat high, the resistance bonus goes up to +10 as opposed to a +5 cloak for example.

    Most look fairly reasonable for a character of that level though.
    Last edited by Istari; 2011-11-22 at 09:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Ok, I can see that you put a lot of work into this, but wouldn't it be simpler to just leave the magic items out of it and turn down the CR on encounters a little?
    That'd make things extremely tricky since some features are more item-dependent than others. I'd say this system looks pretty good (although the mobility boost could be extremely dangerous in the hands of skilled players. "Kiting" is an even better tactic in D&D than in RTS's, against the right enemies.)
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Just to streamline the "Offensive Buffs" table, you could just list off the abilities in one table based solely on the Base Attack Bonus instead of the level. Ex:

    BAB Ability
    +1
    +2
    +3
    +4 Ability at +4
    +5
    +6
    +7
    +8 Ability at +8
    +9
    +10

    And so on... the only problem may be that the low BAB progression doesn't follow the same BAB-Ability synergy.

    Overall I like the idea, and totally follow the logic that players tend to supplement their characters' abilities with a cashe of magic items which separates them from their characters.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    As for the original idea; How does it take into account multiclassing?
    Last edited by Acidic_Cakes; 2011-11-23 at 01:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by RollynT.Glal View Post
    Just to streamline the "Offensive Buffs" table, you could just list off the abilities in one table based solely on the Base Attack Bonus instead of the level. Ex:

    BAB Ability
    +1
    +2
    +3
    +4 Ability at +4
    +5
    +6
    +7
    +8 Ability at +8
    +9
    +10

    And so on... the only problem may be that the low BAB progression doesn't follow the same BAB-Ability synergy.

    Overall I like the idea, and totally follow the logic that players tend to supplement their characters' abilities with a cashe of magic items which separates them from their characters.
    Agree with this. The current offensive bonus doesn't fit very well with multiclassing, streamlining it to benefits based on BAB would be better. To be honest I'd probably speed up that progression a bit, probably starting the +1 weapon at 2, so you get your +5 a bit before level 20.

    Also I would strongly recommend making them enhancement bonuses not competence bonuses. Not only does the competence bonus end up invalidating certain buffs that should still work, it makes the extremely common and easy to get buffs Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment stack with it.


    The ability score progression is both too slow and too fast at the same time. It STRONGLY encourages MAD classes. You should make it so you get more bonuses to more abilities, but not necessarily so much to a single ability.

    For example this is what I use:
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    All characters use point buy for character generation. Typically a 28 point buy. At every level beyond first, the characters get +1 point they can spend on their attributes using normal point buy rules. They may choose to spend this point immediately or save it until a future level up. They may raise an attribute above an 18 after level 1 via point buy, doing so continues following the normal progression rules (so going from 18 to 19 costs 4 points, from 20 to 21 costs 5 points, etc). This replaces the normal +1 to an attribute gained at every 4th level.

    In this way a character's maximum base attribute would be a 21 (spending 16 attribute points via level up) with 3 points left over to be spent somewhere else. A character who started with a 16 would be able to raise this to 20 (spending 14 attribute points via level up) with 5 points left over to be spent somewhere else. A character who started with a 14 would be able to raise this to a 20 with 1 point leftover.

    This progression encourages spreading stats out a bit more, and helps MAD characters a lot in catching up with their SAD counterparts at higher levels.


    Then I also give enhancement bonuses to attributes at every even numbered level. At 2nd level, and every even numbered level after, you gain +1 to 1 stat. Starting at 6th level, you begin getting +1 to 2 stats every even level. At 10th level you begin to get +1 to 3 stats. At 14th level you begin getting +1 to all stats.

    So in the end, you get +10 Enhancement to 1 attribute, +8 to 1, +6 to 1, and +4 to the other 3.


    In exchange for these two attribute progressions, I eliminate all attribute enhancement items, including tomes. Wishes may still be used to increase an attribute, but it is now used to increase the enhancement bonus to an attribute, and may not exceed your highest enhancement bonus. (So you could use 2 wishes to bring your secondary stat up to a +10 as well). Most buffs that directly affect stats are changed to enhancement bonuses, and thus overlap with the enhancement bonuses. The only current exception to this are size bonuses and Rage.

    This makes it pretty consistent that a characters primary stat ends up ~30-34 by level 20, with a fair spread among other attributes.




    I don't think the bonus to movement speeds is necessary here, and the reduction in ACP comes too slowly for my taste. By level 10 a character wearing armor made of mithril no matter what type it is should have either no ACP or one so low that it doesn't matter. Armor restricting what you can do is a low level thing, and it still bothering high level characters is just a punishment for high level armor proficiency.

    On the other end of the extreme, that resistance bonus to saves scales monstrously. +2 every 4 levels, ending at +10? Any particular reason to go so far beyond the normal save bonus? Also why not make this +1 per 2 levels?
    Last edited by Seerow; 2011-11-23 at 01:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Is it intended for lighter armored characters to be able to take armor proficiency feats for passive bonuses to defenses? The rule states the character's level of proficiency, so with this a Barbarian can take heavy armor prof and gain DR 4/- and +4 AC without ever needing to put on a set of plate armor.

    I, like RollynT.Glal, would recommend switching the BAB progressions for a straight "at so and so BAB, you gain this" - it would simplify it somewhat and help solve the riddle of how multiclassing would work.

    Also, your Medium armor table is wrong, unless medium armor characters only get +1 to AC throughout.
    Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2011-11-23 at 02:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    I guess you really hate the monk (3/4 bab, no/light armor, no shield, MAD). Similar problem (though slightly lessened) with the warmage.

    I understand that it helps fighters and hurts druids, but it seems to me that low BAB characters are already penalised, and the half bab classes won't be bothering with weapon attacks anyway. I can understand why you did it, and I think it will work well if you listen to the 'fixes' made by previous posters.

    Edit: As for the mad thing, why not take a leaf out of the vow of poverty's book and give multiple bonuses to ability scores so that by level twenty they have a range of plusses that SADs will just let go to waste.
    Last edited by Rainbownaga; 2011-11-23 at 07:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    So basically, I almost never buy the kinds of item this stuff covers. I mean, yeah, I'm gonna jam my casting stat into the ceiling. But other than that, it's all resistance items, initiative, weird casting crap, mostly just... not... this stuff.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Osagasu, it is NOT intended for characters to be able to move up the defensive table by taking armor proficiency feats. I may make some sort of advanced armor proficiency feat that lets you do that, but for now, I'll make a note about it in the section.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I guess you really hate the monk (3/4 bab, no/light armor, no shield, MAD). Similar problem (though slightly lessened) with the warmage.
    Those are actually two of my favorite classes. But, well... the Warmage is a caster. He's not supposed to ever be in melee, what with his low BAB. He gets armor proficiency, though, which means he gets the bonuses.

    The monk... well, the monk is broken. I'm not trying to fix it right now. There are a number of excellent fixes out there (I personally use jiriku's). The light armor thing is because they are a lightly-armored melee class, they just get Wisdom to AC instead of actual armor.

    You guys are right about basing offensive abilities off BAB, and the Medium Armor table has a typo. I'll fix both.

    The save bonuses were higher than normal because you won't be able to buy the gear that normally helps protect you from death effects, energy attacks, and so on. I guess I can lower it.

    To be honest, I'm not altogether sure about the 'mobility' column. I kind of threw it in at the last minute...

    EDIT: Changes made. Also threw in a few new feats.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-11-23 at 10:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    While the rules for Hero's Touch are in the new feats section, they're not described under offensive bonuses. While it's pretty easy to extrapolate what it's intended to do based on the feat, it really should have rules explicitly stated.

    The armor bonus requirements may be stated better as "Characters use the column for the highest armor proficiency granted by their class levels."

    With that it's clearer what exactly is going on, and it also makes way for classes that provide higher proficiency as they level.
    Last edited by Ilorin Lorati; 2011-11-23 at 11:29 AM.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    With a point of clarification on Hero's Touch; when you reach the level where you gain a new bonus in that, does that mean you can switch out your previous Hero's Touch for something with a higher bonus, or can you only add on to what you previously had.

    As an example, Say I have the ability to give my weapons the Frost property, and then I reach level ten. May I switch out my Frost weapon ability for, say, an Icy Burst ability, or do I have to keep the Frost ability, and then just give my weapons Ghost Touch as well.

    Alternatively, would this mean I could switch out my +1 ability for two different +1 abilities? For example, at level 10 I could change my Frost weapons into Keen Shock weapons?

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    For the pony campaign that I'm building, I'm just taking the expected WBL in personal enchants so that they are encouraged to spend their actual wealth on trivial things and aren't carying a wardrobe of trinkets and knicknacks.

    I know part of your design decision is to speed up character generation for mid level characters, but maybe you should allow a 'special power' option where they have a certain amount of money they can use to buy an item that has a real and useful effect?

    So a warmage could have a metamagic wand, a rogue could have a ring of invisibility or a fighter could have a means of short-term flight? You could just assume they have the power inherently, or let them have one such item.

    Just saying, it would be nice to have something to actually choose when building say, a warmage, rather than having all my effective WBL spent on saves, armor, attack bonuses, and a stat bonus that doesn't even scale like actual enhancement bonuses.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Hmmmm.....sounds a lot like the premise behind Weapons of Legacy: Reduce role of magic items/give melee people a reason to keep that random longsword throughout their adventures instead of chucking it for a shiny new one every encounter. I'd suggest taking a look at it sometime.

    Still, mechanically, this seems sound, and is a good alternative to Weapons of Legacy if you don't like WOL and don't feel like just taking out the massive penalties for the weapons.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osagasu View Post
    While the rules for Hero's Touch are in the new feats section, they're not described under offensive bonuses. While it's pretty easy to extrapolate what it's intended to do based on the feat, it really should have rules explicitly stated.
    Whoops. They actually shouldn't be there at all.

    The armor bonus requirements may be stated better as "Characters use the column for the highest armor proficiency granted by their class levels.
    That does sound better, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acidic_Cakes View Post
    With a point of clarification on Hero's Touch; when you reach the level where you gain a new bonus in that, does that mean you can switch out your previous Hero's Touch for something with a higher bonus, or can you only add on to what you previously had.

    As an example, Say I have the ability to give my weapons the Frost property, and then I reach level ten. May I switch out my Frost weapon ability for, say, an Icy Burst ability, or do I have to keep the Frost ability, and then just give my weapons Ghost Touch as well.

    Alternatively, would this mean I could switch out my +1 ability for two different +1 abilities? For example, at level 10 I could change my Frost weapons into Keen Shock weapons?
    The idea is that you chose an entirely new ability. RAW, you can't switch out the previous one, but... hmm. It should be allowed in the case of elemental abilities. I'll make a note.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbownaga View Post
    I know part of your design decision is to speed up character generation for mid level characters, but maybe you should allow a 'special power' option where they have a certain amount of money they can use to buy an item that has a real and useful effect?

    So a warmage could have a metamagic wand, a rogue could have a ring of invisibility or a fighter could have a means of short-term flight? You could just assume they have the power inherently, or let them have one such item.

    Just saying, it would be nice to have something to actually choose when building say, a warmage, rather than having all my effective WBL spent on saves, armor, attack bonuses, and a stat bonus that doesn't even scale like actual enhancement bonuses.
    I was actually thinking that characters should have a certain very low number of magic items on creation, if they start at higher levels, representing the result of previous adventuring. I got hung up on how much to give them, though.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    So, the general section completely invalidates the fighter class, by giving fighter feat progression to all characters.

    The bonus to speed also invalidates the fast movement abilities of the barbarian and the monk.

    Also, I think the competence bonus to skill checks should have some kind of minimum skill rank prerequisite. It doesn't make sense for someone who spent 5 levels as a paladin to suddenly get much better at Use Magic Device or Tumble.

    The ACP reductions make sense. I've always felt that ACP should be based on a character's carrying capacity (not Strength, per se, as Size is also a factor) as in the current system, a titan is slowed equally as an elf with 6 Strength, when both are wearing breastplate. Always struck me as a little odd.

    I agree that the competence bonus should be changed to an enhancement bonus, but at the very least, change the bonus to apply to "weapon damage rolls". Otherwise you're going to find some kind of Warmage Edge thing going on where dudes get 1d4+6 magic missiles and stuff.

    Defense Table- Hooray for monk-bashing! Seriously. ...Wait...

    Aw, come on! You made an exception for the monk? That's not very nice. Now the chaotic monk battle dancer feels left out.

    I have a question though: Why does a fighter wearing leather get the same benefits as a fighter wearing full-plate? You tried to skirt this by saying "Armor Proficiency feats don't grant you the benefits", but why don't you just say "You get the benefits while you're actually wearing the armor"?

    Solves the main problem. Rogues and rangers are still restricted to light by their class features, wizards and sorcerers restricted to none, but now if a fighter loses his armor he isn't still Superman shrugging off blows while he's shirtless. (That is awesome, but it's very much barbarian territory, and rightly so)
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-11-27 at 09:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    So, the general section completely invalidates the fighter class, by giving fighter feat progression to all characters.

    The bonus to speed also invalidates the fast movement abilities of the barbarian and the monk.
    The fighter class pretty much invalidates himself, although it's worth pointing out that he still gets twice as many feats as everyone else. The barbarian and the monk will still be faster than other characters, and to the same degree that they were before.

    Also, I think the competence bonus to skill checks should have some kind of minimum skill rank prerequisite. It doesn't make sense for someone who spent 5 levels as a paladin to suddenly get much better at Use Magic Device or Tumble.
    At the very least I'll limit it to a class skill, yeah. Good point.

    I agree that the competence bonus should be changed to an enhancement bonus, but at the very least, change the bonus to apply to "weapon damage rolls". Otherwise you're going to find some kind of Warmage Edge thing going on where dudes get 1d4+6 magic missiles and stuff.
    You're not the first person to mention that the bonus should be changed to enhancement, so I suspect that there's a point to be made here. Very well. Voila! It is done. I'll also specify that the bonus only applies to weapon damage.

    Defense Table- Hooray for monk-bashing! Seriously. ...Wait...

    Aw, come on! You made an exception for the monk? That's not very nice. Now the chaotic monk battle dancer feels left out.
    The monk class has its own problems, but like I said, I'm going for simplicity, not fixing class-vs-class balance. Not sure what the battle dancer is, but the exception should apply to any class with no armor proficiency and a defense boost, like the monk.

    I have a question though: Why does a fighter wearing leather get the same benefits as a fighter wearing full-plate? You tried to skirt this by saying "Armor Proficiency feats don't grant you the benefits", but why don't you just say "You get the benefits while you're actually wearing the armor"?
    Umm... erm... I think my original thought-process was that I wanted to a) reduce gear dependency all-around, and b) that fighters, paladins, and the like with heavy armor had the most defensive fighting training. Now that I think about it, it doesn't make all that much sense

    Solves the main problem. Rogues and rangers are still restricted to light by their class features, wizards and sorcerers restricted to none, but now if a fighter loses his armor he isn't still Superman shrugging off blows while he's shirtless. (That is awesome, but it's very much barbarian territory, and rightly so)
    No, he's dodging and parrying, but... yeah, see the point.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-12-07 at 10:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Eliminating the Hoard-- a semi-simple proposal to reduce the role of magic items.

    Added a note about starting equipment for higher-leveled characters, a few new movement-related feats, and introduced the idea of a "leap speed." Flight will be a lot harder to come by for monks, fighters, and the like, but super-epic leaping is, in my mind, an acceptable counterpoint...

    I also may be running a campaign using this variant over winter term (January). Stay tuned!
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-12-07 at 11:04 PM.

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