General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

[Reynard]

Regarding the Abyssal discussion a couple of pages back... I didn't see this mentioned, but they removed the Spectral Keyword. Abyssals don't have to spend WP to use those Charms outside of Shadowlands anymore.

No need for the "Deliberately be nice to make my own Shadowland" plan.

[TheCountAlucard]

Regarding the Abyssal discussion a couple of pages back... I didn't see this mentioned, but they removed the Spectral Keyword. Abyssals don't have to spend WP to use those Charms outside of Shadowlands anymore.

Unless they've released more errata since my latest download, no, they haven't; they merely removed it from a quite a bunch of Charms.

[Reynard]

Unless they've released more errata since my latest download, no, they haven't; they merely removed it from a quite a bunch of Charms.

Okay, so they didn't remove the Keyword from the game. They removed it from very nearly all of the charms that had it (and more importantly, from all of the charms you'd actually want to use), which is pretty much the same thing.

[TheCountAlucard]

They removed it from very nearly all of the charms that had it

From what my eyes tell me, they removed it from exactly two of the Charms that had it.

and more importantly, from all of the charms you'd actually want to use

I'll go back to muttering dark things in the corner, now, and looking over my crafter Abyssal...

which is pretty much the same thing.

(scurries away)

[DrakeRaids]

The remainder of Charms in the tree have no additional prerequisites. None are needed at that point because by that point, the Infernal is hardly human any longer: he has been shaped by his passions into a caricature of what he used to be. While I'm not one of those pessimists who insists that the Devil-Tiger may never change and instead insist that the Excellency may change by degrees. Nevertheless, a Devil-Tiger has lost his full range of human potentiality; he has become an objective creature like the Primordials and will only change his passions when he is given a reason to fundamentally doubt himself.

While I found everything else you said to be fascinating an eloquent look at Infernals, that last sentence is both objectively and thematically false. I'm thinking that you started building up steam there and maybe ran a little further then you intended. A DT can be inclined to act how they want, but if their is a better solution, outside their excellency they can take it. A DT with a theme of screaming doom and murder can choose to sneak. A DT whose themes revolve around peace and neutrality can get pissed and kick someones ass. This is what makes DT's so power, and so frighting, and what makes them greater then their patrons, more then the sum of their parts. All in all I think you're overstating this 'vicious circle' a tad much. A DT is not an objective creature, and has not lost their human potential. They can choose to ignore it, but its still there.

[Gensh]

While I found everything else you said to be fascinating an eloquent look at Infernals, that last sentence is both objectively and thematically false. I'm thinking that you started building up steam there and maybe ran a little further then you intended. A DT can be inclined to act how they want, but if their is a better solution, outside their excellency they can take it. A DT with a theme of screaming doom and murder can choose to sneak. A DT whose themes revolve around peace and neutrality can get pissed and kick someones ass. This is what makes DT's so power, and so frighting, and what makes them greater then their patrons, more then the sum of their parts. All in all I think you're overstating this 'vicious circle' a tad much. A DT is not an objective creature, and has not lost their human potential. They can choose to ignore it, but its still there.

What I was going at here is that while a Solar can pick up a new Excellency and start to practice a new thing, redefining himself by it, an Infernal cannot change his own Excellency except by fundamentally changing his own character, which is to say that the process is backwards. It's still technically possible for him to change, but it is exceedingly unlikely, throwing it firmly in the range of PC-only, which means that it is irrelevant in a dialogue on Infernals as a whole. Not to mention, no matter what an Infernal might have done, he still came into his power by failing hugely. While some will inevitably break free of self-doubt, for most, it will remain on at least a subconscious level. Most Devil-Tigers won't exactly feel comfortable acting in such a way that they lose out on the use of most of their own personal Charms. It's never not in theme for them as Solaroids to overcome this, but again, for the purpose of discussion, let's leave PCs out of this. As still technically human, Devil-Tigers are the same blend of objective and subjective as most other members of their species, but their Charmset is an objective derivative of their mental state. Since they retain the degree of subjectivity possessed by all humans, they are capable of reaching outside of themselves with ease, yet most would choose to play it safe and remain within themselves, growing complacent in their power just as the First Age Solars did.

[Lord Raziere]

Yea, but they can still learn other excellencies of y'know….other Devil Tigers and there are still Yozi charms they probably haven't learned. a single Infernal Excellency is broad in application; imagine what would happen if they managed to learn all six of them in addition to their Devil Tiger…..the real potential of the Devil Tigers is not just becoming their own Primordial but being able to become a conglomeration of many Primordials in one.

[Turalisj]

By your powers combined....

[Gensh]

Yea, but they can still learn other excellencies of y'know….other Devil Tigers and there are still Yozi charms they probably haven't learned. a single Infernal Excellency is broad in application; imagine what would happen if they managed to learn all six of them in addition to their Devil Tiger…..the real potential of the Devil Tigers is not just becoming their own Primordial but being able to become a conglomeration of many Primordials in one.

Well, first of all, there's no way to learn the Charms of other Devil-Tigers without said Devil-Tigers inventing the Yozi Charm that allowed the conspirators to link their Charmsets to the GSPs in the first place. Not to mention that getting a new Yozi Excellency, man-made or otherwise is prohibitively expensive (60+ XP). Likewise, significantly investing in the Charms of a non-Favored Yozi will result in costs mounting faster than a Solar doing the same in many cases, due to Yozi Charm trees frequently being convoluted in structure. Again, it's possible, it's just less likely than Ma-Ha-Suchi keeping it in his pants.

By your powers combined....

We're not talking about Dragonblooded.

[DrakeRaids]

What I was going at here is that while a Solar can pick up a new Excellency and start to practice a new thing, redefining himself by it, an Infernal cannot change his own Excellency except by fundamentally changing his own character, which is to say that the process is backwards. It's still technically possible for him to change, but it is exceedingly unlikely, throwing it firmly in the range of PC-only, which means that it is irrelevant in a dialogue on Infernals as a whole. Not to mention, no matter what an Infernal might have done, he still came into his power by failing hugely. While some will inevitably break free of self-doubt, for most, it will remain on at least a subconscious level. Most Devil-Tigers won't exactly feel comfortable acting in such a way that they lose out on the use of most of their own personal Charms. It's never not in theme for them as Solaroids to overcome this, but again, for the purpose of discussion, let's leave PCs out of this. As still technically human, Devil-Tigers are the same blend of objective and subjective as most other members of their species, but their Charmset is an objective derivative of their mental state. Since they retain the degree of subjectivity possessed by all humans, they are capable of reaching outside of themselves with ease, yet most would choose to play it safe and remain within themselves, growing complacent in their power just as the First Age Solars did.

Before I wade into this, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying to prevent any misunderstand, and some things I believe you misunderstood from me.

First, I don't believe infernals need to change their excellency their once they've reached devil tiger. Honestly, I think a DT who ascended, then realized they hated the person they where has an interesting story in it, and it would be interesting to see what they would do about it.

Second point is a nitpick really, an infernal doesn't have to fail. Its just the vast majority do, but you're point is solid there, I just once again feel your overstating the self doubt into crippling proportions. Furthermore, in many cases this self doubt could just as easily lead to one keeping a healthy since of prudence on over-relying on their own power. It really messed them up once didn't it? And since then everything they've down has been built from the shoulders of giants.

Anyway!

Assuming I understand correctly, you believe that DT's will almost always act in accordance with their personal charms and excellencies as the inclination to follow their own passions and methods is to tempting to ignore. You also believe this will lead to a level of thematic blindness, to a level of parallel with the Yozi's themselves. The only ones able to break this mold are PC's, which should be understandably removed from the discussion. Is this correct?

[Gensh]

First, I don't believe infernals need to change their excellency their once they've reached devil tiger. Honestly, I think a DT who ascended, then realized they hated the person they where has an interesting story in it, and it would be interesting to see what they would do about it.

That would indeed make an interesting story, and since there has been no Word of God handed down on the subject, that is an equally valid interpretation. By and large, however, I believe that the pervading belief is that even the Yozis' own Excellencies are mutable, in part because that way it's less cumbersome to a player who wants to take his character in a different direction and partially to allow those few characters who actually want a Yozi reeducation ending (which somehow ended up being my entire group, despite having no Infernals).

Second point is a nitpick really, an infernal doesn't have to fail. Its just the vast majority do, but you're point is solid there, I just once again feel your overstating the self doubt into crippling proportions. Furthermore, in many cases this self doubt could just as easily lead to one keeping a healthy since of prudence on over-relying on their own power. It really messed them up once didn't it? And since then everything they've down has been built from the shoulders of giants.

I always saw it as the Yozis grooming the GSPs into being really pathetic under a veneer of grandeur so that they'll be more pliable and easier to kill once they've cracked hell open. Between unlimited carrots and an absolutely horrifying stick, a GSP who actually overcomes his own weaknesses would be a minority. Most might not be a gibbering wreck, but at the very least, they're more likely to indulge themselves and run away from things to lick their wounds than press onward in the face of adversity.

Assuming I understand correctly, you believe that DT's will almost always act in accordance with their personal charms and excellencies as the inclination to follow their own passions and methods is to tempting to ignore. You also believe this will lead to a level of thematic blindness, to a level of parallel with the Yozi's themselves. The only ones able to break this mold are PC's, which should be understandably removed from the discussion. Is this correct?

That is indeed my position. The only NPCs in the entire setting with any sort of genre savvy are probably Luna (especially Luna), Her Redness, Ledaal Kes, Tepet Arada, etc. (and an undefined number of raksha). Creation's is a history of geniuses making really stupid decisions one after the other. The Yozis are creating their own replacements in more ways than one. Of course, part of the issue here is whether there should be NPC Devil-Tigers at all, in which case I lean on the side of them being exceedingly rare or nonexistent.

[DrakeRaids]

That is indeed my position. The only NPCs in the entire setting with any sort of genre savvy are probably Luna (especially Luna), Her Redness, Ledaal Kes, Tepet Arada, etc. (and an undefined number of raksha). Creation's is a history of geniuses making really stupid decisions one after the other. The Yozis are creating their own replacements in more ways than one. Of course, part of the issue here is whether there should be NPC Devil-Tigers at all, in which case I lean on the side of them being exceedingly rare or nonexistent.

Yeah, I think I've only seen one NPC devil tiger off the top of my had. In any case, consider the kind of Infernal likely to -become- a Devil Tiger. The requirements alone promote a kind of thinking in and of themselves, they prevent relying on a single charmset, and even assuming a DT -only- relies on actions that enhance his charms, he's been using charms that come form others for in, all likelihood several years now. Why would he just stop? For an infernal to reach devil tiger they must be willing to think outside the neat boxes the Yozi offer. Is it unreasonable for this tendency to continue even after they ascend?

Because honestly, I understand where your coming from when you believe that the DT will begin to act far more in accordance with their passions and beliefs then before, I think though you are either drastically underestimating the Yozis thematic slavery, or underestimating the DT's.

Think about it, really imagine the fact the Yozi have a -zero- die pool. Wouldn't being able to throw just a few dice to solve a problem a different way be a massive improvement over that? Let alone if they invested in a different excellency.

[Gensh]

Yeah, I think I've only seen one NPC devil tiger off the top of my had. In any case, consider the kind of Infernal likely to -become- a Devil Tiger. The requirements alone promote a kind of thinking in and of themselves, they prevent relying on a single charmset, and even assuming a DT -only- relies on actions that enhance his charms, he's been using charms that come form others for in, all likelihood several years now. Why would he just stop? For an infernal to reach devil tiger they must be willing to think outside the neat boxes the Yozi offer. Is it unreasonable for this tendency to continue even after they ascend?

Because honestly, I understand where your coming from when you believe that the DT will begin to act far more in accordance with their passions and beliefs then before, I think though you are either drastically underestimating the Yozis thematic slavery, or underestimating the DT's.

Think about it, really imagine the fact the Yozi have a -zero- die pool. Wouldn't being able to throw just a few dice to solve a problem a different way be a massive improvement over that? Let alone if they invested in a different excellency.

I suppose it's really just a matter of opinion. I see it as most of the Devil-Tiger NPCs as being like young adults who've finally left home. Unless we're dealing with someone more mature than average, then I see the Devil-Tiger letting himself go, regardless of how he had been acting while trying to get out from under the Yozis. There's certainly a difference in simply maturing into an adult and evolving into a Devil-Tiger, but only by degrees. While the latter process is metaphysically very complicated, mentally the processes would be as automatic as maturing. I see the discovery of the Triumphant Howl as being a sort of random fluke rather than a deliberate exercise in mental expansion in most cases.

[Story Time]

It...is starting to make me smile when someone in this thread says, "What you think does not fit the material of the manuals so it is false," and then several posts later says, "This other part of the manuals I personally dislike so I just pretend it doesn't exist and give more weight to my opinion."

This kind of thing should make me frown, shouldn't it?

[Turalisj]

Hmmm... Can anyone help me out with making this artifact? I'm looking to design a 5-dot artifact using the reaper daiklave for the base, based off of the Ten Commandments sword from Rave Master. The idea is that it has different aspects based on what type and how powerful the hearthstone in it's slot is.

So it would have 10 different forms, varying in power from 1-5 (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, Abyssal, Infernal). Since it's a solar character creating it, making it base orichalcum would be best.

Any ideas?

[DrakeRaids]

Hmmm... Can anyone help me out with making this artifact? I'm looking to design a 5-dot artifact using the reaper daiklave for the base, based off of the Ten Commandments sword from Rave Master. The idea is that it has different aspects based on what type and how powerful the hearthstone in it's slot is.

So it would have 10 different forms, varying in power from 1-5 (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, Solar, Lunar, Sidereal, Abyssal, Infernal). Since it's a solar character creating it, making it base orichalcum would be best.

Any ideas?

Alright. Cool idea. You are effectively asking for an artifact with 50 different forms though, so you may want to rein that in just a tad.

[Feriority]

An easy way to keep that from exploding too much is to only really make the ten base forms distinct, and have the five power levels just be straight numerical effects, so they don't need distinct effects. I'm not too familiar with the original, but it might even be feasible to make the weapon have the same base stats across all 10 forms, and just grant a form-specific bonus that scales with hearthstone level plus aesthetic changes?

[Lord Raziere]

Hey, I have an idea….

there are people who complain about large numbers of dice needing to be used for Exalted and such….

well how about a certain level of power or something, there is a mechanic called "Minimum Success" where the actions that you automatically succeed at are raised.
for example, for an ordinary mortal always succeed at things like talking, walking, y'know ordinary everyday things right?

well I'm thinking a certain point, to cut down on the number of dice you use at high levels, you just raise the bar for Exalts and such for what counts as something you just automatically succeed at, requiring no dice for, and the remaining dice are rolled for whatever is higher than that.

the only problem is establishing numbers…..

[Kyeudo]

Other problem: If you can automatically succeed at hiting DV 15, the Exalted could never have realistically overcame the Primordials.

[Lord Raziere]

*Face Palm*
Please, This is not meant to change the setting, its only a rules abstraction so that you don't have to roll tons of dice, just let it be a rules abstraction, please.

Please. all I am saying….is that at a certain point, its kinda pointless to roll for something that would take only a fraction of the Exalt's dice to do. I mean, lets say I have an Exalt with a dice pool of 50, all Minimum Success says is something like: "you automatically succeed at 25 of that, since you would probably succeed at any action requiring that much anyways, now you only have to roll 25 dice, now our work has been cut in half." that is all I am saying.
This is only to speed up the game, it doesn't apply to the actual Exalted world, it just makes the game go smoothly. This change has nothing to do with the Primordial War, its just about making things go faster.

and furthermore, the game engine is not the physics of Exalted. its just there to tell a story. for the purposes of the story, that rule would not apply to the Primordials.

[Turalisj]

An easy way to keep that from exploding too much is to only really make the ten base forms distinct, and have the five power levels just be straight numerical effects, so they don't need distinct effects. I'm not too familiar with the original, but it might even be feasible to make the weapon have the same base stats across all 10 forms, and just grant a form-specific bonus that scales with hearthstone level plus aesthetic changes?

That's what I was thinking for this. The sword would have 10 different forms, each one would have it's power amount depend on the hearthstone in the socket.

The major drawback to it, is of course, getting access to that many hearthstones. To use is at it's full potential you would need 50 dots worth.

[Story Time]

[...]there is a mechanic called "Minimum Success" where the actions that you automatically succeed at are raised.
for example, for an ordinary mortal always succeed at things like talking, walking, y'know ordinary everyday things right?

...I do not think that I would use this idea in its current iteration. A player rolls a die when there is uncertainty. A player rolls when there is a possibility for failure. There are only a scant few applications that I can think of to have a player roll for some result other than Success-Versus-Failure.

It is an idea, though. It may be an interesting idea. It could be made more interesting with a chart and outlines of actions along with difficulties associated with those actions for Exalt-level characters. But at present, I would not use the idea.

Post is polite as usual.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Turalisj, and what with ... for example, Heartstone from Imperial Manse ?

[Dragnar]

Raziere: Actually, there is a little-used rule for exactly what you are proposing in the core book. Check "Automatic Success" on page 124.

[Lord Raziere]

Well according to that rule...

7 dice = automatic difficulty 1 success
10 dice = automatic difficulty 2 success
13 dice = automatic difficulty 3 success
16 dice = automatic difficulty 4 success
19 dice = automatic difficulty 5 success

and so on…

22-6
25-7
28-8
31-9
34-10.

problem is Solars get like a 40-something max dice pool so…..

37-11
40-12

so yeah, mathematically proven that Solars don't just go to eleven, they go right past that and rocket up to 12

[TheCountAlucard]

problem is Solars get like a 40-something max dice pool so...

Pretty sure I've rolled more than 40 dice a few times... though I don't actually have forty dice; I ended up having to roll my fifteen or so dice three times, as far as memory recalls...

so yeah, mathematically proven that Solars don't just go to eleven, they go right past that and rocket up to 12

Perhaps, perhaps. Really, the "automatic success" rule doesn't apply to every situation - it's there so one's thirteen-dice medic never has a chance of being beaten by Flux, for instance, or if you want to dispense with the rolling for the creation of an artifact - I wouldn't use it for "battle by rote," as it were.

[Fortuna]

In fact, as I recall the rule calls out that you can only use it against the DVs of extras, never important people.

[Dragnar]

Yeah, the rule explicitly says it cannot be used in combat, or anywhere failure would be dramatically appropriate. It's to save time where the rolls don't matter, not ensure you never botch.

[Gensh]

So I've been working a bit on the MSPFA (though I won't be able to start until I return to school since I didn't have the forsight of bringing my tablet). Anyway, I was putting together some of the text information and was wondering if I missed any important ships. Fanon will obviously be used because there wouldn't be enough silliness otherwise.

Spoiler

Show

Mutual

<3
Luna <3 Gaia
Maidens (Collective) <3 Sol
Saturn <3 Sol
Szoreny <3 Isidoros

<>
Tepet Arada <> Tepet Ejava
Ledaal Kes <> Ragara Szaya
Luna <> Sol
Szoreny <> SWLIHN

c3<
Luna c3< Luna & Luna

<3<
Mnemon <3< Tepet Ejava
Malfeas <3< Szoreny
Sol <3< Laashe

Double Reacharound
Chejop Kejak <3/< Ayesha Ura


Unrequited

<3
Ebon Dragon <3 Scarlet Empress
Venus <3 Everyone
SWLIHN <3 Malfeas
Cecelyne <3 Szoreny
Silver Prince <3 Lilith
First and Forsaken Lion <3 Princess Magnificent

<>

c3<

<3<
Szoreny <3< Solars

Double Reacharound
Lilith <3/< Silver Prince
Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears <3/< Silver Prince

[Qaera]

Nox <3 Ahlat

~ ♅