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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by aetherialDawn View Post

    Drascin is going to be... well, probably unsurprised.
    I point out that Oneiromancy is slightly easier to stop (for Exalted) than Astrology. Sort of. More shaping defenses are applicable to it, anyway.
    Unsurprised indeed. I have made a Raksha or two - I may not be Meschlum but I know you can pull off a lot of really nice buffing with them .

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    also here is a bad idea: making 3-dot+ artifacts to cast certain sorcery spells.
    I want to make those, but something keeps telling me that is a bad idea….
    There's a canon artifact, Spell Capturing cords, that can store a spell to be cast later. They start at Artifact 3 for Terrestrial circle, and go up from there. Still, someone needs to cast the spell on the artifact for it to be captured, and to use the cord again you need to cast a spell on it again.

    So, yeah, I think a 3 dot artifact that casts spells seems a bit low. What exactly did you want them to do?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Well, since I don't have the ST book or whatever the relevant book is...

    Who's Nara-O? Or is it just "DM decides"?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    Well, since I don't have the ST book or whatever the relevant book is...

    Who's Nara-O? Or is it just "DM decides"?
    Naro-O is described in the Sidereals book, and probably some others. He is the top ranking god in The Forbidding Manse of Ivy and is God of Secrets Only One Person Knows.
    Last edited by Sanguine; 2011-11-28 at 03:38 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by meschlum View Post
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine View Post
    Naro-O is described in the Sidereals book, and probably some others. He is a the top ranking god in The Forbidding Manse of Ivy and is God of Secrets Only One Person Knows.
    Does that mean he knows who made the Five Maidens?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    He knows secrets known to only one person. If two people know the secret, then he no longer has access to it in his file.

    So that depends on your game, does more than one entity know of the creation of the Maidens?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    He knows secrets known to only one person. If two people know the secret, then he no longer has access to it in his file.

    So that depends on your game, does more than one entity know of the creation of the Maidens?
    Of course gods from the Division of Secrets probably don't count otherwise he wouldn't know any secrets. What with Jupiter knowing all secrets and the inevitable overlap with other Secret Gods.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalisj View Post
    He knows secrets known to only one person. If two people know the secret, then he no longer has access to it in his file.

    So that depends on your game, does more than one entity know of the creation of the Maidens?
    The Canonical answer is, IIRC, that only Jupiter knows.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    There's a canon artifact, Spell Capturing cords, that can store a spell to be cast later. They start at Artifact 3 for Terrestrial circle, and go up from there. Still, someone needs to cast the spell on the artifact for it to be captured, and to use the cord again you need to cast a spell on it again.

    So, yeah, I think a 3 dot artifact that casts spells seems a bit low. What exactly did you want them to do?
    eh, just fire Flight of the Brilliant Raptor at people for some reason. mostly one spell per artifact.

    but…..eh….guess I already have other stuff to blast explosives with….but it does bother me that 4-dot artifacts are defined as Celestial circle, 5 dot as Solar circle, but the Codex doesn't say what level of artifact would do Terrestrial circle stuff, hmm……

    edit: oh and before I forget, I figured out how to solve Exalted: More Gameplay and Story Segregation. Needs more GASS.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2011-11-28 at 05:14 PM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    edit: oh and before I forget, I figured out how to solve Exalted: More Gameplay and Story Segregation. Needs more GASS.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Yes! It solves all problems. It does not matter whether you are part of 10,000 Dragons of 50 Green Sun Princes, they don't actually exist. What matters is that your character is awesome and that you have fun. Why? because your the PC's. thats all the explanation needed, the story is about your character after all, why limit the story you could tell with them by entwining them with mechanics?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    I'm uncertain what you mean by "gameplay" and "story" in this case.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    ok, to be more accurate "mechanics" and "fluff". mechanics the gameplay, fluff is the story. we simply separate them a little, and things will be a bit better. the fluff is for an interesting story. mechanics is so that game is fun. I don't think mechanics and fluff being completely merged makes a fun Exalted game.
    to make it more fun, we separate them a little, allow the charms to be closer to PC charms that help them be awesome and have fun, rather than what they intended to be in the fluff.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Yes! It solves all problems. It does not matter whether you are part of 10,000 Dragons of 50 Green Sun Princes, they don't actually exist. What matters is that your character is awesome and that you have fun. Why? because your the PC's. thats all the explanation needed, the story is about your character after all, why limit the story you could tell with them by entwining them with mechanics?
    For many people one of the major draws of Exalted is the lack of segregation, there's a better word for it but I can't remember it. It's cool and interesting that say the Virtues are actual cosmological truths in the setting. If we segregate mechanics and story why bother even playing Exalted? Why not Fate, or Mutants and Masterminds, or on the other end of the scale, regular old free form collaborative storytelling.

    These are all great and interesting things to do. But they aren't Exalted, and neither would Exalted be if you separated game play and story. That is one of the unique and defining features of Exalted. Without the transparency between setting and mechanics you might as well be doing any of the things I mentioned above.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    …..nevermind then. I guess all I do come up with bad ideas to your point of view
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    ok, to be more accurate "mechanics" and "fluff". mechanics the gameplay, fluff is the story. we simply separate them a little, and things will be a bit better. the fluff is for an interesting story. mechanics is so that game is fun. I don't think mechanics and fluff being completely merged makes a fun Exalted game.
    to make it more fun, we separate them a little, allow the charms to be closer to PC charms that help them be awesome and have fun, rather than what they intended to be in the fluff.
    It's still very murky, and statements such as "mechanics makes the game fun" is quite simply wrong in my own very limited experience. Also, it implies that "fluff" (for some value of the term) does not make the game fun, which I also heartily disagree with: it's basically the only redeeming factor of Exalted.

    What I read your text as is: why not let Terrestrials rule Malfeas? Why not let Solars live in Heaven? Stuff like that. Doing that is fine for you own games, and make no mistake: no one can tell you it's "wrong" to do that at your own table. However, I don't see what it has to do with mechanics?
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    …..nevermind then. I guess all I do come up with bad ideas to your point of view
    I am sorry if you took my disagreement personally. I was just expressing my difference of opinion on what would be a good way to make the system better. If I really thought you had nothing but bad ideas I would have ignored you long since; and thus not have responded to this idea at all.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Because.

    If mechanics are separated from fluff, then you can freely design charms as you wish without the story of more powerful characters holding the awesome back.

    therefore, you can freely design Lunar, Sidereal, Dragon-Blooded and other charms that while may catapult them beyond their power level, and because they are separate from the fluff and are closer to heroic versions of the Exalt than the Exalt themselves, without compromising fluff, as NPCs wouldn't use PC charms and such in story, for example the NPC dragon-bloods would be easily defeated, while PC dragon-bloods would be the real heroes and kick ass. you could then tell any story with any splat

    but yeah….now I realize that I might as well use any other system to do that as well and her I thought I had a solution...
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Yeah, that's basically tearing down the majority of the stuff that makes Exalted what it is.

    Using another system is a great idea, though.

    Funny how in D&D, you're encouraged to change fluff if it doesn't fit. In Exalted, you're encouraged to change the system
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    I've said it before: Exalted is the bizarro world of RPG's.

    instead of having little fluff and a well-designed system that everyone breaks, the system is already broken and everyone is trying to fix it to fit the awesome superton of fluff its interlocked with.

    instead of changing the fluff and coming up with your own world, everyone hold Exalted's fluff as sacrosanct and tries to change it as little as possible.

    instead of being an RPG where what the DM says goes, the players just do whatever and the ST tries to keep up and adapt to their outrageous shenanigans.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Never had any problems with Players in Exalted. Whatever they want to do I let it fly ... and let them deal with consequences.

    For example, I usually name NPCs by numbers, just like in D&D campaign I roll since my Players tend to have Dungeon Crawling mode always-on.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    I actually find myself agreeing a bit with what I think Raziere meant (for once! ). Exalted, in my eyes, is rather hurt by its fixation with having the rules be absolute laws of the world, having the rules always be basically in-game constructs instead of simple shorthand for the benefit of player simulation. It could do with a bit more abstraction.

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    I would love for "charm mechanics" to be fair, for once. Current edition is favoring Solaroids to such degree that I find it mite unpleasant.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    yea….cause…how to explain it….you try and stick too close to how the world works and not how the game works, and well….they are two different focuses here. one is about modeling the world as realistically/logically/whatever as possible.
    The other is about making the game fun. They are not always compatible.

    I can't explain exactly how, but there are just some things that could be dealt with in a manner that is about playing a game rather than modeling what actually happens. I might have to find examples or something.

    edit: but I can think of an example where abstraction has actually done well: The Great Curse and Virtues, I don't view the limit track or the virtues as actual in game constructs, they are just ways of modeling psychology and working out a subtle curse and such rather than how they actually work in the actual Exalted world. and I'm fine with that.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2011-11-29 at 03:40 AM.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drascin View Post
    I actually find myself agreeing a bit with what I think Raziere meant (for once! ). Exalted, in my eyes, is rather hurt by its fixation with having the rules be absolute laws of the world, having the rules always be basically in-game constructs instead of simple shorthand for the benefit of player simulation. It could do with a bit more abstraction.
    It could certainly do with a bit more abstraction.

    I also think, however, that the interaction between setting and mechanics are at the very core of Exalted and there is nothing to be gained by removing it, as such, and I believe it can easily becomes more abstract without cutting into that fidelity.

    Also, as Holden has been fond of pointing out recently, if you look at the mechanics to inform the setting, then you're doing it wrong. The proper order is the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere
    yea….cause…how to explain it….you try and stick too close to how the world works and not how the game works, and well….they are two different focuses here. one is about modeling the world as realistically/logically/whatever as possible.
    The other is about making the game fun. They are not always compatible.
    Stop right here, because this annoys me to no end.

    There are two creative agendas (in fact, general GNS theory assumes three archetypical creative agendas, but in Exalted, there's generally only talk about two) that somewhat conflict in Exalted: simulationism and narrativism. The one focuses on making the world as internally consistent as possible, the other focuses on the story that the PCs tell throughout the game.

    Both of these approaches are aimed at having fun. It's just that, surprise, different people have fun in different ways.

    I agree that the two agendas aren't always fully compatible, and makes people prioritize differently in different situations, though.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    I think that having charms be absolutely balanced is not a good idea. The idea that a Lunar is just as strong as a Solar is not meant to be part of a setting; doing the same to the dragonblooded snaps the Wyld Hunt in half and means that it's much harder for Solars to fight Dragonblooded, since every such fight will need to be a climactic encounter until the Solars have enough Essence to face much lower-Essence DB's.

    Should every splat have charms the others don't, meaning that each is actually useful if they're all together? Yes, certainly. Put a lot of Dragon-Blooded with teamwork charms together and they should be able to do things that a Solar would genuinely have more difficulty doing.

    Put a Sidereal in there, and they should be able to do fate-twisting, Heaven-using nonsense that a Solar genuinely CANNOT do. Can the Solar do something which is 'more powerful'? Maybe, but it should not be the same thing.

    And Lunars need to be more than "The best unarmed combatants." Yes, it's a good role that they do well - and yet, as we've seen, that purely mechanical balance is simply not what they need at all.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Quote Originally Posted by Weimann View Post
    It could certainly do with a bit more abstraction.

    I also think, however, that the interaction between setting and mechanics are at the very core of Exalted and there is nothing to be gained by removing it, as such, and I believe it can easily becomes more abstract without cutting into that fidelity.

    Also, as Holden has been fond of pointing out recently, if you look at the mechanics to inform the setting, then you're doing it wrong. The proper order is the other way around.
    For this we probably should get a bit more cohesive setting and stuff, I'd say. But in any case, it's certainly not how people usually use the "interlinked mechanics and setting" thing. Just think of the usual Usurpation debates. Nobody ever says "the mechanics say the Usurpation could have never happened, hence we need to rewrite the mechanics to give DBs a chance". People say "the mechanics say the Usurpation could have never happened, therefore we need to change the Usurpation (circumstances, numbers, whatever) so that the mechanics say it could happen".

    But honestly, I've always been in the camp that thinks that if rules et in the way of a good story, the rules get tossed from the window of a fourth same building .

    Quote Originally Posted by aetherialDawn View Post
    And Lunars need to be more than "The best unarmed combatants." Yes, it's a good role that they do well - and yet, as we've seen, that purely mechanical balance is simply not what they need at all.
    Not even that, really. I'm reminded of this rewrite of a comic from the Lunar book that had Ma-Ha-Suchi chewing out his junior for losing to Panther in a fist brawl, and the younger Lunar goes pretty much "dude, have you seen Solar Hero lately? It gets like a million billion expansions! What was I supposed to do?"

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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    I'm not necessarily shouting "EXALTED EQUALITY!" or anything. I'm just saying that with some level of abstraction, would allow us to tell a wider range of stories, some y'know flexibility, because it would be more abstracted, it wouldn't impact canon when the Dragon-Blooded PC's being somewhat more badass than the rest of their peers and defeating Anathema a little more often or something.

    and I hate Solar/oids being the only ones who can save everything, because for some reason every time something tells me "Solars can solve it!" I want to play a Full Moon, maul a Solar to shreds, then try and solve the problem without a stupid Solar ever being needed. as in I want to save the world, without involving Solars, when sticking so close to the worlds physics makes the entire setting revolve around them and makes all the good charms slanted towards them, just because they are Solars. some abstraction will help get rid of the "Solars are the center of everything" problem Exalted seems to have.
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    Default Re: General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

    Oh, I agree that Solaroids shouldn't be the only ones who can save the world. Lunars, Sidereals, Terrestrials these should all get to be heroes in their own stories. If not why play them at all?

    However segregating story and gameplay is not the way to go about things in my personal opinion. Sure some more abstraction could help but too much would take away what makes Exalted Exalted. Even then it doesn't solve the problem only ameliorate it.

    Dragon-Blooded working in concert should be able to reach and even exceed Solar levels of power. This doesn't require GASS as it is already supported by the story.

    Sidereals should be much weaker than Solars when they try and tackle a problem head on. But when they come up with circuitous ways of solving their problem they should shine as brightly as any Solar.

    Lunars, well I'm not sure what Lunar themes are. But withing there own theme they should match/exceed Solars.

    When looking at the Exalted it is best to remember that they were designed as an army. You don't make one section of your army inferior than another. That's just plain stupid. But you do give each section of it their own unique strengths.

    The Terrestrials work in concert being the rank and file of the army. The Solars do what they are best at and lead the army as generals. The Sidereals are your special forces dealing with problems a direct application of force can't solve. And Lunars do something.
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