General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

[TheCountAlucard]

Actually, you can withdraw a commitment at any time.

Oh? I'm afraid I didn't see where it said anything like that in regard to artifacts, though I saw that it did work that way for Charms...

And regardless, withdrawing your commitment to the artifact while you're in midair seems like a bad idea, and if you wait to deattune until after you've landed, then it's still going to take some time to get those motes back; there's no commitment required for sorcery, so chances are that by the time you get where you're going, you're back up to full.

And re-attuning to the thing will still take twenty minutes.

[Tavar]

You only need the artifact to cast the spell, you don't need to use the spell after it's cast.

[Lord Raziere]

well I considered a 10m attunement and a 5m activation cost instead, but I wanted you to consider the harshest cost I had in mind first.

and Tavar, Four dot artifacts are explicitly stated in Oadenol's codex to be Celestial Circle effects and Five dot artifacts to be Solar circle effects, while three-dot artifacts are roughly equivalent to 3 or 4 essence solar charms, so I'm guessing that three dot artifacts also cover Terrestrial effects.
You are actually underestimating how powerful artifacts are. really I just want to have fun making artifacts and creating stuff, I don't see why everyone goes into a tizzy every time I make one thats the least bit out of place.

So for your information, I don't care if you think that sorcery effects are overpowered for 3-dot artifacts, I trust Oadenol's Codex guidelines more.

[MickJay]

Consider a one use item capable of casting a single, Terrestrial circle spell as a 5 tick long action, after which it becomes for all intents and purposes worthless. Would you rate it at 2 or 3 dots, and with what attunement and activation cost in motes?

[meschlum]

Clockwork Owl and Scrapwork Tome

Just as Sorcery is beyond the purview of Creation, so is the Wyld. Thus, to the alien reasoning of the Fair Folk, it makes perfect sense for one to become the other. Unfortunately, the Laws written by the Primordials are less susceptible to the whim of the Raksha, and the Diplomat they sent to seek out the Principle of Sorcery never returned. Instead, the Owl assembled itself from bits and pieces of sorcerous tomes, each fragment turning into brass and fitting into its increasingly arcane machinery.

On its own, the Owl is merely a strange device, as hard to destroy as any artifact but lacking any significant power. When it is placed beside the Scrapwork Tome, however, it is frightfully empowered and can convey, or create, a plethora of magical feats. Once the springs driving it have run down, the Owl becomes dormant, and will only function again if the Tome, and by extension itself, is fed.

The Tome is a thick book, bound in gems and adamant, and contains arcane knowledge too abstract to be of any use to the Creation-born. Some few Lunars on or past the edge of Chimerism insist that it contains powers beyond imagining, but they are mad. What is known is that the Tome is inert unless fed - and it consumes bits and pieces of magical writing, making it an immobile foe of the Ink Monkeys. Once supplied with sufficient theses on matters sorcerous, the Tome converts them into weird brass devices and endows anyone consulting it with alien insights.

1-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Tome simply is magical mystery.
Manacles of Virtue (x3) - the Tome considerably enhances the Cup, Sword, and Heart Graces of anyone reading it - meaning it is entirely useless to ordinary Creation-born.

The Owl is a creation level Essence 4 Diplomat who has gone through Extinction of the Self, and possessed Birth 4 and Style 5 (either via backgrounds or Style Improving Spirit. Legality is debatable (the easy option is to use a Worker without Extinction of the Self and All Consuming God Monster Stance instead, but it's more broken so we shall not speak of it further), but you get 3 uses of any Terrestrial Sorcery you can imagine per season.


Board of Dance and Travel

A truly bizarre creation of the Wyld, the Board was first seen used in the depths of Primal Chaos, where a foolish Raksha prince challenged a Hanya to a dancing contest. Despite the punishing rhythm and weird motions required, the Raksha won, returning to the edge of Creation with the Board and a plethora of alien tunes.

In the Wyld, this powerful device can be used to create that epic contest once more, as those who would fight its master find themselves stuck in place, arcane runes at their feet and a bizarre mirror before them. As a song from the depths of the Wyld emerges from the mirror, the contestants must move according to inhuman patterns dictated by the mirror, suffering mockery and opprobrium if their steps are less than perfect. When the song ends, the winner is declared, and none shall dare to contest it - until the next quarter, that is.

In Creation, the Board can be brought into existence by placing a single, large jade coin into a suitable slot. Then it spreads out to cover the vicinity, and can be commanded through dancing. So long as its master matches the tunes the Board creates, it will fly at an incredible pace, carrying its master and those nearby to whichever destination they desire.

4-dot Behemoth
Assumption of the Land's Heart - when the coin that is the Board's manifestation is activated, it converts a small area around it into a more suitable setting, with mirrors and floor runes for all.
Gossamer Wing Flight - the Board, when active, can fly.
Wings - don't ask.
Racing Dragon Speed (x5) - the Board is unspeakably fast when attuned to an owner who understands the principles of the Sword.

This could actually be done with a 2-dot Behemoth and a 1-dot Oneiromancy, but we're going for style rather than function. Per the core book, a speed of 45 yards per tick is 100 miles per hour (Stormwind Rider). Attuned to a Sword 5 Warrior with Dex 4, the Board has a move of 58 (Dash 70), so 130-150 mph. A noble (or Worker with access to the Tome) could triple that.

Dance, peons, dance!


In practical terms, the suggested Cirrus Horn isn't overly broken as is. However, it sets a troubling precedent - two of the (presumed) balancing points of Sorcery are the high mote cost and casting time.

With an artifact that charges you 0 motes for casting the same spell more than once, and lets you cast without risk of a miscast, spamming Obsidian Butterflies and Magma Kraken suddenly becomes an issue. Though repeating the same spell over and over is boring, so the Raksha won't do it.

[Lord Raziere]

Consider a one use item capable of casting a single, Terrestrial circle spell as a 5 tick long action, after which it becomes for all intents and purposes worthless. Would you rate it at 2 or 3 dots, and with what attunement and activation cost in motes?

1 dot. being only useful once is a pretty high drawback, and since it casts in five ticks, which is actually longer than the time it takes to cast the actual spell, I question why design it in the first place, and set the mote cost pretty low for both, as why invest any time or effort into it, if its going to be useful only once? and at a longer casting time? when I want an artifact, I want to be able to use it consistently and derive multiple use from it, a one time thing? I might as well just use the spell itself! completely worthless!

[Tavar]

and Tavar, Four dot artifacts are explicitly stated in Oadenol's codex to be Celestial Circle effects and Five dot artifacts to be Solar circle effects, while three-dot artifacts are roughly equivalent to 3 or 4 essence solar charms, so I'm guessing that three dot artifacts also cover Terrestrial effects.
You are actually underestimating how powerful artifacts are. really I just want to have fun making artifacts and creating stuff, I don't see why everyone goes into a tizzy every time I make one thats the least bit out of place.

So for your information, I don't care if you think that sorcery effects are overpowered for 3-dot artifacts, I trust Oadenol's Codex guidelines more.

Well, for your information, you're wrong. Four dot artifacts are called out as being Celestial sorcery level, but 5 dot artifacts are as well. Thus, it's a bit of a grey area, one which, in my opinion, it's better to stay on the harsher side.

Additionally, going strictly by the books guidelines leads to such stuff as Uber Deathlords, scenelenght flawless perfects, and other such events. Considering that the guidelines are also extremely vague, and I generally look less to the guidelines themselves, and more to artifacts on a similar level. For example, the magitech artifacts or the Landship.

[Lord Raziere]

yes, but the Oadenol's Codex guidelines about creating artifacts are things I like to go by the book. Much more possibilities that way. would you rather have me deviate from the books as you do, but in the opposite direction and make the powers even wider? perhaps put some Terrestrial effects on a two dot level? hmmm?

but I don't. Unlike you, I like the artifact creations guidelines as is. does not need modification in my opinion, unlike yours.

[DrakeRaids]

yes, but the Oadenol's Codex guidelines about creating artifacts are things I like to go by the book. Much more possibilities that way. would you rather have me deviate from the books as you do, but in the opposite direction and make the powers even wider? perhaps put some Terrestrial effects on a two dot level? hmmm?

but I don't. Unlike you, I like the artifact creations guidelines as is. does not need modification in my opinion, unlike yours.

Thats the worst attempt at a strawman then I've seen in ages. If you're going to grossly misrepresent someones point, at least do it well.

[senrath]

1 dot. being only useful once is a pretty high drawback, and since it casts in five ticks, which is actually longer than the time it takes to cast the actual spell

Um, a Terrestrial Circle spell takes 5 ticks to cast. Celestial is 10, and Solar is 15.

[Dragnar]

yes, but the Oadenol's Codex guidelines about creating artifacts are things I like to go by the book. Much more possibilities that way. would you rather have me deviate from the books as you do, but in the opposite direction and make the powers even wider? perhaps put some Terrestrial effects on a two dot level? hmmm?

but I don't. Unlike you, I like the artifact creations guidelines as is. does not need modification in my opinion, unlike yours.

Er... how does deviating from the guidelines LIMIT your possibilities? I can create an artifact to do just about anything without them, but with them... no so much. Those things are ridiculously vague, and don't match up to the actual power level of canon artifacts at all. By those guidelines, I could create a 3 dot artifact that gives a mortal access to perfect defenses.

Though beyond that, I'll agree that a terrestrial circle effect is appropriate for an artifact 3. Your artifact is actually WORSE than the spell though, and more importantly it's BORING. Just flat out "this artifact casts this spell" is not exactly what those guidelines were going for. Artifacts can have equivalent power to that spell, sure. But fluff is important to exalted, and that's a really boring way of doing things.

[meschlum]

Notes from the Salinian Academy

Somehow, the Fair Folk managed to infiltrate the classes in which Salinia sought to inculcate the principles of Sorcery to her peers and followers during the First Age. Rumors whereby her Working might have been viewed as impressive enough to outdo the great deeds of Desus are completely unfounded, and it is purely coincidental and evidence of her poor planning that said classes degenerated into custard pie throwing matches.

In any event, the Raksha took the essence of these sessions and through the weird alchemy of the Wyld transmuted them into a spell of horrific power. For the Notes to function properly, they must be brought to a gathering of scholars of the esoteric arts, and scribbled upon madly while discussions about sorcery and magitech take place. The principles of essence manipulation and geomantic design are also legit.

Once the notes have grown to sufficient profusion, the lorekeeper sets them on fire, and from the flames withdraws a single, massively enchanted custard pie. Said pie must be used in the next part of the debate, or the effort invested into making the Notes work is useless, much like the debate itself - at least, from the Raksha perspective.

When flames, pies, and insults have stopped flying, the Fair Folk finds itself in possession of the activated Notes, which are so energized by the pointless bickering that their rage will last a hundred years. Or until they admit someone else may have a point, but current estimates place that event as occurring precisely never in the entire history of Creation and Time-Not. Even probing the alternate temporal currents created during the Primordial War suggests such an event is utterly impossible.

The fair Folk continue to research this potential Uber-Shinma, but in the meantime the Notes remain a potent tool.

5-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Land's Heart - the Notes will infect any debating hall or forum they are brought into.
Mad God Mien - being entirely incoherent, counter arguments (or counter magic) will have no effect on the Notes.
Unitary Being Forge - anyone speaking about arcane matters will be perceived as saying the most insulting and dismissive things possible about alternate views of essence manipulation, as well as expressing unspeakable intentions towards every listener's mother.
Curse of Definition - wherever the Notes are present, it is strictly impossible to reach an agreement concerning topics thaumaturgical or pie related.

Happy now?

[aetherialDawn]

If people make more flame wars, will you make more amazing raksha fun?

Is this your secret plan? To drive the internet into such chaos seeking Meschlum-styled fun (and pursuing its native proclivity towards Fire) that it drops into the Wyld through rage and desire now combined, and nobody notices until it is too late?

[Lord Raziere]

Er... how does deviating from the guidelines LIMIT your possibilities? I can create an artifact to do just about anything without them, but with them... no so much. Those things are ridiculously vague, and don't match up to the actual power level of canon artifacts at all. By those guidelines, I could create a 3 dot artifact that gives a mortal access to perfect defenses.

Though beyond that, I'll agree that a terrestrial circle effect is appropriate for an artifact 3. Your artifact is actually WORSE than the spell though, and more importantly it's BORING. Just flat out "this artifact casts this spell" is not exactly what those guidelines were going for. Artifacts can have equivalent power to that spell, sure. But fluff is important to exalted, and that's a really boring way of doing things.

…..you know what, nevermind, I'll go make something else

oh right: that reminds me, Alchemical Colossus charm idea:

Unfolding Vehicular Transformation
Allows the Colossus to turn into an artifact vehicle rated three dots or higher, similar to a Lunar's spirit shape.

if you want to know the point of this charm remember the words: More than meets the eye.

[Kyeudo]

I just finished reading CoCD: Autochonia, so I decided to run an Alchemicals game.

Some Assembly Required

[Story Time]

Notes from the Salinian Academy

Cute!


Shame, though, that Tavar invests such negative energy in telling others that they are wrong with such...gusto. It's both amazing and disappointing to watch. Tavar should well know that an opinion which deviates from the published manuals is not canon...and therefore wrong.



It's just...saddening, really. It makes me, personally, sad. Some things may be wrong in the real world, but differing opinions about Exalted should not be one of them.

Consider a one use item capable of casting a single, Terrestrial circle spell as a 5 tick long action, after which it becomes for all intents and purposes worthless. Would you rate it at 2 or 3 dots, and with what attunement and activation cost in motes?

This is a talisman or thaumaturgical item. Any such item which becomes inert after one use with no possibility of restoring its intended function breaks the most basic principle of an artifact. It would be like any other one-time-use item in any other role-play game. Artifacts are meant to be persistent objects which have enough history that they become characters unto themselves.

Still, giving a pip value to such an item is not a strange ruling. The strangeness is that it could be used only once without the possibility of recharging it.

[DrakeRaids]

One might find it equally saddening others can't put more then a half a seconds thought into their own ideas. It might save much effort on the sides of both parties, which could then be put towards actual constructive purposes. It really is a shame isn't it?

[Story Time]

True... This is a general discussion thread, not the official home-brew forum where home-brew is meant to be stored on this web-site.

[TheCountAlucard]

Any such item which becomes inert after one use with no possibility of restoring its intended function breaks the most basic principle of an artifact.

Soul-Breaker Orb.

[Story Time]

Gee, that must mean that either my opinion or the Soul-Breaker Orb is not canon. I wonder which.

[Kyeudo]

Soul-Breaker Orb.

Skin-Like-the-Mountains Oil.

Thousand-Forged Dragons.

Sun's Fist Chakrams.

Eight-Scream Devi Powder.

There's not a lot of one-shot artifacts, because no one really likes paying 3 Background dots for something that only works once, but they do exist.

[Rikandur Azebol]

And this 4dot sun-cream that give Appearance 10. Is also one-shot artifact. Sol wasn't amused when lazy Zeniths used it to "restore" beauty of his temples.

[Lord Raziere]

True... This is a general discussion thread, not the official home-brew forum where home-brew is meant to be stored on this web-site.

Ok, you want me to get out and make my own homebrew thread, just say it to my face already. either you are also aiming this at meschlum, which I doubt, either say nothing or say it right to my face, full and honest. don't try and do this "politeness" thing that is supposed to be subtle or anything. What I respect is honesty, and I suspect that all of you honestly only want meschlum to show you all his works in this, you sure never complain about him.

so yes, I'll get out, make my own homebrew thread, leave room to meschlum, since clearly thats the only person you want making anything in this thread.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ok, you want me to get out and make my own homebrew thread, just say it to my face already. either you are also aiming this at meschlum, which I doubt, either say nothing or say it right to my face, full and honest. don't try and do this "politeness" thing that is supposed to be subtle or anything. What I respect is honesty, and I suspect that all of you honestly only want meschlum to show you all his works in this, you sure never complain about him.

so yes, I'll get out, make my own homebrew thread, leave room to meschlum, since clearly thats the only person you want making anything in this thread.

Wow. You've been cranky lately. You got a new job or roommate recently?

[Lord Raziere]

Wow. You've been cranky lately. You got a new job or roommate recently?

No, it just seems that almost every idea I come up here with seems to be bad to other peoples point of view. I want to come up with a good one and make something awesome, cause thats what I always want to do. need to keep working to make something better.

[Turalisj]

Why do you think I've stopped posting any ideas at all?

[Kyeudo]

My suggestion is to learn to enjoy criticism. Almost none of it is without merit, though some have more merit than others.

[Lord Raziere]

I wasn't kidding when I said I wanted honesty. Tell me, because I have no answer to a question that only you know.

[Gensh]

No, it just seems that almost every idea I come up here with seems to be bad to other peoples point of view. I want to come up with a good one and make something awesome, cause thats what I always want to do. need to keep working to make something better.

I've been staying out of this since it's trending in the direction of a meeting of the Ebon Dragon's third circles, but I suppose at this point I should offer some advice rather than watching the train wreck (even if watching train wrecks fall in the purview of my Excellency). Quite frankly, as DrakeRaids said, it simply doesn't look like you put a whole lot of thought into many of these ideas that you post and even still, you post an awful lot of them. Design for an extant RPG involves a lot of cross-referencing; even if there are given rules for creating a certain type of homebrew (for example artifacts), you should put the most stock in simple comparisons to other, official, items, as Tavar said. Your creations are often disapproved of because you do not tend to do this and sometimes make items that are either grossly out of line with established effects or else don't make sense for the setting. While it is true that Exalted's setting is driven by the PCs, they must have the same tools as everyone else or it removes what was special about them in the first place, not to mention that these tools will by their very nature promptly fall into the hands of NPCs, which can cause the setting to break.

[Lord Raziere]

bah, I prefer a challenge! I would gladly try and figure out a way to defeat a bunch of enlightened mortals with artifacts that grant perfect defenses!

that and by the rules isn't always the best way to play any game, and besides the only setting rules I would truly never try to break are the ones that are truly impossible: time travel, resurrection, unExalting. I haven't made an artifact that does any of these and never will, so therefore if anything else is possible, then its possible and I accept that.