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    Default Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    The rogue isn't really a bad class, in a vacuum, but it has two big problems:
    • Its main form of offense, sneak attack, is defeated by many different kinds of foes, and several easily-obtainable items.
    • Its signature abilities, trapfinding, lockpicking, and sneaking, are all more effectively duplicated by second level spells.

    I've attempted to rectify both problems. As a matter of necessity, there are a set of spell nerfs (Knock, Find Traps, and the Invisibility line) at the end.

    A lot of this is copied directly from the SRD, but I've tried to italicize new material, to make it easier to spot. So, without further ado...

    The Rogue
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Sneak Attack Damage
    1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Sneak attack, trapfinding, stealthmaster|+1d6
    2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Evasion, Rogue Knack|
    3rd|+2|+1|+3|+1|Trap sense +2, Insightful Strike|+2d6
    4th|+3|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny dodge|
    5th|+3|+1|+4|+1| Study Foe|+3d6
    6th|+4|+2|+5|+2|Trap sense +4, Hide in Plain Sight|
    7th|+5|+2|+5|+2| Improved Sneak Attack|+4d6
    8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+2|Improved uncanny dodge, Softfoot|
    9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+3|Trap sense +6, Deceive the Blind|+5d6
    10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+3|Special ability|
    11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+3|Reliable Sneak Attack|+6d6
    12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Trap sense +8, Vanish in Plain Sight|
    13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+4|Special ability|+7d6
    14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+4|Master Sneak Attacker|
    15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+5|Trap sense +10|+8d6
    16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Special ability|
    17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5| Hide in the Light|+9d6
    18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Trap Mastery|
    19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Special ability|+10d6
    20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Deadly Sneak Attack|[/table]

    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d8.

    Class Skills: The rogue’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int modifier) ×4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier.

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the rogue.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, light melee weapons, andthe hand crossbow, rapier, and shortbow, . Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

    Sneak Attack
    If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target, she gains a bonus to attack and damage. She is treated as having a base attack bonus equal to her rogue level, and deals +1d6 damage. This damage increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Prestige classes that advance Sneak Attack count as rogue levels when determining her improved base attack bonus. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

    Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

    A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. This ability generally comes into play against creatures who are at least two sizes larger than the rogue and tall. For example, a human rogue could sneak attack an ogre (large), or a remorhaz (huge, long), but not a titan (huge, tall). Some sneak attack variants, like hamstring, might still work (DM's digression). A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

    Spoiler
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    Not much change here-- the big sneak attack bits come later-- but the attack bonus helps reduce MAD and ensure that she can actually hit in battle.


    Trapfinding
    Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Stealthmaster (Ex)
    A rogue gains a bonus to hide and move silently checks equal to her rogue level.


    Spoiler
    Show
    A big bonus, I know, but it's necessary to keep up with spells, and it means that the rogue can be stealthy without having to blow lots of skill points on it.


    Evasion (Ex)
    At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Rogue Knack (Ex)
    When buying cross-class skills, a rogue only pays one skill point per level. In addition, when making any skill check, she may use ˝ her rogue level in place of the number of ranks she has in the skill. She cannot use this ability on a skill which cannot be used untrained if she has no ranks in that skill, and she cannot take 10 or take 20 when using her Rogue Knack.


    Spoiler
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    Shamelessly stolen from Able Learner and Bardic Knack, both seemed appropriate for a skillmonkey-- and it helps her compete with the Factotum


    Trap Sense (Ex)
    At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +2 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +2 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +4 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +6 when she reaches 9th level, to +8 when she reaches 12th level, and to +10 at 15th. Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.

    Spoiler
    Show
    I've never seen this ability do much in-game, but it makes sense to have. I upped the bonus because... well... it seemed pretty low for such a situational ability.


    Insightful Strike (Ex)
    At 3rd level, a rogue can use her Intelligence or Dexterity modifier (choose one; the choice cannot be changed once made) in the place of Strength for attack and damage rolls.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Reducing MAD always seems like a good thing to me.


    Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
    Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
    If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Study Foe (Ex)
    Starting at 5th level, a rogue who spends 3 rounds studying a type of foe normally immune to sneak attacks, such as plants or undead, gains the ability to sneak attack them for a number of minutes equal to her Intelligence modifier. She must take at least a move action during each of the three rounds to study the foe.


    Spoiler
    Show
    The first big change-- now you can sneak attack the undead! A little bit, at least. For now...


    Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
    At 6th level, a rogue can attempt to use the Hide skill even while being observed. To do so, she must be within her normal movement distance of a source of cover or concealment, and take a full-round action. If she succeeds, she successfully “vanishes” and moves to the hiding spot.


    Spoiler
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    Why don't rogues get this ability by default? I stole the mechanics from Mutants and Masterminds, but it seems like a very rogue-y thing to do. The full-round use time should help cut down on abuse.


    Improved Sneak Attack (Ex)
    At 7th level, the rogue gains one of two abilities:

    • The range at which she can make sneak attacks with ranged weapons increases to 60ft.
    • A foe struck by a melee sneak attack remains vulnerable to sneak attacks for one additional round. This ability can only be applied once per foe.


    Spoiler
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    The main goal is to make archer-rogues more viable. I had to give melee-types something to compensate, and an extra round of sneak attacking seemed OK-- most of the time, they'll be trying to flank regardless.


    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
    A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
    If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    Softfoot (Ex)
    At 8th level, a rogue doesn’t leave tracks, and isn’t slowed or hampered by difficult terrain. In general, she doesn’t leave physical signs of her passing unless she chooses to do so. In addition, she doesn't take penalties to Move Silently checks to pass through noisy terrain.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Partially flavor, and partially useful. Sure, she should be nailing those Move Silently DCs anyway, but it never hurts to be sure.


    Deceive the Blind (Ex)
    At 9th level, a rogue can hide from creatures with blindsense or blindsight.


    Spoiler
    Show
    HERE we fix one of the big problems with sneaky characters-- monsters immune to sneaking.


    Special Abilities
    On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.
    • Crippling Strike (Ex)- A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 1 point of Strength damage per die of sneak attack damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability. The rogue may only make one Crippling Strike per turn, even if she hits with multiple attacks, each dealing sneak attack damage.
    • Defensive Roll (Ex)- The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.
    • Improved Evasion (Ex)- This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
    • Opportunist (Ex)- Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
    • Skill Mastery- The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.
    • Slippery Mind (Ex)- This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
    • Feat- A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.


    Spoiler
    Show
    No real changes here, apart from making Crippling Strike a little more useful.


    Reliable Sneak Attack (Ex)
    At 11th level, a rogue can sneak attack any creature, even one who would normally be immune to sneak attacks, without having to spend time studying them.


    Spoiler
    Show
    BOOM! No more sneak attack immunities! Thank you. Thank you.


    Vanish in Plain Sight (Ex)
    At 12th level, a rogue can use his Hide in Plain Sight ability as a move action.


    Master Sneak Attack (Ex)
    At 14th level, the ability that a rogue gained from Improved Sneak Attack improves again.
    • She can sneak attack any foe within range of her weapon.
    • A foe struck by a melee sneak attack remains vulnerable to sneak attacks for one additional round. This ability can be applied twice per foe— in other words, the rogue can “chain” three sneak attacks together.


    Hide in the Light (Ex)
    At 17th level, a rogue’s mastery of stealth is almost supernatural. He can remain hidden for a number of rounds equal to his Intelligence modifier without needing cover. After the duration expires, he becomes visible. The countdown resets if he enters cover or concealment without being noticed.


    Spoiler
    Show
    Good? Absolutely, but still weak compared to, say, Greater Invisibility. Realistic? We're near level 20 here. Realism has nothing to do with anything anymore.


    Trap Master(Ex)
    At 18th level, a rogue's ability to avoid traps has reached legendary heights. The rogue is never treated as a valid target for attacks or spells made by traps, as if he had total cover from the trap and the trap did not have line of sight or line of effect to him.


    Spoiler
    Show
    The logical cumulation of Trap Sense.


    Deadly Sneak Attack (Ex)
    At 20th level, a rouge may make a special death attack. She must first make a normal sneak attack; the target takes full damage, and must then make
    a Fortitude save (DC 10 + number of sneak attack die+ the rogue's Intelligence modifier) or die. A creature can only be affected by this ability once per round, no matter how many attacks the rogue makes. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Intelligence modifier.


    Spoiler
    Show
    And a pretty little capstone to tie it all up.


    Spell Nerfs

    Invisibility- All spells in the Invisibility line add the following line of text:

    It's difficult to coordinate when you're used to seeing yourself move. Invisible characters take a penalty to attack rolls and Move Silently checks equal to (10- the level of the invisibility spell cast on them).

    Creatures with invisibility as a spell-like or supernatural ability do not suffer this drawback.

    Knock
    Transmutation
    Level: Sor/Wiz 2
    Components: V
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Touch
    Target: One door, box, or chest with an area of up to 10 sq. ft./level
    Duration: Instantaneous
    Saving Throw: None
    SR: No
    The Knock spell blows open locked doors and rips the tops off chests. The caster makes a special pseudo-strength check, rolling a d20 and adding the modifier from his primary casting ability and one-half his caster level, against the normal DC to force open a door or chest. For example, a 4th level wizard with an intelligence of 18 would add +6 to this check.

    Spoiler
    Show
    I always found it really strange that a spell CALLED Knock unlocked doors. My mental image was always a wizard just blowing the door off its hinges and now... well... it's not guaranteed to work, and there are plenty of times when it would be preferable to open the door stealthily. The range decrease eliminates another advantage the spell had over the skill.


    Find Traps
    Divination
    Level: Clr 2
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: 1 minute/level or until discharged; see below

    You grant yourself a temporary insight into the working of traps. The next time you make a Search check, you may attempt to locate traps as if you had the Trapfinding ability. You may not take ten on this check. After making a single Search check, the spell is discharged.

    Spoiler
    Show
    No, clerics, you DON'T get to take the rogue's main job away that easily. Sure, you can LOOK for traps, but you're going to blow a lot of spells and skill ranks doing so.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-12-01 at 09:58 PM.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    It's pretty good. I like it a lot.

    My one major complaint is that there's too much focus on the stealth aspect of the rogue. The rogue class can cover a wider variety of roguish characters. Since you didn't depower the class in any way, that's not really a serious problem, but it would be cool if there were ACFs to switch out some of the class features for characters who aren't so concerned with stealth.

    Also, Insightful Strike completely replacing strength in all cases is a bit overpowered and unjustified. Maybe just attack and damage?

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    might add mettle and improved mettle to the specials...
    Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!

    my home brew. you should PEACH them...
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    The rogue isn't really a bad class, in a vacuum, but it has two big problems:
    • Its main form of offense, sneak attack, is defeated by many different kinds of foes, and several easily-obtainable items.
    • There I'd have to disagree with you; the rogue's main form of offense is to win before initiative is rolled. When that can't be accomplished, he uses his secondary approach, which is sneak attack, but you can't really expect a secondary approach to be on par with another class's primary approach. (Also, he does have a tertiary approach, namely UMD.)

    • Its signature abilities, trapfinding, lockpicking, and sneaking, are all more effectively duplicated by second level spells.
  5. Now this is obviously more of an issue. Trapfinding isn't such an issue, because in order to use it as well as a rogue a cleric would need to have full CC ranks in Search and also have INT 4 points better than the rogue (not happening). Invisibility is somewhat more of an issue, and what you did certainly helps, but I prefer boosting See Invisibility to make it a valid counter (as that also helps keep invisibility from being overpowered in non-sneak contexts.) Knock is of course a real issue, and your fix is definitely a workable approach.
Last edited by Yitzi; 2011-11-28 at 06:40 PM.
My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
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More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Treblain-- I might try to work on some ACFs for swashbuckling, but... eh. There are plenty of good ways to do that (swordsage, warblade in light armor, theoretically the swashbuckler class). You're right about Insightful strike, though.

    bobthe6th, mettle doesn't really seem to fit, given the poor Fortitude save.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    There I'd have to disagree with you; the rogue's main form of offense is to win before initiative is rolled. When that can't be accomplished, he uses his secondary approach, which is sneak attack, but you can't really expect a secondary approach to be on par with another class's primary approach. (Also, he does have a tertiary approach, namely UMD.)
    I'm afraid that I don't how the rogue has ever had the ability to win before initiative is rolled. Do you mean diplomacy tricks? Setting up ambushes? Sudden-death sneak attacks? I can't really address that criticism, except to say that the ability should be intact, whatever it is, since I didn't take anything away.

    UMD as a viable approach speaks more to the brokenness of spells than anything else. No class should have to rely on it to be effective.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    I like most of the upgrades.

    I have to wonder a bit about leaving in the restrictions on Sneak-attack damage though; I think its tough for such a defining class ability to exclude large groups of potential enemies.
    It seems like a sufficiently smart/powerful/intelligent rogue could figure out some way to hit even the undead and creatures with strange anatomy for extra damage. Do you know of any feats or other-class abilities that allow you to sneak-attack the undead and/or anthing else on the list?
    Or it seems like the kind of thing that could turned into a nice flavorful class ability with a little work. Maybe something like: every 5 levels the rogue chooses one category of targets on the sneak-attack-immune list; through careful study and practice the rogue has figured out how to hit these targets for extra damage.

    Also, you seem to want to define the rogue as THE trap-finding class. I've always been looking for the ways EXPAND a group's options for dealing with traps. I'm sure we've all heard stories about how a player wants to join a group or people are starting a new campaign, and the DM tells the last person to declare their character "Sorry, you can't play as a [insert class of choice], the group needs a rogue."
    I knew one DM who would remove the more damaging traps if no one in the groups had Trap-sense, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who will complain that caters to the players-can't-lose school of thought.
    What if the trap-finding/disarming spells had their normal effect, but added a different bonus when cast on anyone who already possesed Trap-sense as a class ability? That way it makes the group less dependent on the Rogue sinking tons of points into one skill no one else cares about, while at the same time allowing the Rogue to be better at that job when/if needed.


    Edit: I'm working on a D&D 3.5 magic fix, and I think I might just steal some of your other spell-rewrites (like Knock) wholesale. I'm solidly in the group of people that think magic needs to be cranked down a few notches.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2011-11-28 at 10:12 PM.
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    Magic Fix: spell rewrites paused; rules under revision


    Non-core stuff I want to take a crack at rewriting: Healer, Warlock, Ninja, Samurai, Artificer, Soulborn Incarnum, psionics, bloodlines, and the item-crafting system

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I have to wonder a bit about leaving in the restrictions on Sneak-attack damage though; I think its tough for such a defining class ability to exclude large groups of potential enemies.
    On the other hand, the limits make a certain amount of sense. Most campaigns don't run across the problem foes that often; if so, that's why I have abilities like Study Foe thrown in.

    What if the trap-finding/disarming spells had their normal effect, but added a different bonus when cast on anyone who already possesed Trap-sense as a class ability? That way it makes the group less dependent on the Rogue sinking tons of points into one skill no one else cares about, while at the same time allowing the Rogue to be better at that job when/if needed.
    I personally fall under the cater-to-the-players school-- after all, the game is about making things fun for everyone. If there's no trapfinder in the party, then a good DM isn't going to run a lot of trap-heavy adventures. (I also rarely run traps at all, but that's just a personal thing). If no-one in the party is playing a rogue-type, then the spell nerfs aren't necessary.

    Edit: I'm working on a D&D 3.5 magic fix, and I think I might just steal some of your other spell-rewrites (like Knock) wholesale. I'm solidly in the group of people that think magic needs to be cranked down a few notches.
    Feel free. I'm quite complimented.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I'm afraid that I don't how the rogue has ever had the ability to win before initiative is rolled. Do you mean diplomacy tricks? Setting up ambushes? Sudden-death sneak attacks?
    Diplomacy tricks, bluff tricks (this actually covers a lot, depending on whether you bluff your enemy or a third party), general defamation and manipulation tactics, etc.

    I can't really address that criticism, except to say that the ability should be intact, whatever it is, since I didn't take anything away.
    Indeed; I wasn't saying you weakened it, just that sneak attack doesn't have to be so powerful since the rogue is not really a combat class.

    UMD as a viable approach speaks more to the brokenness of spells than anything else.
    Depends on what you mean by "viable". A rogue with UMD can do a solid 1d6 damage per round at range (or more at high levels) with a wand of MM, but that's not exactly broken; it's just a good backup because it's so hard to avoid completely.

    No class should have to rely on it to be effective.
    Agreed. (Of course, that doesn't mean a class has to be self-sufficient, even with it.)
    My general 3.5 balance fix.
    My psionics remix.
    My common-sense houserules.
    More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

    Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

    Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
    Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Diplomacy tricks, bluff tricks (this actually covers a lot, depending on whether you bluff your enemy or a third party), general defamation and manipulation tactics, etc.
    ...
    Indeed; I wasn't saying you weakened it, just that sneak attack doesn't have to be so powerful since the rogue is not really a combat class.
    That's all well and good, but not everyone wants to play a social rogue, there's not always the opportunity to do much talking, and, most importantly, d&d is a combat game at heart. When the chips are down, every class needs to be able to pull its weight in a fight.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    That's all well and good, but not everyone wants to play a social rogue, there's not always the opportunity to do much talking
    There are approaches other than social; you can be a trickster rogue who focuses on forgery/bluff rather than bluff/diplomacy, you can go for mobility and sneaking skills (and maybe Sleight of Hand) and steal the enemy's equipment, etc.

    But if all you want from the rogue is to be a sneak attacker, you'd be better off taking the sneak attack fighter variant from UA, possibly with a few ranger levels interspersed in there to keep your hide and move silently scores up (if you're going ranged.)

    and, most importantly, d&d is a combat game at heart.
    There I'd disagree with you. D&D can be a combat game if that's what the party wants (or if you've got a bad DM), but that sort of playstyle is one in which a rogue is least effective.

    The reason D&D looks a lot more like a combat game than it is is because combat is highly subject to mechanics (and so a lot of focus is given to the mechanics of combat), while noncombat is far too freeform for that and has to be adjudicated by the DM, so there's a lot less rules for it.
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    snip
    I certainly see where you're coming from, but I'm going to have to disagree. All classes should have out-of-combat ability (skills, utility spells, etc) and straight combat power (damage dealing, debuffs, party support, whatever). Skimping on one side or the other is poor class design. You say that the rogue is least efficient in a combat-heavy campaign? That's what I'm trying to fix. If your campaigns don't involve much fighting, you don't have to use it. But like I said before, all I really did was make the rogue's abilities more reliable.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    I certainly see where you're coming from, but I'm going to have to disagree. All classes should have out-of-combat ability (skills, utility spells, etc)
    Although it's quite low for the fighter, and pretty low for the barbarian and paladin.

    Skimping on one side or the other is poor class design.
    Why? Why must all classes be equally effective in every general category of encounter, rather than just equally effective overall?

    That's what I'm trying to fix. If your campaigns don't involve much fighting, you don't have to use it. But like I said before, all I really did was make the rogue's abilities more reliable.
    Ah, so you're not saying that rogues are flawed in general, you're trying to make them more effective in a high-combat campaign in particular. That makes more sense.

    But that raises the issue that the whole core concept of the rogue is one that isn't very effective when using "kick in the door" style tactics, so in a sense the problem is unfixable without changing the rogue to not really be a rogue. It might be better to simply create a new class to take the rogue's place in such campaigns; probably decrease his skill points a bit, remove many of the less combat-relevant skills from his skill list (just keep a few iconic ones like search, disable device, and open lock), and give him full BAB, fast movement, and the sneak abilities you mentioned.
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Yitzi-- and I say this with all due respect-- I don't really want to argue the point with you. I understand where you're coming from, and I very much doubt that I'll change your mind, or that you'll change mine. With that said, I'd much prefer not to sidetrack the thread anymore with an argument about design philosophy. If you want to start another thread on the subject, I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but the main topic here is "is my homebrew overpowered?" (goal: tier 3) and "does it do what it sets out to do?"

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Trap Immunity is a bit of a strange ability. To say the rogue is "immune to traps" would imply that the rogue received magic immunity, as a golem, to the effects of magical traps. Whereas you simply have it as the rogue having an automatic save and all attacks miss.

    Let me give you an example of where this wouldn't work. One time, I was playing a beguiler and we were doing a dungeon crawl. We tripped a trap, and that trap cast the black tentacles spell on the area. This spell allowed no saving throw, but the tentacles wouldn't miss on their attacks against your rogue, because the tentacles themselves are making the attack roll, the trap itself has nothing to do with that.

    More to the point, however, what about a trap that is loaded with a spell that does not require an attack roll, but deals a partial effect on a successful saving throw? Such as a trap of mass inflict critical wounds? The rogue is not immune to the trap's effect simply because he made his saving throw.
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Trap Immunity is a bit of a strange ability. To say the rogue is "immune to traps" would imply that the rogue received magic immunity, as a golem, to the effects of magical traps. Whereas you simply have it as the rogue having an automatic save and all attacks miss.

    Let me give you an example of where this wouldn't work. One time, I was playing a beguiler and we were doing a dungeon crawl. We tripped a trap, and that trap cast the black tentacles spell on the area. This spell allowed no saving throw, but the tentacles wouldn't miss on their attacks against your rogue, because the tentacles themselves are making the attack roll, the trap itself has nothing to do with that.

    More to the point, however, what about a trap that is loaded with a spell that does not require an attack roll, but deals a partial effect on a successful saving throw? Such as a trap of mass inflict critical wounds? The rogue is not immune to the trap's effect simply because he made his saving throw.
    Hmm. How would you suggest I re-word it? The idea is that anything that he'll never be hit by a spiked needle shooting out of the trap, never be surprised when he steps in a pit trap... basically, Trap Sense +infinity. Being immune to all spells cast by traps is kind of silly, I admit.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Hmm. How would you suggest I re-word it? The idea is that anything that he'll never be hit by a spiked needle shooting out of the trap, never be surprised when he steps in a pit trap... basically, Trap Sense +infinity. Being immune to all spells cast by traps is kind of silly, I admit.
    How about "The rogue is never treated as a valid target for attacks or spells made by traps, as if he had total cover from the trap and the trap did not have line of sight or line of effect to him"
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    I'd say that the only thing that might make this overpowered for tier 3 play is the easy HiPS together with a very good bonus to sneaking. Still, the inability to stay hidden indefinitely without cover or concealment probably keeps it in tier 3.

    It's still a very high tier 3, though. I'd say you probably should cut down on the Stealthmaster ability, maybe cap the bonus at +10 (which is still quite good). It won't keep up with invisibility, but invisibility in the absence of the sort of counter that doesn't exist for Hide isn't really balanced for tier 3. (Even the ranger is pushing tier 2 equivalence* once he gets HiPS, and he doesn't have a bonus to hide.)

    *Since tier 2 is defined by offensive power, he's not actually tier 2, but is an out-of-context problem for most enemies in the same way that tier 2 is.
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Deadly Sneak Attack should have a DC of 10+Number of Sneak Attack Dice+Int. That way, if the rogue is reducing her Sneak Attack dice for Ambush feats or other methods, the chance of death is weakened accordingly, and also, if the rogue prestiges into a class that grants extra Sneak Attack dice, the DC will continue to increase.

    The chance of death doesn't come from the rogue itself, it comes from Sneak Attack dice. It makes sense that if your Sneak Attack is stronger or weaker than a 20th level rogue's, it should have a different DC.

    Also, since this ability has daily uses, you need to clarify whether the effect is automatic on the first Sneak Attack per round, or whether the rogue must declare she is using a daily use of Deadly Sneak Attack (and if she misses, the use is wasted)
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Alright, I'm cutting the Hide bonus down to class level, which is significantly less silly.

    NeoSerahpi, good catch, and great suggestion. Fixing that now. Also fixing the wording on Trap Immunity.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-11-30 at 11:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Hide in the Light- Needs some clarification here. Do you mean Intelligence modifier rounds per day, or that many rounds, then you become visible again, and then what's the cooldown?
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Thanks again-- clarification added.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    I don't like the Invisibility penalties. They're way too steep, and don't apply to attack rolls, which require just as much--if not more--visual coordination than the skills. In addition, most of those skills aren't dependent on you watching yourself... you don't take a penalty to them when you're in total darkness, and a lot of people are coordinated enough to know where their limbs are regardless of whether or not they can see them. Usually, it's when you can't feel your limbs that you would take such penalties.
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    eh, infinite hide ranks in a spell... think it should have a serious draw back... then again I am for a very scaled back magic system...
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Just wondering, if you have a +5 intelligence modifier do you not need any study to pierce a foes resistance to sneak attack? The BAB increase REALLY help.

    About the invisibilty nerf, since when does a caster even need those skills?
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    (I can't bielieve I am about to say this...)
    I would scale back the Crippling Strike Ability. Let's take a level 10 rogue, when he gets it. Now he sneak attacks somebody. And lets say he hits. That's 5 points of ability damage, plus he's pretty likely to hit on the second iterative (another 5 points of damage). Put that together with something that lets you attack more times a round such as two weapon fighting(always a favorite with precision damage classes) and you have 20 points of strength damage. Which is a lot.
    If I misunderstood how the ability worked, please do correct me, because otherwise I like the fix a lot.

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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    eh, infinite hide ranks in a spell...
    It isn't. There's plenty of ways to find the location of an invisible creature... even though you may have a hard time using Spot to realize something's there, the Listen check is usually fairly easy, and several special senses (scent, see invisibility, etc.) counter it at least partially.
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    And of course let's not forget Invisibility Purge and See Invisibility. (Of course, the former is short-range and the latter is personal-only, which is why invisibility is still overpowered, but they help.)
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    I like it a lot so far. The feel for me is vaguely tier 3, which is nice. One note: the proficiency section got messed up when you edited it at some point.

    I do wonder why the hit die is upped to d8; I know this is meant to put the rogue in a more combat-able position, but with so much focus on sneaking and being unnoticed, why increase the health? Not a huge deal, but still leaves me curious.

    Also, why does the class need the permanent, constant hide and move silently bonus? You say it's to conserve skill points, but any rogue worth his salt will still invest in the skills at least a moderate amount. Even in the face of spells, it seems like a bit much. There's also nothing stopping a rogue from maxing skill points, getting their level as a bonus, AND getting a spell to pump it up more. Don't get me wrong, I do like the feel of the rogue getting a bonus to sneak skills right off the bat, it just seems like a lot.
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    Default Re: Now, I am truely ninja-- a rogue fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    I don't like the Invisibility penalties. They're way too steep, and don't apply to attack rolls, which require just as much--if not more--visual coordination than the skills. In addition, most of those skills aren't dependent on you watching yourself... you don't take a penalty to them when you're in total darkness, and a lot of people are coordinated enough to know where their limbs are regardless of whether or not they can see them. Usually, it's when you can't feel your limbs that you would take such penalties.
    I basically grabbed a bunch of skills from the ACP penalty list, but I see your point. I'll make a few changes; If you have a more grateful way of nerfing invisibility, I'd love to hear it, but the nerf is every bit as important to making the rogue viable as the other class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    Just wondering, if you have a +5 intelligence modifier do you not need any study to pierce a foes resistance to sneak attack? The BAB increase REALLY help.
    ...yeah. Hmm, maybe I'll just set it to a static 3 rounds. Short enough to potentially come into play in combat, but long enough not to make Reliable Sneak Attack irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    (I can't bielieve I am about to say this...)
    I would scale back the Crippling Strike Ability. Let's take a level 10 rogue, when he gets it. Now he sneak attacks somebody. And lets say he hits. That's 5 points of ability damage, plus he's pretty likely to hit on the second iterative (another 5 points of damage). Put that together with something that lets you attack more times a round such as two weapon fighting(always a favorite with precision damage classes) and you have 20 points of strength damage. Which is a lot.
    If I misunderstood how the ability worked, please do correct me, because otherwise I like the fix a lot.
    That's... an excellent point. I'll limit it to a single iteration of sneak attacks per round.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2011-12-01 at 09:58 PM.

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