[3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

[DonQuixote]

Things I could do:

Give you some of the natural attack feats as bonus feats, making your natural weapons more attractive. I'm thinking Improved Natural Attack every four levels (for a different natural weapon each time), Multiattack at 7th level, and Improved Multiattack at 14th level. You'd still need to take Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike on your own, but--given that doing so would net you a full attack that consisted of eight attacks, six of which are made at your full attack bonus--I think that such things are acceptable.

Move the natural armor part of scales to 2nd level, so you start getting your armor bonus early. At the same time, change the natural armor bonus to 1/2 initiator level + Charisma modifier.

Either not allow you to take metabreath feats, or else let you use Charisma in place of Constitution to qualify for them. Restricting metabreath would make it slightly less dragon-y, but also prevent you from destroying the world by choosing to never breathe again. Charisma for metabreath feats could arguably make some sense, since you use your Charisma to determine the save DC of your breath weapon, whereas everything else uses Constitution.

[NineThePuma]

I like the feat idea, though I'd add that if you already have the feat (like with multiattack) you can instead grab any feat you qualify for.

I like that shift to Scales; it makes DHA a bit diptastic though.

Cha to Metabreath would be fine, I think. But I'm not a crazy optimizer, so... Yeah.

[DonQuixote]

The Mage-Knight is up. Meanwhile, I slowly lose my ability to come up with any names ever again.

Things that are going to be done in the next hour or so:

Update the Codex II pdf so that the counterspell ability of the Spellshape Paragon ACF is based off of your shaper level, rather than your class level. Edit: Done.

Actually apply some of those changes to the dragonheart adept. Edit: Also done.




Update: The spellshape champion looked so sad with so few formulae known and prepared, so I gave it more. I also changed its recovery mechanic so that you have to have hit an opponent with a melee attack in order to recover, meaning that you can't just take Spellshape Study and become an all-ranged character. Spellshape Paragon no longer gives you an additional formula at 3rd level, as it now maps perfectly to the number of formulae in a circle without that compensation. Updated PDFs to come.

1/11/12: Both PDFs updated.

[Re'ozul]

Thanks for the PM, wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

I'm not sure the increase in Formulas known/prepared for the Spallshape Champion was absolutely necessary. Though I'll have to think that over more once I have slept due to the addition of the revised recovery mechanic.

Said Mechanic is pretty interesting. It adds a bit of a gamble to the recovery.
If the Champion starts his turn with a full-attack and hits on the first he can choose to recover, if he misses he might as well continue the full attack.
The only thing I can see is this frustrating a lot of players on a bad-Luck streak since they not only won't be able to hit but also won't be able to recover Formulas. Especially as you only get one try per round to do so.
Since they aren't hitting anyway this isn't so bad for major formulas, though they will curse at their dwindling supply of minors.

Mage-Knight looks pretty good.
I like the switcheroo recovery mechanic, it encourages using both.
Mage-Knight's Guard seems weird at first but when I read onwards it seems you were going for the noble, borderline foppish Knight archetype.
Prestidigitation at-will is fun and practical (when short on cash, open cleaning business).
Forceful Blow says "Charisma instead of Strenght" in the fluff, but in the second part of the description its just a bonus.
Empowering Strike and Rebuke spell are useful, but balanced nicely to not be overpowereing. (The former due to 1/enc and the latter due to readied action).
Command Magic is interesti as its usefulness depends on you guessing correctly how harmful whatever was just thrown at you is.
Martial Mage: I think you need to specify that these don't stack with themselves.
Sense Magic: Does it work like identify? Good utility.
Arcane Sight: Very useful this one. At this point thats generally 4-6 uses. Honestly I'm not sure about this one. Its basically handing the player 4-6 3rd level spells. Probably okay though.

All the special strikes: I'd allow it for maneuvers too. While there aren't feats for those, the effect can apply the same. In the current form the advanatge is a bit onesided for a class that marries maneuvers with formulas.

Arcane Assault is good, but since it can still fail by just not hitting, I'd think it would be a better 19th level ability with 20th level being a modified Master of Strikes that also gives a second Assault.

----

I have rambled enough now. Its time to go to sleep. Especially as I am starting to catch myself staring blankly at the keyboard trying to remember how to spell words at least once per sentence.

[NineThePuma]

I respectfully suggest the Sublime Shaper rather than Mage Knight. Because it's a spell shaper who follows the sublime way.

[DonQuixote]

I respectfully suggest the Sublime Shaper rather than Mage Knight. Because it's a spell shaper who follows the sublime way.

Yes. Thank you forever. You have saved the sublime shaper from sharing the spellshape champion's fate of having a godawful name.

Thanks for the PM, wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

I'm not sure the increase in Formulas known/prepared for the Spallshape Champion was absolutely necessary. Though I'll have to think that over more once I have slept due to the addition of the revised recovery mechanic.

Said Mechanic is pretty interesting. It adds a bit of a gamble to the recovery.
If the Champion starts his turn with a full-attack and hits on the first he can choose to recover, if he misses he might as well continue the full attack.
The only thing I can see is this frustrating a lot of players on a bad-Luck streak since they not only won't be able to hit but also won't be able to recover Formulas. Especially as you only get one try per round to do so.
Since they aren't hitting anyway this isn't so bad for major formulas, though they will curse at their dwindling supply of minors.

Well, in terms of formulae known and prepared, I realized that the sublime shaper, if it split its maneuvers and formulae evenly, would still have the same number of formulae known and prepared as the spellshape champion...and then it would have maneuvers. I couldn't really reduce the numbers, though, because it would severely cripple the sublime shaper's gimmick. So, I decided to just bring the spellshape champion in line with all the other pure spellshapers.

In terms of the new recovery mechanic, it basically gets at what I tried before--the one that sucked and prevented you from recovering things from the previous two rounds. You can't recover a formula that you already shaped, so you can't just keep spamming things--and, since you have to have already made an attack, you can't recover something from last round at the beginning of your turn and then shape it again. The new recovery mechanic also addresses the concern of spellshape champions taking Spellshape Study and then living it up as ranged spellcasters in full plate.

As far as constantly missing goes, one hit is all it takes to recover every single one of your formulae. That includes attacks made as a part of shaping formulae. If you use up all of your formulae without hitting once...well, that's some improbably bad luck.

Mage-Knight looks pretty good.
I like the switcheroo recovery mechanic, it encourages using both.
Mage-Knight's Guard seems weird at first but when I read onwards it seems you were going for the noble, borderline foppish Knight archetype.
Prestidigitation at-will is fun and practical (when short on cash, open cleaning business).
Forceful Blow says "Charisma instead of Strenght" in the fluff, but in the second part of the description its just a bonus.
Empowering Strike and Rebuke spell are useful, but balanced nicely to not be overpowereing. (The former due to 1/enc and the latter due to readied action).
Command Magic is interesti as its usefulness depends on you guessing correctly how harmful whatever was just thrown at you is.
Martial Mage: I think you need to specify that these don't stack with themselves.
Sense Magic: Does it work like identify? Good utility.
Arcane Sight: Very useful this one. At this point thats generally 4-6 uses. Honestly I'm not sure about this one. Its basically handing the player 4-6 3rd level spells. Probably okay though.

All the special strikes: I'd allow it for maneuvers too. While there aren't feats for those, the effect can apply the same. In the current form the advanatge is a bit onesided for a class that marries maneuvers with formulas.

Arcane Assault is good, but since it can still fail by just not hitting, I'd think it would be a better 19th level ability with 20th level being a modified Master of Strikes that also gives a second Assault.

Addressed pretty much all of the concerns here. Chain Spellshape required some inventiveness for maneuver form, but all the others just use the mechanics of the related metashaping feat. The one thing that I did differently concerns Arcane Assault: Rather than making it the 19th level ability and giving you a second use, I just added some fun rules text: missing doesn't count as a use now.

In terms of Martial Mage, I'm not sure why you think I need to say that they don't stack. They wouldn't apply to the same things, anyway, and both require you to make an attack--preventing you from shaping a formula or initiating a maneuver until your next turn.

[Re'ozul]

I see your points, but feel the need to address several things.

Spellshape Champion (and sublime shaper) recovery Mechanic:

The Champion (if he regularly hits) can still spam minor formulae via a round of swift-standard-move so your attempt at no-spam is not absolute.

The Problem is that the sublime shaper CAN spam since he doesn't have a to-hit clause. all he needs is standard (major formula or strike ) followed by swift (boost or minor formula). The swift action automatically recovers the standard and next turn the first standard will recover the swift. That way you only have a 1 round delay for one of them and generally the sublime shaper will be able to spam stanadrd action specials while alternating swift action specials between rounds. This works every round as you didn't specify a limit on recoveries per round or any other clause.

This also allows the sublime shaper to be pure ranged if necessary if he focuses maneuvers on boosts.

I don't really think spamming is such a big problem that you need to find ways to disallow it. Furthermore, with the addition of the sublime shaper with the afforementioned recovery mechanic, there is no reason for someone to play a ranged-only Spellshape champion.

Martial Mage:

The bonus is untyped. While untyped bonuses stack, I forgot that bonuses from the same source (even if untyped) never stack. My worry was that with a full attack at level 18, if all attacks somehow hit, you would suddenly gain a +20 to all of those next round. I blame my sleepy brain.

Martial Mage & AC Bonus & Forceful Blows:

Forceful Blow basically makes the sublime shaper only dependant on Dexterity and Charisma. A Spellshape Champion Focusing on Spellheart weapons can do the same thing. The extra feat he has to pay (weapon finesse) will most likely be balance by the extra damage he does with them.

A two handed Spellshape champion though needs to concentrate on Strenght, Wisdom and Dexterity and is slightly worse off for it.

My big problem however is with Martial Mage and the AC bonus.
Mor precisely, considering increasing charisma bonuses, the shaper level increase from Martial Mage and AC bonus are generally only slightly weaker than the maximum bonus provided by Champions Resolve and Shaper's focus.
The Spellshape Champion has to get hurt quite a bit to get that kind of bonus, where as the sublime shaper just has it (AC) or can get it by hurting others instead of being hurt).
Furthermore the sublime shaper is also granted bonuses for attack and damage from Martial Mage, something the spallshape champion can only dream of.

[NineThePuma]

Yes. Thank you forever. You have saved the sublime shaper from sharing the spellshape champion's fate of having a godawful name.

I live to serve.

[DonQuixote]

I see your points, but feel the need to address several things.

Spellshape Champion (and sublime shaper) recovery Mechanic:

The Champion (if he regularly hits) can still spam minor formulae via a round of swift-standard-move so your attempt at no-spam is not absolute.

The Problem is that the sublime shaper CAN spam since he doesn't have a to-hit clause. all he needs is standard (major formula or strike ) followed by swift (boost or minor formula). The swift action automatically recovers the standard and next turn the first standard will recover the swift. That way you only have a 1 round delay for one of them and generally the sublime shaper will be able to spam stanadrd action specials while alternating swift action specials between rounds. This works every round as you didn't specify a limit on recoveries per round or any other clause.

This also allows the sublime shaper to be pure ranged if necessary if he focuses maneuvers on boosts.

I don't really think spamming is such a big problem that you need to find ways to disallow it. Furthermore, with the addition of the sublime shaper with the afforementioned recovery mechanic, there is no reason for someone to play a ranged-only Spellshape champion.

It's not, and that's why I haven't gone horribly out of my way. I've just implemented something so that a spellshape champion can't do the exact same thing every round. While the sublime shaper can, doing so prevents her from benefiting from martial mage.

I really want the recovery mechanics, when possible, to suit the classes. The savant makes Knowledge checks, the anchorite has an easier time recovering formulae from circles if she's projecting their auras, the spellsage gets to reprepare things, the impulse mage gets them randomly, and the elemental adept...well, that one's less flavorful, I'll admit.

I wanted some way to tie the spellshape champion's recovery to melee combat, and I think that I found one that isn't too horribly painful. I may change it later to whenever you make a melee attack, rather than necessarily hit with it, but I haven't decided yet--that would technically allow you to attack the ground in order to recover formulae.

Martial Mage & AC Bonus & Forceful Blows:

Forceful Blow basically makes the sublime shaper only dependant on Dexterity and Charisma. A Spellshape Champion Focusing on Spellheart weapons can do the same thing. The extra feat he has to pay (weapon finesse) will most likely be balance by the extra damage he does with them.

A two handed Spellshape champion though needs to concentrate on Strenght, Wisdom and Dexterity and is slightly worse off for it.

My big problem however is with Martial Mage and the AC bonus.
Mor precisely, considering increasing charisma bonuses, the shaper level increase from Martial Mage and AC bonus are generally only slightly weaker than the maximum bonus provided by Champions Resolve and Shaper's focus.
The Spellshape Champion has to get hurt quite a bit to get that kind of bonus, where as the sublime shaper just has it (AC) or can get it by hurting others instead of being hurt).
Furthermore the sublime shaper is also granted bonuses for attack and damage from Martial Mage, something the spallshape champion can only dream of.

I'll point out that the spellshape champion does have the advantage of being able to wear heavy armor and use shields. Last I checked, people in heavy armor don't (can't) really care about Dexterity, so the two-handed example really would just focus on Wisdom and Strength.

In terms of shaper level bonuses from Martial Mage versus Champion's Resolve, you're realistically only going to benefit from Martial Mage if you made a melee attack in the previous round--meaning that, for all intents and purposes, we can treat it as only being up half of the time. Champion's Resolve can theoretically be up every turn.

Moreover, as far as I can see, shaper level bonuses really only benefit you for the purposes of metashaping and spell resistance checks. Only a handful of formulae actually reference your shaper level at all.

[Re'ozul]

It's not, and that's why I haven't gone horribly out of my way. I've just implemented something so that a spellshape champion can't do the exact same thing every round. While the sublime shaper can, doing so prevents her from benefiting from martial mage.

I really want the recovery mechanics, when possible, to suit the classes. The savant makes Knowledge checks, the anchorite has an easier time recovering formulae from circles if she's projecting their auras, the spellsage gets to reprepare things, the impulse mage gets them randomly, and the elemental adept...well, that one's less flavorful, I'll admit.

I wanted some way to tie the spellshape champion's recovery to melee combat, and I think that I found one that isn't too horribly painful. I may change it later to whenever you make a melee attack, rather than necessarily hit with it, but I haven't decided yet--that would technically allow you to attack the ground in order to recover formulae.

Ooooh, for some reason I had overlooked the differentiation between attack forms in Martial Mage.

I guess my main problem with this recovery mechanic is that it absolutely dictates your entire round with no possible way to deviate.
You MUST take a standard action to attack first (Or the first attack of a fullround) and if that works you then can take a move action to recover.
This makes moving battles the absolute bane of the Champion.

I'll point out that the spellshape champion does have the advantage of being able to wear heavy armor and use shields. Last I checked, people in heavy armor don't (can't) really care about Dexterity, so the two-handed example really would just focus on Wisdom and Strength.

In terms of shaper level bonuses from Martial Mage versus Champion's Resolve, you're realistically only going to benefit from Martial Mage if you made a melee attack in the previous round--meaning that, for all intents and purposes, we can treat it as only being up half of the time. Champion's Resolve can theoretically be up every turn.

Moreover, as far as I can see, shaper level bonuses really only benefit you for the purposes of metashaping and spell resistance checks. Only a handful of formulae actually reference your shaper level at all.

Just because you can wear heavy armor does not mean you have to.
I personally am not that much a fan of it unless the total of armor-bonus and max-Dex outweighs the same number on lesser variants. There are enough spells (and in fact astral essence can grant a nice bit of armor) that can up AC better than armor.

On account of Shaper's Focus being active every round...
If its active at full potential every round the Champion will be dead fast.

Okay, here is something I haven't quite figured out yet.
From the spellheart weapon description and its interaction with Spellshape champion it seems that manifesting a weapon results in only the spellshape attack being relevant for damage (plus anything that affects those).
Other factors such as Strenght bonus, power attack, weapon enhancement all would not factor in. So concentrating on Strenght would be completely useless for a TWF or one-handed+shield champion except the first few levels.
Only a two handed Champion really can get a use out of strenght and he can't use shields.

Also, spellshape attacks are based on shaper level, so you'd get a one die boost to them as well.

[DonQuixote]

Ooooh, for some reason I had overlooked the differentiation between attack forms in Martial Mage.

I guess my main problem with this recovery mechanic is that it absolutely dictates your entire round with no possible way to deviate.
You MUST take a standard action to attack first (Or the first attack of a fullround) and if that works you then can take a move action to recover.
This makes moving battles the absolute bane of the Champion.

Only if you're missing frequently. If you have a decent chance of hitting, you can just fight normally until you run out of formulae. Nobody says that you have to recover everything every round just because you can.

Edit: Also, I just changed the sublime shaper slightly. You can only recover one ability per round from shaping formulae or initiating maneuvers. A full attack lets you recover two abilities of your choice.

Just because you can wear heavy armor does not mean you have to.
I personally am not that much a fan of it unless the total of armor-bonus and max-Dex outweighs the same number on lesser variants. There are enough spells (and in fact astral essence can grant a nice bit of armor) that can up AC better than armor.

The class is designed with the assumption that you will wearing armor. The sublime shaper gets an AC bonus because it can only wear light armor. If you play a spellshape champion and choose to only wear light armor, that is your build decision. The design intent, however, is for you to be more heavily armored.

Crusaders don't get an AC bonus at all, while swordsages do. I don't think anyone has raised Cain about that.

On account of Shaper's Focus being active every round...
If its active at full potential every round the Champion will be dead fast.

Yes, but almost no other base class gets a bonus to shaper level higher than +2, anyway. I might actually decide to drop the Martial Mage bonus by 1 across the board. And see my comments on the crusader, in terms of the AC bonus--the spellshape champion actually has a leg up on official classes in this case. Heavy armor plus a possible +12 untyped bonus to AC? Makes it pretty hard to get hit more than once.

Okay, here is something I haven't quite figured out yet.
From the spellheart weapon description and its interaction with Spellshape champion it seems that manifesting a weapon results in only the spellshape attack being relevant for damage (plus anything that affects those).
Other factors such as Strenght bonus, power attack, weapon enhancement all would not factor in. So concentrating on Strenght would be completely useless for a TWF or one-handed+shield champion except the first few levels.
Only a two handed Champion really can get a use out of strenght and he can't use shields.

Also, spellshape attacks are based on shaper level, so you'd get a one die boost to them as well.

I tried to math it so that spellshape attacks stayed relatively close to weapons in terms of damage. 5d6 is supposed to map onto 2d6 + STR + Power Attack.

I don't know much about the math behind two-weapon fighting, but I WILL point out that you wouldn't benefit from it as a spellshape champion. Formulae mention "a single" attack with the relevant spellshape attack. Doesn't matter how many weapons you have.

You're right about what happens when you channel a spellshape attack through a Spellheart Weapon. The idea was to offer a stylistic choice for people who wanted to actually change the weapon into the attack.

I'm pretty sure Strength remains important, though, since you still need it to hit. Spellheart Weapons are still normal (non-touch) melee attacks.

[Amechra]

Question...

Would you mind if I made an Idiot Impulse Mage, just to see if I can?

[DonQuixote]

You can certainly try, but I'll point out this clause from "Advancing Spellshaping Progression" in Codex I:

However, at any level at which you gain both a new formula known and an additional formula prepared, you must apply both advancements to the same spellshaper class.

And this one from the Extra Prepared Formula feat:

However, you cannot take this feat if doing so would cause the number of formulae that you can prepare to exceed the number of formulae that you know.

If I recall how the idiot crusader works, that sort of slaps the idiot impulse mage in the face.

[Amechra]

It does.

Darn; the Idiot Crusader is just generally AWESOMELY fun to play.

Ah well, there still is Gestalt and early levels... now I just need to see if I can get the requisite Formulae known by level 3 to pull one off at that level...

This should be fun.

[Re'ozul]

Only if you're missing frequently. If you have a decent chance of hitting, you can just fight normally until you run out of formulae. Nobody says that you have to recover everything every round just because you can.

Edit: Also, I just changed the sublime shaper slightly. You can only recover one ability per round from shaping formulae or initiating maneuvers. A full attack lets you recover two abilities of your choice.

I know you don't have to. Objectively its not a bad thing within a fight, but theres just something about that irks me. Mostly the fact thats its a two-action conditional recharge.

It also makes it impossible to use some minor formulae outside of combat. My spellshape champion has glimmering moon as one of his circles. Outside of combat he could only use the invisibility formula (minor 2nd level) once. He would not be able to stay invisible by chaining it to sneak somehwere or anything like this.

These are of course minor facts, but I just can't get over the fact that the necessity for quick recovery has an interaction clause. It just feels weird that the champion can literally not recover formulae quickly on his own.

The class is designed with the assumption that you will wearing armor. The sublime shaper gets an AC bonus because it can only wear light armor. If you play a spellshape champion and choose to only wear light armor, that is your build decision. The design intent, however, is for you to be more heavily armored.

Crusaders don't get an AC bonus at all, while swordsages do. I don't think anyone has raised Cain about that.

True, but at the same time Swordsages are a 3/4th BAB class with a d8 hitdie and no equivalent to martial mage (except the bit of weapon focus).

Yes, but almost no other base class gets a bonus to shaper level higher than +2, anyway. I might actually decide to drop the Martial Mage bonus by 1 across the board. And see my comments on the crusader, in terms of the AC bonus--the spellshape champion actually has a leg up on official classes in this case. Heavy armor plus a possible +12 untyped bonus to AC? Makes it pretty hard to get hit more than once.

Actually I absolutely don't care about the increase in shaper level since, as you say, it only really has an impact in overcoming SR and as such only plays a role in later levels. Hitting as such is more important as a Champion still does normal weapon damage if he fails to penetrate SR.
On account of only getting hit once. In order for that to work you have to face an enemy that does 30+ damage in one hit but I see what you mean.

I just can never really get the appeal of heavy armor though. Its horribly expensive to make better via special materials. Its Dex modifier is so restrictive that unless your normal Dex is lower than 10 anything above a +2 item is wasted. Armor bonus is worthless against touch.
Aside from low level games where you won't face many touch-based enemies and the substantial armor bonus is good for something I never get the appeal.

I tried to math it so that spellshape attacks stayed relatively close to weapons in terms of damage. 5d6 is supposed to map onto 2d6 + STR + Power Attack.

I don't know much about the math behind two-weapon fighting, but I WILL point out that you wouldn't benefit from it as a spellshape champion. Formulae mention "a single" attack with the relevant spellshape attack. Doesn't matter how many weapons you have.

You're right about what happens when you channel a spellshape attack through a Spellheart Weapon. The idea was to offer a stylistic choice for people who wanted to actually change the weapon into the attack.

I'm pretty sure Strength remains important, though, since you still need it to hit. Spellheart Weapons are still normal (non-touch) melee attacks.

I have yet to see anyone power-attacking in my games. That is not to say that I consider your damage calculations bad. In fact, a two handed fighter without power attack can still easily keep up with spellshape damage.

Who says you need to use a formula when fully manifesting a spellheart weapon? It only mentions you need to channel through the weapon.
I found another bit of text that probably disallows TWF though:
"Once per round during your turn, you can channel a spellshape attack into a melee weapon as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
The "a" would imply "one" and as such rule out two weapon fighting i guess.

With weapon finesse you don't need strenght to hit.

[DonQuixote]

I know you don't have to. Objectively its not a bad thing within a fight, but theres just something about that irks me. Mostly the fact thats its a two-action conditional recharge.

It also makes it impossible to use some minor formulae outside of combat. My spellshape champion has glimmering moon as one of his circles. Outside of combat he could only use the invisibility formula (minor 2nd level) once. He would not be able to stay invisible by chaining it to sneak somehwere or anything like this.

These are of course minor facts, but I just can't get over the fact that the necessity for quick recovery has an interaction clause. It just feels weird that the champion can literally not recover formulae quickly on his own.

Hrm. You raise a point on the out-of-combat issue. I'll postulate on it a bit later in the evening, when I'm not supposed to be working.

Edit: Postulation has now occurred. It's now just a move action to recover all your formulae, with the exception of any that you shaped in the current round. If you have not shaped any formulae in the current round, you instead recover all of your expended formulae with the exception of any that you shaped in the previous round.

Basically, you can't shape the same thing two rounds in a row.

True, but at the same time Swordsages are a 3/4th BAB class with a d8 hitdie and no equivalent to martial mage (except the bit of weapon focus).

Fair enough. I'll knock the sublime shaper down to 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice. Kind of makes more sense that way, anyway.

Actually I absolutely don't care about the increase in shaper level since, as you say, it only really has an impact in overcoming SR and as such only plays a role in later levels. Hitting as such is more important as a Champion still does normal weapon damage if he fails to penetrate SR.
On account of only getting hit once. In order for that to work you have to face an enemy that does 30+ damage in one hit but I see what you mean.

I just can never really get the appeal of heavy armor though. Its horribly expensive to make better via special materials. Its Dex modifier is so restrictive that unless your normal Dex is lower than 10 anything above a +2 item is wasted. Armor bonus is worthless against touch.
Aside from low level games where you won't face many touch-based enemies and the substantial armor bonus is good for something I never get the appeal.

Again, though, I have--every step of the way--intended for the spellshape champion to end up wearing heavy armor. Originally, you had to scale up to it...which I ended up thinking was stupid, so I changed it.

I have yet to see anyone power-attacking in my games. That is not to say that I consider your damage calculations bad. In fact, a two handed fighter without power attack can still easily keep up with spellshape damage.

Who says you need to use a formula when fully manifesting a spellheart weapon? It only mentions you need to channel through the weapon.
I found another bit of text that probably disallows TWF though:
"Once per round during your turn, you can channel a spellshape attack into a melee weapon as a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity."
The "a" would imply "one" and as such rule out two weapon fighting i guess.

I mean, the spellshape champion was never intended for skirmishing or flashy tactics. It was always supposed to be the warrior, tank-y type. I had pretty much always envisioned it wearing heavy armor and carrying a shield, with a miscellaneous weapon in the other hand.

With weapon finesse you don't need strenght to hit.

Right, but, again, my vision of the class has always been of it being in heavy armor. You generally don't put much into Dexterity if you're wearing heavy armor, so you don't tend to pick up Weapon Finesse.


I'm not trying to say that you can't play a lightly armored, Dexterity-based spellshape champion. It's just that my vision for the class is...well...somewhat different.

[Re'ozul]

That change to the recovery mechanic makes it perfectly fine in my eyes.

Since the other stuff is basically just a matter of your concept based design decisions versus my personal opinions on sensibility its useless to debate over those.

I'll most likely look at circles next. I can already say that I consider Glimmering Moon, Brilliant Dawn and Natural Balance a bit stronger than the others.
Astral Essence and Eternal Moment though are also very interesting.

[NineThePuma]

I just wanna say that I'm going through and adapting The Codices to my campaign setting, and they're having to get split into MtG colors. So far, it looks pretty cool. Some of the colors ended up with "too many" circles, so I shuffled them off to somewhere else.

Black: Devouring Shadow, Deteriorating Corrosion
Blue: Roaring Tide, Eternal Moment, Glimmering Moon
Green: Astral Essence, Nature's Balance
Red: Searing Flame, Shocking Current, Crushing Stone,
White: Brilliant Dawn, Blustering Gale,

Which leaves Perfect Freeze and Unseen Impetuous without a slot, though I might go with PF on Black and Unseen Impetus on White.

May I ask for your input?

[DonQuixote]

I think that some cards imply where Perfect Freeze would be.

And Unseen Impetus could be argued for White. It doesn't really make much sense anywhere else, so sure.

I think that the only one of your assignments that I wouldn't be too sure on is Glimmering Moon as blue. Madness has its place. Though, to be fair, it can sometimes be ambiguous.

[NineThePuma]

Yeah, Perfect Freeze as Blue is something I saw, but didn't want to overload Blue with.

However, that's a good point on the madness.

Another tough one is Blustering Gale, because Air is typically Blue in nature; I gave it to White because white was seriously lacking.

[DonQuixote]

The Flamespeaker is up because nobody is allowed to doubt what my favorite element is. (No, it is not water.)

[Ralasha]

Codex I file is missing. Just thought I would bring that to your attention.

[radmelon]

Are you planning to make base classes devoted to other circles?

[DonQuixote]

Codex I file is missing. Just thought I would bring that to your attention.

This right here is why I shouldn't try to update links when I'm tired. What actually happened was that, when I pasted the new url into the tag, I accidentally included some of the characters from the old link.

Are you planning to make base classes devoted to other circles?

Honestly, I have no idea. The problem is that if I go down that path far enough, I'd have to write fourteen base classes. The flamespeaker was really a return to the beginning of the system--and, if I'm quite honest, a bit of a present to myself.

We'll see, but I wouldn't necessarily hold your breath. If it does happen, it will be after I attempt the remaining stuff on my to-do list, which includes:

1. Screeching Roc - A sound-based circle and an unapologetic pun.
2. Elemental Adept Options - Alternative secondary elemental circles, paraelemental adepts, and feats desgined for elemental companions.
3. Fleeting Image - An illusion-based circle.
4. One or more prestige classes based on combining Brilliant Dawn and Devouring Shadow.

Bear in mind, as I've said before, that I'm going to be attempting these things and there is no guarantee of success. I include this disclaimer primarily for the purpose of discussing the new circles--the other two things are more or less certain, though they might be tweaked.

[Ralasha]

How about a Universal Caster? More limited, but more versatile.

[radmelon]

Frankly, I'd rather see the stuff on the list already before the focused base classes. They seem much more interesting. I was asking merely out of curiosity.

[Re'ozul]

Ohhhh, new class:

General Feel: A monk and a barbarian one day found a baby Azer and raised him.
The feel is fun. It takes two of the lesser classes, strips away some abilities leaving a balanced rest, and forges it in fire.

Blaze: Well, its firey rage...

Burn: Look at me glow. The extra die of damage is good considering its just fire (until later). Burning people are also fun. But: Does the "people who attack you are damaged" part to just the 1d6 from Burn or full spallshape damage?

Flame's Blessing: Monk AC bonus, good.

Searing touch: So its an iterative touch attack? Actually pretty nice.

Secret of flame: I guess one of the first things people will choose are circles that usually deal half elemental half untyped and get the minor fomula that allows to do full untyped. Thats the only actualy exploit I can see and its a very minor one. I like the image it creates in my head:
"Why did you choose to learn this? I can do it already."
"You use brute bludgeoning force, I use fire."
"So?"
"EVERYTHING IS BETTER WITH FIRE!"

Burning Grace: I don't quite get the logic of the enemy being hrut when you fail a saving throw. Wouldn't it make more sense if you made the save?

Control Fire: Awesome.

Elemental Command: Why water subtype? Wouldn't cold subtype be more logical?

Burning Glare: Maybe a maximum Range? Otherwise I can see a lot of sniping shenanigans happening.

Devoted Pyromancer: New Battle strategy. Ignite torch, throw into middle of battle, start control flame and increase fire as much as possible. Very good this one. Can be very fun.

Shape of flame: While very well thought out, I can't really see the big use.

Flamewalker: When you have to ge somewhere fast. I feel reminded of the Floo-Network in Harry Potter.

Lesser Ascension: Does your immunity overcoming ability also overcome your own?

Searing Aura: Ouch.

Flaming Brilliance: What about things that are hurt by daylight?

Veins of Fire: Doesn't that hurt? I love elemental based healing. Volcanoes are now this characters favourite battleground.

Flamebreak: Nothing to say about this. Its well balanced and is a great mook-killer.

Master Pyromancer: More Dakka.

Undying Flame: Phylactery free, conditional immortality? Very nice. The "must be near open flame" bit is probably not necessary since even a torch can work.

Greater Ascension: Personally I would associate cold with fatigue and exhaustion and fire with daze and stun (or fright and panic due to "OH **** I'M ON FIRE").

Incinerating Blaze: Can't touch this ... without burning yourself.

Overall a very nice thematic build. This guy would be a monster in close combat though sadly won't work too well with other melee people unless they keep their distance.

[DonQuixote]

How about a Universal Caster? More limited, but more versatile.

What exactly do you mean by a Universal Caster, in this case? Someone who has access to all the circles? You'd still be limited by your formulae known and the prerequisites, meaning that you'd effectively have to choose circles like a spellsage would.

Not saying that it's not an interesting idea, just that I need a little more of an idea of what you're suggesting.

Ohhhh, new class:

[Lots of stuff about the flamespeaker]

Burn just deals the burn damage to creatures hitting you, not your searing touch damage as well.

The idea behind Burning Grace is that your connection to fire is so powerful that even attacking you with magic is dangerous. I might change it after some thought.

Burning Glare now has a 60-foot range.

Elemental Command now lets you turn creatures with the cold or water subtypes.

The Devoted/Master Pyromancer abilities now note that they don't cause you to overcome your own resistance or immunity.

Shape of Flame is flavorful and situational. Need to listen in on a conversation? Get there ahead of time and hide in the fireplace. Need to get through a wall with a small hole in it? Turn into fire and squeeze through. Just a fun thing to have.

You can now suppress Searing Aura if you need to hang out with melee buddies.

Flaming Brilliance isn't sunlight, it's just brighter than sunlight. If things are specifically harmed by the sun, it doesn't matter how bright your flashlight is.

[Ralasha]

Flaming Brilliance isn't sunlight, it's just brighter than sunlight. If things are specifically harmed by the sun, it doesn't matter how bright your flashlight is.

What if it's a UV flashlight?

Not just someone that can cast from all circles necessarily... more... someone that can cast anything... but not as often or as well.

[vasharanpaladin]

The Flamespeaker is up because nobody is allowed to doubt what my favorite element is. (No, it is not water.)

Dis class ain't burny enuff! You's muckin' about!