[3.5 Magic System] The Codices of Spellshaping

[The-Mage-King]

Guess what their favored class is.

Cloistered Cleric?

[DonQuixote]

Sublime Shaper!

Cloistered Cleric?

Okay, I walked right into that one.

I still need to figure out actual bonuses to give them. Their base stat modifiers are +2 Charisma, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom. Which means that the emotional outburst puts you at +4 Charisma, -4 Intelligence, -4 Wisdom. If you go without sleep, you really don't want to do that, since it would put you at a total -6 Intelligence, -6 Wisdom.

[DonQuixote]

Elemental Adept received some quality-of-life changes, most notably some clarifications regarding the restrictions it faces on formulae known. (Yeah, half of your formulae have to be from your elemental circles. Not half of your formulae known of each formula level.) Also, elemental travel is now at will.

New Codex I PDF, accordingly.

[Empedocles]

First of all: new fan, huge fan. I only recently began looking through the first Codex, and I love what I see. Honestly, it's a huge pity that WoTC never published this (I like pictures with my 3.5 material ).

I do have 1 very nitpicky thing about a basic spellshaping ability: the spellshape attacks. That is, that they don't scale well. At 1st level, being able to deal 1d6 points of fire damage with a fireburst as a ranged touch attack is pretty awesome. If you roll decently, you can kill a goblin in one hit, for example. At 17th level, dealing 5d6 points of damage with a ranged touch attack isn't even worth thinking about doing.

Other then that, I'd like to suggest some sort of infernally based spellshaper. Awesome material!

[radmelon]

Don't forget that most formulas, which you should be using with every spellshape attack under most circumstances, adds more damage to the attack. This extra damage helps bring it up to a better-scaled value.

[DonQuixote]

First of all: new fan, huge fan. I only recently began looking through the first Codex, and I love what I see. Honestly, it's a huge pity that WoTC never published this (I like pictures with my 3.5 material ).

My God, the number of times I've considered saving up money and commissioning artists....

Ludicrously expensive, though. Still tempting.

I do have 1 very nitpicky thing about a basic spellshaping ability: the spellshape attacks. That is, that they don't scale well. At 1st level, being able to deal 1d6 points of fire damage with a fireburst as a ranged touch attack is pretty awesome. If you roll decently, you can kill a goblin in one hit, for example. At 17th level, dealing 5d6 points of damage with a ranged touch attack isn't even worth thinking about doing.

As Radmelon pointed out, the spellshape attacks themselves aren't the core of your damage. With, say, Spellshape Focus and Greater Spellshape Focus, as well as an empowering lamen (Codex II weapon enhancement analogue), you can get up to a base 8d6 at 17th level. As an attack action, mind you, so you can full attack with it.

Other then that, I'd like to suggest some sort of infernally based spellshaper. Awesome material!

Hrm...originally, I was shying away from association with particular alignments, but--given the system flavor that I've been cooking up in my brain--it might not be that unreasonable for there to be a Faustian-pact spellshaping class. Hmmmmm.

[The-Mage-King]

My God, the number of times I've considered saving up money and commissioning artists....

Ludicrously expensive, though. Still tempting.

One word to think about.

Kickstarter.

That's all.

Hrm...originally, I was shying away from association with particular alignments, but--given the system flavor that I've been cooking up in my brain--it might not be that unreasonable for there to be a Faustian-pact spellshaping class. Hmmmmm.

Would that be base or PrC? Either way, if you do that, think you'll use a bit of Binder-like stuff?

[mrcarter11]

Vilpich: Just as a quick example of what radmelon pointed out. Using Searing Flame as an example against the other common blaster of d6's, warlock.

At level 17, warlock can pump out 8d6 per attack. Which is average to 28 points of damage. Now, he'd have access to Utterdark Blast as well though. Which is a fort save or 2 negative levels, instilling a -2 to most everything. However fort saves are also commonly the strongest save.

Now for the spellshape attack, at level 17, it's 5d6. Now at this level we'd have access to level 9 major formula, but we'll stick to level 8. You shape Consuming Flames into your attack, and now your at the same 8d6 that the warlock is. Comsuming flames also though targets a Reflex save or -4 to attacks and saving throws. And any time in the next three rounds that they miss an attack or fail a save, they take another 3d6 of damage.

Now, nearly ever Warlock takes Utterdark, so it's fair to include. The spellshaper example didn't use any actual class though, so class features could easily feed into the damage as well. Also the feat, Spellshape Focus seems like a feat ever shaper should take, at least in terms of blasting. And the Spellshape example doesn't use any minor formula.

In the end, the spellshape attack comes out ahead in effectiveness, and even in damage, assuming just a bare bones approach like I did.


Now, @DonQuixote
I was building a Sublime Shaper, and while I do like the class a lot, it's class features chain of each other, amazingly well perhaps to well?

Assuming the shaper picks an even mix of formula and maneuvers, then they open the encounter with a ranged formula attack, now once the enemy charges, or moves to attack, they are melee range. The Sublime Shaper then at level 8, get Martial Mage, Empower Maneuver, and Heighten Maneuver, that turn when the use a maneuver. If the enemy is still alive when it's their turn again, they 5' step backwards, and shape an attack and gain every benefit again..

Was this intended?

[DonQuixote]

I was building a Sublime Shaper, and while I do like the class a lot, it's class features chain of each other, amazingly well perhaps to well?

Assuming the shaper picks an even mix of formula and maneuvers, then they open the encounter with a ranged formula attack, now once the enemy charges, or moves to attack, they are melee range. The Sublime Shaper then at level 8, get Martial Mage, Empower Maneuver, and Heighten Maneuver, that turn when the use a maneuver. If the enemy is still alive when it's their turn again, they 5' step backwards, and shape an attack and gain every benefit again..

Was this intended?

Well, note that the Empower and Heighten can each only be used once per encounter. So, the only thing you're keeping is Martial Mage, which is primarily intended as incentive to keep alternating between maneuvers and formulae.

Might be worth shortening the range for their spellshape attacks, though, such that, unlike normal spellshapers, a Sublime Shaper's spellshape attacks have a range of only 15 feet.

Can't decide at the moment whether it makes any appreciable difference.

[Empedocles]

One word to think about.

Kickstarter.

That's all.




Would that be base or PrC? Either way, if you do that, think you'll use a bit of Binder-like stuff?

Just want to say...I think a kickstarter would be successful. I know I'd contribute, and the only reward I'd possibly want would be codices with art!

Hrm...originally, I was shying away from association with particular alignments, but--given the system flavor that I've been cooking up in my brain--it might not be that unreasonable for there to be a Faustian-pact spellshaping class. Hmmmmm.

Doesn't necessarily have to be completely alignment based. For example, the warlock isn't always evil, nor is the dread necromancer. A spellshaper like this wouldn't have to be a villain. Just an antihero.

[DonQuixote]

One word to think about.

Kickstarter.

That's all.

Just want to say...I think a kickstarter would be successful. I know I'd contribute, and the only reward I'd possibly want would be codices with art!

So, I haven't actually put any research into artists at the moment--which I'd need to do before I started up the fundraiser. That'd probably take me a good month or two, since I'm fairly picky. I also know very little about the commissioning process and whatnot, so I'd need to be looking into any legal aspects.

On top of that, each version of Codex I gets, at most, forty downloads. Over the two Codices, we have three races, six base classes, one set of alternative class features, two sets of feats, three racial substitution levels, fourteen circles, and twenty-two prestige classes. Even if we nix the feats, alternative class features, and feats, that's forty-five pieces of art. At that point, each person is paying for a complete piece of art, which--I imagine--runs at roughly fifty dollars. As popular as the codices may be, that's still a serious financial investment.

Finally, at the moment, I don't have a lot of time on my hands. We're nearing the end of the semester, and I'm looking for internships for the summer. Managing a fundraiser and being in contact with artists would be a lot to deal with, in terms of time and energy.

Man, if my uncle hadn't died this summer, I'd totally commission from him. He did the cover art for the Codices. They're actually portraits of my first D&D character ever. Codex I features his first draft, Codex II features the refinement, and I'm thinking of using the final version for the cover of the PDF that collects the online material.

Would that be base or PrC? Either way, if you do that, think you'll use a bit of Binder-like stuff?

Doesn't necessarily have to be completely alignment based. For example, the warlock isn't always evil, nor is the dread necromancer. A spellshaper like this wouldn't have to be a villain. Just an antihero.

Probably a base class, since I tend to prefer doing "source-of-power" classes as base, rather than prestige. Not sure if I'd use binder stuff--it really depends on what I decide.

In terms of alignment, it certainly wouldn't be evil-only. What I meant there was that I shied away from having things associated with SOURCES that were either good or evil. That's why there's no "good" or "evil" circle. Devouring Shadow toes the line, but a completely virtuous person can wield its powers without fear--it's all in how you do it.

Of course, I have no idea when this would happen, since I have basically no free time these days, and I have a bunch of other stuff that I want to write. Two races, their substitution levels, character options for three other base classes, some new prestige classes, some more monsters...it's a long list.

[DonQuixote]

New spellsage options. One of which may be a feat that can be taken by anyone with one level in a spellshaper class...because I wanted it on my non-spellsage characters. Still, thematically appropriate for the spellsage, so I see no problem with it.

Edit: Fixing something with the new spellsage options made me realize a problem with the Spellshape Paragon Codex II spellshape champion ACF. New PDF with the fix. (The counterspelling ability no longer caps at a +10 bonus.)


Edit Again: The cambian race has been added.

[DonQuixote]

Another new race. Living spellshapes, for all your magical ooze needs.

A lot of credit on this one goes to my roommate, who's been building an ooze race for her own homebrew system. The Primitive Vision and Amorphous Body abilities are pretty much entirely stolen from her ooze race.

[DonQuixote]

...well. Huh.

I finally got around to explaining what spellshaping actually is. Wasn't expecting to do that tonight.

[mrcarter11]

Is there any chance we'll ever see an ACF or perhaps a class itself that combines Spellshaping and TWF. I'd love to see a Spellshape Champion ACF that allows use between two blades or something similar, thoughts?

[DonQuixote]

The main problem with adding two-weapon fighting spellshaping is that, unless I just felt like laughing for a week straight, I would probably have to let it make an attack with each weapon when shaping a formula.

This gets into problems because of spellheart weapons and the spellstorm lamen property. As a standard action, you'd be able to make three attacks and shape a formula, and those three attacks would all be doing spellshape attack damage. At 20th level, with Spellshape Focus, Greater Spellshape Focus, an empowering lamen, and the Incinerating Blast minor formula, that lets you toss out 33d6+60 damage in addition to a formula. Remember, standard action.

[mrcarter11]

I had to a lesser degree considered what this would mean, damage wise. Hm, guessing that's a no then. Well, can't blame Me for asking.

[DonQuixote]

Well, I won't say that it will never happen--the last thing that I said would never happen was an illusion circle--but it doesn't look like something that's going to happen before the things on my to-do list:

• New anchorite options
• New savant options
• Prestige class based on combining Brilliant Dawn and Devouring Shadow
• Prestige class based on combining Brilliant Dawn and Setting Sun
• Spellshaping monsters:
  
  • Brilliant Archon
  • Darkened Watcher
  • Genie, Spellshaping
    
    • Dao of the Crushing Stone
    • Djinni of the Blustering Gale
    • Efreeti of the Searing Flame
    • Marid of the Roaring Tide
  • Living Formula
  • Screeching Roc
  • Spellsoul Golem
  • Spellshaping Undead Fey Thing
• Infernal spellshaping base class

[Epsilon Rose]

• New anchorite options
• New savant options
• ...
• Infernal spellshaping base class

Ooh, that looks like a fun thing.

That and maybe some spellsoul armor friendly acfs for things other than spellshape champion (always counting as wearing heavy armor is a bit a downer).

Also, for some reason, I feel like suggesting an option of some sort of option (acf, feat, base class, prc) that lets shapers channel through ranged weapons. It's probably not all that relevant most campaigns but it could be fun if you could get your hands on a really long range weapon or find yourself in a modern setting where sniper rifles and automatics are available.

[DonQuixote]

That and maybe some spellsoul armor friendly acfs for things other than spellshape champion (always counting as wearing heavy armor is a bit a downer).

This is indeed a possibility! I'm planning to do a racial sweep at some point--give stoichen the option to be descended from Paracelsus' elementals, let masked ones have specific types of masks, that sort of thing--and this one might well go in. Of course, spellsoul attunement means that a suit of spellsoul armor can take levels in any spellshaping class without worry, but it would still be nice to not lose out on your impulse mage class features.

Also, for some reason, I feel like suggesting an option of some sort of option (acf, feat, base class, prc) that lets shapers channel through ranged weapons. It's probably not all that relevant most campaigns but it could be fun if you could get your hands on a really long range weapon or find yourself in a modern setting where sniper rifles and automatics are available.

You know, about a month ago, I had absolutely no plans of every doing a ranged weapon spellshaper. I would have sort of snuck past this comment, hoping that nobody would notice.

Of course, since then, some friends have provided me with some inspiration.

Spoiler

Show

[Epsilon Rose]

This is indeed a possibility! I'm planning to do a racial sweep at some point--give stoichen the option to be descended from Paracelsus' elementals, let masked ones have specific types of masks, that sort of thing--and this one might well go in. Of course, spellsoul attunement means that a suit of spellsoul armor can take levels in any spellshaping class without worry, but it would still be nice to not lose out on your impulse mage class features.

I was actually thinking of the sublime sharper. As a martial class it's a perfect fit for a living armor (and I don't like the delayed damage mechanic of the champion [It didn't make sense to me with the crusader and it still doesn't, but that's my own failing]). Unfortunately, you lose out on the AC bonus and (far more importantly) forceful blows.

Also, RIP VAN WINKLE!

[DonQuixote]

I was actually thinking of the sublime sharper. As a martial class it's a perfect fit for a living armor (and I don't like the delayed damage mechanic of the champion [It didn't make sense to me with the crusader and it still doesn't, but that's my own failing]). Unfortunately, you lose out on the AC bonus and (far more importantly) forceful blows.

Whether or not the delayed damage pool makes sense to you depends entirely on how you conceive of hit points. If you see them simply as physical wounds, then, yeah, I can see that it would be difficult to swallow. On the other hand, if they're just physical wounds, I think that a high-level barbarian would consist almost entirely of holes before he fell unconscious. I tend to think of it as a combination of actual wounds and sheer ability to keep fighting. The delayed damage pool is a refusal to go down--ignoring the pain and continuing to fight in spite of it.

In terms of functionality, I'm thinking two feats--one to count as medium armor, and one to count as light armor. Similar to the warforged feats.

Also, RIP VAN WINKLE!

Yup! I have various ideas of how it's actually going to work, but they're all pretty preliminary at this point.

[Epsilon Rose]

Whether or not the delayed damage pool makes sense to you depends entirely on how you conceive of hit points. If you see them simply as physical wounds, then, yeah, I can see that it would be difficult to swallow. On the other hand, if they're just physical wounds, I think that a high-level barbarian would consist almost entirely of holes before he fell unconscious. I tend to think of it as a combination of actual wounds and sheer ability to keep fighting. The delayed damage pool is a refusal to go down--ignoring the pain and continuing to fight in spite of it.

It's not so much the justification that I have a problem with as the use. Taking damage so I have a 1 turn window to do something with some of it just seems strange to me but, like I said, that's more my own issue and I avoid the crusader for the same reasons.

In terms of functionality, I'm thinking two feats--one to count as medium armor, and one to count as light armor. Similar to the warforged feats.

I'm not all that familiar with warforged, so I don't know what bonuses they get or how there feats work, but that sounds like something of a raw deal for a spellsoul armor. It means they need to burn 2 of their feats just so they can use certain base classes (I don't think there are any other races [besides warforge] who need to do that) and and it could be problematic for characters who start at level 1. From the little I know it seems to me that spellsouls are both more ephemeral and more likely to vary in construction then warforged (what with them just being the "possessed" upper half of an armor and armor coming In a stupid number of varieties); if you're looking for a quick general fix I would suggest A) letting them choose what type of armor they're made out of and taking bonuses and penalties as appropriate (possibly letting them pay for alternate materials and constructions techniques), B) Expand attunement to cover all spellshaper class features or C) [if the're getting fewer bonuses then warforged] make them count as wearing the most beneficial type of armor for class features (after all, it is basically their skin and it makes sense that they'd know how to move in it). Personally, I favor A and B, but I don't really know how they'd effect overall balance. :/

[DonQuixote]

I'm not all that familiar with warforged, so I don't know what bonuses they get or how there feats work, but that sounds like something of a raw deal for a spellsoul armor. It means they need to burn 2 of their feats just so they can use certain base classes (I don't think there are any other races [besides warforge] who need to do that) and and it could be problematic for characters who start at level 1. From the little I know it seems to me that spellsouls are both more ephemeral and more likely to vary in construction then warforged (what with them just being the "possessed" upper half of an armor and armor coming In a stupid number of varieties); if you're looking for a quick general fix I would suggest A) letting them choose what type of armor they're made out of and taking bonuses and penalties as appropriate (possibly letting them pay for alternate materials and constructions techniques), B) Expand attunement to cover all spellshaper class features or C) [if the're getting fewer bonuses then warforged] make them count as wearing the most beneficial type of armor for class features (after all, it is basically their skin and it makes sense that they'd know how to move in it). Personally, I favor A and B, but I don't really know how they'd effect overall balance. :/

Oh, no, it wasn't going to be a two-feat chain. I meant two separate feats, which can only be taken at 1st level. One lets you count as light armor, one lets you count as medium armor. The question is going to be one of what material you are made of--certain metals are lighter than others.

To address your suggestions:

(A) gets shot down because suits of spellsoul armor are all made from full plate. They're actually less likely to vary in construction than warforged are, as an individual warforged can be made in different styles--just look at the various "warforged" monsters that exist. The only variance between suits of spellsoul armor is the style of the armor. Not the type, mind you, but the aesthetics.

(B) is far too nepotistic for me. The thing that you'll notice about the races is that none of them say "You can only take levels in spellshaping classes." Man, would I like to say that! It would make balance a hell of a lot easier. However, it would also be pretty darned silly. Spellsoul Attunement is there primarily because you're made of the stuff--using it shouldn't pose a problem for you. It doesn't extend to spells because they're more complex than formulae and spellshape attacks. The justification just doesn't logically extend to everything a spellshaper can ever do--and, if it did, there's no reason that it wouldn't extend to everything anyone can ever do.

(C) runs into the problem suits of spellsoul armor don't get fewer bonuses than warforged do. Warforged have only a +2 armor bonus, which imposes a 5% spell failure chance and does not cause them to be treated as though they were wearing armor for the purpose of class features. They also have a 25% resistance to critical hits and a slam attack.

By contrast, a suit of spellsoul armor gets a +8 armor bonus, though it is treated as wearing heavy armor. It has only a 15-foot movement speed, but it also ignores all difficult terrain ever and cannot be tripped. At 10th level, it also begins to air walk at will. Finally, it can meld magical equipment into its body, preventing such things from being removed through disarm checks or sundering. Letting them also treat themselves as though they were wearing the most beneficial type of armor would make them a mite bit too powerful for my tastes.


I'm going to stick with the feat option.

[vasharanpaladin]

...well. Huh.

I finally got around to explaining what spellshaping actually is. Wasn't expecting to do that tonight.

Minor quibble with their spellshape feature. Are they supposed to be able to be descended from, say, the lavamancer's volcanic blast?

[DonQuixote]

Tweaked the wording to specify "one of the basic spellshape attacks," rather than leaving it ambiguous.

So, no, you can't be a living volcanic blast.

[NineThePuma]

[vasharanpaladin]

Tweaked the wording to specify "one of the basic spellshape attacks," rather than leaving it ambiguous.

So, no, you can't be a living volcanic blast.

Just as I suspected would be the case.

[DonQuixote]

Don't look at me like that! I can't go around handing out prestige class features as racial features...!

[radmelon]

Yeah, that would be kinda over the top.