New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 101
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    I had an idea about a new Star Trek series.

    Timeline: Any time after TNG.

    Crew: Smattering of awesome people, just like any Star Trek series.

    Ship: Not an Enterprise. Actual science vessel. Minimal to zero armament.


    The Hook:
    The entire crew is holographic. Revealed to the main crew at the end of Season 1.
    Them transporting over to other ships or down to the surface? Nope, that's just them uploading to the computer to then be projected elsewhere. The computer programs in the memory of walking onto a transporter pad to continue the illusion of being real people.

    Most of the ship parts that we have seen such as engineering or the medical bay are all figments. Or rather, they are non-existant representations in order to continue the illusion that the holograms are real people, when in fact they are not.
    Engineering looks more automated. There are holograms who work in engineering who never interface with the rest of the crew. There are holograms who work in the cargo areas who never interface with the rest of the crew. There is an entire security team (all with different appearances and races) who never interface with the rest of the crew. All of whom think they are taking their orders or commands from real people.

    It can be subtley built up over the course of the first season. Just bizarre but easily un-noticed phenomena over several episodes.

    Season 2 opens with the main crew trying to figure out what to do.
    Do they tell the rest of the crew?
    Do they talk to starfleet, or pretend like everything is fine?
    Given that they are now aware of their actual existance, is their programming fine, or damaged in some way? Are their any failsafes to worry about?

    And of course, we increase the tension just a bit.
    One or more of the crew knew all along.
    One of the crew is a plant from Starfleet Command, but who's constantly sending data back. The crew is intercepting that data.
    One of the crew begins accessing the actual project files from Starfleet. The Automated Deep Space Science Research and Reconnasance Division. Thats right, this innocent science ship is the testing ground to an automated deep space spying and detection grid. With the inferance that there may be more ships or stations out there operating the same way. Gather more info about the project and major players from these sort of sources.
    In a later season, turns out the 'awakening' was in fact a series of pre-programmed events. All the subtle clues were there to test program integrity, as was eventually granting full awakening to the crew. It was also a test of the morality and values of the systems, to see if the systems would even make a moral choice of awakening the rest of the crew or not.
    Finally, we have the designers themselves. Some of crew are modelled on their creators, some modelled on other Starfleet officers and crew members. Some of the programs could in fact be compellations of certain accounts and personal histories, designed to see which morals and values and decision making and strategy would emerge from the pool of past knowledge.

    What the series avoids at all costs
    -Holodeck episodes. Duh.
    -Oh noes a space disease.
    -Hologram/AI rights. Sure, there is an undercurrent, but some kind of Hologram rebellion gets a bit... odd.
    -Data syndrome. Data was trying to discover what it means to be human, there many similar characters in Trek over the years like Spock, Odo, The Doctor. This show would have to either completely avoid this, make light of it, or completely explore it better than any other series has done, or some balance there of.
    -Transporter malfunctions. Who cares if you couldn't re-upload to the ship, there's always a backup copy.
    -Red shirts. Fully expendable faceless mooks are not needed. Anyone who is put at risk is a fully thinking, feeling Artificial Intelligence. That needs to be respected, not ignored.
    -Techno-jargon wand-waving answers to problems.
    -Mundane solutions to problems. Yeah sure we could fly through that nebula, but that brings some important risks when electrical activity could shut down the whole ship and potentially destroy the storage media of the crew, AKA kill them all.
    -Poorly understood computer quirks. The Doctor got sick one day, or his imagination got them into trouble, etc. Avoid this. Yes, they're holograms, but they're "people" too.
    -Tools. Things like tricorders would have to function better than previous incarnations. One person scanning means that potentially the whole crew can view the data in real time. Tools would also have to be physically beamed down, whereas the Holograms are being projected by the ship. Also, this implies that the crew might be unarmed most of the time, and therefore diplomacy becomes even more important. Set phasers to stun? That might be a thing of the past.
    -The computer talking. Why would it after the big reveal? The crew can interface with the systems directly so there would be no need. For that matter, why read screens at all? Well, thats either again the computer adding in memories for the illusion of being real people, or something that maybe the crew makes a conscious choice to continue using. In reality maybe there is no bridge on the ship.


    The personal stuff:
    So you have a holographic crew right? And one of those crew members appears to be a male humanoid. Maybe he gets it in his head that male humanoids are boring, and changes his appearance. The cool part is, the computer retroactively adjusts the memories of all the (unawakened?) crew so they think it's normal, he's always been like that. Er, she has always been like that. She's always been a Talaxian. Or a Klingon.

    The main computer. It has an AI too right, or does it? Loads to explore there. Maybe the crew has to weigh the possibility of granting the main computer an AI, or leaving it in it's current state.

    Loads of material, even for personal character development.



    Thoughts, criticisms, comments, ideas, slander and abuse (okay maybe not), lets talk.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Hm, its an interesting idea. It also fits in with some of the underlying messages of star trek with questions about individual rights, and moral quandaries that have to be solved. It also makes sense to an extent that starfleet would do this. A delta quadrant time length of mission could be dangerous psychologically for crews, so sending out autonomous holograms to remove the risk of mental break downs in crews can almost make sense. The problem is the danger involved. They get attacked, or the ship gets damaged somehow, and they may go offline forever where a regular crew, or a crew full of Datas would be able to survive and repair. Then they are out all that information, and there is a derelict starship floating around just waiting to get scavenged.

    Id suggest sending out a set of mixed holograms and androids to try and cover all bases. Same rules apply about not realizing what they are until later in the series. And having a mix between solids and photons could even create interesting interactions between them when this all comes to light. *EDIT* You did mention post tng right? Then it wouldnt be beyond reasonable to be able to create data level androids or better.
    Last edited by Traab; 2011-12-02 at 05:27 PM.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Hm, its an interesting idea. It also fits in with some of the underlying messages of star trek with questions about individual rights, and moral quandaries that have to be solved. It also makes sense to an extent that starfleet would do this. A delta quadrant time length of mission could be dangerous psychologically for crews, so sending out autonomous holograms to remove the risk of mental break downs in crews can almost make sense. The problem is the danger involved. They get attacked, or the ship gets damaged somehow, and they may go offline forever where a regular crew, or a crew full of Datas would be able to survive and repair. Then they are out all that information, and there is a derelict starship floating around just waiting to get scavenged.

    Id suggest sending out a set of mixed holograms and androids to try and cover all bases. Same rules apply about not realizing what they are until later in the series. And having a mix between solids and photons could even create interesting interactions between them when this all comes to light. *EDIT* You did mention post tng right? Then it wouldnt be beyond reasonable to be able to create data level androids or better.
    Well, the ship having contact with Starfleet would really serve to amp up the tension from time to time. Maybe they're just on the fringes of Federation space, and only making lengthy jaunts out of Federation space under strict conditions. This actually serves to emphasize the whole experiment motif. If you had an experimetal robot, would you send him down the street for a jug of milk, or a farmers field in the middle of no where to get it straight from the cow? Odds are one would keep them close to the vest.

    And feeling like they are being reigned in by Starfleet could also be a bit of a theme.


    I think a mix of bio, mechanical, and photonic, would either work out really smoothly, or very clunky.
    Photonic are actually running the ship for the most part, automated mechanical systems and androids/robots are doing the adjustment/repair work, the biologicals... see they are the ones that don't entirely fit in.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2011-12-02 at 05:42 PM.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Selrahc's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    A detailed subject exploration into the nature of AI sentience and society will not benefit from attachment to the Star Trek brand, which brings with it all sorts of stupidity. The storytelling model of a star trek show will not benefit from the restrictions placed on them by the high concept premise.

    A similarish show was also done fairly recently in Caprica, and people didn't really go for it.
    Avatar by Simius

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    But if they have little to no armaments, then other than starfleet related drama, what can we really devote a series to? I mean, a big part of star trek, no matter what the series, is away missions that go bad, meeting with hostile groups, things like that. You can only run the internal drama reel for so long before it gets dull.

    Does the science stuff they are supposed to be doing even matter for anything? Or is it busy work they are given to do so starfleet can decide whether they are doing their job capably enough for mass production and real work?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    A detailed subject exploration into the nature of AI sentience and society will not benefit from attachment to the Star Trek brand, which brings with it all sorts of stupidity. The storytelling model of a star trek show will not benefit from the restrictions placed on them by the high concept premise.

    A similarish show was also done fairly recently in Caprica, and people didn't really go for it.
    Ah. Excellent point.

    Well, maybe that means it would have to be detached from Trek. The Trek description helps people visualize the idea somewhat, but I agree that taking existing model of show and adding in the 'high concept premise' may turn off viewers if approached thusly.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    I doubt an 'artificial life' show of any type would work. You'd fast run into the problem of what to have the characters do. And the only way yo have drama is the make the artificial life exactly like humans. And then if they are exactly like humans, they are not 'artificial life' anymore.

    You will notice that the first thing that is done to any 'non-human' character is that they are made human.

    Your show also has the dreaded 'Lost' syndrome......and we really need to stop copying that one show.

    The best bet for a Star Trek show would be: Star Trek Anthology. The idea would be an hour long show that just had 'random' star trek stores. You could have a small 'core cast' of all new characters to fill up say a third of the shows. But the best part is you could have any actor from any star trek have 1-3 episodes to tell a story. This would be a great way to fill in the gaps in storyline, give characters more story, and tell the past/futures of each character.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2006

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    I would say this would only work if the holographic nature of the crew was revealed right away, or at the least within the first 3-4 episodes. Having that kind of switch after a whole season would do nothing more than anger viewers. Have a few episodes being the crew looking at strange events, climaxing in the big reveal, and then start exploring the consequences of their knowledge for the rest of the show. Also you need to make the crew relatively easily killable or else you lose all chance of dramatic tension.
    At the heart of all beauty lies something inhuman, and these hills, the softness of the sky, the outline of the trees at this very minute lose the illusory meaning with which we clothed them, henceforth more remote than a lost paradise.
    -Camus, An Absurd Reasoning


    Fourth Doctor avatar courtesy of Szilard

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodtide View Post
    The best bet for a Star Trek show would be: Star Trek Anthology. The idea would be an hour long show that just had 'random' star trek stores. You could have a small 'core cast' of all new characters to fill up say a third of the shows. But the best part is you could have any actor from any star trek have 1-3 episodes to tell a story. This would be a great way to fill in the gaps in storyline, give characters more story, and tell the past/futures of each character.
    Yeah, I've been thinking about that type of Star Trek show for quite a while. Set on a Klingon ship this week, a Q story next, then gun-runners moving weapons to a resistance force on an occupied planet. And, every once and a while, the Enterprise pops up...

    In my head, I called it Star Trek Universe. And then those Star Gate jerks stole my name.
    Thanks to lindorm for the cat avatar!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by zingbat View Post
    Yeah, I've been thinking about that type of Star Trek show for quite a while. Set on a Klingon ship this week, a Q story next, then gun-runners moving weapons to a resistance force on an occupied planet. And, every once and a while, the Enterprise pops up...

    In my head, I called it Star Trek Universe. And then those Star Gate jerks stole my name.
    That would be insanely difficult to pull off. Not only would you have huge difficulties with the props and CGI from week to week since you can't re-use sets, but you're also cutting against the grain of modern television writing, which is for more continuity and complex arcs rather than Twilight Zone-style episodic stories. Really, I think TNG was the last science fiction show that successfully pulled off the episode-by-episode format. Which makes sense, since the only real advantage to episodic stories, and the reason why they originally worked in that format, is so that they could show episodes out of order in syndication.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ravens_cry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    I think Caprica did a terrible job of it, from what I saw of it.
    We got robots that are basically advanced Roombas and a guy is suddenly able to upload his daughters mind into a computer and boom, we got advanced, mind grade AI?
    I think we missed a few steps here.
    Also, Star Trek has explored the nature of sentience and Artificial Intelligence several times.
    Data, Moriarty, Vic Fontaine, The Doctor, among others also.
    Sometimes it was handled pretty well, The Doctor and Data, other times less well, but it has been done.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodtide View Post
    I doubt an 'artificial life' show of any type would work. You'd fast run into the problem of what to have the characters do. And the only way yo have drama is the make the artificial life exactly like humans. And then if they are exactly like humans, they are not 'artificial life' anymore.
    Thus far in Trek, almost all artificial life was personified, save for a few variants here and there. None the less, this is still an issue, I agree.


    Your show also has the dreaded 'Lost' syndrome......and we really need to stop copying that one show.
    Never watched Lost but I heard lots of terrible things. I will take this as a sign. No, I'm not offended, to be clear.


    The best bet for a Star Trek show would be: Star Trek Anthology. The idea would be an hour long show that just had 'random' star trek stores. You could have a small 'core cast' of all new characters to fill up say a third of the shows. But the best part is you could have any actor from any star trek have 1-3 episodes to tell a story. This would be a great way to fill in the gaps in storyline, give characters more story, and tell the past/futures of each character.
    Gawd, I would watch the heck out of that show, if it could be pulled off well.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    That would be insanely difficult to pull off.
    Yes, it would. It's easy to think of show concepts when you don't worry about production costs, scheduling and all that hard stuff. I all know is that I would watch it.
    Thanks to lindorm for the cat avatar!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodtide View Post
    I doubt an 'artificial life' show of any type would work. You'd fast run into the problem of what to have the characters do. And the only way yo have drama is the make the artificial life exactly like humans. And then if they are exactly like humans, they are not 'artificial life' anymore.
    Thus far in Trek, almost all artificial life was personified, save for a few variants here and there. None the less, this is still an issue, I agree.


    Your show also has the dreaded 'Lost' syndrome......and we really need to stop copying that one show.
    Never watched Lost but I heard lots of terrible things. I will take this as a sign. No, I'm not offended, to be clear.


    The best bet for a Star Trek show would be: Star Trek Anthology. The idea would be an hour long show that just had 'random' star trek stores. You could have a small 'core cast' of all new characters to fill up say a third of the shows. But the best part is you could have any actor from any star trek have 1-3 episodes to tell a story. This would be a great way to fill in the gaps in storyline, give characters more story, and tell the past/futures of each character.
    Gawd, I would watch the heck out of that show, if it could be pulled off well.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ravens_cry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by zingbat View Post
    Yes, it would. It's easy to think of show concepts when you don't worry about production costs, scheduling and all that hard stuff. I all know is that I would watch it.
    You got the costs of a genre show mixed with the inability to reuse sets and props on a regular basis.
    Producers would hate you so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lord Seth's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    That would be insanely difficult to pull off. Not only would you have huge difficulties with the props and CGI from week to week since you can't re-use sets, but you're also cutting against the grain of modern television writing, which is for more continuity and complex arcs rather than Twilight Zone-style episodic stories.
    I don't think "episodic" is the right word. "Episodic" is what you'd use to describe a show like Law & Order or House or almost all sitcoms...the main plot of each episode is standalone and is completed by the end of the episode (it's become more common nowadays for there to be a continuing story in addition to that, but the main plot is standalone). The Twilight Zone was an anthology series, meaning that every episode is completely standalone, not just in terms of the main plot, but in terms of premise and characters; no episode has anything to do with another (granted, The Outer Limits did have a few episodes that continued a story from a previous one...but still, those had nothing to do with any of the other episodes). Even if there's virtually no continuity in Law & Order (not counting when they switch out a character because an actor leaves), the show's premise and characters are the same. The Twilight Zone was an entirely new deal each episode.

    It is definitely true that anthology series have all but disappeared from television, though...something I can't say I'm sad about. So the chances of such a thing like that working seems a bit dubious to me.
    Really, I think TNG was the last science fiction show that successfully pulled off the episode-by-episode format. Which makes sense, since the only real advantage to episodic stories, and the reason why they originally worked in that format, is so that they could show episodes out of order in syndication.
    Well as noted, TNG was episodic, not an anthology. While there wasn't much continuity between episodes (there was some though, like Q for example), each episode still featured the same characters in the same starship.

    As for whether TNG was the last science fiction show to pull off being episodic...depends on how we're defining it. Are we limiting ourselves to only science fiction, and thus fantasy is out the window? Are we counting shows like The X-Files that were mostly episodic with the occasional "myth arc" episode? Are we counting shows that started out fairly episodic but got more serialized later on, like Fringe, or for that matter, DS9?

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    I think TNG had enough continuity to keep you watching, but was isolated in plot per episode, making it easy to jump in at any point and enjoy. It very rarely referenced past episodes. Or rather, if it did make a reference, it was either subtle, or it refered to a big event. Where Voyager I vaguely remember some reference to a past episode just about every episode. There is a possibility I'm mis-remembering, it's been a very long time since I watched Voyager.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2011

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    I think TNG had enough continuity to keep you watching, but was isolated in plot per episode, making it easy to jump in at any point and enjoy. It very rarely referenced past episodes. Or rather, if it did make a reference, it was either subtle, or it refered to a big event. Where Voyager I vaguely remember some reference to a past episode just about every episode. There is a possibility I'm mis-remembering, it's been a very long time since I watched Voyager.
    Back when TNG was being produced, the goal was to create completely self-contained standalone stories so that local television stations could show episodes in any order they wanted. Ron Moore in some of his post-Star Trek interviews has discussed how he and several other writers (Ira Steven Behr in particular) were continually at war with the production guys on this point: many writers wanted to draw upon prior episodes from time to time to continue certain stories, while the production guys always wanted them to cut those parts of the story arcs out. So mostly they just slipped it in as subtly as they could here and there. For instance, Worf's brother Kurn becomes executive officer aboard the Enterprise in the opening act of Sins of the Father in the same officer exchange program that Riker used to become XO of the Klingon battlecruiser Pagh in a second-season episode.

    Unfortunately, when the writing team from TNG split at the end of that show, all the writers who cared about continuity had gone over to DS9. Which left Voyager saddled with a concept that begged for carefully thought-out, season long arcs and a writing team that avoided such arcs like they were infected with the Vidian phage. This didn't mean that Voyager couldn't have worked out. After all, TNG and TOS are both shows that do largely self-contained, standalone episodes, and they are both considered two of the best science fiction series ever. But the Voyager team had already come off of doing 150 episodes of TNG, so the mana pool for their imagination was somewhat depleted at this point. This creative exhaustion, combined with the refusal to adhere to continuity explains most of why Voyager is remembered with such hatred.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Ravens_cry's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2008

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    I don't hate Voyager, I think it had some of the best characters in Star Trek, The Doctor especially, but yeah, it really could have been better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Soras Teva Gee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    This is a terrible premise.

    I'm sorry but it is and I'm not going to sugar coat it. Holodecks and holograms are probably the worst idea in Star Trek, why simulate a reality in your simulated reality. Mind you the initial idea is not that bad, but as soon as you take it from quick harmless gaming/recreation you've created... the holodeck episode.

    And your idea is Holodeck Episode: The Series.

    Afterall if these are all simulations who beam off on simulated adventures... what exactly is the point of their struggles? And they can't go on real adventures because they can't interact with anyone outside their little simulation bottle without the whole thing falling apart. You can't gallivant around the Alpha Quadrant and not expect to run into other people. What happens when this ships say gets a distress call (something even any Federation vessel is obligated to respond to morally) and suddenly can't provide any actual assistance, does the ship in distress get to die while the hologram crew gets a simulation. Or do you cover it with technobabble?

    Heck what the hell is Starfleet's motivation again? If you can perfectly automate a ship then you don't need a crew to run it, and can build a much simpler ship. Why have a crew of simulated humans fly around the galaxy at all. The Federation isn't as idealistically present as it was but this smacks of the sort of perverse games Q and his TOS omnipotent thematic predecessors cook up for fun.

    The only way this make any logical sense is for the entire series to take place in a big holodeck/computer in a Starfleet facility somewhere, everything is simulated by Starfleet for sociological study purposes. Which of course only emphasizes the hollowness of being a simulation and nothing the crew accomplishing mattering.

    Also with your stipulation against rebellion/rights you've rather robbed the characters of anything to do to give their lives meaning. What are they supposed to do, go around boringly collecting data from unpopulated areas and having sitcom seinfeldian conversations about their personal drama in their own simulated bottle world? Or just wangst endlessly about the poor poor fate of being a hologram?

    This all sounds like a one-trick pony with no idea how where its going or came from. The idea is fundamentally limited in what you can do with it, and that's no basis to run a series around.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    dehro's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    also..if your federation has the skills to create all encompassing "identities" who seem to be self sufficient and autonomous..they don't need to do that at all. they just need to pour those identities and notions right into the main computer...and away go bunks, personal cabins, etc..in fact, who needs a "limited" physical representation at all, if there are no biological creatures to interact with?

    there was an episode of VOY where an entire crew of holograms fought the voyager and was assisted, up to a point, by the doctor, in thier bid for existence and freedom. I don't remember exactly how it ended (if they got it or ended up living on the holodeck... but you could sort of create a spin off using that as a starting point...but once you're through the theme of the right to existence for holograms (something that I believe HAS been covered I believe in the doctor's case)...well..their actual existence as an effective contribution to federation purposes, in the form of an entire crew... is rather limited, from a television-show pov.
    All hail Smutmulch for crafting my avatar!
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Cursed zombies are more realistic.
    Spoiler: siggatar and previous avatars.
    Show

    the Badass Monkby Avi. Aktarus by Chd. Dehro by Wojiz


  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Dec 2010

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    DS9 already set the stage perfectly for a new Trek show. Having grown tired of war, the major factions are more willing to solve problems through negotiations, build new alliances, create new friendships, and repair fractured old relationships. They could blend the darker themes and pragmatism of DS9 with the optimism of the TNG and TOS. It's a great opportunity to create a series that combines the best elements of all the Star Trek shows.

    A new Star Trek should be about overcoming old prejudices and fears to create a more peaceful and stable future. It should also retain the serialized nature of DS9 so that it could show us the process through which these things could be accomplished. Prejudice and fear must be chipped away slowly and friendships must be forged through hardship and compromise, and it would take many episodes to show the gradual change in the relationship between the Federation and its former enemies.

    They can also return to the exploration of the unknown while incorporating new elements present during the time. The Federation isn't the only organization interested in learning more about the secrets of the universe. The other races are interested too and we rarely see those facets of the other races. It would be great to see joint scientific or exploratory ventures between the Federation and the Klingons or the Romulans or even the Dominion. It would combine the exploration elements that were more prominent in TOS and TNG with the relationship and political elements of DS9. A new Trek should be about rekindling that wonder and excitement of exploration and discovery. It should show us what we could become if we learned from the mistakes of the past and worked together to build a better future.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    behind u always behind u

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    I think a new show should happen in the opposite direction chronologically. A show set during the Klingon-Fed war. It was very very nasty, lots of space Marines, planetary insertions, no transporters, fighter craft, and good old fusion drives. It could be Hard Sci fi without a lot of the technobabble ST is so known for. No holodecks, real food rations, low powered shields, wholly overpowered hand weapons (ala old ST, if you notice Starfleet dials down the power level from-tank weapon powerful to power levels more in line with infantry combat), mass bombings of colonies and other features of a war of survival on an industrial scale and no kids on the freaking battleship.
    I will be master of "pushy pull slidy nothingf@c$1ng stacks" also known as 4th edition.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    This is a terrible premise.
    I've slowly come to realize this. Don't worry, I'm not offended.


    I'm sorry but it is and I'm not going to sugar coat it. Holodecks and holograms are probably the worst idea in Star Trek, why simulate a reality in your simulated reality. Mind you the initial idea is not that bad, but as soon as you take it from quick harmless gaming/recreation you've created... the holodeck episode.
    And your idea is Holodeck Episode: The Series.
    I did state that it would seek to avoid all this, but I believe my idea tried to hide from this by having a larger arc at play and a bunch of drama and character development. Still, the realization has set in.


    Afterall if these are all simulations who beam off on simulated adventures... what exactly is the point of their struggles? And they can't go on real adventures because they can't interact with anyone outside their little simulation bottle without the whole thing falling apart. You can't gallivant around the Alpha Quadrant and not expect to run into other people.
    That was actually the point. One of the issues to explore is, how deeply does their sense of duty extend from the self rather than programming? Are they still doing their assigned missions because they're programmed to, or are they doing it to keep their cover that they haven't discovered who and what they are, or are they doing it because their AI self actually enjoys having a purpose or a direction or maybe actually enjoys the particular 'career' they've been programmed with.
    Take the Doctor on Voyager. Did he like operating on people? Did he like waving a stick around to figure out what was wrong with people, or was he doing it entirely because he was programmed to?


    What happens when this ships say gets a distress call (something even any Federation vessel is obligated to respond to morally) and suddenly can't provide any actual assistance, does the ship in distress get to die while the hologram crew gets a simulation. Or do you cover it with technobabble?
    Um, maybe you missed the part where I mentioned that the holograms can project themselves beyond the ship? IE-Down to planets, onto other ships, etc. They can technobabble the reasoning of why they can now VS why they couldn't before. Or, do the mobile emitter thing from Voyager, but instead of "oh no, we lost the emitter, we lost the doctor" the emitter is just that, a mobile projection system.
    This was all covered in my original post, just saying.


    Heck what the hell is Starfleet's motivation again? If you can perfectly automate a ship then you don't need a crew to run it, and can build a much simpler ship. Why have a crew of simulated humans fly around the galaxy at all.
    That is actually the point. Smaller, faster ships with more stuff in them, because the crew isn't using a bridge, or decks, or really much of anything. As for why not fully automated, well, it would be as automated as possible, but there are times where you want a 'face' to handle a mission, such as negociation. Or maybe in engineering, the robot arms can't reach something, so you send in the hologram who has little if any risk of injury or death, and can get anywhere a person can get. Also, because it's a hologram, it can go other places, it can be shrunk for example.


    Also with your stipulation against rebellion/rights you've rather robbed the characters of anything to do to give their lives meaning. What are they supposed to do, go around boringly collecting data from unpopulated areas and having sitcom seinfeldian conversations about their personal drama in their own simulated bottle world? Or just wangst endlessly about the poor poor fate of being a hologram?
    I didn't stipulate that they couldn't, just that there are considerations that the crew would have to make.
    What could they do?
    -Rescue missions
    -Diplomatic missions
    -Exploration missions
    -Security/Combat missions
    -Aid missions
    Etc.
    Remember, they were built with the notion that they could replace a human crew, that means they have to have the same capabilities (and more) that a human crew has, ergo they have to be able to perform the same tasks no?
    This is before you begin exploring the larger arcs, any character development, and any of the x factor that Star Trek was famous for.
    IE-On Voyager, the crew encountered a group of life forms that regarded the doctor as a life form (photonic) but thought the rest of the crew were illusionary.


    This all sounds like a one-trick pony with no idea how where its going or came from. The idea is fundamentally limited in what you can do with it, and that's no basis to run a series around.
    Despite my refutes, I agree that it would be a poor series, just not as poor of one as you think. Rather, it would probably be a really poor Star Trek series, given how they've (backwardsly) set up holograms to be extremely limited in the first place.
    I dunno, my imagination seems perfectly able to run wild in this premise. But as someone pointed out, it has a bit too much 'lost' in it, and I think it would suffer from trying very hard to not be a constant holodeck episode. It's not impossible, but I highly doubt one could pitch it to a producer and get vary far with it.


    @Klingon War
    I think it would be amazing for them to base the series around this time period and have the war come in and out from time to time. War VS X focus does get a bit tiresome. That said, the Klingon Wars are all based around the time before Kirk and while Kirk is around yes? Yeah, lots of potential for all kinds of story in that era. And maybe even cameos.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2011-12-06 at 11:18 AM.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Any attempts at a new star trek show should start with the realization that "cruising through space, visting the planet of the week we're never going to see again" does no longer work as a premise. When TNG did it, it was still exiting, but when Voyager did it again, it didn't work so well, and when Enterprise did the same thing again, I stopped watching because after the first 3 minutes of every episode, I knew exatly how the rest of the episode would turn out. Because they had used the very same plot like 5 timed before. It's been done before, and we've seen it. A thousand times.

    Any attempt of reviving star trek should have a clear storyline, at least for the span of each season, that has lots of reoccuring characters and places. It improves a show so much! When you have your regular ports where you stop for supplies every four or five episodes, with some of the crew visting their regular bar, and so on.
    When Enterprise started, I really liked the first episodes, when the crew were the noobs in space, who entered a strange new world of foreign people, who seemed to be accustomed to the way things are done, but humans are the one alien species that is still trying to find its way around the place. Too bad that this was dropped after four episodes or so. But having a kind of stable society that the characters can explore with the audience makes science fiction interesting, and that doesn't work when every society is only visited for 15 minutes before being completely forgotten.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Soras Teva Gee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    Um, maybe you missed the part where I mentioned that the holograms can project themselves beyond the ship? IE-Down to planets, onto other ships, etc. They can technobabble the reasoning of why they can now VS why they couldn't before. Or, do the mobile emitter thing from Voyager, but instead of "oh no, we lost the emitter, we lost the doctor" the emitter is just that, a mobile projection system.
    This was all covered in my original post, just saying.
    I have misinterpreted this line then:

    Them transporting over to other ships or down to the surface? Nope, that's just them uploading to the computer to then be projected elsewhere. The computer programs in the memory of walking onto a transporter pad to continue the illusion of being real people.

    However I must note that the "mobile emitter" was even purer technobabble then hologram/holodeck was to begin with. Specifically 29th century future-tech that Voyager (apparently) couldn't replicate and never explained beyond its function as a plot device. And even then at the core a hologram was a light and force-fields they are never going to be easy to hide.

    That is actually the point. Smaller, faster ships with more stuff in them, because the crew isn't using a bridge, or decks, or really much of anything. As for why not fully automated, well, it would be as automated as possible, but there are times where you want a 'face' to handle a mission, such as negociation. Or maybe in engineering, the robot arms can't reach something, so you send in the hologram who has little if any risk of injury or death, and can get anywhere a person can get. Also, because it's a hologram, it can go other places, it can be shrunk for example.
    I don't think you grasp the magnitude. Judging by every Trek vessel there is a vast percentage of their volume devoted to human space. Because humans need space.

    Mind you Trek ships are ridiculously lavishly tremendously roomy for having corridors people can walk in both directions down alone. Never mind the multi-room quarters or amenity spaces. On an modern aircraft carrier even the captain and admiral don't have quite the space a Starfleet officer does, and their cabin is also their office.

    We'd be talking a slimmed down engineering section of Voyager something comparable in capability, because the rest would be superfluous. For a smaller science vessel we rapidly start talking DS9 runabout size. So we immediately have a problem with a ship that isn't large enough to sustain its supposed crew. Or we have a ship with a ridiculous amount of dead space and tremendously screwy power/maintenance requirements to simulate a ship and the requirements of hiding its nature to a non-existent crew. Right down to navigation because its mass would not match a similar ship built to keep humans alive.

    And how do holograms do maintenance on a failed emitter or series of failures? Even technobabbling getting the emitter to the hologram fixing it... I simply can't imagine anything being able to fix equipment (well) without knowing something of its purpose.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    H Birchgrove's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Växjö, Sweden
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend View Post
    I think a new show should happen in the opposite direction chronologically. A show set during the Klingon-Fed war. It was very very nasty, lots of space Marines, planetary insertions, no transporters, fighter craft, and good old fusion drives. It could be Hard Sci fi without a lot of the technobabble ST is so known for. No holodecks, real food rations, low powered shields, wholly overpowered hand weapons (ala old ST, if you notice Starfleet dials down the power level from-tank weapon powerful to power levels more in line with infantry combat), mass bombings of colonies and other features of a war of survival on an industrial scale and no kids on the freaking battleship.
    I like it, but it shouldn't be as dark and emocore as Battlestar Galactica (especially the 3rd and 4th seasons) and Stargate: Universe.

    There should also be a modicum of moral behaviour from the protagonists; none of the "the ends justify the means" crapola from Battlestar Galactica.

    There should also be brawling and good ol' fisticuffs. I miss that from ST:TOS.
    Viking/Paladin by Astrella

    Gender Bender by Geomancer.

    In love with Skeppio.

    Contact me:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Skype: hammerbirchgrove

    Twitter: @MarcusSweden1

    My tumblr

    My DeviantART



  28. - Top - End - #28
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Where ever trouble brews
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Any attempts at a new star trek show should start with the realization that "cruising through space, visting the planet of the week we're never going to see again" does no longer work as a premise. When TNG did it, it was still exiting, but when Voyager did it again, it didn't work so well, and when Enterprise did the same thing again, I stopped watching because after the first 3 minutes of every episode, I knew exatly how the rest of the episode would turn out. Because they had used the very same plot like 5 timed before. It's been done before, and we've seen it. A thousand times.

    Any attempt of reviving star trek should have a clear storyline, at least for the span of each season, that has lots of reoccuring characters and places. It improves a show so much! When you have your regular ports where you stop for supplies every four or five episodes, with some of the crew visting their regular bar, and so on.
    When Enterprise started, I really liked the first episodes, when the crew were the noobs in space, who entered a strange new world of foreign people, who seemed to be accustomed to the way things are done, but humans are the one alien species that is still trying to find its way around the place. Too bad that this was dropped after four episodes or so. But having a kind of stable society that the characters can explore with the audience makes science fiction interesting, and that doesn't work when every society is only visited for 15 minutes before being completely forgotten.
    One thing I thought TNG did well, even if many planets it visited were never seen again, was a sense of 'we are in this together.' Especially when visiting Federation/Starfleet outposts.

    I think if any series took a group of 'core' planets and focused the story in their section of space (remembering that space is really really big, so the stuff between planet X and planet Y is a pretty big area to explore) and branched out from time to time, would create a real sense that these worlds are important. Almost like family.
    These core planets don't have to be in a 'core' location. Earth might not even be involved. This could be any cluster of systems, possibly with some new races, some old, but the big deal here is that they should be 'core' to the story. Star Trek could benefit from a touch more space opera, this would help develop the universe a bit more.
    As for branching out from time to time, I don't just mean adding a new planet to the core every season. I mean "Hey, we've been given this really cool directive to go into this section of space and chart out this stuff, make contact with these people, and [insert hijinks] as well." It would make voyages of exploration a big deal, really capture that spirit of adventure.
    Vaction trips to places like Riza suddenly feel like a big occasion. Having fun typically should feel like a big deal, especially to the viewer. A trip to Earth or Vulcan or any other big well known planet should really feel like a big deal.
    ~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
    Quote Originally Posted by gooddragon1 View Post
    If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
    "In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!"
    "Please consult your DM before administering Steve brand Aboleth Mucus.
    Ask your DM if Aboleth Mucus is right for you.
    Side effects include coughing, sneezing, and other flu like symptoms, cancer, breathing water like a fish, loss of dignity, loss of balance, loss of bowel and bladder control."

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2008

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    A similarish show was also done fairly recently in Caprica, and people didn't really go for it.
    I felt the problem with Caprica was you can't explore the subject of the dividing line between man and machine by making your robots identical to people.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Banned
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2010

    Default Re: New Star Trek Series-Hypothetical

    Quote Originally Posted by McStabbington View Post
    That would be insanely difficult to pull off. Not only would you have huge difficulties with the props and CGI from week to week since you can't re-use sets, but you're also cutting against the grain of modern television writing, which is for more continuity and complex arcs rather than Twilight Zone-style episodic stories. Really, I think TNG was the last science fiction show that successfully pulled off the episode-by-episode format. Which makes sense, since the only real advantage to episodic stories, and the reason why they originally worked in that format, is so that they could show episodes out of order in syndication.
    I'm not even in Hollywood, and I can think of ways to pull this off.

    First as you can set your story anywhere, any when in the whole history of Star Trek, it's easy enough to use existing sets. Plenty of 'colony worlds' can look like the old west, for example.

    Second, you want more character based stories. Less special effects. For example O'Brian teaching a class and dealing with an issue or Dr. Crusher in a hospital setting would not need a huge space battle.

    Third, each story only features one character. So, for example if you were doing a Trip story, he would not really need to leave the engine room much to tell a story. You would never need see the bridge, for example.

    The main point of this show is that it would be made for the fans. Something like 55% of people are Star Trek fans, a huge untapped audience. And not only do they want to watch more Star Trek, they want to watch good Star Trek. The trick is to write it for the fans, not try to make it all 'cool' and sell it to Ma and Pa Kettle.(They will just have to live with only 50% of the country/world watching the show)

    And you could make it a nice 'new type' of 'arc'. Just think, you have a crew of new(cheap) people on the USS Ambassador, zipping around the Federation fixing things, mostly diplomatically, set after the end of the dominion war. First you can bring back all (yes all) the old stuff to attract the old fans. Just watch any episode and if you ask, what ever happen to.... So first you'd reference the old episode, then you can add in a new show..with the guest star..to tie the two stories together.
    Last edited by bloodtide; 2011-12-07 at 01:41 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •