Metal Thread VI: We're So Kvlt, We Have Frostbite On Our Devil Horn Fingers

[grimbold]

I wonder what deeper meaning those can infer on the eclectic art of ear-cleaning. Though it's pretty clear which boundaries are getting expanded by the extra thick cotton tip

oh dearie me...

[WhamBamSam]

You COULD say you don't like that style of music. Like, "I don't like Trash." Or "I dont like American Thrash a lot."

But here's the thing, you can't expect people to know what Thrash is. Most people don't really have much understanding of all the various metal sub-genres. I can't say "I don't really like Thrash all that much. I'm more of a Classic Metal fan, y'know, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Dio, that sort of thing," because they don't know that sort of thing. So even though I try to deflect the Metal=Metallica assumption politely, I feel like it comes off as snobbish when I do so, and it's annoying. At least with A7X or Slipknot or whatever there has to be some general understanding that Metal existed before they did and will exist after they're gone.

If we're gonna do this let's do it right.

Old School Death Metal Battle (1987-1995): Florida vs Sweden!

Swedeath can suck on Floridian DM's thing-that-the-state-of-its-origin-is-shaped-like. The '95 cutoff takes The Sound of Perseverance out of the equation, but even so. Nothing has come out of Sweden that can stand up against Death's work from Human onwards. Without Death it'd more even, maybe even favoring the Swedes ever so slightly, but here in reality the side with Chuck Shuldiner on it is the clear winner in my opinion.

Death, your God is Death.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Dream Theater is hardly "metal elitist" material.

Bull. Maybe it's not your kind of elitism, but I'm deeply elitist against your kind of elitism.

I find it deeply ironic when metal and punk kids break out the "that's not music, that's noise!" shtick. I thought that was for radio programmers in the 50s.

Music does by definition have to have some sort of pattern to it. I'm usually pretty good at pattern recognition, but I'm not getting much from Sunn O))). On the other hand, I don't care to spend the necessary time listening to their music to find any sense of order in it, and I actually generally agree with this sentiment, so I'm going to concede that point.

[toasty]

I find it deeply ironic when metal and punk kids break out the "that's not music, that's noise!" shtick. I thought that was for radio programmers in the 50s.

Oh I realize the irony. But, this and this, and this don't strike me as noise. As compared to that.

The key is "as compared to that." I realize that a lot of this sounds like noise. Heck, I thought Hardcore was just a bunch of noise for a long time. Then I listened to They're only Chasing Safety by Underoath and I realized how wrong I had been...

But here's the thing, you can't expect people to know what Thrash is. Most people don't really have much understanding of all the various metal sub-genres. I can't say "I don't really like Thrash all that much. I'm more of a Classic Metal fan, y'know, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Dio, that sort of thing," because they don't know that sort of thing. So even though I try to deflect the Metal=Metallica assumption politely, I feel like it comes off as snobbish when I do so, and it's annoying. At least with A7X or Slipknot or whatever there has to be some general understanding that Metal existed before they did and will exist after they're gone.

Then those people don't like music period, and really, you don't need to respect them. Punk from the 70s is different than punk from the 80s. Pop in the 70s is different from Pop in the 90s. Etc.

When you say Thrash and they say "What is that?" then you just say, "its a -subgenre." If they give you a blank stare its probably time to move on. Maybe I hang around people that are too obsessed with music or something... but most people understand that.

@SwedeDeath v Florida: I will listen and decide. I'm pretty sure that I will side with dem Swedes. I really wish I lived in Scandinivia instead of friggin Texas. Indie Rock and Texas Country are... okay.. but they are not nearly as good as Metal.

[Moff Chumley]

Bull. Maybe it's not your kind of elitism, but I'm deeply elitist against your kind of elitism.

Fair, although I don't think I'm very elitist; I just know what I like.

[grimbold]

Swedeath can suck on Floridian DM's thing-that-the-state-of-its-origin-is-shaped-like. The '95 cutoff takes The Sound of Perseverance out of the equation, but even so. Nothing has come out of Sweden that can stand up against Death's work from Human onwards. Without Death it'd more even, maybe even favoring the Swedes ever so slightly, but here in reality the side with Chuck Shuldiner on it is the clear winner in my opinion.

[UR

not death metal but

Malmsteen on Death

Oo

but quite honestly,
they both have their advantages. The Swedish scene was a lot cleaner and had more musicality, in bands like Underoath or Dark Tranquility even early In Flames and Therion.

yet the Florida scene is just so BRUTAL and DESTRUCTIVE it rips the head off Swedish metal
I mean very few bands in the world today are as extreme as Death was. The only one who comes to mind is Revocation one of my favorite ever groups.

[eyeofsaulot]

I really wish I lived in Scandinivia instead of friggin Texas. Indie Rock and Texas Country are... okay.. but they are not nearly as good as Metal.

Hey now, don't be too down on the state of metal in Texas:
Absu
Vex
Giant Squid
Bat Castle
The Roller

[WhamBamSam]

Proof once more than Yngwe Malmsteen has zero ranks in Knowledge (What The Hell He's Talking About).

Truth. For all his fancy wankery, Malmsteen isn't even playing in the same league that Shuldiner was.

Then those people don't like music period, and really, you don't need to respect them. Punk from the 70s is different than punk from the 80s. Pop in the 70s is different from Pop in the 90s. Etc.

When you say Thrash and they say "What is that?" then you just say, "its a -subgenre." If they give you a blank stare its probably time to move on. Maybe I hang around people that are too obsessed with music or something... but most people understand that.

I guess. I dunno, it just seems like the more I have to explain the snobbier I'm going to sound. I suppose it can't be helped, but given that music is one of the few topics on which I feel I should be able to make decent small talk, it'd be nice if that weren't the case.

[Faulty]

Bull. Maybe it's not your kind of elitism, but I'm deeply elitist against your kind of elitism.

My experience: everyone who plays guitar loves them, and everyone who doesn't hates them.

FIGHT! Discuss.

Swedeath, despite how much Obituary may try to woo me with their loveliness. Sorry guys, but Swedeath just does something for me that Florida death doesn't for some inexplicable reason.

[eyeofsaulot]

Florida still wins hands down. Even though for Deicide you should've used Dead by Dawn or Trifixion :v Though if you're gonna go all the way up to 1995 I would've included something from Human for Death and definitely Hammer Smashed Face for Cannibal Corpse :v

I wasn't quite sure at to where the cutoff point should be. Could've been as early as '92 or '93, but I wanted to include some more important bands and albums.

Old School Death Metal Battle (1987-1995): Florida vs Sweden!

Context: it seems like an entire country vs a single US state should be unfair, but looking at the censuses of these two places from 1990 shows that Florida exceeded Sweden's population by nearly 5 million people. Facts, wow!

As much as I love a lot of those Swedish bands, I don't see their influence too readily. I'll give Entombed credit for inventing Death 'n' Roll, but where did that genre go? Therion may have invented Symphonic Death Metal, but once again, not much happened there. Dark Tranquillity and In Flames spawned a whole slew of melodeath bands, but I’m not too sure they should be proud of that. And frankly, I don't know if melodeath belongs in a discussion about Old School Death Metal, anyway.

In my mind, Florida wins. No contest, even. First off, they've got Atheist, the first tech-death band. I mean, in what was considered to be an utterly barbaric genre, Atheist and Cynic had the balls to make it jazzy. I think it's amazing for the time that they found an audience for their music. Nocturnus's The Key might just be the first death metal concept album (albeit a wacky one). And then in the brutality department, Florida wins again what with Deicide and the like. And then there's the absolute most important factor:

…in reality the side with Chuck Shuldiner on it is the clear winner in my opinion.

Death (alongside the non-Floridian Possessed) were the pioneers of Death Metal, and they're influence cannot be understated. There's a reason people call Schuldiner the Father of Death Metal. And Death is not only the most important Death Metal band, but they safely stand among the most important metal bands of all time.

The only arena where I think Swedish DM wins over Floridian DM is that the Swedish stuff sure is catchy. I could listen to Dismember all day long.

EDIT: Oh right, and I forgot that Mikael Akerfeldt says that Altars of Madness is his favorite death metal album and that Morbid Angel is his favorite death metal band. Not, you know, a Swedish DM band, which I find amusing.

[Killer Angel]

If we're gonna do this let's do it right.

Old School Death Metal Battle (1987-1995): Florida vs Sweden!

Florida Vs Sweden. Winner: Sweden
Chuck Shuldiner Vs Sweden. Winner: Chuck
Chuck Vs Florida Vs Sweden. Winner: all of us.

[Feytalist]

Man, I've tried liking death metal, and I just don't.

But I can at least listen to early Therion, and At the Gates and Dark Tranquility. Because it's slightly more catchy? I dunno. Not so much the other stuff. Except Death. Mostly because I actually like Chuck's vocals. And because it's Death.

[grimbold]

Proof once more than Yngwe Malmsteen has zero ranks in Knowledge (What The Hell He's Talking About).

yup...

Hey now, don't be too down on the state of metal in Texas:
Absu
Vex
Giant Squid
Bat Castle
The Roller

and pantera... also Damageplan

]

I guess. I dunno, it just seems like the more I have to explain the snobbier I'm going to sound. I suppose it can't be helped, but given that music is one of the few topics on which I feel I should be able to make decent small talk, it'd be nice if that weren't the case.

yes

le typical conversation

"Oh you play guitar a lot?"

"yeah"

"like what"

"metal and jazz and classical"

"like metallica?"



XD

As much as I love a lot of those Swedish bands, I don't see their influence too readily. I'll give Entombed credit for inventing Death 'n' Roll, but where did that genre go? Therion may have invented Symphonic Death Metal, but once again, not much happened there. Dark Tranquillity and In Flames spawned a whole slew of melodeath bands, but I’m not too sure they should be proud of that. And frankly, I don't know if melodeath belongs in a discussion about Old School Death Metal, anyway.

In my mind, Florida wins. No contest, even. First off, they've got Atheist, the first tech-death band. I mean, in what was considered to be an utterly barbaric genre, Atheist and Cynic had the balls to make it jazzy. I think it's amazing for the time that they found an audience for their music. Nocturnus's The Key might just be the first death metal concept album (albeit a wacky one). And then in the brutality department, Florida wins again what with Deicide and the like. And then there's the absolute most important factor:



Death (alongside the non-Floridian Possessed) were the pioneers of Death Metal, and they're influence cannot be understated. There's a reason people call Schuldiner the Father of Death Metal. And Death is not only the most important Death Metal band, but they safely stand among the most important metal bands of all time.

The only arena where I think Swedish DM wins over Floridian DM is that the Swedish stuff sure is catchy. I could listen to Dismember all day long.

[

well death n roll brought us goatwhore for one thing... and symphonic death metal has created a lot of cool things and has been a big influence on viking metal

otherwise i do agree with you on many of your points

but i think that the swedish scene was more important and better because it brought VIKING METAL with no In Flames or Therion there would be none of the folk metal we love

also a lot of more modern power metal has major Therion and Dark Tranquility influences

Hammerfall started out as a In Flames split off group!


but i do agree that both scenes are awesome and band for band florida probably wins, but of the bands they influenced i prefer the swedish influenced ones

Florida Vs Sweden. Winner: Sweden
Chuck Shuldiner Vs Sweden. Winner: Chuck
Chuck Vs Florida Vs Sweden. Winner: all of us.

but this is so true!

also
is it just me or did the forum really glitch on faulty and make him quadruple post?

and i just found this

i definitely felt that when i was younger and even today as i'm still a teen

anyone else?

[Killer Angel]

is it just me or did the forum really glitch on faulty and make him quadruple post?

It appears so.

edit: apparently, it has been fixed now. Don't know by who, though.

and i just found this

I knew I'm smart!

[Faulty]

I'm going with what I like, rather than what's most influential or daringly jazzy. For some reason Swedeath just really does it for me. I just like the style I guess. I'm not an enormous old school DM fan otherwise generally, though at some point I should go on an old school US/Floridian DM binge and see what I think. Right now I'm too busy fawning over Sigh.

It appears so.

edit: apparently, it has been fixed now. Don't know by who, though.

I fixed it myself.

Also, she, not he, for future reference.

[grimbold]

I knew I'm smart!

i think you have that backwards... XD

[Moff Chumley]

My experience: everyone who plays guitar loves them, and everyone who doesn't hates them.

You, my friend, need to hang out with better guitarists.

About the wankiest any of the guitarists I play with get is Animals as Leaders, and much as I can appreciate how talented those guys are, still hardly my cuppa tea. Of course, all my bands are different flavors of indie/alt rock/post-punk, so I dunno what that proves.

Yes I do, it proves I need to be in a metal band. Why are there no metal drummers around here who don't think Whitechapel is the end-all, be-all of metal?

[grimbold]

Yes I do, it proves I need to be in a metal band. Why are there no metal drummers around here who don't think Whitechapel is the end-all, be-all of metal?

that is very sad...

[Faulty]

Why are there no metal drummers around here who don't think Whitechapel is the end-all, be-all of metal?

A New Era of Corruption like... so totally speaks to my tortured soul.

[WhamBamSam]

My experience: everyone who plays guitar loves them, and everyone who doesn't hates them.

I like guitar wankery. Yngwe Malmsteen is the only case I've ever experienced where I really thought it was obnoxiously over the top. Anyway DT isn't just guitar wanking, it's a great big instrumental circle jerk, and it's beautiful. Honestly though, I think that DT get a bum rap when people say that it's all just a technical exercise with no real songwriting. Certainly I get more out of DT riffs, melodies, etc than I do out of the works of any of the bands that get praised for writing great songs with less flashy musicianship.

Death (alongside the non-Floridian Possessed) were the pioneers of Death Metal, and they're influence cannot be understated. There's a reason people call Schuldiner the Father of Death Metal. And Death is not only the most important Death Metal band, but they safely stand among the most important metal bands of all time.

I'm actually not big on the first three Death albums, which I get the feeling were the most influential. I'm more interested in where he went on Human and beyond. There's just so much emotion in his vocals and playing, and there's something so unique about his style of riffing and soloing. Then there's the compositions; the way he manages to change things up so abruptly without making the song sound like an arbitrary stack of riffs, the way the bass is worked into everything... The music that Chuck made was just so goddam beautiful, and it seems to me at least that he had a much deeper understanding of the genre that he created than any of his imitators did.

Yes I do, it proves I need to be in a metal band. Why are there no metal drummers around here who don't think Whitechapel is the end-all, be-all of metal?

Meh, just because the drummer likes Whitechapel doesn't mean that the music has to sound like Whitechapel. Just find a metal drummer that you get along with and who you won't argue with over every little thing. Mix your influences. Make something that the Sludge/Post-whatever/third genre whatever-you-play-ist and the Deathcore drummer both like.

[Faulty]

I like guitar wankery. Yngwe Malmsteen is the only case I've ever experienced where I really thought it was obnoxiously over the top. Anyway DT isn't just guitar wanking, it's a great big instrumental circle jerk, and it's beautiful. Honestly though, I think that DT get a bum rap when people say that it's all just a technical exercise with no real songwriting. Certainly I get more out of DT riffs, melodies, etc than I do out of the works of any of the bands that get praised for writing great songs with less flashy musicianship.

DT are a musical circle jerk but they're nothing like Malmsteen. I think they're actually attempting song writing and emotional gravitas, but get caught up in their own skill. I can understand liking it, I think they just have a nasty habit of getting ahead of themselves.



Chumster, have you considered craigslist?

[eyeofsaulot]

and pantera... also Damageplan

I was linking to current Texas metal bands. Pretty sure Dimebag's still dead.

well death n roll brought us goatwhore for one thing...

I don't know anything about Goatwhore, but that's not really the point anyway. I'm not saying Entombed had no influence; I'm saying they didn't influence nearly as many bands as a good number of the Floridian bands did.

and symphonic death metal has created a lot of cool things and has been a big influence on viking metal

I'm not sure I see the connection. Viking Metal bands tend to be more folk-oriented than symphonic-oriented.

but i think that the swedish scene was more important and better because it brought VIKING METAL with no In Flames or Therion there would be none of the folk metal we love

Yes, Sweden brought us Viking Metal, but Bathory wasn't part of Sweden's death metal scene.

I'm not at all convinced of Therion's or In Flames's influence on Folk Metal. If they did in fact have an impact, there are plenty of bands who had a much greater impact, including loads of non-metal bands that came long before either of them.

also a lot of more modern power metal has major Therion and Dark Tranquility influences

I don't doubt Therion's influence, but any influence they had on the world of Power Metal (and Symphonic Metal) was probably from albums like Theli or Vovin (i.e. the more realized symphonic albums) and not their death metal albums. And I really don't know about Dark Tranquillity having an effect on modern power metal. I never noticed any connection, but it might just be that the influence affected bands I don't listen to.

I'm actually not big on the first three Death albums, which I get the feeling were the most influential. I'm more interested in where he went on Human and beyond. There's just so much emotion in his vocals and playing, and there's something so unique about his style of riffing and soloing. Then there's the compositions; the way he manages to change things up so abruptly without making the song sound like an arbitrary stack of riffs, the way the bass is worked into everything... The music that Chuck made was just so goddam beautiful, and it seems to me at least that he had a much deeper understanding of the genre that he created than any of his imitators did.

Probably the first two albums were the most influential. People tend to overlook Spiritual Healing. Might be because it's more of a bridge between the two DM styles Death employed, and it doesn't really please either camp or help define a particular style.

Chuck really mastered the simplistic, brutal side as well as the complex, intellectual side of Death Metal. The man had talent.

[WhamBamSam]

i just found this

i definitely felt that when i was younger and even today as i'm still a teen

anyone else?

In some ways yes. I was definitely one of the smart kids in High School (less so in college since upper level math classes are just full to bursting with smart people), and I started really getting into metal during a very stressful time during my Freshman year of College, but at the same time neither the Math department nor the fancy, prestigious, ivory-tower, liberal indoctrination center that is the University of Michigan as a whole are exactly crawling with metalheads. Also, my parents are wonderful and completely supportive, so I'm pretty sure that my brother and I love metal for reasons that have nothing to do with a bad home situation, though I can see why family issues might push someone toward the genre.

Probably the first two albums were the most influential. People tend to overlook Spiritual Healing. Might be because it's more of a bridge between the two DM styles Death employed, and it doesn't really please either camp or help define a particular style.

It could also be that Spiritual Healing is full of obnoxious social commentary, which comes across as painfully ham-handed when expressed through Death Metal regardless of your opinion on the issues.

Chuck really mastered the simplistic, brutal side as well as the complex, intellectual side of Death Metal. The man had talent.

I guess, but everything can be out-brutalized. The first two Death albums might have done what they did first, but the later albums did what they did best.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

Damn, tough choice... I mean, The Jester Race is one of my all-time favorite albums. Still, Florida pumped out some killer DM in the late 80s. But seriously, Human is not Death's best album! If there is one thing that would sway me towards Floridian DM, it would have to be Leprosy, although Scream Bloody Gore is up there too.

Actually, nevermind. Florida wins, hands down. I can't believe I almost forgot Morbid Angel. Sorry Melodeath, maybe if we'd included Finnish Melodeath (i.e. Amorphis) then there would have been a real contest.

[eyeofsaulot]

It could also be that Spiritual Healing is full of obnoxious social commentary, which comes across as painfully ham-handed when expressed through Death Metal regardless of your opinion on the issues.

The ham-fistedness of the social commentary on Spiritual Healing is due to the lyrics, not the genre. There is plenty of social commentary in the albums following SH, but Chuck had gotten astronomically better as a lyricist when he wrote them. I don't see why Death Metal should be less apt to tackle social issues than any other genre. Regardless, you're right that the soapbox aspect of the album could be what was detrimental to its legacy.

I guess, but everything can be out-brutalized. The first two Death albums might have done what they did first, but the later albums did what they did best.

Well-said.

But seriously, Human is not Death's best album! If there is one thing that would sway me towards Floridian DM, it would have to be Leprosy, although Scream Bloody Gore is up there too.

My god, you're perfect for this discussion! Is there any specific reason you don't put Spiritual Healing up there with SBG and Leprosy?

[grimbold]

I was linking to current Texas metal bands. Pretty sure Dimebag's still dead.

NEVER. I actually had a dream with him in it recently...

I don't know anything about Goatwhore, but that's not really the point anyway. I'm not saying Entombed had no influence; I'm saying they didn't influence nearly as many bands as a good number of the Floridian bands did.

ok,
i misinterpreted you then, sorry

I'm not sure I see the connection. Viking Metal bands tend to be more folk-oriented than symphonic-oriented.

well yes, but i think the symphonies in legendary viking metal bands like Ensiferum are too hard to miss

I'm not at all convinced of Therion's or In Flames's influence on Folk Metal. If they did in fact have an impact, there are plenty of bands who had a much greater impact, including loads of non-metal bands that came long before either of them.


I don't doubt Therion's influence, but any influence they had on the world of Power Metal (and Symphonic Metal) was probably from albums like Theli or Vovin (i.e. the more realized symphonic albums) and not their death metal albums. And I really don't know about Dark Tranquillity having an effect on modern power metal. I never noticed any connection, but it might just be that the influence affected bands I don't listen to.

First off, i confused in flames and dark tranquility for some reason,
please excuse me

IMO Therion definitely hit folk metal bands with their symphonic side. Admittedly not all bands carry this badge (Ensiferum more than AMon Amarth) but i think the influence can not be forgoten.

And as for in flames and power metal, well, stromblad pretty much started hammerfall... so maybe it wasn't as musical an influence as it was personal

In some ways yes. I was definitely one of the smart kids in High School (less so in college since upper level math classes are just full to bursting with smart people), and I started really getting into metal during a very stressful time during my Freshman year of College, but at the same time neither the Math department nor the fancy, prestigious, ivory-tower, liberal indoctrination center that is the University of Michigan as a whole are exactly crawling with metalheads. Also, my parents are wonderful and completely supportive, so I'm pretty sure that my brother and I love metal for reasons that have nothing to do with a bad home situation, though I can see why family issues might push someone toward the genre.

this is really interesting, i really got into metal when i moved to france then once more when i started going to a french speaking school. It was at that point that i truly became "the metal kid"

Damn, tough choice... I mean, The Jester Race is one of my all-time favorite albums. Still, Florida pumped out some killer DM in the late 80s. But seriously, Human is not Death's best album! If there is one thing that would sway me towards Floridian DM, it would have to be Leprosy, although Scream Bloody Gore is up there too.

Actually, nevermind. Florida wins, hands down. I can't believe I almost forgot Morbid Angel. Sorry Melodeath, maybe if we'd included Finnish Melodeath (i.e. Amorphis) then there would have been a real contest.

morbid angel is amazing,
that is all


ok, now i'm thinking Morbid Angel VS Death...
Death wins i think.. but not by much...


also
favorite DM album is probably Clayman by In Flames because that was my first real melodeath album

unless Reign in Blood counts as DM, in which case it wins...


ALSO IMPORTANT

if any of you know of a good image that is about 1800x1600 and under 300kb that accurately reflects metal as a whole and would make a good blog back ground PLEASE hit me up with a link, my blog needs a new background pic

[Feytalist]

My understanding is that Viking metal mostly grew out of early extreme metal and somewhat out of black metal. A band like Falkenbach has no symphonic elements (the use of foghorns and ambient sounds notwithstanding).

Symphonic elements tend only to crop up in folk metal bands, and then only sparsely. Finntroll's Visor Om Slutet for example. (And maybe Ur Jordens Djup. Gryning is a great opener.) Equilibrium is a band that uses many symphonic elements, but they're arguably more a symphonic metal band with folk elements rather than the other way around.

Therion's brand of symphonic metal (after the Of Darkness... era) is more relateable to bands like Kamelot or Epica. They have very little influence on folk metal (with the possible exception of Secret of the Runes. Which is an excellent album).

[grimbold]

all right
fair enough

[Faulty]

My impression was that viking metal grew out of Bathory's Hammerheart and that Skyclad were the first folk metal band.

[eyeofsaulot]

My impression was that viking metal grew out of Bathory's Hammerheart...

That album is a constant f***ing orgasm.

Let the flames purify my soul
on its way to hall up high!

UUUUP HIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[WhamBamSam]

The ham-fistedness of the social commentary on Spiritual Healing is due to the lyrics, not the genre. There is plenty of social commentary in the albums following SH, but Chuck had gotten astronomically better as a lyricist when he wrote them. I don't see why Death Metal should be less apt to tackle social issues than any other genre. Regardless, you're right that the soapbox aspect of the album could be what was detrimental to its legacy.

You're probably right, though I do think that the moralizing in Spiritual Healing is made worse by the fact that the lyrics are literally being screamed at you.

But seriously, Human is not Death's best album! If there is one thing that would sway me towards Floridian DM, it would have to be Leprosy, although Scream Bloody Gore is up there too.

I didn't say that it was. Human was just the point where Death really turned the corner. Everything after that just got better and better. I'm going to go with Comrade and say that The Sound of Perseverance is my favorite Death album, and one of my favorite albums of all time period.