Metal Thread VI: We're So Kvlt, We Have Frostbite On Our Devil Horn Fingers

[WhamBamSam]

How is "Worship Music"? I saw it when I piked up Th1rt3en for my Deth-Head friend, and thought it'd be a nice alternative to Megadeth.

I thought it was one of the better albums of 2011. The riffs and vocals were good, and it was just a solid release overall.

[Faulty]

Okay.

*Isn't quite sure what he just read, but will simply nod and smile*

You'll find that The Kovenant were originally a Black Metal band that later became more Industrial orientated. They still have a lot of Black Metal within their music, But there's no reason why you can't mix Industrial Metal with other elements such as Black Metal. Psyclon Nine do it pretty damn well.

I guess The Kovenant are related to industrial in-so-far as they're aping Rammstein, who are Laibach for adolescents (to use a description from Laibach themselves), but really, bands like that are more like electro-industrial/aggrotech mashed with metal or rock. I could do with post-industrial melodeath, or electro-industrial melodeath or aggrotech melodeath or something, but calling it "industrial metal" is stretching it. Post-industrial genres like electro-industrial, or martial industrial, or whatever are extensions of or related to industrial historically or musically, but they're not industrial in the purest sense. Psyclon Nine do it well if you want to stretch the definition of "well", but even then it really sounds more aggrotech than anything.

And really, the term "industrial" metal is just tacked on to just about any metal band with electronic influences and it is a terrible habit and I want to throw rocks at everyone who calls The Axis of Perdition industrial black metal. Also, most "industrial" metal is just so terrible, dear GOD. Industrial metal, industrial rock, aggrotech. It's just industrial and noise for kids. ;\

New Epica album out in a few days.


...I hear your silent disinterest.

...

[Triscuitable]

I thought it was one of the better albums of 2011. The riffs and vocals were good, and it was just a solid release overall.

I am now irritated that I got Lulu instead...

[Faulty]

I had the 688th post. Thread is now Satanic and NS.

[Nameless]

I guess The Kovenant are related to industrial in-so-far as they're aping Rammstein, who are Laibach for adolescents (to use a description from Laibach themselves), but really, bands like that are more like electro-industrial/aggrotech mashed with metal or rock. I could do with post-industrial melodeath, or electro-industrial melodeath or aggrotech melodeath or something, but calling it "industrial metal" is stretching it. Post-industrial genres like electro-industrial, or martial industrial, or whatever are extensions of or related to industrial historically or musically, but they're not industrial in the purest sense. Psyclon Nine do it well if you want to stretch the definition of "well", but even then it really sounds more aggrotech than anything.

I understand and agree with what you're saying to some degree. I think the issue here is that Both Industrial and Metal are very broad genres. "Symphonic Black Metal" is easy to tag, because symphony is one thing, one specific type of sounds. Industrial is a whole other genre. So while you could say, for example, that Psyclon Nine (Who I love) are Aggrotech-y Black Metal (Or Black Metal-y Aggrotech), as they blend Aggrotech with Black Metal, calling them Industrial Metal wouldn't be wrong either, because Industrial is a genre which Aggrotech falls under. Psyclon Nine are very much Industrial, they just don't have the stereotypical Industrial Metal sound we're most familiar with. (i.e: Rammstein, Deathstars, T.3.R).

It also depends on which album you listen to, their older stuff if much more Aggrotech orientated, in fact, they started as an Aggrotech band. They've slowly been adding more and more Metal elements to each album. They're latest album, "We the Fallen", has a very strong blend of Industrial and Metal elements.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

If he got you into those bands, what did you listen to before that?

I know, I wonder that myself. I mean, I always listened to Maiden, Amon Amarth, Wintersun, In Flames, Emperor, and many others, but I was limited, mostly in that I never liked any thrash (other than Megadeth). Since I started paying attention to Autothrall I've grown a great appreciation for thrash, which led to an appreciation for early death metal, and early black metal, and oh so many other genres.

[Triscuitable]

I had the 688th post. Thread is now Satanic and NS.

My 666th post had more impact.

I kid, I kid, I just need to keep blaring Holy Wars and Dyer's Eve until ear bleeding has commenced.

[grimbold]

I am now irritated that I got Lulu instead...

that was probably the wrong choice...

[Triscuitable]

that was probably the wrong choice...

I enjoy[ed only] Junior Dad. Everything else is [terrible and unlistenable, not even] mediocre.

[toasty]

New Epica album out in a few days.


...I hear your silent disinterest.

I saw Epica live Christmas 2010. It was probably one of the greatest moments of my life.

Of course, the greatest moment of my metal life was when I saw Eluveitie and there was a Circle Pit, followed by me headbanging like a complete maniac to A Rose for Ephona (Reason why Metal is the best #203: YOU CAN HEADBANG TO BALLADY MUSIC) and then singing all the words to Inis Mona. Yeah... I probably won't be over the concert for a long time.

Annnnyways: I'm a huge fan of Epica. Like, a HUGE fan. I pretty much think they're one of the best metal bands out there at this point.

[eyeofsaulot]

Okay, I dunno if anyone else thinks this, but I think Blood Fire Death is not black metal. It's thrash, sometimes blackened thrash. It just happens to have production that is black metal-ish, and some song writing that is similar, but the riffs themselves are mostly thrash, for srs.

Come at me bros.

You wouldn't be completely out of line saying that. The closest First Wave Black Metal got to Black Metal was Blackened Thrash. And the blackenedest of the bunch was Bathory. Throughout his career, Quorthon never released a legit Black Metal album.

Because Death's first two albums are so foundational...

Human (and on) is good...

Soo... do you completely disregard the existence of Spiritual Healing?

You should read Autothrall's reviews of Death's first two albums, he explains it better than I ever could.

Those are some quality reviews. And I don't know if anyone else is gettin' this vibe, but I think that guy might be obsessive. Helpful, though. Found a really interesting German band looking through his rym lists. I'll definitely be doing some more skulking around on his rym and metallum pages.

His first and only worthwhile album is synth-pop.

You mean Pretty Hat Machine, where Reznor tries on hats of different artists and bands to see which one fits?

...I love that album anyway.

[Feytalist]

I still think it's a shame so few people seem to know Finsterforst.

Annnnyways: I'm a huge fan of Epica. Like, a HUGE fan. I pretty much think they're one of the best metal bands out there at this point.

Well. I like pretty much all their work, except a few bits of their previous album Design Your Universe. I actually like the harsh vocals. I'm sure as hell getting this new one. Just hope it's worthwhile.

You mean Pretty Hat Machine, where Reznor tries on hats of different artists and bands to see which one fits?

Really, I dunno why people seem to like his older stuff so much. Is it because it's more heavier? 'Cause I tend to like his newer stuff. He does things with white noise that no-one should be able to do. And Ghosts I-IV is great.

Also, How To Destroy Angels is amazing.

[Whoracle]

I still think it's a shame so few people seem to know Finsterforst.

Sorry, but as I told their bassist whom I went to school with: They're just boring. Technically proficient, but sadly too caught up in the whole "Let's Be EPIC" schtick.

[Feytalist]

Sorry, but as I told their bassist whom I went to school with: They're just boring. Technically proficient, but sadly too caught up in the whole "Let's Be EPIC" schtick.

But, but... accordions! :O

Thing is, I've been following them since their debut, and they've improved considerably with every release. Like you said, I'm not sure where they're going with this epic feeling; I've mentioned before that it sounds like they're trying to be like Moonsorrow. But they've got loads of talent and if Weltenkraft is anything to go by, they're gonna make some great music. I think it's worth keeping an eye on them.

[Whoracle]

Yeah, the Moonsorrow thing is why I quit the band after the guitarist wrote the first song. Edit: Wouldn't have been a good enough guitarist either way, I think, but meh...

They're going for a more progressive approach on the next album, or so I'm told. Haven't heard the pre-master yet, though.

And yes, the accordion is quite nice, but overall, the songs are too long-winded for my tastes, and by far not interesting enough for their length.

Additionally, and I know this is quite unfair: I'm a bit bitter they managed to hit it big(ish), while my band still struggles to get any airtime/gigs, even though we outsell them here in our hometown and even though we've been around longer. That's not their fault at all, they just managed to ride the folk wave in germany, whereas my band has come about 5 years too late to ride the melodeath wave, so more power to them, but I'm still bitter about it.

Discussion time: When did metal labels get so darn close-minded? You've got a record deal for your ****ty side project faster than you can blink, complete with US-tours and stuff, if you manage to already have a signed band, and the good bands that don't have members with already signed bands don't even hear back from labels after promoting themselves. Not even a short "you suck" email.

[Feytalist]

Whoa. You were in Finsterforst? That's... kinda cool. (I realise you're in another band, I just knew of them beforehand )

I tend to like long-winded repetitive compositions. I think that's why I like Falkenbach as well. I can listen to Vratyas Vakyas' droning vocals, repetitive guitars and ambient foghorns for hours on end.

I'm also interested in their new album, now. Progressive is good.


As to the label thing, that's really unfortunate. We've had the same experience over here in South Africa. The very few metal bands who have managed to break out had to go overseas to do it, simply because there is absolutely no support here. My friends, the progpower metal band Strident, is going through the same thing at the moment. Live gigs around the local circuit only gets you so far.

[Whoracle]

To say that I've been in the band is a bit strong. They were hardly a band back then. The lead guitarist is my ex-guitarist, and he as well as the bassist and the original vocalist came to me one evening and said "Let's do a finntroll-like band!" and I was "Yeah, OK, sounds good. Someone pass me the beer!".

A week later they had their first song, I wrote one riff for it, I grew disinterested in the next few songs quickly, and some days later we decided it'd be best if I made room for someone other.

And yeah, the local circuit... in germany right now you don't even get the chance to play 100km away or so. The venues expect the bands to pay for their fuel, food and place to sleep. Even playing at break even (provide us with fuel, food, non-alcoholic beverages and a floor to crash on if it's too far away to drive back home in that night) gets you scoffed at hereabouts...

It used to be different some years ago, but for the last 5 years or so it has drastically changed.

[Nameless]

HOLY SON OF A JINGLE BELL! Agalloch have confirmed that Fen will be supporting them in London gig! I EXCITE! *Borat face*
All this gig needs now is Gallowbraid and my life will be complete!

[Killer Angel]

Sorry, but as I told their bassist whom I went to school with: They're just boring. Technically proficient, but sadly too caught up in the whole "Let's Be EPIC" schtick.

mmm...
I was at school with the bassist of these guys

[grimbold]

Additionally, and I know this is quite unfair: I'm a bit bitter they managed to hit it big(ish), while my band still struggles to get any airtime/gigs, even though we outsell them here in our hometown and even though we've been around longer. That's not their fault at all, they just managed to ride the folk wave in germany, whereas my band has come about 5 years too late to ride the melodeath wave, so more power to them, but I'm still bitter about it.

Discussion time: When did metal labels get so darn close-minded? You've got a record deal for your ****ty side project faster than you can blink, complete with US-tours and stuff, if you manage to already have a signed band, and the good bands that don't have members with already signed bands don't even hear back from labels after promoting themselves. Not even a short "you suck" email.

first of all *hug*

metal labels are close minded because they need stuff that they KNOW will sell
thats why it's easier to get a side project if you're in a semi popular sgned band signed! The label KNOWS that that bands guitarist is semi popular and if they sign him they are SURE to sell a few records.

for example
I would much more likely check out Living Void, the side project of Anthony Buda guitarist of Revocation

than I would want to check out Parlamenarisk Sodomi a band of the same genre, but with no musicians whom i know and love

but don't worry Whoracle, one day you will become powerful and mighty

i'm planning on starting my own record label just for acts like yours

[Whoracle]

That's really nice, but the main problem as a label is, as always, money.

Even if the band pays for recording themselves, you need money for marketing, advertising, and maybe organizing a tour or something. If you want to do it halfway decent, you're looking at an investment of about 10k € per year and band, and that is a low estimate.

More power to you if you pull it off, I'd be glad if more people did this, and if I had the money, I'd have long gone and did this myself.

[Faulty]

I understand and agree with what you're saying to some degree. I think the issue here is that Both Industrial and Metal are very broad genres. "Symphonic Black Metal" is easy to tag, because symphony is one thing, one specific type of sounds. Industrial is a whole other genre. So while you could say, for example, that Psyclon Nine (Who I love) are Aggrotech-y Black Metal (Or Black Metal-y Aggrotech), as they blend Aggrotech with Black Metal, calling them Industrial Metal wouldn't be wrong either, because Industrial is a genre which Aggrotech falls under. Psyclon Nine are very much Industrial, they just don't have the stereotypical Industrial Metal sound we're most familiar with. (i.e: Rammstein, Deathstars, T.3.R).

It also depends on which album you listen to, their older stuff if much more Aggrotech orientated, in fact, they started as an Aggrotech band. They've slowly been adding more and more Metal elements to each album. They're latest album, "We the Fallen", has a very strong blend of Industrial and Metal elements.

The thing is, industrial has a seperate sound to that. Electro-industrial and aggrotech are post-industrial, not actually industrial. The various subgenres of metal are different modalities of the metal sound (though some get pretty far away from it, a lot of doom and black metal is really far from the original sound, not to mention genre blendy deals like sludge and grind), whereas a variety of genres grew out of but are not industrial. I wouldn't call neofolk or martial industrial industrial because, though they are historically (and in some cases sonically) related to industrial, they aren't, themselves, industrial.

You wouldn't be completely out of line saying that. The closest First Wave Black Metal got to Black Metal was Blackened Thrash. And the blackenedest of the bunch was Bathory. Throughout his career, Quorthon never released a legit Black Metal album.

Yeah, but while under the sign had a very blackened feel Under the Sign, BFD seemed to shift more towards the thrash side, albeit it with a frequently dark and/or epic sense of the genre.

Those are some quality reviews. And I don't know if anyone else is gettin' this vibe, but I think that guy might be obsessive. Helpful, though. Found a really interesting German band looking through his rym lists. I'll definitely be doing some more skulking around on his rym and metallum pages.

The number of posts on his blog makes me wonder if he does anything other than listen to music.

[Nameless]

The thing is, industrial has a seperate sound to that. Electro-industrial and aggrotech are post-industrial, not actually industrial. The various subgenres of metal are different modalities of the metal sound (though some get pretty far away from it, a lot of doom and black metal is really far from the original sound, not to mention genre blendy deals like sludge and grind), whereas a variety of genres grew out of but are not industrial. I wouldn't call neofolk or martial industrial industrial because, though they are historically (and in some cases sonically) related to industrial, they aren't, themselves, industrial.

You're sort of arguing against what I'm saying but supporting what I'm trying to say at the same time which makes it hard for me to respond to this.

Post-Indutrial subgenres such as Aggrotech are about as similar to traditional Industrial as Death Metal is to traditional Heavy Metal. Death Metal is still Metal, Aggrotech is still Industrial. Labeling it "Post-Industrial" is correct from a historical and musical point of view, so it's a useful term if you're talking about the development of Industrial or if you're talking about specific sounds within the Industrial genre. However, saying that it's Industrial is still correct from a musical point of view. You could argue that Black Metal is Post-Metal. Shall I call Psyclon Nine "Post-Industrial Post-Metal" then? Is there any point? In general, they blend Industrial elements (be it Post or any other) with Metal elements (again, be it Post or any other), so saying that they're Industrial Metal is perfectly correct from any technical point of view.
I like to call them music, but whatever.


I never hear anyone call Nachtmar, Aesthetic Perfection and Grendel "Post-Industrial" outside of in-depth conversations about the genre.

*is at an Alternative/Goth club*
Me: "Who's playing tonight?"
Person: "[/insert German band name]"
Me: "Who are they?"
Person: "Oh, they're this awesome Post-Indutrial Aggrotech Post-Black Metal band!"

Huh..

[grimbold]

The number of posts on his blog makes me wonder if he does anything other than listen to music.

fortunately my guitar saves ME from that

[Moff Chumley]

But, but... accordions! :O

For the record, this is my problem with symph/folk/viking/gimmicky metal in three handy words.

[Makensha]

For the record, this is my problem with symph/folk/viking/gimmicky metal in three handy words.

At one point, distortion was a gimmick. The only reason it isn't now is because it isn't novel anymore.

Have you ever liked a guitar tone? Did the tone increase your enjoyment of the piece? This is the same appeal of what you call "gimmick" metal. It is just a different instrument/sound they are using to increase appeal.

[Moff Chumley]

As a musician/producer/gear collector/tone geek, I'm gonna call "apples and oranges". Tone serves song, not vice versa. A well written song will still be just as awesome played on a Hello Kitty Squier strat through a five watt Marshall practice amp as it would on a 60s SG into a Sunn stack.

I think there are some incredible guitar tones in all sorts of metal. John Petrucci gets some great sounds. In the Presence of Enemies is a goddam masterclass on big-studio, unlimited budget metal guitar tones. I think it's a ridiculous, insipid song, but damn, those guitar tracks are incredible sounding.
Sleep is one of my favorite metal bands and I think their guitars sound awful. Dragonaut's still an incredible song, but it sounds like poop. I'd probably listen to it a little more often if its production was on the level of, say, Weedeater, but I already listen to it damn often.

Good tones will not make a bad song good, but they will make a good song better.

[Triscuitable]

Man, I wish I had gotten into Anthrax before any other band. They're all about Thrash. Worship Metal is an hour-and-a-half of pure thrash. It's beautiful.

[Makensha]

Tone serves song, not vice versa.

So by saying this, can I assume that you are implying that what you'd consider gimmick elements are served in songs, rather than serving the song? Example: Song serves symphony.

That confuses me. If you were specifically attacking songs that had a "gimmick" instrument as the lead, this would make sense as an argument. However, most gimmick instruments are generally background sounds, and designed to complement rather than replace the leading melody. If you were specifically attacking Finterforst's use of the accordian and similar uses, please clarify.

Another major issue I have with your response is that you focus too much on tone in a different sense. As I'm sure you know, tone fundamentally changes the sound of the instrument, because it is the sound of the instrument. What I am trying to say is using symphonic elements/accordians/whatever is similar to changing guitar tones. It serves the authors vision of the song and what it should sound like.

Good tones will not make a bad song good, but they will make a good song better.

Yes. This is what should happen with instruments in 99.99% of cases. So why is it such a turn off to you when this instrument isn't a guitar? Does it really matter whether the flute solo in Locomotive Breath is a flute or a guitar?

To put all that into what I'm really asking: Is your issue the instrument or the implementation? If implementation, What kind are you specifically against?

Edit: Random note about that Dream Theater song/Dream Theater. His vocals drive me insane. They're so... sterile.

[Moff Chumley]

When a band sounds like they're trying to cover up poor songwriting with exotic instrumentation, it rubs me the wrong way. Locomotive Breath would be a great song with or without the flute solo, just like Jimi Hendrix still woulda been an awesome guitarist without his pedals. I don't listen to Jethro Tull for Ian Anderson's flute playing and I don't listen to Jimi Hendrix because I like the way his octavia sounds; I listen to 'em because they play well written, interesting songs.

The songwriting in a lot of what I called gimmicky metal is pretty weak, and relies on exotic instrumentation to hide that. I'm not a purist and I'm not condemning experimentation, but songwriting should always come first.

I have nothing against accordions in theory. I do have a problem with accordions when they're used to distract from a songs poor songwriting; it's a song, not a showcase for shoehorning instruments into a metal format.