Metal Thread VI: We're So Kvlt, We Have Frostbite On Our Devil Horn Fingers

[cleric_of_BANJO]

However, most gimmick instruments are generally background sounds, and designed to complement rather than replace the leading melody.

Eluveitie would disagree with you. That's why I don't listen to them.

[Makensha]

So we aren't arguing over anything. Yay!

That song link is kinda related. Sorta. A little bit. Or maybe I just really like the song and wanted to link it.

Eluveitie would disagree with you. That's why I don't listen to them.

[Feytalist]

Strange that you should mention Eluveitie, a band that I think actually do this sort of thing well. If your problem was with a band like Svartsot, who simply sticks a penny whistle over the main melody, I would agree. But in cases where the non-traditional instruments enhance the songs, there should be no problem. Of course, everyone's ideas of "what works" differ, so whatever.

I'm also thinking of Haggard, a band that includes a small chamber orchestra. They include actual non-metal orchestral arrangements along with their more usual symphonic metal pieces. Their manner of mixing "folk" with metal is also rather good.

Also Finsterforst uses the accordion as a lead instrument in many songs. I'm not sure of this strengthens or undermines your opinion, heh.

[toasty]

When a band sounds like they're trying to cover up poor songwriting with exotic instrumentation, it rubs me the wrong way. Locomotive Breath would be a great song with or without the flute solo, just like Jimi Hendrix still woulda been an awesome guitarist without his pedals. I don't listen to Jethro Tull for Ian Anderson's flute playing and I don't listen to Jimi Hendrix because I like the way his octavia sounds; I listen to 'em because they play well written, interesting songs.

The songwriting in a lot of what I called gimmicky metal is pretty weak, and relies on exotic instrumentation to hide that. I'm not a purist and I'm not condemning experimentation, but songwriting should always come first.

I have nothing against accordions in theory. I do have a problem with accordions when they're used to distract from a songs poor songwriting; it's a song, not a showcase for shoehorning instruments into a metal format.

See this is funny because I would prefer generic folk bands over generic metalcore bands because at least folk bands are doing something a little different.

I dunno, maybe that's more like "I prefer folk metal." Metalcore is... its alright, and I support a few bands but I mostly prefer my melodeath/folk/power.

In other news: I think I should try and listne to more stoner metal. Any suggestions?

[Feytalist]

In other news: I think I should try and listne to more stoner metal. Any suggestions?

I've got a suggestion: don't.

[eyeofsaulot]

Yeah, but while under the sign had a very blackened feel Under the Sign, BFD seemed to shift more towards the thrash side, albeit it with a frequently dark and/or epic sense of the genre.

Well that makes sense, with it being more of a transitional album into the Viking Metal era of Bathory.

I'm also thinking of Haggard, a band that includes a small chamber orchestra. They include actual non-metal orchestral arrangements along with their more usual symphonic metal pieces. Their manner of mixing "folk" with metal is also rather good.

Haggard is a weird case. I feel like a bunch of classical musicians decided they wanted to make their own music but realized there was no market for it unless they added distorted electric guitars.

In other news: I think I should try and listne to more stoner metal. Any suggestions?

How many times do I have to push Electric Wizard and Kyuss? Hmm, okay, I'll go a different route this time. How about Church of Misery and Austin band The Sword? Though I should probably assume you've heard of the latter before.

[Makensha]

Strange that you should mention Eluveitie, a band that I think actually do this sort of thing well.

My problem with Eluveitie is what they build their music off of. Metalcore. They're generic metalcore with folk instruments playing. If you can dissuade this opinion, by all means state your case.

[grimbold]

My problem with Eluveitie is what they build their music off of. Metalcore. They're generic metalcore with folk instruments playing. If you can dissuade this opinion, by all means state your case.

well already.. metalcore bands don't have 3 vocalists and 9 musicians on stage...
i think that they just go so far beyond metalcore that they are amazing

[Faulty]

If you can't write good riffs and put them into a good song, don't play metal. If you can't strip away everything but the basic rock music components (drums/bass/guitar/vocals if not instrumental) and still have something at least decent, then you have failed at making metal and your music is a one trick pony.

Bands need to stop hiding behind synths and symphonies and electronics and folk instruments and learn to write good songs. All trends must die. Only true metal is real.

DESTROY THEIR MODERN METAL! AND BANG YOUR ****ING HEAD!

I've got a suggestion: don't.

Stoner doom > your meagre existence. This is hyperbole.

How many times do I have to push Electric Wizard and Kyuss? Hmm, okay, I'll go a different route this time. How about Church of Misery and Austin band The Sword? Though I should probably assume you've heard of the latter before.

You beat me to a Church of Misery rec. I am legitimately sad. How could you betray me?

Regardless, Orange Goblin's Trime Travelling Blues.

At Lunarville 7, down at Airlock 3
There's mountains made of crystal and a sonic sea
A psychedelic sunrise at the dawn of time
Electric moons that hum the tunes that blow your mind!

That album will make you grow a biker gang length beard instantly.

[Triscuitable]

Stoner doom > your meagre existence. This is hyperbole.

Trail of thought:

Stoner Doom Metal

Doctor Doom

Metal Head

Doctor Doom's Metal "Head"

Doctor Doom is a stoner metal fan.

[Moff Chumley]

In other news: I think I should try and listne to more stoner metal. Any suggestions?

Check out Red Fang, Fu Manchu, Nebula, Sleep, High On Fire, Acid King, and some Earth now and again.

I've got a suggestion: don't.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

well already.. metalcore bands don't have 3 vocalists and 9 musicians on stage...
i think that they just go so far beyond metalcore that they are amazing

Funny, I've heard that EXACT same thing from Slipknot fans...

And, for any guitarists, here's my suggestion. Learn an Eluveitie song on guitar. Then play it without the song in the background (as in, all you'll hear is the guitar). Then tell me it doesn't sound like metalcore.

[toasty]

My problem with Eluveitie is what they build their music off of. Metalcore. They're generic metalcore with folk instruments playing. If you can dissuade this opinion, by all means state your case.

This may be true. Its a good thing that I actually like Metalcore. And, as a point there is bad Metalcore and there is good Metalcore. Eluveitie is good metalcore.

Funny, I've heard that EXACT same thing from Slipknot fans...

Except as far as I know Slipknot just added more of the same instruments, Eluveitie actually has different instruments, pipes, violin and the hurdy-gurdy are actually pretty different.

If you can't write good riffs and put them into a good song, don't play metal. If you can't strip away everything but the basic rock music components (drums/bass/guitar/vocals if not instrumental) and still have something at least decent, then you have failed at making metal and your music is a one trick pony.

Bands need to stop hiding behind synths and symphonies and electronics and folk instruments and learn to write good songs. All trends must die. Only true metal is real.

I feel as if I need to come against the idea that good music, good metal, must be preformed on an electric guitar and with what have become the "standard" instruments of modern rock music. This kind of ideaology isn't going to do much for bands that attempt to experiment with different sounds and different styles, but still with that hard metal edge to their music. Ideas like this wouldn't have allowed Eluevietie (say what you want about them being basically metalcore) to have provided me with a very different take on Heavy Metal.

[ex cathedra]

Red Fang

I've been listening to a great deal of Murder The Mountains recently. Hank Is Dead and Wires are so good.

[Nameless]

This thread is starting to get really weird. We're calling Eluveitie Metalcore, we're using Metalcore as an insult for some reason, and we're saying that symphony and instruments that aren't guitar/bass/drums are gimmicky.
Well, firstly, Eluveitie aren't Metalcore. Even if you take away all the folk elements and focus on the guitar riffs, it isn't Metalcore. And so what if they aren't fundamentally Metal or Rock based? How does this make them inherently crap?
Secondly, you guys seriously need to stop using Metalcore (and Nu Metal for that matter) as some kind of insult or way of downgrading bands. There are a few Metalcore and Nu Metal bands that I like, but in general, I'm not much of a fan of either genre. But that's MY opinion, I don't go around slating bands just because they sound Metalcor-ish, or dismiss a band just because they sound a bit Nu-Metal-ish. Who cares? If I like the band, I like them, I couldn't care less what elements their music is made up of. I even found a Rap song I like a couple of months ago, which is a genre I generally don't like much. But guess what? I like the song! THE END IS NIGH! WOOOOOO!
Finally, what is up with people saying that folk instruments and and symphony are gimmicky? symphony has been around for hundreds of years longer then Metal and most Folk instruments have been around for hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of years longer then the electric guitar. Yes, I agree, some bands use symphony as a way of making their standard music sound more interesting. Some bands use folk instruments to attract attention, but to say that the those instruments are gimmicky is just wrong on every level. If anything, the electric guitar started off as a gimmick instrument, and look how far that's come. If Metal never experimented with different sounds, genres and instruments, the genre would never of have grown or become become as interesting, experimental or diverse as it has.[/rant]

Okay, I'm done. *reverts back to normal mode and frolics is a field*

[Killer Angel]

Finally, what is up with people saying that folk instruments and and symphony are gimmicky? symphony has been around for hundreds of years longer then Metal and most Folk instruments have been around for hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of years longer then the electric guitar.

Cannot resist...

Vikings weren't into metal at all except on the swords and stuff. Musically, I guess they only played these strange lip instruments and some bongos or whatever.

[Makensha]

Well, firstly, Eluveitie aren't Metalcore. Even if you take away all the folk elements and focus on the guitar riffs, it isn't Metalcore. And so what if they aren't fundamentally Metal or Rock based? How does this make them inherently crap?

That's what I've been hearing when I listen to most of their heavier songs.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Admittedly, that was me over-reacting (that never happens), but the guitar work is... uninspired. They don't really get many opportunities to do much over the half dozen folk instruments. Inherently crap? No, I just would rather listen to a thousand different bands.

Secondly, you guys seriously need to stop using Metalcore (and Nu Metal for that matter) as some kind of insult or way of downgrading bands.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize the "generic" part enough. That's what I have issue with. There are several metalcore bands I like.

Finally, what is up with people saying that folk instruments and and symphony are gimmicky?

That was the discussion Moff and I had. The idea of calling them gimmicky is that they're there to cover poor song writing.

[Moff Chumley]

I've been listening to a great deal of Murder The Mountains recently. Hank Is Dead and Wires are so good.

Prehistoric Dog's mah jam.
But, when they play Hank is Dead, do they have a guy with a keyboard doing the autotune? Because there is a craptonne of autotune on that song.

[Nameless]

That's what I've been hearing when I listen to most of their heavier songs.
Example 1
Example 2
Example 3

Admittedly, that was me over-reacting (that never happens), but the guitar work is... uninspired. They don't really get many opportunities to do much over the half dozen folk instruments. Inherently crap? No, I just would rather listen to a thousand different bands.

Perhaps I didn't emphasize the "generic" part enough. That's what I have issue with. There are several metalcore bands I like.

That was the discussion Moff and I had. The idea of calling them gimmicky is that they're there to cover poor song writing.

The guitar work in a lot of their songs is unoriginal, perhaps, but that's because their main focus are the folk instruments. (Not as a way of covering up bad song writing though) A lot of Folk Metal bands use folk sounds and instruments to compliment the Metal aspects and guitar riffs in their songs. Eluveitie are kind of the opposite, their guitar riffs are there to compliment their traditional and Folk instruments. They actually have more traditional instruments then they do modern ones. However, that's not to say that they don't have some pretty awesome guitar work. I actually thought the guitars in "Thousandfold" was fantastic. It's simple, but works really well and compliments the song perfectly, similarly with "Uis Elveti" and most of their other songs, but it doesn't really sound like Metalcore. Admittedly, "Meet the Enemy is a bit Blargh" though. Doesn't sound like Metalcore to me.

In other words, Eluveitie are a Folk band inspired by Metal, rather then a Metal band inspired by Folk. Which is why the Folk elements are more complex (not to mention bloody awesome, so you can't really say they're trying to cover anything up) and make a bigger part of their sound, while their guitar work is more simplistic and "un-inspired". I kind of see Eluveitie as a Metal Folk band, rather then a Folk Metal band, if that makes sense.

[Moff Chumley]

I guess my point is, there's no reason for any part of the music to be uninspired.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

The guitar work in a lot of their songs is unoriginal, perhaps, but that's because their main focus are the folk instruments. (Not as a way of covering up bad song writing though) A lot of Folk Metal bands use folk sounds and instruments to compliment the Metal aspects and guitar riffs in their songs. Eluveitie are kind of the opposite, their guitar riffs are there to compliment their traditional and Folk instruments. They actually have more traditional instruments then they do modern ones. However, that's not to say that they don't have some pretty awesome guitar work. I actually thought the guitars in "Thousandfold" was fantastic. It's simple, but works really well and compliments the song perfectly, similarly with "Uis Elveti" and most of their other songs, but it doesn't really sound like Metalcore. Admittedly, "Meet the Enemy is a bit Blargh" though. Doesn't sound like Metalcore to me.

In other words, Eluveitie are a Folk band inspired by Metal, rather then a Metal band inspired by Folk. Which is why the Folk elements are more complex (not to mention bloody awesome, so you can't really say they're trying to cover anything up) and make a bigger part of their sound, while their guitar work is more simplistic and "un-inspired". I kind of see Eluveitie as a Metal Folk band, rather then a Folk Metal band, if that makes sense.

I absolutely and completely agree. But, for the same reasons that you like them, I dont. When I listen to folk metal, the metal is the most important part. Because, let's be honest, if we're looking for straight up folk music, you can find much better musicians than Eluveitie. I guess you could say Eluveitie is more of a gimmicky folk band than a gimmicky metal band. Their gimmick is adding electric guitars and drums to their folk music. What I'm saying is that I like metal more than folk. I listen to folk bands because they're an interesting take on metal, and I'm not really into the folk aspect by itself.

[grimbold]

is it just me or is This the worlds happiest viking metal song?

[Nameless]

I absolutely and completely agree. But, for the same reasons that you like them, I dont. When I listen to folk metal, the metal is the most important part. Because, let's be honest, if we're looking for straight up folk music, you can find much better musicians than Eluveitie. I guess you could say Eluveitie is more of a gimmicky folk band than a gimmicky metal band. Their gimmick is adding electric guitars and drums to their folk music. What I'm saying is that I like metal more than folk. I listen to folk bands because they're an interesting take on metal, and I'm not really into the folk aspect by itself.

Eh, I can see where you're coming from, I suppose. But I don't see it that way. I like music, a lot of music, Metal just happens to be one of my favorite genres. Whether the song is simplistic or whether it's complex, whether it's Metal or not doesn't really bother me. If I like the sound of, if I enjoy it and it makes me feel something, then I won't dismiss it just because it isn't a complicated original Metal masterpiece. If anything, creating a good song that's simplistic is kind of hard in it's own right.

[Faulty]

I guess my point is, there's no reason for any part of the music to be uninspired.

Real talk. If you need folk to justify your metal or metal to justify your folk, you are doing it wrong. That's the difference between a gimmick and a meaningful use of different musical techniques. It's why bands like Eluveitie are a fad, and trve black metal is forever.

[toasty]

I just want to point out that Eluveitie's newest album does strike me as more metalcore than their previous works. I hold that its their best release, probably ever (though Slania and Spirit are really, really good), but I do admit that between songs like, yes, Meet the Enemy, Havoc and even Rose for Ephona they have veered towards the "let's make music that is more mainstream so it sells better," side of music. I like two of those songs (I feel that I need to be philosophically opposed to Breakdowns from a band I consider mostly Melodeath, so Havoc is out for me), so I don't really care. In fact, I think Rose for Ephona is a really, really badass song and matches Slania's Song for epicness.

I also gotta say no matter what you think of their guitars Chrigel is one of the coolest vocalists I've heard. That guy's voice is so amazing.

[Nomrom]

Real talk. If you need folk to justify your metal or metal to justify your folk, you are doing it wrong. That's the difference between a gimmick and a meaningful use of different musical techniques. It's why bands like Eluveitie are a fad, and trve black metal is forever.

I think if you need to have your music justified, you're looking at it the wrong way. I listen to what I like to hear, not what seems like the best played music. Besides, I'm sure someone could make the same sorts of arguments about your trve black metal too. Taste is music is always going to be subjective so what's the point of saying one band isn't any good?

[Faulty]

I'm just irritated by gimmick stuff because I take music too seriously. I have problems with it musically but you like what you like. I personally love the K-Pop girl group Girls' Generation and they're hardly transcendental. The trve black metal thing is tongue-in-cheek, though my tastes do boil down to 40% black metal, 40% heavy electronics, 10% extreme punk, 5% Have a Nice Life and 5% other.

[grimbold]

i JUST found out the new eluvitie album is out

:D
BEST
DAY
EVER!

[Nameless]

I'm just irritated by gimmick stuff because I take music too seriously. I have problems with it musically but you like what you like. I personally love the K-Pop girl group Girls' Generation and they're hardly transcendental. The trve black metal thing is tongue-in-cheek, though my tastes do boil down to 40% black metal, 40% heavy electronics, 10% extreme punk, 5% Have a Nice Life and 5% other.

You're not trve until you've gone through what I like to call "The Four Steps to being Kvlt".

- Firstly, you Listen to Black Metal. (Mayhem, Dimmu Borgir, Immortal etc.) The stereotypical stuff.
- Then, you start listening to good Black Metal, the underground stuff, the Kvlt stuff. You know, the bands no one really knows about unless you're in to Black Metal.
- After this stage, you discover the Atmospheric, the Progressive and the Depressive Black Metal. The kind of songs that last for at least nine and a half minutes.
- Then you reach the final step. This is where you finally grow up and become a trve kvlt pretentious douche. You listen to Post-Black Metal. the Avant Garde Black Metal, The Shoegazy stuff. The kind of music that get's labeled as Black Metal, but you're never quite sure why. But that doesn't matter, because while you sit in a dark room, listening to 20 minute songs with echoey guitars and dreamy vocals, which every so often gets interrupted by by blast beats, low quality screechy guitars and and distant screaming and hollering, you'll know (or at least feel) that you know all there is to know about Metal. Because you're listening to Post-Metal, so that makes it one step above.

[grimbold]

You're not trve until you've gone through what I like to call "The Four Steps to being Kvlt".

- Firstly, you Listen to Black Metal. (Mayhem, Dimmu Borgir, Immortal etc.) The stereotypical stuff.
- Then, you start listening to good Black Metal, the underground stuff, the Kvlt stuff. You know, the bands no one really knows about unless you're in to Black Metal.
- After this stage, you discover the Atmospheric, the Progressive and the Depressive Black Metal. The kind of songs that last for at least nine and a half minutes.
- Then you reach the final step. This is where you finally grow up and become a trve kvlt pretentious douche. You listen to Post-Black Metal. the Avant Garde Black Metal, The Shoegazy stuff. The kind of music that get's labeled as Black Metal, but you're never quite sure why. But that doesn't matter, because while you sit in a dark room, listening to 20 minute songs with echoey guitars and dreamy vocals, which every so often gets interrupted by by blast beats, low quality screechy guitars and and distant screaming and hollering, you'll know (or at least feel) that you know all there is to know about Metal. Because you're listening to Post-Metal, so that makes it one step above.

hmm
i'm on step two then... on your chart that is

for me being kvlt is more of a viking metal thing, and there is no post viking metal so yeah...