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    Default Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Meta-Sneak Attack Feats

    Because metamagic feats are broken, and comments about melee not having nice things amuses me.

    Rules for Meta-Precision feats:

    In order to use a meta-precision feat, you must declare you are using it when you first meet the qualifications for the precision damage in a given round. If you choose not to the first time, you can't use them off the rest of your attacks. The Meta-Precision feats affect all precision damage you deal in the round, then inflict a penalty on your attack rolls for the next 3 rounds.

    You may stack meta-precision feats. If you do, the penalties to your attack rolls stack as well.

    Using a meta-precision feat again before the 3 rounds is up will stack the penalties to your attack rolls, even if it is a penalty from the same feat (This specific instance ignores the inability to stack penalties from the same source)



    Empower Sneak Attack (Meta-Precision)
    Prerequisites: Precision Damage class feature
    Benefit: When you successfully strike an opponent for the first time in the round, and you meet the qualifications necessary to deliver precision damage with your attack, you may choose to use this feat. If you choose not to, you may not change your mind on any of the other attacks you make this round.

    All precision dice damage you would deal this round is increased by 1/2 of the dice. So if you would deal 3d6 Sneak Attack damage, you deal 3d6+1/2(3d6), rolled separately.

    After using this feat, you take a -2 penalty to your attack rolls for the next 3 rounds.


    Maximize Sneak Attack (Meta-Precision)
    Prerequisite: Precision Damage class feature
    Benefit: When you use this feat, your precision damage dice are all treated as if you rolled the maximum result. (This does not affect the extra dice you have to roll for the Empower Sneak Attack feat)

    After using this feat, you take a -3 penalty to your attack rolls for the next 3 rounds.


    Heighten Sneak Attack (Meta-Precision)
    Prerequisites: Precision Damage class feature
    Benefit: When you use this feat, you may increase the DC for any saving throws allowed by all Ambush feats and poison/ravages you are using this round by an amount of your choice, up to the number of precision damage dice you are able to deal. (So up to +10 for a 19th level rogue)

    After using this feat, you take an attack penalty of -X to your attack rolls for the next 3 rounds, where X is equal to the total boost you gave to your DC.

    Reach Sneak Attack (Meta-Precision)
    Prerequisites: Precision Damage class feature
    Benefit: When you use this feat, you are able to deliver your ranged precision damage from any distance for the rest of the round.

    After using this feat, you take a -1 penalty to your attack rolls for the next 3 rounds.


    Invisible Sneak Attack (Meta-Precision)
    Prerequisites: Precision Damage class feature
    Benefit: You may only choose to use this feat if you deliver precision damage while invisible, or while using the Hide skill.

    If you are invisible, your opponent receives no benefits of the Blind-Fight feat for the rest of the round if he has it, and delivering your precision damage does not cause the invisibility effect to end this round, if it would.

    If you are using the Hide skill, you suffer no penalty to your Hide check after making your precision attack, and your opponent does not automatically know which direction your ammunition came from, if you were using a ranged attack. (He is allowed a single Spot check, DC your attack roll, for each precision attack you make this round)

    After using this feat, you take a -1 penalty to your attack rolls for the next 3 rounds.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-12-05 at 08:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    I... wouldn't use these.

    OK, I might use the one that grants you a boost to Poison DCs and Ambush Feat DCs (why not Death Attack's DC?), and maybe the Invisible Sneak Attack feat (for Assassins only, pretty much); otherwise, you are giving up most of a Rogue's damage.

    For AT LEAST a round, the Rogue will be pretty darn useless in battle; you are dealing, what, 1d6+ECL+Strength Modifier damage an attack? Sure, you are getting a pretty large damage boost (at 20th level, a pure Rogue using Maximize SA and Craven would deal +80 damage an attack. If they used Empower Sneak Attack, they would deal, on average, +52.5 damage.)

    So, in other words, you are dealing level appropriate damage for about one round a combat; I'm sorry, but that means that you are functionally useless the rest of that combat.

    I would suggest changing the mechanic to being something closer to the Constant Metamagic feats idea that SweetRein had; that you'd apply the metamagic SA feats to ANY sneak attack you make... but are limited to applying to a maximum number of SA dice, based off of your Rogue-Stabby Level (basically, your levels in every class that grants precision damage and 1/2 your levels in other classes).

    So a 20th level Rogue could use Maximize Sneak Attack on all their attacks that round, but only have them apply to 8d6 out of their 10d6 SA (for example), or have Empower Sneak Attack Empower only 8d6 out of their 10d6 SA (for another example.)
    Last edited by Amechra; 2011-12-03 at 05:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    I would use these if I was acting as a UMD Rogue or a Swift Hunter Ranger using a bow. The Swift Hunter would use Reach Sneak Attack, and the UMD Rogue would use Invisible Sneak Attack and Maximize and probably Empower together, so as to act as an Assassin. Walk up, kill something, retreat until my precision damage is usable again, rinse and repeat.
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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    First of all, no one takes the 20th level of rogue.

    Secondly, I'm glad you think that Heighten and Invisible are nice feats.

    Third, I would use the Maximize Sneak Attack feat for one-round assassination attempts (like, not in combat, but during the first round of combat, to finish the strongest enemy off in one attack) or against creatures with an enormous amount of damage reduction.

    Against a pit fiend, for instance, my pair of +3 kukris would only deal 45 damage per hit, on average (Assuming 10 Str and Craven is allowed. If not, only 25 damage). Meanwhile, if I Maximized it, they would deal 70 damage per hit, bringing it down after just 4 strikes.

    Maximize Sneak Attack is also useful for a final strike at the end of a charge. If you only get one attack, but your opponent only needs one strong attack to finish it off, you can charge and kill it with your Maximized damage, as opposed to what a pure rogue can do now, which is charge, stab it once, and get mauled next turn.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    By allowing you to boost sneak attacks in exchange for not using it later on, it merely exacerbates the rocket tag problem (assuming you agree it's a problem). A better approach would be to trade damage dice of the sneak attack, and possibly take an attack roll penalty as well (since after all metamagic involves an effective penalty to the save DC) for various abilities (e.g. deprive the enemy of DEX bonus to AC when sneak attacking via flanking, or use sneak attack from 60', or maximize all sneak attack dice).

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    I would rather just take Improved Sneak Attack multiple times, as it's simpler, roughly as effective, & doesn't require a cool-down period. But that's just me.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    By allowing you to boost sneak attacks in exchange for not using it later on, it merely exacerbates the rocket tag problem (assuming you agree it's a problem). A better approach would be to trade damage dice of the sneak attack, and possibly take an attack roll penalty as well (since after all metamagic involves an effective penalty to the save DC) for various abilities (e.g. deprive the enemy of DEX bonus to AC when sneak attacking via flanking, or use sneak attack from 60', or maximize all sneak attack dice).
    Trading Sneak Attack dice for various abilities already exists. They're called Ambush Feats. Not what I want.

    And I don't really care about the rocket tag problem, but since it exists, might as well help melee get in on it.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    I have to say: I would never use any of these. A sneak attackless Rogue is a useless Rogue once combat starts. My suggested fix: a penalty to the roll to hit. So instead of not being able to use sneak attack for three rounds on a maximized sneak attack, you instead take a -3 to hit. Inelegant, but still better than no sneak attack.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    I have to say: I would never use any of these. A sneak attackless Rogue is a useless Rogue once combat starts. My suggested fix: a penalty to the roll to hit. So instead of not being able to use sneak attack for three rounds on a maximized sneak attack, you instead take a -3 to hit. Inelegant, but still better than no sneak attack.
    Okay. There you go.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil View Post
    I have to say: I would never use any of these. A sneak attackless Rogue is a useless Rogue once combat starts. My suggested fix: a penalty to the roll to hit. So instead of not being able to use sneak attack for three rounds on a maximized sneak attack, you instead take a -3 to hit. Inelegant, but still better than no sneak attack.
    That is a better solution all around.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    I like them. I am confused as to why you added Feat into the last (Meat Precision) tag(On invisible Sneak attack)

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Hmm...these are definitely interesting. I don't know about balance because I rarely play rogues. I don't like that it hurts you for the rest of the encounter though (and it stacks fairly quickly). Maybe make it last for a specific number of rounds based on how strong each feat is.
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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by TravelLog View Post
    Hmm...these are definitely interesting. I don't know about balance because I rarely play rogues. I don't like that it hurts you for the rest of the encounter though (and it stacks fairly quickly). Maybe make it last for a specific number of rounds based on how strong each feat is.
    Edit: Alright, I made them all last 3 rounds.
    Last edited by NeoSeraphi; 2011-12-04 at 01:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Why not take a leaf out of the Sudden Metamagic Feats designer's book- and make them each usable two or three times per day?
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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Why not take a leaf out of the Sudden Metamagic Feats designer's book- and make them each usable two or three times per day?
    Because there are more than two or three encounters per day. That would be worse than this.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    More than three encounters in a day? Will somebody tell my DMs this? any of them? please?

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
    Edit: Alright, I made them all last 3 rounds.
    That's... not what he suggested.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyftir View Post
    More than three encounters in a day? Will somebody tell my DMs this? any of them? please?
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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta Kai View Post
    That's... not what he suggested.
    I know it's not. But since I made the penalties based on the strength of the feat, I figured they should all have the same duration, to discourage stacking the stronger ones with the weaker ones.

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Out of curiosity, does a Warlock's Eldritch Blast count as precision damage?

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    Default Re: Oh My God! My Kidneys! Why Would You Stab Me In My Kidneys? (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Out of curiosity, does a Warlock's Eldritch Blast count as precision damage?
    No, unless the warlock is also deliver sneak attack. The current types of precision damage in official WotC content are Sneak Attack, Skirmish, Sudden Strike, and Precision. At least, those are the only ones I know of. And technically Precision doesn't count, since it uses d8s instead of d6s...guess I'll change the prerequisites of the feats.

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