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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Cheese, if you don't like the writing style, the characters or the plots, why do you buy the books? There's a whole universe of lore, and the Cain stuff is on the grey line of Canon. Just read the Gaunt's Ghosts stuff and be happy.
    Further to this, it's mentioned several times that Cain is a unreliable narrator who's dictating his own personal memoirs not intended for public consumption.
    Is it any wonder that he's downplaying both his heroic acts and vile ones, trying to be truthful but not too truthful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Personally, I enjoy the Cain series. Mostly because of the perspective from which it is written. The notations at the bottom of every other page are a nice touch.
    Especially when Amberly gets defensive.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Cheese, if you don't like the writing style, the characters or the plots, why do you buy the books?
    Because I did like the first four. And the sixth was okay. People don't seem to realise the exact point that you make. I do like some of the Cain novels. But, like Wraith pointed out, just because I may like the books (or other people can claim to like the books), it doesn't mean that the faults aren't there.

    It just aggravates me whenever somebody wants to get into 40K Fluff (what's the Universe all about), and there's a litany of CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, all caps, and sometimes even bolded. When in actual fact it's incredibly poorly written (for the most part), and after the fourth book (Death or Glory) they get stale and you can spot the formula*. And when it comes to "What is 40K?" you can do far, far better than Cain.

    Atlas Infernal, for example. I can't recommend that book highly enough. Yes, it is dark. But there are a few bright spots too.

    * I read a bunch of Redwall novels last year, and yes, they are all the same. But they don't get stale and the formula doesn't get old until about book 8 or 9.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It just aggravates me whenever somebody wants to get into 40K Fluff (what's the Universe all about), and there's a litany of CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, all caps, and sometimes even bolded. When in actual fact it's incredibly poorly written (for the most part), and after the fourth book (Death or Glory) they get stale and you can spot the formula*. And when it comes to "What is 40K?" you can do far, far better than Cain.
    So what would you recommend for someone who's just heard about the universe and wants to get more into it?

    Take for example the actor Mark Strong, who voiced Captain Titus in the recent Space Marine game. He never heard of 40K prior to the role and was fascinated with the richness of the lore and the fact that it's been going on for over 20 years completely under the radar for him.

    Where would you suggest that he start?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    The Horus Heresy series is probably the most important in terms of 40k literature. Without knowing the history that they put in place, everything else is just Random Sci-Fi #2836 and might as well be self-contained.

    Having said that, I'm something of a hypocrite because I haven't read any of them yet. I intend to rectify this when the Omnibus' are available....

    I personally quite like some of the Necromunda novels, although I admit that is mostly because I adore Necromunda rather than the generic tales it has produced. They're an interesting alternative of life for 'little people' in the 41st millenium though, if you ever wonder what happens to people who aren't Space Marines or Inquisitors.

    Speaking of Inquisitors, the Ravenor and Eisenhorn series are what you should be reading instead of Ciaphas Cain, if you really want to know how the Inquisition works and what sort of lengths the Imperium will go to in order to protect itself beyond "throw Guardsmen at it".

    Oh, and Fifteen Hours.
    Everyone should read Fifteen Hours, if only so that afterwards they can safely know that this is as bad as it gets.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Id add Rebel Winter too, even though its a bit cliche.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    So what would you recommend for someone who's just heard about the universe and wants to get more into it?
    An old post, check the date stamp.

    But, those being actual good books, are still good a year and a half after the post.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    An old post, check the date stamp.

    But, those being actual good books, are still good a year and a half after the post.
    I agree that the Heresy is a vitally critical event in the 40K lore, but asking a person who's never read anything about 40K before to suddenly jump into a 9 book series about a single event, is a bit much to ask.
    In addition, because they don't know the history, the books may not be as dark as you think, since knowledge of the Heresy is colouring your thoughts and impressions of the book.

    I think your suggestion has missed the point slightly - I wasn't asking about the best books, I was asking the best place to start.
    Cutting it down to small selection, could you pick a few books that would give a new person a brief overview of the 40K universe?

    For example, Fifteen Hours, as suggested by Wraith, would be an ideal introduction to the IG; Space Marine (yes I know it's pretty much non-canon these days, but I'm open to suggestions) for the Astartes, one book of the Ravenor/Eisenhorn/Inquisitor War series for the Inquisition and finally something from the Horus Heresy (Horus Rising maybe?) to complete a primer's guide to the Imperium and hence 40K in general.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I think your suggestion has missed the point slightly - I wasn't asking about the best books, I was asking the best place to start.
    Cutting it down to small selection, could you pick a few books that would give a new person a brief overview of the 40K universe?
    Isn't that what the BBB is for? Admittedly, some people have the little one from AoBR instead.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    I actually give the first Cain omnibus to people who've never heard of the setting. It's more of a mild introduction. You get someone to relate with, a shallow introduction to some of the elements of the imperium, and a descriptive overview of some of the enemies. (Orks are big, breed fast and hard to kill, Tyrannids are vicious, attack in swarms, rip tanks apart. Necrons are totally alien, unrelenting and scary.)

    If the first thing you give to someone is knee-deep in Grimdark, it WILL be more true to the setting, but you're more likely to lose their intrest.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Isn't that what the BBB is for? Admittedly, some people have the little one from AoBR instead.
    Googling those acronyms, the BBB is the 'Big Black Book' aka Warhammer 40k 3rd ED? That dates back to 1998 apparently, so it's both out of date and out of print.

    AoBR is the Assault on Black Reach boxed set? A quick look on Amazon shows it's going for over 50UKP, considerably more expensive than 3 or 4 books.

    I know that the box sets usually have some fluff in the back (I got into 40K via the fluff book included with the original Space Hulk box set), but for someone starting out, telling them to go get a miniatures game when all they want is some background reading is probably going to result in a 'thanks, but no thanks'.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Googling those acronyms, the BBB is the 'Big Black Book' aka Warhammer 40k 3rd ED? That dates back to 1998 apparently, so it's both out of date and out of print.

    AoBR is the Assault on Black Reach boxed set? A quick look on Amazon shows it's going for over 50UKP, considerably more expensive than 3 or 4 books.
    BBB is the main rules book, the one from the AoBR is the same rulebook, but without all the fluff. Squark was probably aiming for BBB being the best for starters in WH world, but most people these days have the rulebook from AoBR, so it's not so common.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Googling those acronyms, the BBB is the 'Big Black Book' aka Warhammer 40k 3rd ED?
    The BBB is the book. It's black and it's big. It's still that way in 5th. Basically the BBB/BRB is whatever the current book is at the time. In Fantasy, it's the BRB, where the 'R' stands for 'Red' or 'Rule'.

    Where to start in 40K?
    I don't recommend the Horus Heresy books. It actually requires a lot of foreknowledge about who and what everything is. The only one you can really 'get started' with are the first three, and they're generally considered the worst of the lot (those or the Dark Angels' ones).

    I can, however, recommend the coffee table book; The Collected Visions. Ultimately an overview and summary of all the important events of the Horus Heresy, complete with pictures. But it is pricey.

    Shira Calpurnia/Enforcer. Arguably some of the most solid writing in the range and tells you a lot about how the Imperium works on the day-to-day scale. If you are under the impression that the Imperium isn't the most dominant part of the setting...I don't know what you're reading.

    Atlas Infernal. It's got the Inquisition, it's got Space Marines (and a few Grey Knights), it's got Eldar (and Harlequins) and it's got Chaos Marines that aren't stupid. It actually crams a lot of lore into one book.

    If you're more interested in the Chaos-side of things, the Word Bearers Omnibus has finally been printed. And, as I've mentioned a few times in this thread, if it's an Omnibus, it's worth getting. Again, this is one of the rare occasions where Chaos aren't depicted as complete morons. Then again, the Word Bearers are one of the Legions with a complete loaf of bread. Anthony Reynolds is another very good writer.

    Honestly, there aren't many things that get you 'started' in 40K Fluff. Its 15 years worth of fluff (the 10 years or so before that has nearly all been retconned). There really isn't 'one book to rule them all'. Unless you count the One Rulebook. That is one book with rules. Its got a bunch of stuff.

    For the most part, pick an aspect you like, grab the Codex and the novel for that Codex (I think nearly all the armies have their own race-specific novel now, and if they don't, they're probably the main antagonists for another novel) and go from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    If the first thing you give to someone is knee-deep in Grimdark, it WILL be more true to the setting, but you're more likely to lose their intrest.
    First books I read were Space Marine and Inquisition War. And here I am, still, 15 years later loving it. Inquisition War is probably the most GrimDarkiest books around and still remains one of my favourites. GrimDark makes people lose interest? Since when?
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-02-20 at 06:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    For the most part, pick an aspect you like, grab the Codex and the novel for that Codex (I think nearly all the armies have their own race-specific novel now, and if they don't, they're probably the main antagonists for another novel) and go from there.
    Since you mentioned Codices, I immediately thought that any aspiring 40k-er should try to find the Second Edition version of their chosen army, if they can possibly get their hands on one.

    You're right in saying that quite a bit of them have been surpassed by the new history - particularly in details about the newer units and recent IC Campaigns - but looking at my collection now I still think that 1) they still contain all the basic mythology of each race's history and 2) they are considerably richer in flavour text, art and supposedly trivial details than the current editions. Certainly, far far more than 3rd and 4th edition Codices.

    Sucks to be Necrons, Tau or Grey Knights in this case, sadly, but for everyone else they're beautifully crafted sources of information from an age before additional novels and audio books.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    First books I read were Space Marine and Inquisition War. And here I am, still, 15 years later loving it. Inquisition War is probably the most GrimDarkiest books around and still remains one of my favourites. GrimDark makes people lose interest? Since when?
    I'd argue it's because those two aren't Grimdark, but actually some of the few truely gothic 40k novels.
    At their core Space Marine and the Inquisition War are love stories - Lex for his brothers, and Jaq for Meh'lindi. Those emotional ties are what drives the characters and the tradgedy of the situation (Lex doesn't realise until too late, Jaq's obsession destroys those around him).

    If you take something like 15 Hours there's no emotional connection or reason to the events. Arguably that's why 15 Hours works as it is relentlessly nihilistic, but something without that narative direction just comes of as depressing or needlessly bleak.
    That, I think, is partly why the Horus Heresy series has been so successful - though completely over the top the feelings of betrayal and rejection by a loved one / father figure / brother / mentor is a fairly universal feeling we can all relate to.

    The Ultramarines series is quite a good start as Uriel is a very relatable guy for a supersoldier, and there's not too much backstory involved.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    At their core Space Marine and the Inquisition War are love stories
    ...I hate you so much right now. You've ruined those books forever. Since I've always thought they were about failure and loss. You've come so far and done so much...And you still lost.

    IMO if Eisenhorn had died at the end of his narrative, that would've cemented the fact that everything he did was for nothing. And that's kind of how Inquisition War plays out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    The Ultramarines series is quite a good start as Uriel is a very relatable guy for a supersoldier, and there's not too much backstory involved.
    Captain Titus and Ventris are like, the same guy. Also, Zorg has a point with the Ultramarines books. Like some, I was into the hobby when Nightbringer was first printed, as such, I learned about Ultramarines before Ultramarines-hate was core to the hobby (hint; What were the first books I read? How do you think that influenced me and the Chapter I play the most?). As opposed to say, now, whenever I ask someone to read Nightbringer the answer is "Ultramarines? Ew. No."

    ...Also, Know No Fear is out and people can't shut up about it. So I assume it's good. Since I haven't read it, but I did need to ask, no it's not just lol!Ultramarines. The Word Bearers do actually put up a fight and wreck stuff.

    Also Dreadnoughts develop anxiety disorders. lol.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...I hate you so much right now. You've ruined those books forever. Since I've always thought they were about failure and loss. You've come so far and done so much...And you still lost.
    Well, that is certainly still true - but looking back another layer shows what was driving them to attempt to do those things (and what they lost).


    IMO if Eisenhorn had died at the end of his narrative, that would've cemented the fact that everything he did was for nothing. And that's kind of how Inquisition War plays out.
    If that happened we wouldn't be getting the third trilogy then, would we?



    (hint; What were the first books I read? How do you think that influenced me and the Chapter I play the most?)
    Indeed - my first 40k story was Deathwing, from the expanison of the same name. I think its very human, falible marines (the main character even implies he wishes he'd never become a marine at one point) heavily influenced me.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Indeed - my first 40k story was Deathwing, from the expanison of the same name. I think its very human, falible marines (the main character even implies he wishes he'd never become a marine at one point) heavily influenced me.
    I think as well, the main character asks the marine who recruited him (who is now encased inside a dreadnaut), whether he had any regrets, to which the dreadnaut gave a wistful statement about the past without answering the question.

    Also, the Cloudrunner's Last Stand solo campaign was tough.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    It just aggravates me whenever somebody wants to get into 40K Fluff (what's the Universe all about), and there's a litany of CIAPHAS CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, all caps, and sometimes even bolded. When in actual fact it's incredibly poorly written (for the most part), and after the fourth book (Death or Glory) they get stale and you can spot the formula*.
    True- but those first three books (or the omnibus, which is cheaper on a book for book basis than three books, and includes two short stories as well) seem like a good starting point.

    Plenty of room for someone to decide they don't want to read any more after the first three.

    And compared to other 40K trilogies, it's got a pretty eclectic set of enemies. Renegade humans, Genestealers, Orks, Necrons, Chaos, all in the first three. Compare to the Gaunts Ghosts trilogy or the Grey Knights trilogy, both of which are almost entirely Imperium vs Chaos.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Indeed - my first 40k story was Deathwing, from the expanison of the same name. I think its very human, falible marines (the main character even implies he wishes he'd never become a marine at one point) heavily influenced me.
    I suddenly feel very late to the party - my first 40k book was Deus Sanguinius, which isn't anything like as old....

    I recommend that people do read the Blood Angels Trilogy, although you should only do it to see what the Blood Angels and their successors are like as people and what tragedy the Black Rage really is. As a work of literature, I found it flowery and even a little rambling at times.

    If you love the Blod Angels, you'll love it. If not, it's educational but.... meh.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I recommend that people do read the Blood Angels Trilogy, although you should only do it to see what the Blood Angels and their successors are like as people and what tragedy the Black Rage really is. As a work of literature, I found it flowery and even a little rambling at times.

    If you love the Blod Angels, you'll love it. If not, it's educational but.... meh.
    I've read the first omnibus (first two books) and I agree the plot is cliched and obvious.

    I still enjoyed it though since I've been a bit of Blood Angels fan since getting into 40K via the original Space Hulk box set.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I suddenly feel very late to the party - my first 40k book was Deus Sanguinius, which isn't anything like as old....
    I think I read Chaos Child very early on (it was in the library).

    The first two novels I bought were Into The Maelstrom (short story compilation) and Eye of Terror,

    (Which is a novel, multiple plot threads, one of which was about a down-on-his-luck Rogue Trader, one about a Segmentum Commander seeking to invade the Eye of Terror after finding out there's a big Chaos fleet being built there, one about a Dark Angel who went into suspended animation after being lost in space during the Horus Heresy, and one about the Chaos Greater Daemon building the fleet.)
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    The *First* 40K book I actually read was about the Iron Warriors, and they *Won* against Imperial Fists. Won't give the title on account of spoiling the plot there, but it was a very good book.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Does anyone here have a copy of Deathwatch rpg's rules for making spehss mehreen chapters?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Yes. blahblahblah
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Is it in pdf or readable-in-browser form?
    Or can you make it so?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    No. And if you're asking if I'll pirate it for you, also no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    So I recently picked up the first Gaunt's Ghosts omnibus, currently part way through the first novel and... woah.

    Very different in tone and general depiction of the IG compared to the nearly happy-go-lucky view in the Cain books (I say nearly, but there are traces of 40K Grimdark, mentioned in a casual off hand manner).

    The IG as depicted by Abnett reminds me very much of turn of the Napoleonic era military politics, especially with the jockeying of position and regimental rivalry descending into near guerilla warfare at times. This isn't even getting started on the 40K specific elements such as inquisitors or Chaos taint.

    No wonder the Imperial Bureaucracy takes so long to mobilise IG forces - they're too busy backstabbing each other.

    I would have thought that with the more tangible nature of the Emperor would have helped focus the Imperium into combating its enemies, but I guess that's going against the theme of the setting.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    No wonder the Imperial Bureaucracy takes so long to mobilise IG forces - they're too busy backstabbing each other.
    And the bureaucrazy is ALSO backstabbing itself.

    I would have thought that with the more tangible nature of the Emperor would have helped focus the Imperium into combating its enemies, but I guess that's going against the theme of the setting.
    I guess it depends. On the one hand, this absolutely happens. New regiments are raised daily, and shipped across the galaxy to fight where they are needed. It seems this can be a very fast process at times, and since you'll likely travel a few month to your destination, much of the training can be done en route. On the other hand, there are plenty real-world examples of schism and arguments over faith. Maybe these are the same people who become NOD commanders in Command&Conquer?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    And the bureaucrazy is ALSO backstabbing itself.
    Intentional typo?

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    It seems this can be a very fast process at times, and since you'll likely travel a few month to your destination, much of the training can be done en route. On the other hand, there are plenty real-world examples of schism and arguments over faith. Maybe these are the same people who become NOD commanders in Command&Conquer?
    I'm not so sure about the basic training since it requires far more resources and space that would be available aboard a ship, even one as cavernous as a 40K Navy/transport ship (Astartes battle barges or similar vessels seem to be an exception, judging from Imperial Fist descriptions in Space Marine).

    Since IG are better trained and more disciplined than PDF troops, I'm assuming a higher level of training: going by US army requirements, it can last from 16 to 62 weeks depending on specialisation, although I suspect that most IG regiments are basic infantry rather than specialists, so they'd have shorter training periods.

    Arguments over faith by IG commanders seem a bit odd to be in the 40K universe, especially with an active Church Militant (the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Soritas) and the near religious awe that the Astartes seem to inspire in the common Imperium soldiers and citizens.

    Question - in Dawn of War 2, the Blood Ravens had issues interacting with a planetary governor, who subsequently turned out to be a heretical traitor. Leaving the betrayal aside, would an otherwise loyal governor be so difficult and recalcitrant when dealing with the Astartes, or would they generally defer to them?

    I believe that space marines are technically autonomous to the Administratum, but for practical, political and tactical reasons, they're often willing to co-operate, or at least listen to its requests?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I would have thought that with the more tangible nature of the Emperor would have helped focus the Imperium into combating its enemies, but I guess that's going against the theme of the setting.
    That's one of the things that takes a while to grasp about the Imperium - the Emperor is not tangible to the general populous.

    The Cult of the Emperor was only formally established in M32, over a thousand years after the Emperor's 'death', and the organisation that eventually went on to become the Ecclesiarchy only appeared in M36. That's 5,000 years of interpretation, reinterpretation and misinformation based on true events that are at best confusing and have since been heavily censored by multiple organisations such as the Inquisition.

    To the average Guardsman, the Emperor reigns from Holy Terra in the exact same way that we would say that Jesus Christ rules from Highest Heaven.... Except that the Emperor has had 5 times as long for his story to get mixed up.
    He definitely existed at some point in the past and occasionally sends cryptic messages to his faithful followers, but everything else is virtually mythical even to most of those highly placed within the Church.

    This why there are deviations from the main Imperial Cult - never very far under threat of accusations of Heresy, admittedly, but there are enough to cause plenty of confusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni
    I'm not so sure about the basic training since it requires far more resources and space that would be available aboard a ship, even one as cavernous as a 40K Navy/transport ship (Astartes battle barges or similar vessels seem to be an exception, judging from Imperial Fist descriptions in Space Marine).
    Imperial Transport ships are akin to flying cities in size, able to carry millions of passengers. 15 Hours deliberately shows an extended scene were a newly founded Regiment is given basic training - admittedly with hilariously silly equipment to do so. It is pointed out that the new Regiment is supposed to be heading to a very, very simple assignment and as such probably won't need extensive training, however, and it's suggested that other ships have much better training facilities.

    Since IG are better trained and more disciplined than PDF troops, I'm assuming a higher level of training.
    It varies wildly from unit to unit but generally speaking, if the IG are the US Army then PDF are the National Guard. The example that I gave in 15 Hours shows the new Regiment receiving.... I think it's 4 months training, because the Regiment is founded, marched onto a Transport Ship and all of their training is done en route to their first Warzone. There's nothing to suggest that this is atypical of newly founded Regiments - they get as much training as they can before they pretty much have to learn 'on the job'.

    PDF units, on the other hand, vary even more greatly from being professional armies maintained by the Planetary Governer, to purely volunteer forces conscripted on a whim without any formal training whatsoever.

    I believe that space marines are technically autonomous to the Administratum, but for practical, political and tactical reasons, they're often willing to co-operate, or at least listen to its requests?
    Space Marines answer to no one other than the High Lords of Terra and (usually) the Inquisition. They do not need permission of a Planetary Governer to do anything at all, least of all make planetfall and fight xenos.

    The Planetary Governer, by the same token, also answers to no one as he has absolute control over his planet so long as he continues to pay his Imperial Tithe and remain faithful to the Imperial Cult.

    Generally speaking, a Governer can refuse the requests of a Space Marine force, but he would have to be VERY stupid to do so lest he attract the wrath of the Inquisition ("So tell us again why you though it okay to let Orks swarm across your planet and not let them be purged?") and quite frankly the Marines could ignore him without penalty, provided they were acting on a military campaign and not - for example - helping themselves to fuel stores or 'kidnapping' new recruits.

    It's one of those strange contradictions where neither side specifically outranks the other enough to be giving orders, so mostly they stay polite and phrase everything as a request by reason of "If you do what I ask you to do, you won't have to refuse when I tell you to do it."

    Same goes for Space Marines vs. Imperial Guard. On paper, IG Generals outranks Space Marines Captain, but neither side are allowed to give each other direct orders. It's an incredibly foolish or brazen General/Captain who does not cooperate with a fellow Imperial Force in terms of tactics, but they do exist and those that do are generally regarded with suspicion.

    There are always exceptions, of course - Grey Knights ignore pretty much every rank below that of Grand Master or High Lord, whereas Planetary Governers in the Ultima Segmentum probably find themseles appointed only with the consent of Marneus Calgar and as such are likely to give Ultramarines more leeway than others.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2012-02-25 at 10:42 AM.
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