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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    On a "local" level it might work, because there are usually a few ressource/factory/agri worlds in each sector, and in-sector travel is usually done outside of the warp.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    While all of the above is true, it's also been suggested in some of the codices that the Emperor being tethered to his barely-alive body is the only thing preventing him from being reborn and/or going and beating the tar out of the Chaos gods. So, while his death would certainly mean anarchy in the short term, it may actually be beneficial for the Imperium in the long run.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight13 View Post
    While all of the above is true, it's also been suggested in some of the codices that the Emperor being tethered to his barely-alive body is the only thing preventing him from being reborn and/or going and beating the tar out of the Chaos gods.
    He couldn't even beat the tar out of the Chaos Gods when he was alive the first time. Lorgar and the surviving Chaos Primarchs are more powerful than they ever were when the Emperor was alive, it's just that due to Plot ex Machina, they don't do a whole lot.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Well, they are still not strong enough to prevent Draco (that GK guy) from soloing the last Chaos primarch that crossed his path.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well, they are still not strong enough to prevent Draco (that GK guy) from soloing the last Chaos primarch that crossed his path.
    I tend to ignore any and all fluff related to Draigo, simply for the sake of sanity.

    It's goddamn ridiculous.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear
    He couldn't even beat the tar out of the Chaos Gods when he was alive the first time. Lorgar and the surviving Chaos Primarchs are more powerful than they ever were when the Emperor was alive, it's just that due to Plot ex Machina, they don't do a whole lot.
    True, but this is a setting where "gods" are powered by belief and, at least in the case of the Chaos gods, emotion. Due to the widespread, fanatical belief of the Imperial Cult, the Emperor is much more powerful now than he was when he was alive, that's why he can do stuff like empowering Living Saints. However, because he's still chained to his body, he's limited in what he can do.

    If I'm not mistaken, it's canon fact that the Imperium of Man is by far the largest faction in the setting, which is why they can fight all the other factions simultaneously without getting steamrolled. Thus, the Emperor is very likely stronger than any one of the Chaos gods and may be stronger than all four of them together.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight13 View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, it's canon fact that the Imperium of Man is by far the largest faction in the setting, which is why they can fight all the other factions simultaneously without getting steamrolled. Thus, the Emperor is very likely stronger than any one of the Chaos gods and may be stronger than all four of them together.
    I thought the orks were the largest faction, just that getting them organised and pointed in the same direction (never mind the right one) is virtually an impossible task.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    The Imperium would fall into anarchy pretty soon, because it relies on interstellar transports for many things, ranging from the least problem (actually ATTACKING folks) to more important ones, like supplies of industrial goods, weapons and other stuff and of course, the impossibility to send aid to struggling systems. Also, stuff like a galaxy-wide government just wouldn't work anymore, but since warp-travel might be possible for short distances, like they did before the Emperor, I'd say systems would stabilize somewhere at the subsector level, each region jealously guarding what ressources it has. But divided, the enemies of the Imperium (everybody else) would likely pick the isolated worlds off one by one.

    So all in all: they're screwed.
    These feral and primitive worlds, why doesn't the imperium bring their tech up to date? Surely in the grimdark future of the 41st millenium, there is a super fertilizer made from dead tyranids and orks? Also, couldn't theplanets just evacuate the planet and go somewhere else until whatever is invading is done with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Agreed. You have the industrial and hive worlds starving to death because they're almost fully supplied by the agri-worlds, who also regress back technologically as they don't have anybody supplying them with replacement tech or spare parts.
    Bacause in the grimdark future of the 41st millenium, nobody knows how to grow potatoes anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight13 View Post
    While all of the above is true, it's also been suggested in some of the codices that the Emperor being tethered to his barely-alive body is the only thing preventing him from being reborn and/or going and beating the tar out of the Chaos gods. So, while his death would certainly mean anarchy in the short term, it may actually be beneficial for the Imperium in the long run.
    So if/when the emperor stops being alive? He could wipe out the chaos gods in afist fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    He couldn't even beat the tar out of the Chaos Gods when he was alive the first time. Lorgar and the surviving Chaos Primarchs are more powerful than they ever were when the Emperor was alive, it's just that due to Plot ex Machina, they don't do a whole lot.
    I don't think the primarchs actually do anything anymore, they are in the immaterium and are too powerful to be summoned, but too weak to make a difference if the chaos gods fight each other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight13 View Post
    True, but this is a setting where "gods" are powered by belief and, at least in the case of the Chaos gods, emotion. Due to the widespread, fanatical belief of the Imperial Cult, the Emperor is much more powerful now than he was when he was alive, that's why he can do stuff like empowering Living Saints. However, because he's still chained to his body, he's limited in what he can do.

    If I'm not mistaken, it's canon fact that the Imperium of Man is by far the largest faction in the setting, which is why they can fight all the other factions simultaneously without getting steamrolled. Thus, the Emperor is very likely stronger than any one of the Chaos gods and may be stronger than all four of them together.
    I thought the tyranids were a larger faction because the planets they eat make more tyranids to eat more planets?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I thought the orks were the largest faction, just that getting them organised and pointed in the same direction (never mind the right one) is virtually an impossible task.
    I think organisation can be said for all factions in 40K , heres is why for more "lawful" factions:
    Eldar: They are live in small colonies spread out and would never fight out of worry that they would be wiped out.
    Tau: Everytime a leader dies every tau fighting has a 50/50 chance of running, or take on the enemy in a fist fight.
    Humanity: In the Grimdark future of the 41st millenium, the fate of humanity rests on the shoulders of men with bad eyesight doing paperwork, EG: They only realized a planet was rebelling when they discovered that a planets taxes were 8,000 years overdue.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    These feral and primitive worlds, why doesn't the imperium bring their tech up to date? Surely in the grimdark future of the 41st millenium, there is a super fertilizer made from dead tyranids and orks? Also, couldn't theplanets just evacuate the planet and go somewhere else until whatever is invading is done with it?
    No.

    (1) Technology is feared and largely based on superstition in WH40K. Innovation is minimal and likely to get you declared a heretic. The dissemination of technology is tightly controlled by Mars which is one reason why Feral Worlds aren't uplifted willy-nilly.

    (2) Interstellar travel is chancy and reliant on the Emperor's continued (relative) good health. If he dies all the way, the Beacon goes out and Warp travel becomes much more hazardous. Evacuating a besieged planet, resources aside, is unlikely to go well if the Emperor is dead.

    (3) Many Hive Worlds are actually Death Worlds with arcologies. Growing anything outside the Hives will be difficult, dangerous or both. The sort of agriculture that is possible (e.g. fungus harvesting) is not nearly productive enough to feed the sheer number of people that live in a single Hive, let alone all the Hives on an entire planet.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil
    So if/when the emperor stops being alive? He could wipe out the chaos gods in afist fight?
    Well maybe. Thanks to all that belief, the Emperor is sort of a Warp god now and the whole Starchild thing suggests that when he finally dies he'll be reborn in the Warp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni
    I thought the orks were the largest faction, just that getting them organised and pointed in the same direction (never mind the right one) is virtually an impossible task.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil
    I thought the tyranids were a larger faction because the planets they eat make more tyranids to eat more planets?
    Perhaps I should have said "the Imperium is bigger than the Chaos faction". Since Tyranids don't believe in anything and don't have individual minds anyway and if Gork and Mork actually exist, they don't seem to do anything.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    If I'm not mistaken, it's canon fact that the Imperium of Man is by far the largest faction in the setting, which is why they can fight all the other factions simultaneously without getting steamrolled. Thus, the Emperor is very likely stronger than any one of the Chaos gods and may be stronger than all four of them together.
    Highly unlikely, even if you actualy belive the emperor is a real god empowered by the belief of his faithful, then his source of power is limited to that part of humanity who truely belive.

    The chaos gods on the other hand draw power from basic parts of emotion, making their domain the entire galaxy.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Highly unlikely, even if you actualy belive the emperor is a real god empowered by the belief of his faithful, then his source of power is limited to that part of humanity who truely belive.

    The chaos gods on the other hand draw power from basic parts of emotion, making their domain the entire galaxy.
    Which is a ridiculously huge portion of humanity, actually. There are entire planets devoted to nothing but shrines and cathedrals, and families who spend generations saving up to afford a trip to Terra for one of their descendants, who can then spend a generation or more waiting so that one of their descendants can see the Imperial Palace. People like Ciaphas Cain (HERO OF THE IMPERIUM) who lip-service their worship are supposed to be quite unusual, and even Chaos Cults aren't nearly as common as some of the fiction would make them out to be.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    These feral and primitive worlds, why doesn't the imperium bring their tech up to date? Surely in the grimdark future of the 41st millenium, there is a super fertilizer made from dead tyranids and orks? Also, couldn't theplanets just evacuate the planet and go somewhere else until whatever is invading is done with it?
    You're talking about evacuating a WHOLE plante, with billions upon billions of inhabitants if it's a hive world. Even with a vers efficient bureaucracy and compliant citizens, that's going to take forever. And then the transport ships are sitting ducks in orbit, and otherwise, the invaders just follow the ships and now enjoy conquering a planet without orbital fortresses and such.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    Bacause in the grimdark future of the 41st millenium, nobody knows how to grow potatoes anymore?
    As Oracle Hunter pointed out, it's not a matter of growing potatoes, it's growing enough potatoes.

    Hive Primus on Necromunda for example, houses several billion people and although it's the largest hive on the planet, it's one of several thousand hives on the planet.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    As Oracle Hunter pointed out, it's not a matter of growing potatoes, it's growing enough potatoes.

    Hive Primus on Necromunda for example, houses several billion people and although it's the largest hive on the planet, it's one of several thousand hives on the planet.
    This holds even on the outer edges of the Imperium - in Dawn of War 2 the given population for Meridian is 32 billion (just because its a convenient example which we have numbers for.) And not only that, but it is 90% of the Imperial population of the subsector. Even if the planet wasn't a mix of dead and urban land, there's no way to support that much population on one planet. No way to import food, the people are going to be starving, rioting, looting and related activities in short order, especially because those activities are happening some in normal times in the lower hives due to the screwed up bureaucracy and an apathetic aristocracy.

    As for the rest of the subsector, when communication and transport across the system dies the other 3-3.5 billion imperials scattered across the rest of the planet are probably going to find themselves in trouble in short order. Meridian also accounted for over 90% of the production in the subsector, so there's going to be minimal industry on the outer planets, and they'll also have no access to Imperial reinforcements or replacement parts. Add in the fact that there's orks, tyranids and heretics running around the subsector as is (and, honestly, there's probably orks and heretics running around most subsectors, just replace 'tyranids' with 'dark eldar', 'necron', or whatever you want) and all of them will still be on the same level of warp travel they were before, isolated colonies and outposts will just get demolished.
    Last edited by Ailurus; 2012-05-22 at 06:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    By the way, would the lack of the Astronomican hinder astrotelepathy in any way?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Highly unlikely, even if you actualy belive the emperor is a real god empowered by the belief of his faithful, then his source of power is limited to that part of humanity who truely belive.

    The chaos gods on the other hand draw power from basic parts of emotion, making their domain the entire galaxy.
    The exact effect of how the nature of belief works is... iffy. Gork and Mork have an enormous following, but they don't appear to do anything, for example.


    Also, irregardless of drawing power off basic emotions, it is worth pointing out that the entirety of humanity putting their fingers in their ears and yelling, "CHAOS DOESN'T EXIST! LA LA LA! NO SUCH THING AS DEMONS OR GODS" was enough to put the chaos gods into panic mode. So humanity's belief does have an awful lot of power.

    Ultimately, though, sources are conflicting and vague enough that we really can't be sure what the long term effects of the emperor's death would be. At one point, the fall of the imperium would have brought about the rise of a 5th Chaos god, for instance (similar to the Eldar bring about Slaanesh).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Also, irregardless of drawing power off basic emotions, it is worth pointing out that the entirety of humanity putting their fingers in their ears and yelling, "CHAOS DOESN'T EXIST! LA LA LA! NO SUCH THING AS DEMONS OR GODS" was enough to put the chaos gods into panic mode. So humanity's belief does have an awful lot of power.
    When did that happen?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    When did that happen?
    It didn't actually finish happening, but that was one of the parts of the Emperor's plan just prior to the Horus Heresy.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Which is a ridiculously huge portion of humanity, actually. There are entire planets devoted to nothing but shrines and cathedrals, and families who spend generations saving up to afford a trip to Terra for one of their descendants, who can then spend a generation or more waiting so that one of their descendants can see the Imperial Palace. People like Ciaphas Cain (HERO OF THE IMPERIUM) who lip-service their worship are supposed to be quite unusual, and even Chaos Cults aren't nearly as common as some of the fiction would make them out to be.
    Yesterday 04:37 PM
    Really?

    Its been my ímpression from what i have read that the % of true believers isnt that high, it seems like most people are just going though the motions.

    And i was not talking about chaos cults, but just regular people feeling things like despair or anger or lust.

    It didn't actually finish happening, but that was one of the parts of the Emperor's plan just prior to the Horus Heresy.
    Yeah, and because everything allways goes as planned for the emperor, then we can be sure it would have worked
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Really?

    Its been my ímpression from what i have read that the % of true believers isnt that high, it seems like most people are just going though the motions.
    I'm going to tread carefully and say that with the level of affirmation that the Imperial cult has, the percentage of true believers is rather high. As an experiment, flick through a typical fluff image of an imperial city, then replace every sign of the aquilla with a cross or other religious symbol of your choice. Frightening, isn't it?

    As somebody noted, people like Cain who only pay lip service to the Emperor, are not the norm.

    Whether a person believes or not, generally doesn't have an affect on their behaviour though - they can grumble about taxes the Administorum levies, the lateness of the last food shipment, how the quotas are too high and even make half hearted appearances in the temple during service day, wishing they were still in bed. However, when they say they praise the Empreror, they still believe.

    This is aside from obvious signs of his divine majesty, such as the Soroitas Living Saints, the Astronomicon and his angels of death, the Astartes.
    As Arthur C. Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" (or in this case, divine providence), thus while we know that Marines are made from numerous amounts of implants, psycho-conditioning, heavy indoctrination and intense training, the common folk don't and just see these elite warriors and protectors who believe in the divinity of the Emperor unquestionably.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    And i was not talking about chaos cults, but just regular people feeling things like despair or anger or lust.
    Sure they do, they're only human. You can't ask people to stop being human - even the Astartes are guilty of one or two of those emotions.

    It's a bit of a big step from being angry at your shift manager to directly serving Khorne though.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-05-23 at 04:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    By the way, would the lack of the Astronomican hinder astrotelepathy in any way?
    Nope (Only Navigators, with their Warp Sight, can see the Astronomican at all), but the lack of an Emperor to be Soulbound with would cause the Astropaths to all go insane, die or be possessed by Daemons within a month of the Big E dying, assuming that he didn't go Star Child. In short, FTL comms become impossible for the Imperium shortly after the Emperor dies and combined with Warp travel becoming much, much slower and less reliable (basically, they'd need to go with the Tau method of making a series of very short jumps then reorienting), long-distance Imperial command and supply chains would all be very irrevocably cut. As was said earlier, the best the Imperium could hope for is individual Sectors banding together into small, easily overrun splinter-empires.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Re: The Emperor not beating the tar out of the Chaos Gods the first time round.

    He basically did.

    Horus was their vessel, and he didn't just beat him: He removed his very soul from existence, in both the Aether and the Material.

    Did he use Holocaust? Probably.

    And, yeah, the big E probably knew he'd become some sort of weird God type thing if people believed in him...

    However... he did not want this to happen, at least not immediately.

    If he dies and goes Star Child, that may have some negative consequences that he knew of, that we are not yet aware of. Creating a fifth Chaos God, utterly different from the Emperor seems likely.

    Still...

    Cypher is the man. I'd vote for him. He'll save the Imperium!

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    As somebody noted, people like Cain who only pay lip service to the Emperor, are not the norm.
    Heck, even Cain seems to believe in the Emperor-as-deity, he's just not as devout as some and doesn't believe that the Emperor has time to personally watch over him (or if he does he has a sick sense of humor).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Its been my ímpression from what i have read that the % of true believers isnt that high, it seems like most people are just going though the motions.
    Depends what you've read. Space Marines and Cain don't exactly paint the best picture of the everyday Imperium.

    Enforcer says pretty much everyone believes in the Emperor.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Depends what you've read. Space Marines and Cain don't exactly paint the best picture of the everyday Imperium.

    Enforcer says pretty much everyone believes in the Emperor.
    Yeah, you can't go wrong with thinking 'medieval European mindset' for the vast, vast, vast majority of people in the Imperium.

    The religious beliefs of Space Marines, generally, are irrelevant. In an Imperium of trillions, there are only about a million Space Marines.
    Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-05-23 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    The religious beliefs of Space Marines, generally, are irrelevant. In an Imperium of trillions, there are only about a million Space Marines.
    The highest figure for the Imperium's population I've seen was in Deathwatch when describing the number of psykers:

    "amongst an empire of a billion billion they number in their millions".

    That's a rather high figure though- and would require a much larger Imperium than the million world's figure usually given (a billion or more worlds is occasionally given).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight13 View Post
    Heck, even Cain seems to believe in the Emperor-as-deity, he's just not as devout as some and doesn't believe that the Emperor has time to personally watch over him (or if he does he has a sick sense of humor).
    Cain's been a soldier for a long time and veterans of all stripes tend to develop a very black sense of humour.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    The religious beliefs of Space Marines, generally, are irrelevant. In an Imperium of trillions, there are only about a million Space Marines.
    I wouldn't say their beliefs were irrelevant if they are the visible manifest of the Will of the Emperor to the general populace.
    I don't think I can really offer examples without triggering board rules though.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-05-23 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    Cain's been a soldier for a long time and veterans of all stripes tend to develop a very black sense of humour.



    I wouldn't say their beliefs were irrelevant if they are the visible manifest of the Will of the Emperor to the general populace.
    I don't think I can really offer examples without triggering board rules though.
    I thought that the emperor couldn't do much manifesting of power due to being deep deep underground where he can't see anything.

    And I think I know a surefire way of a huge amount of the imperium losing faith in the emperor:
    Show the universe what the Emperor looks like, I was surprised at what he really looked like when I first saw it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I wouldn't say their beliefs were irrelevant if they are the visible manifest of the Will of the Emperor to the general populace.
    I don't think I can really offer examples without triggering board rules though.
    That isn't the Marines beliefs, that's the general populace beliefs when they see the Marines.

    The public see the Blood Angels as actual divine beings sent to rescue them. Dante knows better, but keeps his mouth shut, since he knows this belief is helpful.

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