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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Have you actually readed about WW II? Becauze the bad guys in there weren't just "exterminate all who oppose you". The bad guys in there would exterminate whoever they tought wasn't fit to live, regardless of them being helping or not, and by the end of the war were sending children against tanks while feeding cyanid pills to their own families. That's the scale of horror the IoM deals on. At least in 1984 you get to survive if you play your part.
    Without getting into politics, what the Nazis did is unspeakably evil because they had exactly no reason for doing this (however much they thought they HAD). The Imperium HAS a reason. In a real world situation, hostages during a bank robbery might not be more inclined to rob banks themselves. But in the world of W40K, if Chaos touches you, no matter how little you want it, you're potentially spoiled. Now 9 of 10 people might not be, but the 10th might be, and he'll in turn doom hundred other lives. That's the Imperium for you. They aren't how they are because they flipped a coin that either had utopian democracy or oppressive regime on it. Sure, a lot of innocents get caught in such purges, but consider this, for example: one untrained, undetected psyker can potentially doom a whole world, not only destroying it, but also handing it to Chaos on a silver plate.

    Much of Krieg quickly fell to the rebels except for Hive Ferrograd which came under the command of the now infamous Colonel Jurten of the Krieg 83rd Imperial Guard. Under strict orders to not let Krieg fall but with the promise that no fleet on the scale that was needed to invade a planet was available, Jurten decided that Krieg would either belong to the Emperor or to no one.
    Except that the Administratum has exactly nothing to do with training officers. That's the Imperial Guard. And in his way, Jurten isn't that different to several real world militaries on both sides of the Iron Curtain, who would have torn the world asunder just for the sake of being the last one standing. Imperial culture and religion certainly helped shape Jurten's decision, but they are far from the main reasons. The Emperor was just Jurten's reason, in another universe, it might be honor, country, or the Floraxian way. Or, perhaps, the Great Good?


    So remind me, who developed the system where the departments that are suposed to offer suport answer to no one? Managing a million worlds may be hard, but managing a thousand chapters and Mars should be relatively simple. That's Adnministratum incopetence at its finest, pure and simple.
    Again, real world examples aplenty, and as far as I know, the Emperor and the Administratum are entirely fictional. And would YOU tell the superhumans with the best guns in the Imperium, who are known for their incredible pride, that they are now supposed to listen to you? Not even the Ultramarins, one of the most reasonably chapters, would go along with this. Same goes for the Priesthood of Mars. You don't tell the guys who are responsible for all the tech and science something they won't agree with. That's not Adminsitratum incompetence (I bet they would LOVE to control the SM and AM) but a whole mess of ye olde human emotions backed by the power to enforce them.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Isnt this moving into the territory of epilectic tree's now?
    Are there even any actualy evidence on the tau being made by anybody?
    Oh, definitely. Like I said, even Codex Tau barely says anything at all about where the Dawnblade came from, the idea that it is Eldar is purely conjecture based on what came in Xenology.

    Xenology is, as far as I know, the only canon source where it is strongly implied that Ethereals are beings who are heavily genetically modified, and states directly that the jewel implanted in their forehead is "significantly similar" to an Eldar Soulstone.
    That, and Codex: Tau's story about how the Ethereals came out of nowhere and united the primitive planet Tau being somewhat fitting for a "taken over by technologically superior enemy infiltrators", is pretty much all we have.

    It is, however, a book that predates 5th Edition and a number of 4th Edition Codices - there's a strong argument that it probably isn't entirely canon anymore. And even if it is, like you say, it creates a lot more new questions than it ever answered

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio
    That would be the Eldar's fault, not the Tau.
    "The Tau are really nice people, apart from someone spending the last 6,000 years moulding them into sociopathic communist-esque Totalierat". Well, that's alright then.

    The Imperium would probably be a pretty nice place, without Ork and Chaos to worry about for the last 10,000 years. Whose fault it is has no baring on how good or bad a faction currently is.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    The problem is, that the Tau are even more decenterlized then the Imperium is, their's no reason to believe that the action of one sept somehow makes a systematic thing, or even orders from the center.

    Given the decenterlized nature, it is far from totalitarian, since due to slow communication orders from the center take a long time to get there and then be implemented.
    Last edited by Talkkno; 2011-12-06 at 07:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Talkkno View Post
    The problem is, that the Tau are even more decenterlized then the Imperium is, their's no reason to believe that the action of one sept somehow makes a systematic thing, or even orders from the center.

    Given the decenterlized nature, it is far from totalitarian, since due to slow communication orders from the center take a long time to get there and then be implemented.
    Totalitarian/=/Large state. Totalitarianism is at it's most effective really, at a small level, where a single person can reasonably control the entire operation (or, in the Tau's case, a couple dozen-couple hundred Ethreals on a planet). So what the Tau really are is a bunch of allied totalitarian realms with a very similar culture.
    Last edited by Squark; 2011-12-06 at 07:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Totalitarian/=/Large state. Totalitarianism is at it's most effective really, at a small level, where a single person can reasonably control the entire operation (or, in the Tau's case, a couple dozen-couple hundred Ethreals on a planet). So what the Tau really are is a bunch of allied totalitarian realms with a very similar culture.
    The problem is that the Tau don't exactly agree with each other100% of the time (See Kill-Team for a really prominent example of Tau disagreement resvoled in rather interesting manner ) on everything, so there's no reason to believe those incidents mentioned before are a systematic thing going on, to suggest otherwise is to say their is a improbable amount of coordination going on between septs that are only loosely beholden to each other and the center.

    It is far more likely to be true to say those are isolated to a single sept and are blown out of proportion, as noted in Black Crusade, the books are written from the Imperium POV, and thus have in interest in making their enemies look bad, hardly the most objective source.

    EDIT: I also find applying human standards of behavior to aliens who think completely different way from humans to kind of disingenuous.
    Last edited by Talkkno; 2011-12-06 at 07:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Talkkno View Post
    The problem is that the Tau don't exactly agree with each other100% of the time (See Kill-Team for a really prominent example of Tau disagreement resvoled in rather interesting manner ) on everything, so there's no reason to believe those incidents mentioned before are a systematic thing going on, to suggest otherwise is to say their is a improbable amount of coordination going on between septs that are only loosely beholden to each other and the center.

    It is far more likely to be true to say those are isolated to a single sept and are blown out of proportion, as noted in Black Crusade, the books are written from the Imperium POV, and thus have in interest in making their enemies look bad, hardly the most objective source.

    EDIT: I also find applying human standards of behavior to aliens who think completely different way from humans to kind of disingenuous.
    True. I don't claim to be an expert on the Tau (In fact, I claim to be the opposite ) I was just pointing out that just because the Tau don't have a centralized government doesn't mean their citizenry are not living in a totalitarian society.

    Also, aliens with non-human thought patterns are kind of an ambiguous territory. We won't really know how to deal with them until we find some and interact with them a good bit (If we find any at all). One reason they show up in Science Fiction so much; People wonder what they'd be like.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Chapter specific wargear:
    Thank you so very, very mcuh. You've made my day.

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    [I]Gilded Boltgun (Ultramarines)- not depicted but described as "dazzling"
    The Bolter in the Command Squad box? Chuck some Sterngun mods to it (Scope, ammo cartridge from Storm Bolters) and done.

    "Raven Pattern" Shotgun (Raven Guard)- has a "long black muzzle" attached reducing flash and sound
    The Shadow in the Sky (Raven Guard) "A long, curved power sword like the talon of a bird"
    Shotgun? Maybe I'll just cut up a Sniper Rifle to make a Stalker Plattern (see Telion) Sterngun.

    I assume I'm to make the Raven Guard model out of Mk5/6 armour?

    Surtur's Breath (Salamanders) heavier, more bulky flamer
    Salamanders Mantle (Salamanders) "scaled cloak"
    Promethean's Blessing (Salamanders) "inverse heat sink, which uses the excess power generated by the motor of a chain blade of the charge of a power weapon to project flame along its edge"
    ...And here I was not wanting to be 'obvious' by giving the Salamander a Flamer/Meltagun.
    Salamander's Mantle I've done a couple of times. Using Dark Elf Corsairs. The conversion's on the 'net.
    A sword...On fire. I didn't think the 40K-verse would go for something that tacky. Especially not on the Imperial side. Ah well, if it's a canon thing...

    I'll probably make a Mk.4 Marine, or possibly use one of the Legion of the Damned with the fire all over their armour.

    Chogoris Lightning Blade (White Scars)- "dazzling silver power sword with a jagged blade crafted in the shape of a lightning bolt"
    Duelling Tulwar (White Scars) "short, curved blade" - not a powerfield weapon
    Power Lance (White Scars) - see depictions of White Scars bikers
    Chieftain Trophy Rack (White Scars)
    Sounds like the sword in the Grey Knights trilogy. I was going to do one of those anyway.
    Easy.
    Power Lance? Does it say anything about how you have to be mounted to use it? Ah well, I need to make a Kor'Sarro on Bike model anyway, and what better way than to have him be a White Scar anyway.
    ...I'll check my Dark Eldar bits, see if I've got anything there.

    Digital Housing (Iron Hands) digital weapon in cybernetic limb, can be laser, melta or flamer
    Recoil Baffling (Iron Hands) "compensation servos and suspensor cushions" for semi-auto and full auto weapons
    Cool. Is it clip-size 1 like a Combi-Weapon? Might use one of the Sanguinary Guard guns to represent it.
    I knew it. The Iron Hand is the Heavy, not the Engineer.

    Rune Staff (Space Wolves) - see Space Wolves codex
    The Magnir Runes (Space Wolves) "small stones inscribed with the signature runes of a Space Wolf Rune Priest"
    Totem of Subetai (White Scars) "long staff adorned with a beast skull and a knot of coarse hair"
    Psykers only, I assume?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    I'm sorry but this:

    I didn't think the 40K-verse would go for something that tacky. Especially not on the Imperial side. Ah well, if it's a canon thing...
    Made me laugh. When has the Empire ever not been totally over the top? The best example I can think of right now is the Sisters' Church Organ Tank.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Made me laugh. When has the Empire ever not been totally over the top? The best example I can think of right now is the Sisters' Church Organ Tank.
    Wouldn't 'walking Cathedral' be a better example? :P

    Though, recent art seems to move away from that dumbness...
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    That too. And stained glass windows in space.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Made me laugh. When has the Empire ever not been totally over the top?
    I'm just thinking about the dev team making stuff up, poring over all the Salamanders' stuff they can find going all the way back to 3rd (seriously, FFG have done their research in a lot of areas, some stuff is lifted directly out of old Codecies not even in print anymore), looking at models (He'Stan) and thinking up cool Salamander wargear.

    Dev 1; Well, we have to have a super-flamer.
    Dev 2; Can't forget Salamander's Mantle. Wolves get their pelts, Salamanders have their cool coats.
    Dev 1; What else can we have? He'Stan has a cool spear. Remember Xavier? He had a Hammer, Salamanders love blacksmithing and He'Stan makes Hammers even better. We haven't done a relic hammer yet, so wouldn't it be cool to-
    Dev 2; Wait. Whoawhoawhoa. I've got it. A sword. That's on fire!
    Dev 1; BRILLIANT!
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2011-12-07 at 06:48 AM.
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    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    But you've got to admit, it fits both the Salamanders theme and the general "purge with fire" vibe that's going on in the Imperium.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    It would be more salamander-like to have their special weapon be the pimped up hammer they used during their smiting apprenticeship. Swords are cornered by the more knight-like chapters.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    From the description it sounds more like a sword-shaped flamethrower with a chainsword inside than an actual sword.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by LansXero View Post
    From the description it sounds more like a sword-shaped flamethrower with a chainsword inside than an actual sword.
    Really? To me it reads more like a flame generator attached to a chain weapon or a power weapon.

    On a different note, does anyone know if Tyranid Lictors are launched into space to recon planets? This was how it happened in one old comic (1990s) but Lexicanum only mentions their role as battlefield scouts.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

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    I assume I'm to make the Raven Guard model out of Mk5/6 armour?
    Not strictly required, but it may fit.

    A sword...On fire. I didn't think the 40K-verse would go for something that tacky. Especially not on the Imperial side. Ah well, if it's a canon thing...
    It's basically a distraction- but a chance of setting the enemy on fire, as per the Flame special ability, can be handy.

    Power Lance? Does it say anything about how you have to be mounted to use it? Ah well, I need to make a Kor'Sarro on Bike model anyway, and what better way than to have him be a White Scar anyway.
    No- but its better when mounted- extra damage.

    Cool. Is it clip-size 1 like a Combi-Weapon? Might use one of the Sanguinary Guard guns to represent it.
    It's exactly as the Digital Weapon in Deathwatch (page 153)


    Psykers only, I assume?
    Yes.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2011-12-07 at 02:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky S View Post
    I liked to imagine a powerfist as tool that is used to either pimp slap people or high five them.
    Why do it with a power fist when you can do it with Dreadnought CCWs:
    "Klank"

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Without getting into politics, what the Nazis did is unspeakably evil because they had exactly no reason for doing this (however much they thought they HAD). The Imperium HAS a reason. In a real world situation, hostages during a bank robbery might not be more inclined to rob banks themselves. But in the world of W40K, if Chaos touches you, no matter how little you want it, you're potentially spoiled. Now 9 of 10 people might not be, but the 10th might be, and he'll in turn doom hundred other lives. That's the Imperium for you. They aren't how they are because they flipped a coin that either had utopian democracy or oppressive regime on it. Sure, a lot of innocents get caught in such purges, but consider this, for example: one untrained, undetected psyker can potentially doom a whole world, not only destroying it, but also handing it to Chaos on a silver plate.
    Then the Imperium leadership are a bunch of hypocrites, because Inquisitors and Grey Knights mess directly with the foulest chaos stuff all the time and get away with it.

    I don't care how they do it, the IoM clearly have safe measures against chaos, yet they'll rather burn billions of innocents rather than apply whatever methods they use to keep inquisitors and grey knights safe.

    And again, the primarchs were stolen and half-corrupted by chaos, and the Emperor goes and puts them on the top possible leadership positions. That's Stupid Evil for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Except that the Administratum has exactly nothing to do with training officers. That's the Imperial Guard. And in his way, Jurten isn't that different to several real world militaries on both sides of the Iron Curtain, who would have torn the world asunder just for the sake of being the last one standing.
    Yet, they didn't, and that's the key diference. Most people probably had evil toughts now and then. It's the ones that actually give in to their evil toughts that we need to be worried about.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Imperial culture and religion certainly helped shape Jurten's decision, but they are far from the main reasons. The Emperor was just Jurten's reason, in another universe, it might be honor, country, or the Floraxian way. Or, perhaps, the Great Good?
    Nice try, but Jurten was pretty explicit in showing his decision was solely FOR THE EMPEROR!

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Again, real world examples aplenty,
    By all means, point me to any elite militaries with the top tech that only answer to themselves, or the massive research facilities that don't need to comply with the national interests and standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    and as far as I know, the Emperor and the Administratum are entirely fictional. And would YOU tell the superhumans with the best guns in the Imperium, who are known for their incredible pride, that they are now supposed to listen to you?
    Who's supplying them the best guns and armor and know-how?
    Whose planets are they geting their raw resources and recruits again?
    Who keeps the corpse-candle in Terra that's vital for their navigation running?
    Who supplies the IG waves to do the brunt of the fighting so the SM can then strike the main points?

    Every chapter needs massive logistics to be maintained. Now I know they usually have their own forges yada yada, but they only exist because the IoM invested massive resources in the creation of each chapter. Those forges and battle barges didn't spawn out of pure faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Not even the Ultramarins, one of the most reasonably chapters, would go along with this. Same goes for the Priesthood of Mars. You don't tell the guys who are responsible for all the tech and science something they won't agree with.
    Actually, we do all the time. Large projects needs obscene amounts of money/resources. Said obscene amounts of money/resources need to come from big institutions. And chances they'll ask you for things you don't like are pretty high, and you can't really bite the hand that feeds you. Unless you're in 40K, that runs in the rule of GRIMDARKNESS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    The Imperium would probably be a pretty nice place, without Ork and Chaos to worry about for the last 10,000 years.
    Again, the IoM has plenty of civil wars/catastrophes whitout the need of chaos and orks buting in. From officers like Jurgen to corrupt governors and power struggles, things could actualy turn much worst in the IoM if there's not a big common enemy to unite against.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2011-12-07 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Then the Imperium leadership are a bunch of hypocrites, because Inquisitors and Grey Knights mess directly with the foulest chaos stuff all the time and get away with it.

    I don't care how they do it, the IoM clearly have safe measures against chaos, yet they'll rather burn billions of innocents rather than apply whatever methods they use to keep inquisitors and grey knights safe.
    That's like saying because we have bomb technicians, everybody can defuse a bomb. First, Grey Knights undergo extensive amoutns of mindconditioning, to the point where EVERYONE of them is a powerful psyker, and, if I remember correctly, their very BONES are inscribed with protective wards. Have fun doing that to billions of people. Second, many Inquisitors DO fall to Chaos, so even within the Inquisition, it's not like you can just check out the Necroteuch at you local library. Inquisitors get away with it because, like GKs, they trained a life to withstand Chaos. And even then, it doesn't alway work. I suspect you know very little about Chaos?

    Yet, they didn't, and that's the key diference. Most people probably had evil toughts now and then. It's the ones that actually give in to their evil toughts that we need to be worried about.
    Sure thing, but the fact is, that's not a fault of the IoM. That's human nature. It's not terribly important whether you actually do it or not, it's important that you are a man who can plan multiple strategies where the best outcome is that only a few millions die, and that you would be willing to execute that plan, should push come to shove.

    Nice try, but Jurten was pretty explicit in showing his decision was solely FOR THE EMPEROR!
    Yes, because he was an Imperial officer. What you didn't seem to get was that the same scenario could happen anywhere, even on this world. You just replace Emperor with anything you like.

    By all means, point me to any elite militaries with the top tech that only answer to themselves, or the massive research facilities that don't need to comply with the national interests and standards.
    Nuclear scientists predicted a small chance that testing the first nuclear bomb could ignite the atmosphere. Guess who tested it anyway? It might not be as extreme as in the 41. millenium, but those things happen everyday in the real world.

    Whose planets are they geting their raw resources and recruits again?
    Their own planets. Which they own.

    Who's supplying them the best guns and armor and know-how?
    That would either be they, themselves, or the AdMech. They even have their own fleet, though they aren't allowed to keep a truly extensive navy.

    Who supplies the IG waves to do the brunt of the fighting so the SM can then strike the main points?
    Often enough, the SMs do the job on their own.

    Who keeps the corpse-candle in Terra that's vital for their navigation running?
    Sure, shut down everything that keeps us alive. I'm sure THAT will teach them. Oh, wait...

    Every chapter needs massive logistics to be maintained. Now I know they usually have their own forges yada yada, but they only exist because the IoM invested massive resources in the creation of each chapter. Those forges and battle barges didn't spawn out of pure faith.
    Nope, they were build and maintained by the chapters themselves.

    Sure, the Imperium could absolutely wipe out the Space Marines, and could deny them all mobility etc. Only by doing so, they turn the SM against them, while at the same time robbing themselves of one of their best weapons. And the SM know this very well. The way it is now is most beneficial for both. After all, Space Marines DO fight for the Imperium, and they ARE very effective at that. They're just harder to control.

    Actually, we do all the time. Large projects needs obscene amounts of money/resources. Said obscene amounts of money/resources need to come from big institutions. And chances they'll ask you for things you don't like are pretty high, and you can't really bite the hand that feeds you. Unless you're in 40K, that runs in the rule of GRIMDARKNESS.
    I'm pretty sure the AdMech is independent. In fact, they insist on their independence at every turn. Just like with the SM, the Imperium could bring the AdMech down, but doing so would cripple the Imperium forever. Don't you understand that?

    Again, the IoM has plenty of civil wars/catastrophes whitout the need of chaos and orks buting in. From officers like Jurgen to corrupt governors and power struggles, things could actualy turn much worst in the IoM if there's not a big common enemy to unite against.
    Wo don't know that, becaus we don't know how the Imperium would have evolved had there been no Chaos or other enemies, because the nature of it's enemies define the nature of the Imperium. And do you expect them to run a galaxy-spanning empire without civil war? That's billions upon billions of people, with thousands of planets. Somewhere, somebody WILL be unhappy.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    From officers like Jurgen [....]
    Jurgen. When you find out who you're talking about, please let me know.

    And, "The Dark Age of Technology" proves the rest of it wrong. Remember - that utopic period in human history when humanity owned most of the galaxy without any significant rivals apart from the Eldar, who had much better things to do than worry about upstart monkies?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Jurgen. When you find out who you're talking about, please let me know.

    And, "The Dark Age of Technology" proves the rest of it wrong. Remember - that utopic period in human history when humanity owned most of the galaxy without any significant rivals apart from the Eldar, who had much better things to do than worry about upstart monkies?
    He meant Jurten, the Commander who gave the order that started the atomic war on Krieg. Minor misspellings happen.

    But yeah, I was tempted to point out that misspelling, too. Mostly because the idea of Fenrik Jurgen the officer is endlessly amusing.

    Then the Imperium leadership are a bunch of hypocrites, because Inquisitors and Grey Knights mess directly with the foulest chaos stuff all the time and get away with it.

    I don't care how they do it, the IoM clearly have safe measures against chaos, yet they'll rather burn billions of innocents rather than apply whatever methods they use to keep inquisitors and grey knights safe.
    They'd love to do just that (although some of the protections the Grey Knights have probably wouldn't work for the majority of the human population, as they aren't powerful enough psykers). Got enough gene-seed for a trillion people, and the material to rewrite their personality? The Imperium certainly doesn't. As for inquisitors... Inquisitors go batty all the time. Well, not all the time (We just tend to hear mostly about the ones who do go nuts, because they make for more interesting stories. Inquisitors who are good at what they do make for boring stories, because they rarely do anything newsworthy (or at least, no one sees them do it)), but fairly often. Would it be nice if we could give everyone the training the inquisitors do? Yeah, but again, not everyone has the strength of personality to do it, and the Imperium doesn't have the resources to set up a permanent education system that can churn out a trillion Inquisitors every century or so.

    Who's supplying them the best guns and armor and know-how?
    Whose planets are they geting their raw resources and recruits again?
    Who keeps the corpse-candle in Terra that's vital for their navigation running?
    Who supplies the IG waves to do the brunt of the fighting so the SM can then strike the main points?
    Space Marines have their own planets to recruit from*, and Forge Worlds dedicated to churning out nothing but gear for their use. And the people who live on those Forge worlds are damn proud of this; If you were making the weapons an Angel would use in his service of god, wouldn't you be? As for who supplies the IG... The Imperial Guard and the Space Marines are two different things. I like the metaphor they use in the Big Rulebook; Space Marines are the sword of the Emperor (a precision weapon good for doing work that requires a fine touch, but not a lot else), while the Guard is the hammer of the emperor (A multi-purpose weapon/tool that can be used in a wide variety of situations). The Imperial Guard often don't work alongside the Space Marines, instead one is used to clean up after one or the other (Use Imperial Guardsmen to pacify a planet after a group of Marines makes a precision strike at the Xenos element corrupting it, or a Death Watch kill team applying a lot of force in a small place to wipe out the last, really hard to get to parts of a Genestealer infestation)



    *or can get them from any nearby planet, if they're a crusade chapter. And if you get picked to become a space marine, you take that chance. You don't have a choice yeah, but even if you had it, you wouldn't take it if you lived in the Imperium of Man. Space Marines are not called Angels of death just because they kill stuff. If an Angel came to you (put yourself in the shoes of a very religious person if you need to, as religious skeptics don't tend to live long in the IoM unless they're good at hiding it), and told you they needed you to train to become one, you'd leap at the chance.
    Last edited by Squark; 2011-12-07 at 06:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    That's like saying because we have bomb technicians, everybody can defuse a bomb.
    More like saying that when we have a bomb threat, we can quickly call a bomb technician to take care of the situation. And even if no technician is available, at least evacuate the people nearby, even if there's the risk the one who put the bomb will escape in the confusion.

    In the IoM, the bomb technician is a spoiled child that may or may not answer your call, and then the officers just decide to call a nuclear strike in the city where the bomb was "just to be safe".

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    First, Grey Knights undergo extensive amoutns of mindconditioning, to the point where EVERYONE of them is a powerful psyker, and, if I remember correctly, their very BONES are inscribed with protective wards. Have fun doing that to billions of people.
    What's the point of having an over-the-top IoM if they can't even do that? By all means, start with planetary governors, then important officers, promote investigation on how to make the process faster, mass-produce it, etc, etc. Kinda how we do with medicine.

    The only logic explanation is that the IoM is indeed a place of pure decay where they haven't managed to make any significant advance in 10.000 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Second, many Inquisitors DO fall to Chaos, so even within the Inquisition, it's not like you can just check out the Necroteuch at you local library. Inquisitors get away with it because, like GKs, they trained a life to withstand Chaos. And even then, it doesn't alway work.
    False, Grey Knights have a 0% betrayal rate. Their chapter master even waltz in the chaos realms itself whitout any trouble.


    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    I suspect you know very little about Chaos?
    I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread, since in the previous one people were seriously arguing stuff like Khorne being the weakest chaos god and his followers being a bunch of peaceful philosophers.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Sure thing, but the fact is, that's not a fault of the IoM. That's human nature. It's not terribly important whether you actually do it or not, it's important that you are a man who can plan multiple strategies where the best outcome is that only a few millions die, and that you would be willing to execute that plan, should push come to shove.
    In Krieg's case, the best plan would've been to escape the planet and then come back with reinforcments when available to crush the rebels whitout glassing the planet. Instead he decides to torch the planet.

    But really, it's simply hilarious how the IoM in one moment has over a billion warships (that's a million ships per planet), and the other they have nothing to deal with a planet going rebel. Hurray for IoM innefeciency!


    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Yes, because he was an Imperial officer. What you didn't seem to get was that the same scenario could happen anywhere, even on this world. You just replace Emperor with anything you like.
    Still didn't happen. Nyah!

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Nuclear scientists predicted a small chance that testing the first nuclear bomb could ignite the atmosphere. Guess who tested it anyway?
    The government ordered them to test it anyway. If the scientists didn't want permission, they wouldn't have pointed out that.

    On the other hand, nowadays everybody's strictly forbidden from detonating more nuclear bombs in the planet's surface, even if just for test purposes.

    And you still didn't provide military examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Their own planets. Which they own.
    And who gave them those planets? Who colonized them to begin with?

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    That would either be they, themselves, or the AdMech. They even have their own fleet, though they aren't allowed to keep a truly extensive navy.
    Nope, again you can't make forges and ships out of faith. It was the IoM that first supplied them with those.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Often enough, the SMs do the job on their own.
    Movie marines do it. Actual SM, like pointed time and time again in Imperial Armors and wars like Armagedon, leave the IG to do the brunt of the fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Sure, shut down everything that keeps us alive. I'm sure THAT will teach them. Oh, wait...
    So you do admit the SM are basically parasites with guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Nope, they were build and maintained by the chapters themselves.
    Build and maintained thanks to the IoM first giving them the ships and forges needed to do that. Again, chapters don't spawn out of of thin air. The IoM is the one collecting extra geneseed, making new neophytes, then hands them guns and gear and planets and their own fleet.

    And 50% of the time they turn to chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Sure, the Imperium could absolutely wipe out the Space Marines, and could deny them all mobility etc. Only by doing so, they turn the SM against them, while at the same time robbing themselves of one of their best weapons. And the SM know this very well. The way it is now is most beneficial for both. After all, Space Marines DO fight for the Imperium, and they ARE very effective at that. They're just harder to control.
    SM fight for their own interests. Like the Dark Angels that'll go out of their way to capture anyone who knows about their past, even if it means dooming countless other people. Like the Blood Ravens that seem more interested in looting everything they can than actualy helping.

    Each SM is built from the blood of hundreds of talented children. I don't care how good each SM is, I would rather have the hundreds of elite soldiers/engineers/leaders that don't have 50% chaos turn rate and actually follow orders. In particular when a lascannon/plasma gun hits just as hard whetever is a stormtrooper or a SM firing it.


    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    I'm pretty sure the AdMech is independent. In fact, they insist on their independence at every turn. Just like with the SM, the Imperium could bring the AdMech down, but doing so would cripple the Imperium forever. Don't you understand that?
    -The IoM's technology works on the back of STCs, and any idiot can use those. We have records of feral worlds churning out ships thanks to those for emperor's sake!
    -Whatever creative sparks the dudes in Mars have, it's due to the void dragon being there. By all means replace them with ones more loyal.
    -As pointed above, the resources spent on the SM could be much better empoyed in other stuff.

    The Imperium is already crippled forever, and no matter how you look at it, SM did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Wo don't know that, becaus we don't know how the Imperium would have evolved had there been no Chaos or other enemies, because the nature of it's enemies define the nature of the Imperium.
    Ah, but see, you can never remove chaos from the equation. Because chaos is literally a reflection of the mortal feelings, desires and fears. Just like the eldar's arrogance ended up spawning a chaos god, so does the IoM decay, violence and intrigue feed and strenghten chaos. Corruption does beget corruption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    More like saying that when we have a bomb threat, we can quickly call a bomb technician to take care of the situation. And even if no technician is available, at least evacuate the people nearby, even if there's the risk the one who put the bomb will escape in the confusion.

    In the IoM, the bomb technician is a spoiled child that may or may not answer your call, and then the officers just decide to call a nuclear strike in the city where the bomb was "just to be safe".
    If the IoM declares Exterminatus, it means the did not find a bomb but instead found something that does not even fall in the scope of bomb techs anymore, not even nuclear scientists will help by then.



    What's the point of having an over-the-top IoM if they can't even do that? By all means, start with planetary governors, then important officers, promote investigation on how to make the process faster, mass-produce it, etc, etc. Kinda how we do with medicine.
    Over the top =! everything is over the top. Sure, they could retcon it so that every person is a GK but they don't, because that would not fit in the Grimdark setting. In the setting, human life is cheaper than the gun they carry.

    The only logic explanation is that the IoM is indeed a place of pure decay where they haven't managed to make any significant advance in 10.000 years.
    see above.

    False, Grey Knights have a 0% betrayal rate. Their chapter master even waltz in the chaos realms itself whitout any trouble.
    but inquisitors are not GK or even SM, they are (mostly) regular humans



    I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread, since in the previous one people were seriously arguing stuff like Khorne being the weakest chaos god and his followers being a bunch of peaceful philosophers.
    You are talking out of you hyperbolic bum here

    In Krieg's case, the best plan would've been to escape the planet and then come back with reinforcments when available to crush the rebels whitout glassing the planet. Instead he decides to torch the planet.
    I don't know the exact fluff here, maybe someone with the book could elaborate on his motivation here.

    But really, it's simply hilarious how the IoM in one moment has over a billion warships (that's a million ships per planet), and the other they have nothing to deal with a planet going rebel. Hurray for IoM innefeciency!
    wait, what? I don't follow here. Yes, of course the IoM has a billion warships and no, of course they can't be everywhere at once. maybe those billion warships were fighting a hive fleet, a waagh or a black crusade and told the rebel planet they would have to deal with it themselves untill the ships were free again.



    Still didn't happen. Nyah!
    Now you are being childish. I could name a few things here but that would get me banned under the No Real Politics rule

    The government ordered them to test it anyway. If the scientists didn't want permission, they wouldn't have pointed out that.
    I looked that up. here and here you are wrong, no government told them to get on with it, they chose to do so themselves.

    On the other hand, nowadays everybody's strictly forbidden from detonating more nuclear bombs in the planet's surface, even if just for test purposes.

    And you still didn't provide military examples.
    wrong again it is just controversial. and science that governments don't endorse happens everyday, thats called independent research. again, the rest is modern politics so i'm not going to burn my fingers on that.


    And who gave them those planets? Who colonized them to begin with?
    [B]and who decided to give them to the new autonomous chapter?


    Nope, again you can't make forges and ships out of faith. It was the IoM that first supplied them with those.
    in exchange for the service of the SM who see their ships as holy weopons of the emperors will


    Movie marines do it. Actual SM, like pointed time and time again in Imperial Armors and wars like Armagedon, leave the IG to do the brunt of the fighting.
    There is a nice bit in the first Ragnar book where he ponders who is the greater hero: the mighty SM who dropkicks a greater deamon or the guardsman who goes up agains a carnifex armed with a t-shirt and flashlight. This ilustrates a nice dichotomy between the two: they are both heroes, the SM do small but incredibly difficult stuff, the IG do lots of comparativley easy war.

    So you do admit the SM are basically parasites with guns.
    they are symbiotes. They take up resources but they give back violence.

    Build and maintained thanks to the IoM first giving them the ships and forges needed to do that. Again, chapters don't spawn out of of thin air. The IoM is the one collecting extra geneseed, making new neophytes, then hands them guns and gear and planets and their own fleet.

    And 50% of the time they turn to chaos.
    note give, the IoM kickstarts a chapter but then decide to let them have free reign without needing much further support. Now to the second part of this quote: 50% is far exagerated, lexicanum names 75 renegade chapters out of about 1000 active chapters. I did not feel like looking up how much of those have been destroyed but I'd guess the majority. Then there is Horus' tour de force which is an admitted mistake.


    SM fight for their own interests. Like the Dark Angels that'll go out of their way to capture anyone who knows about their past, even if it means dooming countless other people. Like the Blood Ravens that seem more interested in looting everything they can than actualy helping.
    Blood magpies is just fan fiction, they don't really count. Yes of course the SM occasionally do their own stuff (silver skulls don't go to war without the right omens) but most of the time they do what benefits the IoM at large. its this whole "about half the codices" thing you might have heard off.

    Each SM is built from the blood of hundreds of talented children. I don't care how good each SM is, I would rather have the hundreds of elite soldiers/engineers/leaders that don't have 50% chaos turn rate and actually follow orders. In particular when a lascannon/plasma gun hits just as hard whetever is a stormtrooper or a SM firing it.
    I'd guess the choas turn rate is lower for the mind-conditioned SM then it is for regular humans. again, exaggerated 50%. and yes, in this reality saving hundreds of kids would be preferable but in the IoM there are billions more talented kids where the they come from and the SM are incredibly usefull.


    -The IoM's technology works on the back of STCs, and any idiot can use those. We have records of feral worlds churning out ships thanks to those for emperor's sake!
    -Whatever creative sparks the dudes in Mars have, it's due to the void dragon being there. By all means replace them with ones more loyal.
    -As pointed above, the resources spent on the SM could be much better empoyed in other stuff.
    - Not true, there are no longer any "push button, receive bacon" stc machines, just scraps of blueprints. And you need competent people to use those. I'd also like your source for the feral world producing ships.
    - I'd like a source here too, as far as I know almost none of the Admech even know about the dragon, most are honest mechanic-priests
    - not really, both the admech and the SM fill a role no other entity could fill and trying to remove them would be far too much effort to be worth it.

    The Imperium is already crippled forever, and no matter how you look at it, SM did it.
    Yes, yes it is.
    The IoM recognized the mistake and made sure it won't happen again.


    Ah, but see, you can never remove chaos from the equation. Because chaos is literally a reflection of the mortal feelings, desires and fears. Just like the eldar's arrogance ended up spawning a chaos god, so does the IoM decay, violence and intrigue feed and strenghten chaos. Corruption does beget corruption.
    That is what he is saying

    edit: reformatted
    many more edits: fixed stuff
    Last edited by Borgh; 2011-12-08 at 08:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    More like saying that when we have a bomb threat, we can quickly call a bomb technician to take care of the situation. And even if no technician is available, at least evacuate the people nearby, even if there's the risk the one who put the bomb will escape in the confusion.

    In the IoM, the bomb technician is a spoiled child that may or may not answer your call, and then the officers just decide to call a nuclear strike in the city where the bomb was "just to be safe".

    What's the point of having an over-the-top IoM if they can't even do that? By all means, start with planetary governors, then important officers, promote investigation on how to make the process faster, mass-produce it, etc, etc. Kinda how we do with medicine.
    Ahm, WHAT? The process that creates ONE SINGLE GK is incredibly painful, expensive, and would kill anyone who is not GK-material. That is, EVERYONE else. Probably even regular Space Marines.

    And to carry on your example, in Warhammer 40K, anyone who would have been present when the bomb was discovered might become a bomb himself.

    The only logic explanation is that the IoM is indeed a place of pure decay where they haven't managed to make any significant advance in 10.000 years.
    There are a few recently developed tanks and weapons that prove you wrong there. Sorry. Sure, science isn't that big in the IoM, but it's not a place of pure stagnation either.

    False, Grey Knights have a 0% betrayal rate. Their chapter master even waltz in the chaos realms itself whitout any trouble.
    Yes. GKs. You remember what I said about becoming a GK. It's INCREDIBLY difficult, and only 0,00001% of humans are tough enough, AND are powerful psykers. Mosty Inquisitors are not. You're essentially saying that because one man climbed Mount Everest by himself, everyone could do it, anytime they liked.

    I aparently know more than anyone else in this thread, since in the previous one people were seriously arguing stuff like Khorne being the weakest chaos god and his followers being a bunch of peaceful philosophers.
    You should read that alout to yourself. Borgh answered that petty well.

    In Krieg's case, the best plan would've been to escape the planet and then come back with reinforcments when available to crush the rebels whitout glassing the planet. Instead he decides to torch the planet.

    But really, it's simply hilarious how the IoM in one moment has over a billion warships (that's a million ships per planet), and the other they have nothing to deal with a planet going rebel. Hurray for IoM innefeciency!
    They DO have those ships. But remember the map that somebody posted? These ships are all over the place, and apparently, no fleet was available. Remember, it has to be a real fleet, since sending one or two ships would just mean those ships would be easily slaughter by orbital defences, in which case you've gained nothing and lost two ships.

    Still didn't happen. Nyah!
    You don't get what I'm saying. Or you don't want to get it.

    The government ordered them to test it anyway. If the scientists didn't want permission, they wouldn't have pointed out that.

    On the other hand, nowadays everybody's strictly forbidden from detonating more nuclear bombs in the planet's surface, even if just for test purposes.

    And you still didn't provide military examples.
    Borgh answered that one fine. And the H-Bomb isn't a military example? What IS, then?

    So you do admit the SM are basically parasites with guns.
    Yes, they are. And I never claimed otherwise. Just that they aren't parasites, because a parasite only takes. The SM give, a lot. By smashing the Emperor's enemies, which is basically ALL they ever do.

    Each SM is built from the blood of hundreds of talented children. I don't care how good each SM is, I would rather have the hundreds of elite soldiers/engineers/leaders that don't have 50% chaos turn rate and actually follow orders. In particular when a lascannon/plasma gun hits just as hard whetever is a stormtrooper or a SM firing it.
    SM don't have a monopoly on turning to Chaos. Those Stormtroopers could do it just as easily, and they'd lack the mental training that SMs receive. It's not like becoming a SM activates some deeply rooted desire to turn to Chaos which normal men don't have, which you seem to be implying.

    -The IoM's technology works on the back of STCs, and any idiot can use those. We have records of feral worlds churning out ships thanks to those for emperor's sake!
    Yes, there is ONE story of ONE feral world building ONE ship over the course of HUNDREDS of years. Industrial capacity, ahoy!

    -Whatever creative sparks the dudes in Mars have, it's due to the void dragon being there. By all means replace them with ones more loyal.
    There are enough Techpriests and Magi who are not on Mars, and a lot of research happens not on Mars. I'd even say most of what the AdMech does happens not on Mars, due to the simple fact that much more AdMech facilites are anyplace other than Mars. Sure, Mars is important, but it's not like nothing ever gets done anywhere else. Also, if you "replace them with someone more loyal", that means that the entire AdMech will likely turn on you. Horray civil war!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    And again, the primarchs were stolen and half-corrupted by chaos, and the Emperor goes and puts them on the top possible leadership positions. That's Stupid Evil for you.
    None of the Primarchs were corrupted by their experiences in the warp as infants - they were corrupted and twisted by their experiences with humanity.


    Nice try, but Jurten was pretty explicit in showing his decision was solely FOR THE EMPEROR!
    Because one guy acting in the name of the Emperor proves your point how? I can point to a great many characters who are selfless and noble and do so in the Emperor's name. And it's not like people in the real world do evil things in the name of a God - tarring everyone with the same brush based on teh actions of an individual or select group is narrow mindedness at its most base.


    By all means, point me to any elite militaries with the top tech that only answer to themselves, or the massive research facilities that don't need to comply with the national interests and standards.
    The Foreign Legion tried to overthrow the French government in the 60s, and had to be reorganised (some units moved to France so they could be watched, others disbanded) as they were effectively a law unto themselves.
    Depending on how conspiracy theory you want to go some will say the level of control exerted by the government over groups such as the SAS, Spetznaz, and DEVGRU is minimal.


    Again, the IoM has plenty of civil wars/catastrophes whitout the need of chaos and orks buting in. From officers like Jurgen to corrupt governors and power struggles, things could actualy turn much worst in the IoM if there's not a big common enemy to unite against.
    Sort of like humanity then?


    And since y'all are getting into serious quote wars, a bit of levity:

    Princess in the streets.
    Princess in the sheets.
    Don't touch me I'm royalty.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    note give, the IoM kickstarts a chapter but then decide to let them have free reign without needing much further support. Now to the second part of this quote: 50% is far exagerated, lexicanum names 75 renegade chapters out of about 1000 active chapters. I did not feel like looking up how much of those have been destroyed but I'd guess the majority. Then there is Horus' tour de force which is an admitted mistake.
    This.

    Deut, saying '50% of Marines turn to chaos' (because you only look specifically at the Heresy) is like saying '50% of all American Presidents were named George Washington' (because you only look specifically at the years 1789-1801). It's hyperpolic, misleading, and undermines the rest of your points regardless of their validity because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2011-12-08 at 03:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
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    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    It's hyperpolic, misleading, and undermines the rest of your points regardless of their validity because it makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
    Hint ; He honestly doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    Hint ; He honestly doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.
    Technically, at one point, roughly 50% of the Space Marine legions did turn to chaos.


    But we're discussing Warhammer 40000, not Warhammer 30000.


    EDIT: v Yeah, I know. I was just pointing out he's not pulling the figure out of his behind, he's just mixing time periods.
    Last edited by Squark; 2011-12-08 at 04:27 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Technically, at one point, roughly 50% of the Space Marine legions did turn to chaos.
    Yeah, I know what he's referring to, but the way he uses this argument makes it sound like every marine has a 50% chance to turn to Chaos at any given time.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: WORDS FOR THE WORD GOD; DISCUSSIONS FOR THE DISCUS

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    He meant Jurten, the Commander who gave the order that started the atomic war on Krieg. Minor misspellings happen.

    But yeah, I was tempted to point out that misspelling, too. Mostly because the idea of Fenrik Jurgen the officer is endlessly amusing.
    Ah, that makes much more sense - thank you, Squark

    And yeah, I only did it because the idea of Jurgan in charge was quite amusing. Still, basing the entirety of the argument "Humans are awful" because one guy made a mistake.... I don't even need to explain that, I think.
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