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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by houlio View Post
    I don't normally like nitpicking, but: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Sept#.UIiMyMXA_ng
    Not Tau worlds, specifically. But the worlds that Tau rock up at and decide to integrate the population. What I'm talking about is not what you've linked.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Well, in a way, that's all I wanted to say. Tau are pretty unified, but each world has a specialty, something they're known for.

    Like this:

    Vior'la, a major military centre of the empire, its Fire warriors are considered especially aggressive and skilled.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Not Tau worlds, specifically. But the worlds that Tau rock up at and decide to integrate the population. What I'm talking about is not what you've linked.
    Ah, then I misunderstood. My apologies. Planet is a bit vague in this case. You're right that non-Tau worlds politically controlled by the Tau Empire are homogenized to a degree (Kroot worlds are treated differently than Vespid worlds are treated differently than Gue'vessa worlds).

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Basically, it's true that the Tau Empire isn't the shining utopia they like to describe themselves as. They have a ruthless streak nearly as deep as the Eldar and will stop at absolutely nothing to conquer the entire galaxy.
    Actually, they will stop at one thing-their own troop's lives. Tau are in infamous in 40K for "gasp" always prefering to give up territorry in order to save their force's lifes rather than making last stands. Contrast with the usual "no retreat" policy of the IoM.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    Their society is based on a rigid caste system that basically precludes any element of personal choice in your career. But, still, they're stable, well-managed and generally a lot more concerned about the quality of life of their citizens than the Imperium. A Gue'vesa in the Empire can expect to have a nice home, plenty to eat and lots of gadgets to make their lives easier. It's no surprise a lot of ex-Imperials are happy there.
    You make it sound like the Imperial would have any chance of career choice in their previous existence besides loyalist or rebel. But they didn't have any really. Imperials basically get their job decided for them during their youth (whetever drafted into a military or economic machine) and they'll basically spend their lives at it unless they choose to rebel.

    And like Farsight showed, you can also be a Tau rebel allright.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2012-10-25 at 08:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Not exactly; The Adeptus Arbites are few and far in between on a planet; If a geniune Arbitrator is getting involved, in means something really serious is going on. However, there's a tendancy among authors to refer to any local law enforcement officer in 40k as an Abitrator, hence the confusion.
    Aaah. So is this explicitely the explanation for, say, the Dark Heresy Arbitrator?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    You make it sound like the Imperial would have any chance of career choice in their previous existence besides loyalist or rebel. But they didn't have any really. Imperials basically get their job decided for them during their youth (whetever drafted into a military or economic machine) and they'll basically spend their lives at it unless they choose to rebel.
    Social mobility varies wildly between planets. Remember, the majority of the worlds of the Imperium are actually classified as Civilized worlds (That is, self-sufficient agriculturally, but not focused on agricultural production like an agri-world), not hive worlds or forge worlds.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-25 at 09:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    In some ways the Tau are homogenizing. In others, they really don't care very much. As long as you respect the Greater Good, give your unquestioning loyalty to the Etherial Caste and follow orders as best you can, you're totally free to worship that primitive human God-Emperor. After all, what's the harm in a little bit of nonthreatening freedom? Practicing cannibalism? Distasteful, but otherwise your species isn't too bad, so you can keep on with it.
    I think I'm in my element here, but the Kroot aren't really true members of the Tau Empire, they are all mercenaries, and they fight for more than the Tau Empire in the fluff. They just don't tell the Tau this.
    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    And like Farsight showed, you can also be a Tau rebel allright.
    Yes, but all of his Ethereal's died before he rebelled, this could imply (Oh god! My education is making me use stock phrases from assessments!) that his rebellion could have something to do with them dying. I doubt he would have rebelled if they didn't die.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    Yes, but all of his Ethereal's died before he rebelled, this could imply (Oh god! My education is making me use stock phrases from assessments!) that his rebellion could have something to do with them dying. I doubt he would have rebelled if they didn't die.
    If memory serves, there's some speculation that the Ethereal's death might not have been an accident or at enemy hands...

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Actually, they will stop at one thing-their own troop's lives. Tau are in infamous in 40K for "gasp" always prefering to give up territorry in order to save their force's lifes rather than making last stands. Contrast with the usual "no retreat" policy of the IoM.



    You make it sound like the Imperial would have any chance of career choice in their previous existence besides loyalist or rebel. But they didn't have any really. Imperials basically get their job decided for them during their youth (whetever drafted into a military or economic machine) and they'll basically spend their lives at it unless they choose to rebel.

    And like Farsight showed, you can also be a Tau rebel allright.
    1: The Tau are perfectly content with expending their troops lives when necessary to advance the Greater Good. Thousands of Fire Warriors might fall in the invasion of a planet, and that is just fine. Don't mistake tactics for strategy; the Tau abandon defensive positions when holding them would cost their lives with no hope of success, or when doing so allows them to force the enemy to overextend so they can start hit-and-run attacks and cut the enemy's supply line. It's all part of the 'well-managed' bit. They avoid tactics which would cause unnecessary casualties, but are very willing to accept 'necessary' casualties. Unlike the IoM, they recognize that you can't conquer the galaxy if all your soldiers died defending a worthless bombed-out bit of trench.

    2: Squark already brought this up, but as long as you weren't born on an Agri-world or a Forge World, you've got a decently large say in what sort of job you'll have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    I think I'm in my element here, but the Kroot aren't really true members of the Tau Empire, they are all mercenaries, and they fight for more than the Tau Empire in the fluff. They just don't tell the Tau this.


    Yes, but all of his Ethereal's died before he rebelled, this could imply (Oh god! My education is making me use stock phrases from assessments!) that his rebellion could have something to do with them dying. I doubt he would have rebelled if they didn't die.
    1: No, the Kroot are one of the first members of the Tau Empire. They think of themselves as part of the Tau Empire, and for the most part remain loyal to it. They send out Mercenary Kindreds specifically for an opportunity to meet new, strong beings and eat them to advance the Kroot species. They keep this secret from the Tau because they know the Tau wouldn't be pleased, but the Kroot homeworld is within the Tau Empire and the Kroot are officially one of its client species. Yeah, the Kroot aren't mercenaries for the Tau to the point that they go to huge lengths to keep the fact that they do any mercenary work at all secret from them. Note that this was one change from the 'old' Tau codex to the 'new' one. In the 3rd edition book, the Kroot were just mercenaries allied with the Tau.

    2: We don't know much about the circumstances of Farsight's rebellion other than that the Etherials on the mission died about the time he rebelled, and it probably has something to do with that fancy sword of his, or at least where he got it from. Farsight and his pals are one of the official mysteries of 40k, left intentionally vague so players can fill in the blanks themselves. It might be that he couldn't have rebelled without them being dead. It also might be that he killed them himself. Either can be read from what little we've been given on Farsight's rebellion. Heck, one theory I've read states that he's still working for the Etherials, acting as a beacon for malcontent Fire Warriors to form a wall between the Empire and something nasty on the other side of his Enclaves.
    Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-10-25 at 02:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    hmm... How is your average Agri-world run? Are we talking a lot of modern, sophisticated mass farming techniques, or masses of tenant farmers. The latter is more grimdark, but the former is a lot more rational, considering tenant farming is also largely subsistance based.


    If Agri-worlds are relatively advanced, you probably get some degree of social mobility, simply because you need people to maintain the gear, people to do the census and manage distribution, and the like. It's forge worlds (Legions of oppressed factory workers) and hive worlds (which seem to primarily exist as places for guardsman breeding populations to exist) that are the really bad places to live.
    Last edited by Squark; 2012-10-25 at 03:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Social mobility varies wildly between planets. Remember, the majority of the worlds of the Imperium are actually classified as Civilized worlds (That is, self-sufficient agriculturally, but not focused on agricultural production like an agri-world), not hive worlds or forge worlds.
    Yes, but the difference is that a wilderness, paradise or agricultural world is going to have a population that tops out a few billion citizens, max, simply based on density limitations, and probably much less (we're right on the cusp of that transition ourselves.) Hive worlds can house trillions of battery-farmed citizens, and based on simple math probably account for the great bulk of the imperium's warm bodies. (Forge worlds seem to have smaller populations, but still top out at many billions, and it's unclear whether that total includes the overwhelming majority of lobotomised servitors.) A randomly-selected imperial citizen will never see their planet's sun, and if they ever stray more than a few miles from their birthplace, it'll probably be as a guardsman conscript.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Yes, but the difference is that a wilderness, paradise or agricultural world is going to have a population that tops out a few billion citizens, max, simply based on density limitations, and probably much less (we're right on the cusp of that transition ourselves.) Hive worlds can house trillions of battery-farmed citizens, and based on simple math probably account for the great bulk of the imperium's warm bodies. (Forge worlds seem to have smaller populations, but still top out at many billions, and it's unclear whether that total includes the overwhelming majority of lobotomised servitors.) A randomly-selected imperial citizen will never see their planet's sun, and if they ever stray more than a few miles from their birthplace, it'll probably be as a guardsman conscript.
    Yes, there are a lot of people on a hive world, but Civilized worlds are more common by a large margin, and those can still boast sizable populations, but they're agriculturally self sufficient, and, in general, are not horrible places to live. Also, where is the actual documentation that Hive worlds contain trillions? Most I've heard are still in the billions, and Lexicanum is frustratingly ambiguous as to the populations of the more iconic hive worlds that come to mind (Valhalla and Armageddon)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    ...It's all part of the 'well-managed' bit. They avoid tactics which would cause unnecessary casualties, but are very willing to accept 'necessary' casualties. Unlike the IoM, they recognize that you can't conquer the galaxy if all your soldiers died defending a worthless bombed-out bit of trench.
    Well... yes. But this is part of what makes them superior to the imperium to begin with. The Tau's advantages in technological research, cultural assimilation, interplanetary commerce and military acumen are probably dependent on allowing a relatively high degree of personal initiative, restraints on government interference, and freedom of thought. They don't do this out of altruism, they do this because it's the most effective method of gaining a long-term advantage over their more numerous, intractable or biologically durable competitors. (Hobsbawm's terms- the age of revolution enables the age of capital which in turn enables the age of empire.)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Except they do have a rigid caste system. I wouldn't doubt that within your caste, it's a 'be all you can be, find how you can best serve the Greater Good', but changing castes would be unthinkable.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Well... yes. But this is part of what makes them superior to the imperium to begin with. The Tau's advantages in technological research, cultural assimilation, interplanetary commerce and military acumen are probably dependent on allowing a relatively high degree of personal initiative, restraints on government interference, and freedom of thought. They don't do this out of altruism, they do this because it's the most effective method of gaining a long-term advantage over their more numerous, intractable or biologically durable competitors. (Hobsbawm's terms- the age of revolution enables the age of capital which in turn enables the age of empire.)
    But the problem is that, as I've said, The Tau's model doesn't scale up. They're still relying on slow FTL based courier ships for communication, and they don't have any problems as of yet with psykers, but with a growing gue'sva population, they're going to soon.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Yes, there are a lot of people on a hive world, but Civilized worlds are more common by a large margin, and those can still boast sizable populations, but they're agriculturally self sufficient, and, in general, are not horrible places to live. Also, where is the actual documentation that Hive worlds contain trillions? Most I've heard are still in the billions, and Lexicanum is frustratingly ambiguous as to the populations of the more iconic hive worlds that come to mind (Valhalla and Armageddon)
    Well... firstly there's just the fact that you could squeeze several billion human beings into an area the size of the Isle of Man, so if Hive worlds are anywhere near as crowded and multi-tiered as they're supposed to be, it's not hard to do the math. I can only go by the lexicanum here, but here's the following excerpt:
    There are probably more people on Necromunda than have ever lived in the entire history of Terra up until the end of the twentieth century. An attempted census of Trazior Hive four thousand years ago revealed an estimated population of a billion in the upper habitation levels alone - no further attempt has been made to count Necromunda's population in Trazior or any other of the several thousand hives on the planet.
    Sure, there's nothing inherently stopping a civilised world from being a pleasant place to live, but with adequately rational social engineering and political will, hive worlds could also be made into very livable places (as is apparently the case with the industrial centres of Ultramar. *rolls eyes*) The problem is that lack of adequately rational social engineering and political will in the imperium at large.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    hmm... How is your average Agri-world run? Are we talking a lot of modern, sophisticated mass farming techniques, or masses of tenant farmers. The latter is more grimdark, but the former is a lot more rational, considering tenant farming is also largely subsistance based.
    Judging from the picture next to the (short) description of agri worlds, the majority of them are supposedly run by state-of-the-art farming technology. They have to, even, since I doubt they could support that many hive worlds otherwise. Although I'm sure realistically, they still couldn't, but let's not go there.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    hmm... How is your average Agri-world run? Are we talking a lot of modern, sophisticated mass farming techniques, or masses of tenant farmers. The latter is more grimdark, but the former is a lot more rational, considering tenant farming is also largely subsistance based.


    If Agri-worlds are relatively advanced, you probably get some degree of social mobility, simply because you need people to maintain the gear, people to do the census and manage distribution, and the like. It's forge worlds (Legions of oppressed factory workers) and hive worlds (which seem to primarily exist as places for guardsman breeding populations to exist) that are the really bad places to live.
    I think the usual answer, like everything else to do with the Imperium, is that it varies. Probably they're mostly using modern-equivalent technology, like motorized harvesters and mass-fertilization and pesticide application, because that's the only way you're going to see a decent food surplus. Agri-worlds are supposed to be able to feed multiple other worlds, after all. But, well, that doesn't necessarily encourage freedom. 90% of everyone born on an Agri-world is destined to be a farmer. Most likely the Tech-workers and Administrators are all virtually hereditary positions, since they require education that wouldn't be available to a dirt-poor farmer. The only choice your average Agri-worlder is going to have is whether to join the Guard or not.

    On the other hand, Hive Worlds, while hopelessly polluted, overcrowded hellholes, are the freest places in the Imperium. There is simply such a huge variety of work to be done that you're going to have some degree of choice. Moreover, there are too many people for the Imperium to maintain the harsh control they do on Imperial Worlds. A Hiver might join a gang, run a shop, work in a foundry, maintain a small hydroponic barley farm to creat alcohol or apprentice to a Tech-priest as a labourer. The only planets where the citizens would have greater freedom are Feral Worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    Also, where is the actual documentation that Hive worlds contain trillions? Most I've heard are still in the billions, and Lexicanum is frustratingly ambiguous as to the populations of the more iconic hive worlds that come to mind (Valhalla and Armageddon)
    Scintilla has a population of 25 billion. It is a sector capitol, and can probably be considered a fairly average Hive World. The old BRB put the population of an 'average' Hive World at 40 billion. The truth is probably somewhere between those two figures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Well... yes. But this is part of what makes them superior to the imperium to begin with. The Tau's advantages in technological research, cultural assimilation, interplanetary commerce and military acumen are probably dependent on allowing a relatively high degree of personal initiative, restraints on government interference, and freedom of thought. They don't do this out of altruism, they do this because it's the most effective method of gaining a long-term advantage over their more numerous, intractable or biologically durable competitors. (Hobsbawm's terms- the age of revolution enables the age of capital which in turn enables the age of empire.)
    Yeah, okay, I see. We just had different ideas of the point we were making. I basically said exactly that a little while ago. Agreed. Not that any of that necessarily makes the Tau 'better' than the Imperium. In the real world all of that is just good business practice, but in the 40k universe independent thought is pretty much an open invitation to Chaos. The Tau have been lucky so far because they're all but immune to Chaos temptation, the Kroot can smell Chaos and want nothing to do with it because of their very careful approach to evolution and the Vespid don't really understand the meaning of individualism in the first place, but as they integrate more humans and other Chaos-vulnerable species, it's going to become a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Except they do have a rigid caste system. I wouldn't doubt that within your caste, it's a 'be all you can be, find how you can best serve the Greater Good', but changing castes would be unthinkable.
    The Castes are biologically disctinct. The Air Caste can't even live on a planet's surface for very long at this point. There's no changing Caste for a Tau, period. Not just unthinkable, but literally impossible.
    Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-10-25 at 04:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    But the problem is that, as I've said, The Tau's model doesn't scale up. They're still relying on slow FTL based courier ships for communication, and they don't have any problems as of yet with psykers, but with a growing gue'sva population, they're going to soon.
    Oh, definitely, these are serious problems. I suspect, however, that if they don't develop some direct technological solution to long-range FTL jumps, they'll either utilise their growing knowledge of eugenics/gene-tailoring to deliberately create psyker tau, and/or find some way to neurologically condition human navigators/astropaths in a way similar to the imperial soul-binding process (which would kill two birds with one stone. They might also outsource FTL-jump duties, with suitable upgrades, to their nicassar acquaintances.) Of course, this all assumes that they survive the next few thousand years without being seriously molested.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Except they do have a rigid caste system. I wouldn't doubt that within your caste, it's a 'be all you can be, find how you can best serve the Greater Good', but changing castes would be unthinkable.
    Oh, no question. (Though that's a little like asking Michael Jordan if he wants to take up angel investing, or if Richard Branson has the urge to join the NBA.)

    On a tangential note, I was reading Xenology recently (which is a very good yarn, actually,) and it had some fascinating *cough* 'conjectures' on the Tau's origins, purpose, and methods of social control.
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    Basically, yes, it's pheremone-based mind control of the other castes, apparently genetically transplanted from the Q'Orl hive queens by the Eldar several thousand years ago, in a deliberate bid to create a socially-cohesive, passive-benevolent and naturally chaos-immune species sited as far from the imperial core as possible.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    ...90% of everyone born on an Agri-world is destined to be a farmer. Most likely the Tech-workers and Administrators are all virtually hereditary positions, since they require education that wouldn't be available to a dirt-poor farmer. The only choice your average Agri-worlder is going to have is whether to join the Guard or not.

    On the other hand, Hive Worlds, while hopelessly polluted, overcrowded hellholes, are the freest places in the Imperium. There is simply such a huge variety of work to be done that you're going to have some degree of choice.
    That's an interesting perspective. It's certainly true that the lower levels would be more politically anarchic than most, and the economy would, of neccesity, have more technical diversity. The poverty-imposed barrier to education could still be a major roadblock, though.
    Scintilla has a population of 25 billion. It is a sector capitol, and can probably be considered a fairly average Hive World. The old BRB put the population of an 'average' Hive World at 40 billion. The truth is probably somewhere between those two figures.
    If those are supposed to be the typical figures, I can only say that's a fantastically inefficient use of space for planets ostensibly covered kilometres deep in Pruitt-Igoe.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    It's not the whole planet. In fact, very little of the planet's surface. Hive worlds are built precisely because the planet's lack the space to spread out more, because they're mostly either deserts or toxic wastelands.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Yeah, don't make the mistake of thinking Hive Worlds are City-worlds like Coruscant or Ravnica. Hives are extremely densely populated and huge precisely because they can't sprawl.
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    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    It's not the whole planet. In fact, very little of the planet's surface. Hive worlds are built precisely because the planet's lack the space to spread out more, because they're mostly either deserts or toxic wastelands.
    Guys, I'm sorry, but the math here doesn't add up.

    You can technically cram 4 people or so into 1 square metre of space. The Isle of Man has 570 square kilometres, or space for a little over 2 billion people. Let's scale that down by a factor of 10 to allow people breathing-room, and modestly assume that you give them 10 2-metre floors of dorms, for an average of 50 cubic metres of living space each. So 500 km^2 == 200 million people.

    The earth's surface area is 510 MILLION square kilometres, or space for 200 trillion persons. If even 1% of a similarly-sized planet were built up to these levels, that's 2 trillion human beings.

    More to the point, once you start, there's no reason to stop. Hives are self-enclosed and self-sufficient. They recycle their waste, water and atmospheres, grow their own food, and derive power from nuclear fusion. Assuming you can (A) amass the heavy elements needed for the infrastructure and (B) organic compounds needed for the inhabitants (both of which ought to be abundant in the case of, say, Valhalla, a former paradise world) then you can plonk Hive Blocs in the middle of irradiated desert wastes or underneath grinding ice-sheets and they'll function just as efficiently. The external environment is irrelevant, because you don't depend on it. If you go to the trouble of building these things at all, then sprawl has no downsides.

    And there's no economic reason to build these enormous tower-blocs unless every other square inch of the planet's surface is already taken. Hive Worlds win the population contest hands-down, or there's no reason for them to exist.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Guys, I'm sorry, but the math here doesn't add up.

    You can technically cram 4 people or so into 1 square metre of space. The Isle of Man has 570 square kilometres, or space for a little over 2 billion people. Let's scale that down by a factor of 10 to allow people breathing-room, and modestly assume that you give them 10 2-metre floors of dorms, for an average of 50 cubic metres of living space each. So 500 km^2 == 200 million people.

    The earth's surface area is 510 MILLION square kilometres, or space for 200 trillion persons. If even 1% of a similarly-sized planet were built up to these levels, that's 2 trillion human beings.

    More to the point, once you start, there's no reason to stop. Hives are self-enclosed and self-sufficient. They recycle their waste, water and atmospheres, grow their own food, and derive power from nuclear fusion. Assuming you can (A) amass the heavy elements needed for the infrastructure and (B) organic compounds needed for the inhabitants (both of which ought to be abundant in the case of, say, Valhalla, a former paradise world) then you can plonk Hive Blocs in the middle of irradiated desert wastes or underneath grinding ice-sheets and they'll function just as efficiently. The external environment is irrelevant, because you don't depend on it. If you go to the trouble of building these things at all, then sprawl has no downsides.

    And there's no economic reason to build these enormous tower-blocs unless every other square inch of the planet's surface is already taken. Hive Worlds win the population contest hands-down, or there's no reason for them to exist.
    Hives aren't self-sufficient. That's why we have Agri-Worlds.

    But yes, suspension of disbelief is needed here. Hive Worlds are silly, but giant, overbuilt cities are cool, and fit in such a sci-fi setting.
    Last edited by bluntpencil; 2012-10-25 at 06:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    You can technically cram 4 people or so into 1 square metre of space. The Isle of Man has 570 square kilometres, or space for a little over 2 billion people. Let's scale that down by a factor of 10 to allow people breathing-room, and modestly assume that you give them 10 2-metre floors of dorms, for an average of 50 cubic metres of living space each. So 500 km^2 == 200 million people.
    Alright, now where do the dozens of apartment building sized generators, the meters-wide-and-tall streets, the tens of thousands of cubicles, the extra 3' of space for plumbing, with an additional foot for wiring space, the extra foot+ of space every few meters for the massive support beams, the foot of reinforcement for the flooring between rooms/walls, the hundreds of thousands of landing pads, the rooms that require massively more open air, the factories, the massive sewage plants, the resturants, the stores, the hallways. All of these take away from your "perfect model."

    Because all of these things honestly take up more space per capita than a persons' required living space. Please hang up your plan and try again later.

    They only build giant tower-cities because it's THE IMPERIUM OF MAN!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    Hives aren't self-sufficient. That's why we have Agri-Worlds.

    But yes, suspension of disbelief is needed here. Hive Worlds are silly, but giant, overbuilt cities are cool, and fit in such a sci-fi setting.
    The necromunda fluff indicates that food imports are a luxury reserved for the super-rich, given that the imperium can't properly administer the other levels of a hive, let alone distribute rations. Besides, you'd need dozens, if not hundreds, of agri-worlds to feed a single fully-built hive-world, and there don't seem to be that many to spare.

    I don't have an inherent problem with the idea of hive worlds, it's just that the population figures given are ridiculously low, and IG human-wave tactics would probably not be viable otherwise.

    (Of course, this raises the question of how Space Marine chapters limited to only a few thousand members are supposed to make a gnat's ass of difference in military engagements taking place on that scale, regardless of how badass they are.)

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinslayer View Post
    Alright, now where do the dozens of apartment building sized generators, the meters-wide-and-tall streets, the tens of thousands of cubicles...
    I dunno, maybe on the next 10 floors' worth of space. Bear in mind we're already constructing things a third of a kilometre high, so you can multiply the volume requirements by a factor of 10 or more and still wind up with something well within imperial engineering capacities. I'm making very modest assumptions here.

    EDIT EDIT: Fine, fine fine. Psychic modulations of the immaterium cause quantum flux inductions of the techyon resonance modulators, leading to destabilisation of the demographic stochastic analysis flimflam gloop gleep glop. Handwave handwave handwave. FOR THE EMPRAH
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-10-25 at 06:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    The Imperium also likes to build HUGE, impractical structures. It's their thing
    Si non confectus, non reficiat.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    EDIT EDIT: Fine, fine fine. Psychic modulations of the immaterium cause quantum flux inductions of the techyon resonance modulators, leading to destabilisation of the demographic stochastic analysis flimflam gloop gleep glop. Handwave handwave handwave. FOR THE EMPRAH
    Basically, yeah. None of the numbers in 40K add up at all. I don't let it bother me too much.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    I've long learned to calculate all my IoM figures in the special measurement system that involves "many" "lots" and "really lots".

    For example
    millions ofmany guardsmen died going over the wire
    The population of Armageddon is about a hundred billion lots
    Everyonereally lots of people died a horrible death.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    There's only two numbers we know for sure:

    There is never enough Dakka, and there are always more Guardsmen.
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