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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    @Tau Discussion
    Thanks, guys. I knew that a Star Trek analogy would clear up confusion.

    The thought has occured to me that I may have been advocating two seemingly-contradictory positions in this thread and a previous discussion- here, I've been arguing that biology-plus-culture often play a dominant role in determining aptitude and enthusiasm for a given set of behaviours, whereas before I was arguing that even individuals subjected to both intense biological and cultural conditioning (e.g, a Space Marine) may nonetheless defy those inclinations.

    I guess I can only concede that (A) there probably are going to be members of Tau society that buck the averages for their caste, and it's not clear how well, if at all, their needs are accomodated, and (B), in the case of a Space Marine, it's possible some choices are only psychologically plausible under intense counterposing stresses. (Though I did outline those.)

    I don't have an easy answer to those questions. But I would have to consider them the least of several evils. So I, for one, welcome our blue-grey overlords!

    EDIT: I also think it's quite possible that the relative lack of specialisation among humans will actually turn out to be a significant asset to the Greater Good (tm). There are, after all, significant benefits to be had from cross-disciplinary studies and 'out of the box' thinking, for which reason human auxiliaries have been well-regarded on the battlefield. I would be very interested to see what happens when/if humans begin making corresponding inroads in the fields of tau aesthetics, commerce and industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    I think people are underrepresenting the Imperium, or at least overrepresenting the bad parts. Hiveworlds and life in the priesthood can suck, but thay are statistical minorities. Hives are the Adeptus Terra's version of Forge Worlds, so are planets dedicated to industry and thus everyone there works in the factory cities or to support them.
    Oops. Missed this one. As I argued earlier, while hive/forge worlds may be a minority of the planets in the imperium, if you assume anything resembling a plausible housing density they probably constitute the great bulk of it's population.

    Worlds in the imperium are allowed to be nice to the exact extent that they're not really imperium worlds- which is to say, it's hard for the imperium to directly administer them, such as in Ultramar, and/or on border/feral/feudal/pre-spacefaring worlds, and/or because they serve as private playgrounds for a tiny fraction of the super-rich.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-11-11 at 10:13 AM. Reason: ever-important citations

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Unfortunately, the majority of the Internet and 'casuals' get their information from wikis and not from books.
    That's me!
    However, a quick look on Lexicanum shows me that the 'stupid' side of Ork technology (i.e; It works because it works) isn't there... Ork Tech is now just crude and/or unsafe.
    What? No more "red wunz go fasta"?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Based on what?
    [...]
    Cypher has never had an unambiguous motive given for him.
    His actions during the 13th Crusade were highly suspect. He also has super magical disappearing powers which have nothing to do with the Warp - although he does spend a lot of time there. And a couple of other clues that are no longer in print so who cares?

    Essentially, it doesn't matter. Cypher has been MIA since 3rd and has only appeared in Malediction. Chaos has had a re-work, the Necrons have had a re-work. And the Horus Heresy novels have changed what Cypher's all about. The last concrete thing we know of Cypher - or 'The Cypher', since it's a title - in 6th is that he helped Qruze and Cerebrus escape from Luthor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Not exactly. As it even says in the Codex (even the one in 3rd Ed.), the vehicle likely has a different exhaust system, or better fluid circulation or a more powerful fuel combustion. The fact that it's red has nothing to do with why the vehicle goes faster, but it's the only discernible thing that the Ork can see.

    To my knowledge 'it's red', never has been the reason Ork vehicles go faster. But it's a 40K meme that nobody researches the origins of and so it sticks.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Well, I can only plea misinformation.

    Even so, that doesn't really compensate for the other stupid aspects of their technology (i.e, why aren't they just Tyranids?)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Theory 1) The Old Ones built in the tech-dependency as a means of keeping them on a leash, and a hard-cap to ensure they couldn't evolve past their built-in constraints.

    Theory 2) Bio-weaponry along the lines of the Tyranids was beyond the Old One's capabilities to reliably engineer, so they went with the next best thing of genetically hard-wired technical knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Well, I can only plea misinformation.
    It's not misinformation, per se. But, looking at the particular link, there are no in-text citations like there usually are on a lot of the Lexicanum page. And, even so, one of the references at the bottom is no longer in print (one of the biggest indicators that something is no longer valid), and then I checked the Codex and the 6th Ed. rulebook. None of which make any mention of 'Waaagh! as a Psychic Field' except in the case where it can echo through the Warp and draw more Orks to the location.

    Not being satisfied, I checked DH - Ascension, DH - Creatures Anathema, then checking my Rogue Trader and Deathwatch rulebooks, and DW - Mark of the Xenos (which I was unpleasantly surprised to find that it appears to be a copy-paste from Rogue Trader) my Dark Heresy rulebook is apparently missing, but at some point I should have found it in the other books.

    Anyway, point is, 'Waaagh! makes things work' may have been true at some point, but it isn't anymore. As I've said, GW is trying to get a handle on the fluff now, and anything that isn't in print, effectively doesn't exist, because 'new hobbyists' can't access that information. And...That's it. That's the reason GW hates you. Because a 10 year-old doesn't have the same access to information that say, somebody who has been in the hobby since the '80s or '90s does.

    I know, I know. "But I like 40K my way!" I get it. I understand it. But it doesn't make it true. Essentially it's gone into the realms of fanfic.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Lexicanum is good for checking names, dates, figures, locations and defining terms, but often poor on accuracy or only tells one 'version' in regards to narrative. I've also heard people claim that the admin is very much on having htings represented the way he sees it, rather than in the oft contradictory fashion of 40k.

    I always saw Cypher's actions in the 13th (especially as the voice) as him being a 3rd faction - he wants Chaos stopped, but he also wants the High Lords and Adeptus Terra overthrown as only the Emperor can lead humanity.
    As for his mysterious disappearing, I'd assumed it was linked to the Watchers in the Dark as they've displayed similar abilities (and disappeared El'Johnson).


    Hive worlds aren't actually super populated. The highest recorded figure is 500 billion, but most given numbers are around 120 billion (while Istvaan III was 12 billion), which while a huge increase on current earth's population is being fitted into mountain sized cities.
    There are stated to be around 35,000 Hive Worlds in the Imperium, which has approximately a billion worlds, probably more (based on there not being enough marines for one one every Imperial world). So Hives make up a tiny percentage of the population, around one four thousandth of a percent, and even taking into account a population of two hundred times that of an average world, they are still a tiny portion of galactic population.

    There are a great many sources showing the Imperium isn't overly bad (though it is a huge cultural shift from our current world, so bad is subjective and relative). Dead Men Walking, the Cain series, Priests of Mars, Eisenhorn / Ravenor, the Fantasy Flight RPG books and numerous parts in many more all depict societies under direct Imperial rule where people hold steady jobs, go out at night with friends, go to bars, watch tv, go on dates, hope for promotions and so on. Hell, in Titanicus - set on a Forge World no less - one of the POV characters runs a toy shop!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    As for [Cypher's] mysterious disappearing, I'd assumed it was linked to the Watchers in the Dark as they've displayed similar abilities (and disappeared El'Johnson).
    I'll have to listen to Grey Angel again, or at least the last two tracks.

    But, he also appears in Malediction, and the Watchers have no influence there. At least, none that's mentioned in the story. It's ruddy mysterious.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Anyway, point is, 'Waaagh! makes things work' may have been true at some point, but it isn't anymore. As I've said, GW is trying to get a handle on the fluff now, and anything that isn't in print, effectively doesn't exist, because 'new hobbyists' can't access that information. And...That's it. That's the reason GW hates you. Because a 10 year-old doesn't have the same access to information that say, somebody who has been in the hobby since the '80s or '90s does.

    I know, I know. "But I like 40K my way!" I get it. I understand it. But it doesn't make it true. Essentially it's gone into the realms of fanfic.
    So Red ones go faster is fanon, but not canon?
    I don't understand why Games Workshop would change it, it's something most people think is canon and I don't think anyone will ever think anything else.

    I prefer to use the wiki rather than the Lexicanum, but that is just because I find it easier to navigate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzardevil View Post
    So Red ones go faster is fanon, but not canon?
    Red ones can go faster - but not because they're red. It's just that the Ork who built it doesn't know the difference. Remember, Orks don't understand fuel combustion, but they understand that 'the engine goes here'.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    His actions during the 13th Crusade were highly suspect. He also has super magical disappearing powers which have nothing to do with the Warp - although he does spend a lot of time there. And a couple of other clues that are no longer in print so who cares?
    But it's all basically just fan theorizing, right?


    Anyway, point is, 'Waaagh! makes things work' may have been true at some point, but it isn't anymore.
    There still is... in mild form. Even today. Ork weapons have the Unreliable quality in the RPG's, except in the hands of an Ork.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    So Red ones go faster is fanon, but not canon?
    I don't understand why Games Workshop would change it, it's something most people think is canon and I don't think anyone will ever think anything else.

    I prefer to use the wiki rather than the Lexicanum, but that is just because I find it easier to navigate.
    Well, it has been retconned, so i guess you could say its an old cannon?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Hive worlds aren't actually super populated. The highest recorded figure is 500 billion, but most given numbers are around 120 billion (while Istvaan III was 12 billion)...
    Yes, I've been informed that the official numbers here are, supposedly, actually quite modest. The problem is that these numbers are, once you actually crunch them, nonsensical.
    [The Imperium has] approximately a billion worlds, probably more (based on there not being enough marines for one one every Imperial world).
    ...Which is, as I've also remarked earlier, even more nonsensical. A military force that thinly spread could not possibly make the faintest dent in military actions on that scale. So either there's a lot more space marines per chapter than indicated, or a lot fewer worlds than that (most of the sources I've managed to scrounge indicate on the order of a few million. Probably both.)

    Look, we all know the drill:
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    To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...That's the reason GW hates you.
    Me, personally?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    But it's all basically just fan theorizing, right?
    No. But I'd be a hypocrite if I cited out-of-print White Dwarfs and 13th Crusade web pages that no longer exist that I can't prove were ever around. Like I said, Cypher may have been an agent. But it doesn't matter now. Because pratically everything on both sides has been retconned since the late '90s.

    In fact, it's probably those same sources that tell me that the Emperor is a weapon of the C'Tan. Which, while a fun though. Doesn't make sense anymore because Big E is the souls of a whole bunch of people who committed suicide at the same time reincarnated into one person. ...Which doesn't really have 'C'Tan involvement right here' in any great detail.

    There still is... in mild form. Even today. Ork weapons have the Unreliable quality in the RPG's, except in the hands of an Ork.
    That's fine though. That just means that the weapon jams more often due to poor design. And, for whatever reason, an Ork can make it work. Maybe he bashes it a few times and knocks loose some mechanism. Or maybe all Orks really are minor psychics when it comes to shooting and smashing things. I can believe that. 40K is full of minor miracles.

    But, the old version goes something like
    "roflolol the gun has no firing pin!!11 But the Ork believes it works so it totally shoots!11one!elven"
    ...I'm glad it's gone.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-11 at 10:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Because pratically everything on both sides has been retconned since the late '90s.
    Early 00ies rather than late 90's.

    And listen, cite if you still have a textual copy available. I remember reading that stuff, and as far as I can recall it was all left very ambiguous intentionally. But that was about 8-9 years ago now, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Theory 1) The Old Ones built in the tech-dependency as a means of keeping them on a leash, and a hard-cap to ensure they couldn't evolve past their built-in constraints.

    Theory 2) Bio-weaponry along the lines of the Tyranids was beyond the Old One's capabilities to reliably engineer, so they went with the next best thing of genetically hard-wired technical knowledge.
    *shrugs* It's not inconceivable that sort of explanation might hold up for a few thousand years. It's just a very contrived, awkward and fishy long-term explanation.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Yes, I've been informed that the official numbers here are, supposedly, actually quite modest. The problem is that these numbers are, once you actually crunch them, nonsensical.
    Do you mean the population numbers? I don't see why - you can have a non-hive world with just as high a population as a hive world. Hives are a very specific type of planet / housing system / purpose. Hives are giant factories - resources go in, stuff comes out. There are possibly populated worlds that have arcologies, mega cities and so on that are classified as 'civilised', but have gigantic populations and rely on imports to survive in the same way, but aren't Hive Worlds.

    ...Which is, as I've also remarked earlier, even more nonsensical. A military force that thinly spread could not possibly make the faintest dent in military actions on that scale. So either there's a lot more space marines per chapter than indicated, or a lot fewer worlds than that (most of the sources I've managed to scrounge indicate on the order of a few million. Probably both.)
    No, it's more the nature of the tabletop skewing how common Astartes involvement is. In the Inquisition War trillogy the protagonists visit a planet that is venerating the visit of the Ultramarines years after the fact, and one of the Ultramarines books has a shrine to five Marines who fought and died on the world.
    Marines don't fight very often, it's the Guard that do, but the Marines who get the glory - everybody playing Marines and all the books/video games being about them makes it seem otherwise.

    At least, that would be the canon argument - I personally think there should be around a million Chapters of a thousand marines each for it to make more "sense", but that is just my opinion.

    And that quote is clearly hyperbole - there isn't always war everywhere - and the regime overall is incredibly cruel and bloody (especially by modern standards), but that doesn't mean it's going to be cruel and bloody for every single person all the time.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    *shrugs* It's not inconceivable that sort of explanation might hold up for a few thousand years. It's just a very contrived, awkward and fishy long-term explanation.
    Probably because it wasn't meant to be a long-term explanation - remember that the Old Ones didn't leave the Orks/Krork behind to populate the galaxy after they were gone, they were a weapon in a war the Old Ones expected to win. A few thousand years is extremely short-term for them, and it wasn't meant to incorporate the possibility they would lose their war.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Do you mean the population numbers? I don't see why - you can have a non-hive world with just as high a population as a hive world.
    *sigh* Here.
    At least, that would be the canon argument - I personally think there should be around a million Chapters of a thousand marines each for it to make more "sense", but that is just my opinion.
    Oh, I reckon you'd need you'd need roughly 1 marine for every few thousand citizens for them to make a significant dent. But my point is that extrapolating from the number of marines to the number of imperial worlds may be placing more faith in GW math than I'm willing to extend.

    And that quote is clearly hyperbole - there isn't always war everywhere - and the regime overall is incredibly cruel and bloody (especially by modern standards), but that doesn't mean it's going to be cruel and bloody for every single person all the time.
    Agreed. But I'm talking about average quality of life within the imperium.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    *sigh* Here.
    Um, ok... but what part of what numbers are nonsensical in what way?
    Hives are powered by geothermal, aren't self sufficient (they descent into madness and anarchy without recieving supplies within days), and are a specific type of highly populated planet (Valhalla is not a Hive, it is classed as a civilised world).
    They exist because they started as mining/manufacturing worlds, and as the industry grew the cities grew and grew up to maximise the land area that could be exploited. Once the planet is stripped of resources they continue as manufacturing centres.

    Expansion is limited as most Hives are relics of the Dark Age of Technology, so their construction methods on a macro level are forgotten and would take hundreds, if not thousands of years to build (based on how long it takes to build large space vessels).

    SIGH

    Oh, I reckon you'd need you'd need roughly 1 marine for every few thousand citizens for them to make a significant dent. But my point is that extrapolating from the number of marines to the number of imperial worlds may be placing more faith in GW math than I'm willing to extend.
    Space Marines are best at striking their target hard and fast. When they do that you only need a few (a few dozen Companies take on basically all the Dark Eldar at once - in Commoragh - and most of them got out alive), but in a protracted war their abilities are weakened (multiple chapters involved in the various wars for Armageddon etc). If they show up they will sometimes just appear, make a few strikes and leave once the enemy is destabilised for the guard to mop up.
    Given the number of worlds is stated to be unknown, it's at least a rough working figure unless you can cite more accurate sources.


    Agreed. But I'm talking about average quality of life within the imperium.
    And I've provided many, many examples of it not being that bad in what I've show are statistically more likely scenarios than the nightmare of a Hive World - and even on those the main sections of a hive aren't actually as bad as the Underhive which is what is written about mostly. They're still one of the worst places in the Imperium, but nowhere near the average.
    If you can cite more examples / sources of the average quality of life being horrible outside a bombastic tagline I'm all ears.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Expansion is limited as most Hives are relics of the Dark Age of Technology, so their construction methods on a macro level are forgotten and would take hundreds, if not thousands of years to build...
    Since when does the imperium have a shortage of time on it's hands? But all this is beside the point. These are worlds defined as having a substantial portion of their surface area covered, kilometres deep, in slum-sprawl. If that much civil infrastructure were not substantially inhabited and actively maintained, they would have been salvaged for materials or collapsed into ruins long ago, and that implies a population in the trillions.

    I'm sorry, but there is no working around this. If hive and forge worlds exist at all, they must inevitably dominate imperial demographics. (And they must inevitably be largely self-sufficient.)

    No. of confirmed Hive Worlds x Minimum Necessary Hive Population:
    35,000 x 3 Trillion = 105 Quadrillion human beings.

    No. of confirmed Imperial Worlds X Typical Pre-Industrial Population:
    1 Million x 1 Billion = 1 Quadrillion human beings.

    Space Marines are best at striking their target hard and fast. When they do that you only need a few (a few dozen Companies take on basically all the Dark Eldar at once - in Commoragh - and most of them got out alive)...
    Which, like I said, is numerically nonsensical. The sources may state otherwise, but this only implies that the sources are spouting nonsense.
    And I've provided many, many examples of it not being that bad in what I've show are statistically more likely scenarios...
    They're not statistically likely. They are, on the basis of eminently conservative mathematic, demographic and economic assumptions, insignificant compared to hive world scenarios.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Now, sure, it's fair to say that some hive worlds are less crowded than others. But let's just take the confirmed examples of planets like necromunda and holy terra as being completely covered with sprawl, with competition for space so intensive that the oceans and mountains are almost completely gone, which I'll assume are covered... 200 metres deep. If 1% of terran land surface built up to 50 metres high at 25 cubic metres per person + support infrastructure gives you 2 trillion human beings, then 2 x 100 x 4 = 800 trillion human beings. So, those two planets together might conceivably house more human beings than all other non-forge/hive worlds in the imperium combined. (I'm aware that much of terra's land surface is given over to the imperial palace, but these are still markedly conservative estimates.)

    For the most part, the only primary sources I can cite are wiki entries, but unless they have been telling me great big porky lies, I see no other way to square the statement that "Hive Worlds contribute the vast bulk of the recruits for the Imperial Guard" and "The violent gangland lifestyle which most residents are forced to live means they are already hardened and experienced in warfare. Almost every recruit will already know how to handle a gun." (If the Imperium isn't drafting guardsmen from a given world, that's probably a sign they don't really control it.)

    So, I don't know. Perhaps you have had access to materials which utterly, utterly contradict the general impression that these sources have conveyed to me. If so, I apologise for besmirching the imperium's good name.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post

    For the most part, the only primary sources I can cite are wiki entries, but unless they have been telling me great big porky lies, I see no other way to square the statement that "Hive Worlds contribute the vast bulk of the recruits for the Imperial Guard" and "The violent gangland lifestyle which most residents are forced to live means they are already hardened and experienced in warfare. Almost every recruit will already know how to handle a gun." (If the Imperium isn't drafting guardsmen from a given world, that's probably a sign they don't really control it.)
    Actually, IIRC, there are lots of imperial controlled worlds that don't get tithed for guard regiments, for a variety of reasons.

    Some worlds simply have too small a population for it to be worthwhile. If I recall, Gravlax (From the first Cain book) falls into this category. It's almost certainly classified as a "Civilized World", with at least one rather sizable city, but it isn't tithed for guard regiments.

    Other worlds don't give Guard regiments for political or economic reasons. AdMech Forge Worlds don't generate guard regiments, and Scintilla (From one of the Dark Heresy books), despite it's very large population, only recently created a guard regiment. In Scintilla's case, the planet is very rich in minerals, and that large population is used to toil away in the mines, gathering ores to be shipped off to forge elsewhere in the sector. They need miners more than they need guardsmen, so it's left alone.

    I imagine that many Agri Worlds may also be exempt from Guard tithes, especially if they're growing the food that feeds an important hive world. Other worlds may simply not be called upon to raise a regiment until one is needed.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Most hive worlds are apocalyptic, polluted wastelands with the hive spires dotted over them. Terra is notable for being a single planet spanning city.

    There are canon sources for hive worlds, and the highest given is 500 billion, most are given at around 120 billion (as I said before). And, as I said before, some Hive Worlds have populations not much more than current Earth - Isvaan III has 12 billion and is often referred to as a hive, Scintilla has 25 billion and is consistently referred to as a Hive World. Your 3 trillion is six times higher than the highest canon source, which is itself five times higher than the given average by a significant margin.


    Which, like I said, is numerically nonsensical. The sources may state otherwise, but this only implies that the sources are spouting nonsense.
    In 40k, those are the facts of how the universe works, like them or not.
    A single Marine company pacifying a planet in a week is ludicrous, but if you want to discuss 40k lore you must accept that it happens or preface everything with "in my personal canon" (which I myself do in some matters).
    If you just discard bits of canon you don't like any discussion is futile.


    They're not statistically likely. They are, on the basis of eminently conservative mathematic, demographic and economic assumptions, insignificant compared to hive world scenarios.
    Mathematics using your own figures, not the canon of the universe... so, yeah.


    If the Imperium isn't drafting guardsmen from a given world, that's probably a sign they don't really control it.
    It is a myth that every planet regularly tithes manpower to form regiments.
    Hive Worlds can because they have high population density so losing a few hundred thousand people every now and then actually helps. They are also high traffic areas due to being major manufacturing hubs so the Adeptus Munitiorum can swing by regularly to pick them up.
    Planet Joebob 7 whose main export is minerals might only get visited by a tithe ship every ten, fifty, hundred years (there are references to planets having "Tithe Day" festivals every decade or so) and be required to provide only minerals - nothing more. They might be required to give manpower to navy vessels escorting the tithe ships, they might not (or the Navy might just press them anyway).

    There's no hard and fast rules about tithing, so saying that the bulk of the Guard's manpower comes from hives is like saying the bulk of Imperial manufacturing comes from Hives - it may be true but it doesn't mean other places don't manufacture at all, just less, and that there may be a disproportionate representation of Hive Worlders in the Guard.

    And very few worlds have constant contact with Terra. They have planetary governors whose job is to supply the tithe and keep mutants and psykers down. How they do it is up to them, but so long as it's done the Adeptus Terra don't care. That doesn't mean the Imperium isn't controlling them. There will be any combination of Adeptus Administratum, Arbites, Munitiorium, Sororitas, Mechanicus or Astra Telepathica officials stationed on the world to keep the machine running as well.
    Of course sometimes a tithe ship gets lost and it can be centuries before anyone notices. Some cases will mean there's the backlog nicely in storage ('cause the Adminstratum will still want its due), or sometimes you'll need to crack some rebel skulls as the Governor's descendants have forgotten who's really in charge then take the tithe owing.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Actually, IIRC, there are lots of imperial controlled worlds that don't get tithed for guard regiments, for a variety of reasons.
    My bad. I stand corrected. (Though, if these planets lack significant populations or find most of their populations toiling in the mines or on feudal plantations, that's not a great argument for average living standards.)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    The issue is that if you go with your values for Hive world population, you run into the Coruscant problem. There is simply no possible way to feed that many people in a practical fashion. Frankly, you'd need thousands of worlds to feed a population of a measly (compared to your figures) trillion people, and you'd need thousands of supercruisers delivering food daily*. Then you have people, well... finishing said food (Sure, you can process some of that back into food with the right technology, but you've still got to process a crapton of, well, crap). Not even mentioning oxygen would rapidly become a concern without a normal ecosystem to handle the CO2 produced by said quadrillion people.


    (For reference, here is the last in a series of strips in which David Morgan Mar pointed out just how impractical a city world really is).


    *Plus, the warp isn't anywhere near as fast and reliable as the Hyperdrive in Star Wars is. Even minor eddies in the warp would result in the deaths of billions on your hypothetical hive.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Mathematics using your own figures, not the canon of the universe... so, yeah.
    Well... yes. I do tend to trust these figures rather more than those that are mathematically, demographically, and economically impossible. I'm wierd that way.
    If you just discard bits of canon you don't like any discussion is futile.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    The issue is that if you go with your values for Hive world population, you run into the Coruscant problem. There is simply no possible way to feed that many people in a practical fashion.
    There is. You simply have to culture all the food locally in chemical plants (as Necromunda is stated to do,) and recycle all air and water (which a hive world will have to do regardless once the ecosystem goes bust.) This is what I've been saying- hive worlds can only exist as largely self-sufficient systems.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Well... yes. I do tend to trust these figures rather more than those that are mathematically, demographically, and economically impossible. I'm wierd that way.
    If you're not willing to accept the ludicrously impossible, then 40k is probably not the right universe to be trying to get a handle on


    Says the guy who happily discards the setting's most recognisable tagline.
    *girl

    I don't discard it, but I do regard it as a bombastic and overblown marketing tool / propaganda, and can point to sources that prove it to be so.


    Edit: Necromunda, like all hives, relies heavily on imported food - its own production is not self sustaining.


    Edit edit: Working in a mine doesn't mean you have a terrible life... it means you work in a mine.
    The main character of Dead Men Walking is a shift supervisor in a mine, and we see him out at dinner with his girl, he's thinking about proposing and various other "normal" things. Of course it all goes rather pear-shaped when the Necrons wake up, but if they hadn't been asleep down there he would have had a pretty good life.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Since when does the imperium have a shortage of time on it's hands? But all this is beside the point. These are worlds defined as having a substantial portion of their surface area covered, kilometres deep, in slum-sprawl.
    [citation needed]

    No, really, that's not how a Hive World is defined. A Hive World is any world which maintains a 'high' population count (which in this case is probably "higher than Earth current"), the vast majority of which live in extremely densely populated urban arcologies known as Habspires. A general secondary caveat is that living outside of the Spires is impossible for one reason or another. Valhalla is classified a Civilized world despire having an "extremely large" population specifically because its inhabitants are heavily spread throughout the planet. The opposite goes for Scintilla, which has a relatively small population but is basically uninhabited outside of four major Hive settlements. The Imperium doesn't do Coruscant-style city-planets except for Terra. They cram a huge number of people into a small space because, one way or another, having a properly dispersed low-density population doesn't work.
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