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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    ...The planet's crust doesn't complain when your intensive mining facilities pull ore out of it; the Steel Spiders might kick up something of a fuss when you turn up to dismantle the old chemical shed they live in.
    Well... yes. Because the chemical shed is inhabited.
    I'm not sure where "superstitious aversion to the production line" comes from either. The thing I mentioned with the tank factory on Armageddon mentions how a production line conveyor belt was used to anchor the battle-line, and how the battle was won when the Guard counter-attacked in unpainted Chimeras that had just rolled off the assembly line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borgh View Post
    Admech don't really do this though. The recent book Priests of Mars has the mentioned Serfs sweeping up the waste of the reactor in pretty much the most advanced/ancient ship they have.
    I'm getting conflicting reports here. Please clarify.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    EDIT: Just saw your later post, and thought I'd add - I think "Dickensian" is a great descriptor for Imperial society as a whole. It's how I try to play it.
    Well, Dickensian, if the luddites teamed up with the papacy and won, and then managed to make everything worse. But I'm glad you like it.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    I'm getting conflicting reports here. Please clarify.
    Well, he's reading a book (that I haven't read) and I'm referring to some background material written during the Third War for Armageddon campaign. They're separate sources, about separate parts of the Imperium; they don't have to be consistent. The Imperium's a very varied place, and sources aren't always supposed to be reliable either.

    I don't expect or require that my own view line up exactly with Borgh's, but I don't have too much trouble with the idea of Mechanicus serfs sweeping up radioactive waste. The Mechanicus takes the Imperial attitude of respecting (rare) technology more than human lives to the extreme; if a serf (and it's all in the title - serf) is cheaper/more expendable than a dedicated waste-disposal machine, then serfs it is.

    Assembly lines don't have to be 100% automatic. When you have a society where organised labour is in as much of a mess as it appears to be on most Imperial worlds, then human workers are probably going to be the most cost-effective solution nine times out of ten. In a many cases, a manual (rather than automatic) assembly line will also have advantages in terms of quality.
    Last edited by LCP; 2012-11-13 at 09:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    That's probably less to do with time and dates and more to do with swimsuit calendars
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    Last edited by GolemsVoice; 2012-11-13 at 10:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    The Imperium's a very varied place, and sources aren't always supposed to be reliable either.
    Sigh face. That's not how it works anymore. The Third War for Armageddon - which is 3rd Edition, no longer in print, no longer matters. You can cite it, but claiming that it's anything more than a one-off is hard to prove if you don't have another source.

    Priests of Mars, published earlier this year, is considered one of the best non-Heresy books to come out of Black Library in a long time, topped only by Atlas Infernal and Angel of Fire. And, since it's post-4th Edition, it is considered reliable.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    I think you're being overly harsh here not to mention you sound really arrogant. Are there sources contradicting what LCP said? Or sources that state that widespread manual labour is the norm? Yes? Then it's invalidated. No? Then why not just leave it at that?
    Last edited by GolemsVoice; 2012-11-13 at 10:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Priests of Mars, published earlier this year, is considered one of the best non-Heresy books to come out of Black Library in a long time, topped only by Atlas Infernal and Angel of Fire. And, since it's post-4th Edition, it is considered reliable.
    Well, yeah. Until they decide to retcon that as well.

    But I'm perfectly prepared to believe that different portions of the imperium vary significantly in their tech levels and doctrinal orthodoxy. (Though, admittedly, not for lack of trying on the imperium's part.) I just wanted to know what the general picture was. *shrugs*

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    I think you're being overly harsh here not to mention you sound really arrogant.
    Maybe. But I keep having to repeat myself. The point is, either the fluff is real, or it isn't. And if some of it is, and some of it isn't, how do we know which is which? If the Fluff is 'unreliable' why bother reading any of it, why should we take an interest.

    So, Black Library made the call. Everything is canon until it's not. And in most cases, that means until it stops being printed.


    Still, there aren't too many instances of production lines, since that comes dangerously close to AI. And, humans are plentiful and found in abundance and it really doesn't matter if hundreds of them die - just like in Priests of Mars - because you can always get more. Also, humans have the ability to make decisions when something goes wrong, machines do not. Unless they absolutely have to, the AdMech doesn't entirely making servitors out of everyone, just the ones that don't do what they're told.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-13 at 10:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    And in most cases, that means until it stops being printed.
    You got a source on that being the case?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Maybe. But I keep having to repeat myself. The point is, either the fluff is real, or it isn't.
    Well, not be pernickety, but none of it is real. All we can argue about is whether it is illuminating as an extrapolation of real-world trends, or at least internally-consistent.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    It's not designed to be internally consistent.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    You got a source on that being the case?
    Generally if it stops being printed (or goes to print-on-demand), it gets that fantastic black cover and the 'Heresy' stamp on it. Usually because it's been, or is about to be retconned. Or that it no longer fits the 'youth-friendly' image that GW is trying to uphold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Well, not be pernickety, but none of it is real.
    ...Really? That is pernickity. ...I assume that's a word because I've never heard of it and spellcheck doesn't like it.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-13 at 10:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    And I totally agree with you. But it's one thing to say "Squats live near Terra" and cite old fluff, when the new fluff clearly states that squats no longer exist. But saying "There ARE assembly lines in the Imperium" isn't wrong just because the AdMech uses serfs to clean up waste. One source doesn't neccessarily contradict the older source.

    Also, isn't everything we know about the war for Armageddon from the third edition, aside from a few acknowledgements in the newer editions? Is what happened there no longer canon even if no newer source contradicts it? I mean, otherwise they'd soon run into the problem of having to actively confirm everything (Yes, that happened. No that didn't happen. Yes, those things happened...) if a new edition automatically invalidates older stuff.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    There are currently three books with the Heretic Tomes stamp available - I was asking where you get the idea that this means everything OOP is non-canon (like the aforementioned Armageddon sourcebook).


    Also the GW designers at Games Day this year were saying that the universe is designed to have multiple interpretations/conflicting histories so, yeah, sighface right?
    Unless of course you can cite a source where GW have stated that they're cleaning up the canon and only having a single version for everything.
    Last edited by Zorg; 2012-11-13 at 10:45 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    Also, isn't everything we know about the war for Armageddon from the third edition, aside from a few acknowledgements in the newer editions? Is what happened there no longer canon even if no newer source contradicts it? I mean, otherwise they'd soon run into the problem of having to actively confirm everything (Yes, that happened. No that didn't happen. Yes, those things happened...) if a new edition automatically invalidates older stuff.
    Indeed. I believe the current GW/BL solution to old Fluff that isn't confirmed again post-4th is to ignore it. Which is kind of terrible, considering the new Fluff we get in Codecies is...Pretty bad.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-13 at 10:51 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    On another topic, during our Deathwatch game last night, the matter of Wrap transit time was brought up, and I remembered the same subject here on the Forum and how starmaps don't mean anything if time and distance are unrelated. It was also mentioned that if it takes 50 years to get to Terra, wont the psykers on the Black Ships be useless by the time they get there?
    50 realtime years on a Black Ship seems pretty egegiously long...
    Fast ships on direct courses with good navigators can cross the galaxy a lot faster than that. To the tune of 1 to 5 years.

    If the black ships have local gathering groups sending psykers to collection points, I'd imagine the Psyker will probably be on Terra in a year or two realtime. If they're stopping off at a lot of places on the way? It probably takes decades.

    I'd imagine a pilgrim might take 50 years or more to get to Terra, hitching rides on charter fleets and colony ships going in the vague general direction, with long stops out doing crap labour to raise funds. But that would probably take them 50 subjective years, rather than 50 relative years.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Also the GW designers at Games Day this year were saying that the universe is designed to have multiple interpretations/conflicting histories so, yeah, sighface right?
    Sigh face, indeed. I understand when Dan Abnett writes stuff and then in interviews say that not everything he writes is legit (even though everyone swears that it is), I'm kind of okay with that statement from him, because he makes his stuff up on the spot. None of what he writes actually steps on the toes of any established fluff because he's actually making it up as he goes along. In fact I believe he's responsible for at least one, maybe two entire Segmentums which are now canon. ...I'm also fairly certain he invented the concept of the Halo Stars, but I could be wrong. Although I could be thinking of Lucky Space, which he did make up.

    Contrast to Graham McNeil, who does nothing but flesh out stuff that already exists. He's said he needs to be careful when he writes his stuff so that everything fits in perfectly with what already exists.

    AD-B, super-cool dude that he is, just says whatever you want.

    However, that's the stance of the writers. And I've been told several times by different GW Staff in different stores, that that's not necessarily what management thinks.

    Not only is the fluff inconsistent, but so are the views of the writers and management also differ. And management don't really share their opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    50 realtime years on a Black Ship seems pretty egegiously long...
    It can be 'up to 50 years', and I assume that's from the other side of the Galaxy to Terra. Shorter trips, obviously take a shorter time.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-13 at 10:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    So we know nothing of the war of Armageddon except that it kinda... happened? Despite having a wealth of information at hands?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    So we know nothing of the war of Armageddon except that it kinda... happened? Despite having a wealth of information at hands?
    That's not what I said. I said claiming anything that isn't current as anything more than a one-off is hard to do.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...Really? That is pernickity. ...I assume that's a word because I've never heard of it and spellcheck doesn't like it.
    British for 'persnickety', which apparently means 'hung up on trivial details or fussy'.

    But I am making a serious point: There might be a current official version of the universe, but that doesn't necessarily make it the most interesting to discuss.

    For example, one of my motives for researching this topic at all has been to try and understand the bizarre phenomenon of it's popularity, and from that perspective, the preferences of fans who cling to officially retconned materials are of as much interest to me as recent changes targeting a 'youth market'.

    The imaginary universe that lacks space-dwarves is newer than the one that (edit) has 'em, but it's not intrinsically any cooler. (In theory. Although I have no personal fondness for space-dwarves and can barely tolerate, e.g, space-elves.) But it's stupid to speak of one of these universes as more real than the other.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-11-13 at 11:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Not only is the fluff inconsistent, but so are the views of the writers and management also differ. And management don't really share their opinions.
    The comment was from Jes Goodwin and everyone else agreed with him, so management may want them to sort it out, but the design studio show no incination to, and it's their opinion on the matter that counts, not the suits.

    From talking with New York Times bestselling author Graham McNiell his approach to writing is very structured, with lots of planning and so on - Abnett seems (as you said) more off-the-cuff - and that's just differences in how they work. Just because New York Times bestselling author Graham McNiell chooses to keep everything un-conflicting doesn't mean he isn't allowed to create conflicting canon.
    There is also no-doubt editorial oversight and degrees of canon-conflict allowed (can't suddenly say Eldrad is alive again [unless that's the plot of the book]), but it's still there.

    Unless you want to go all RIFTS on 40k and have one guy writing everything there are going to be differing interpretaions regardless - we only need look at Space Marines - sometimes they die by the dozens like slightly tougher dudes, sometimes they are nigh-unstoppable engines of death. New York Times bestselling author Graham McNiell even said to me he writes 40k and 30k marines differently for different literary effect, so that's going to play into it as well.


    And I'm still interested if you've got a source for this quote: "Black Library made the call. Everything is canon until it's not. And in most cases, that means until it stops being printed."

    -

    one of my motives for researching this topic at all has been to try and understand the bizarre phenomenon of it's popularity
    What's so bizarre about 40k being popular? Or, to put it another way, why do you think it shouldn't be?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    What's so bizarre about 40k being popular? Or, to put it another way, why do you think it shouldn't be?
    Well... basically everything we've been talking about? That it's a setting ultimately manufactured by a marketing department with near-total disregard for aesthetic and logical cohesion? I mean, a really thorough auditing of the setting, even if you allow whatever metaphysics permits Chaos/Psykers to exist to... 'exist', would probably strip away everything except the imperium (who desperately need some period-consistent costuming, for the sake of my poor bleeding eyeballs) and their chaos counterparts, the tau and affiliates, the eldar and maybe some aspects of the nids and crons.

    In my totally subjective and biased opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by king.com View Post
    I think what many people dont realise is that the 40K universe and its narrative is really, really, REALLY dumb. Mind-numbingly terrible in fact but theres enough really interesting concepts, character and events that people latch onto these ideas and explore them. When added to the collective body of what 40K is, it becomes terrible again but people are able to interpret the setting based on the sheer scale of it that you can do and enjoy what you want from it.
    EDIT: Now, with all that said, there are elements of the setting, buried and bemired and begrimed as they may be, that tickle my fancy as an interesting form of social commentary or techno-political speculation. I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. But man, that bathwater needs changing.
    Last edited by Carry2; 2012-11-13 at 11:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    That it's a setting ultimately manufactured by a marketing department
    This is completely wrong - no other way to say it.


    with near-total disregard for aesthetic
    I'd argue 40k has a very cohesive aesthetic, but that is a rather subjective thing.


    and logical cohesion?
    and they admit this freely and don't try to get everything to make logical sense - it's about atmosphere and attitude unlike, say, Star Trek, which has a very tight and internally consistent canon.

    It really comes off like you're saying "I don't like anything about this setting - here's how it should be completely changes so I'll like it".
    Asking 40k to be rid of the mad over the topness and make complete sense is like asking Star Wars to get rid of the force - it wouldn't be Star Wars anymore no matter what else you kept.
    Last edited by Zorg; 2012-11-13 at 11:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    This is completely wrong - no other way to say it.
    Forgive me, but I've been under the impression that significant portions of background lore have been struck from the record because it wasn't helping them target their current youth market. The tau, fond as I am for them, were definitely 'off-key' for the setting when first introduced and seem to have been an attempt to capitalise on anime-mecha tropes. The entire setting was spawned as a quasi-serious spinoff from a prior line of wargame miniatures, and portions that sell poorly tend to get axed over time.

    *shrugs* Again, I'm just working from a mishmash of second-hand commentary, wiki sources and the occasional codex or tie-in literature that I picked up out of curiosity, so maybe I'm way off-base here. But that's the overall impression I've gotten.
    I'd argue 40k has a very cohesive aesthetic, but that is a rather subjective thing.
    Imperial guard have WW2 costuming, space marines, AdSor and AdMech resemble steampunk crusaders, and witch-hunters are straight out of 18th-century new england. I realise it's a relatively superficial quibble, but aside from the dangling bionics and skulls, skulls and more skulls, there's little to visually suggest these people come from the same civilisation.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    When you say it's dumb, you're comparing it to what, exactly? Star Wars? Star Trek? Starcraft? Halo? Mass Effect (snort)?

    The fact is, every game IP is driven by marketing, that's because they want to grow their brand to sell their products. John Blanche has been the art director for Games Workshop since just before the publication of Rogue Trader. His vision has been the foundation for the 40k brand and its growth, and for a game that's been around for that long, it actually shows much more aesthetic cohesion and internal consistency than many of its competitors.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    it's about atmosphere and attitude unlike, say, Star Trek, which has a very tight and internally consistent canon.
    You don't watch very much Star Trek, do you?

    Plot holes are the inevitable result of writing about the same subject for a very long time. They're inescapable. If anything, 40k is a bit better about them, because they don't indulge in much actual narrative. There's a lot of setting, but not a lot of story.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    It really comes off like you're saying "I don't like anything about this setting - here's how it should be completely changes so I'll like it".
    Well, not quite. I think about half the setting would be workable with minor technical and thematic adjustments, and most of the rest would need serious overhauls, if logical/aesthetic consistency were the primary driving force behind it's development. I'm not saying that that is, or even necessarily should be, the main driving force.

    I'm just curious as to why this particular wargame franchise managed to emerge as dominating the market, instead of some other, equally mechanically-engaging wargame system that had a... saner body of background fluff. All else equal, logical/aesthetic consistency would seem to be a marketable virtue. Was all else not equal, or is there some reason why consistency would actually be a major handicap?

    Arguments to the tune of "You shouldn't reject something just because you don't like it" tend to go nowhere. Its conceivable that a person dislikes X because they have valid reasons for disliking X, and conceivable they are inventing spurious rationalisations to buffer their ego, but the only way to find out is by dissecting the specifics of their argument. Otherwise, the whole affair devolves into bulverism.

    I can't really comment on the setting's merits relative to other major sci-fi-reminiscent franchises (well, I could, but we'd be here all day.[/i] But I generally wouldn't leave be any less scathing in their cases.)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Forgive me, but I've been under the impression that significant portions of background lore have been struck from the record because it wasn't helping them target their current youth market. The tau, fond as I am for them, were definitely 'off-key' for the setting when first introduced and seem to have been an attempt to capitalise on anime-mecha tropes. The entire setting was spawned as a quasi-serious spinoff from a prior line of wargame miniatures, and portions that sell poorly tend to get axed over time.
    The whole "X & Y is gone to target kiddies" might be true, but given GW haven't said anything about it most of it is (older) fans coming up with excuses as to why things have changed.

    Even if we assume the Tau were created as a cash in, that's one comparatively small and relatively recent part. NOt much else has actually changed. I think people point ot lack of sex - but aside from a few brief mentions in one or two sourcebooks 40k (or any GW product) has never mentioned it much. Black Library is probably getting more sexualised and portraying far more child-unfriendly situations as the years go on.

    The very brief history of 40k is that Games Workshop, back when it was around two dozen people, made Warhammer, and at one point Rick Priestly was going around telling everyone about this new game coming out called "Rogue Trader" - a sci-fi tabletop/RPG game. They decided to stick the Warhammer on their just before release for brand recognition, and changed to from WH 4,000 to 40,000 because the extra zero makes it cooler and easier to justify crazy things.

    The Squats were axed during the worst period of the company, and they have since publicly stated that it was a big mistake (and brought them back in a footnote in 6th ed).
    The only other race to get retconned away are the Zoats and perhaps the Slaan (who got turned into the Old Ones).
    Most of these changes happened around 15 years ago - since then no race has been removed and while some units have changed game-wise, not a whole lot has been erased wholesale from the background. Some things have seen quite radical revisions over the years, but the vast majority of the heavy revisions happened before the company became a PLC back in the 90s.

    Most of the original background elements were borrowed from Warhammer, Judge Dredd or Dune, and many changes have been to move away from those derivative roots and establish 40k as a unique setting. They've also dropped some of the more farcical elements over the years (like mocking Birmingham or various celebrities as much), but that's again to make the setting more serious.


    *shrugs* Again, I'm just working from a mishmash of second-hand commentary, wiki sources and the occasional codex or tie-in literature that I picked up out of curiosity, so maybe I'm way off-base here. But that's the overall impression I've gotten.
    Well if you're serious about trying to understand what people like about 40k, you're going to need to do way more research than that.


    Imperial guard have WW2 costuming, space marines, AdSor and AdMech resemble steampunk crusaders, and witch-hunters are straight out of 18th-century new england. I realise it's a relatively superficial quibble, but aside from the dangling bionics and skulls, skulls and more skulls, there's little to visually suggest these people come from the same civilisation.
    There's a difference between tabletop miniatures and the wider fiction. The miniatures have to give an immediate visual cue. The wider background explores in more depth (obviously) and ties everything together more.
    The argument could be made that the overall visual style is "medieval/historical space dudes", which given the overarching theme of fallen/failing empires is rather appropriate.



    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jackal View Post
    You don't watch very much Star Trek, do you?\
    I was meaning relatively.



    I'm just curious as to why this particular wargame franchise managed to emerge as dominating the market, instead of some other, equally mechanically-engaging wargame system that had a... saner body of background fluff.
    Part of it is that it was nothing like any other game released at the time. It was released in the mid to late 80s in England, and I don't know how old you are or whatever, but the Iron Lady in charge was not super popular with sections of the youth (and board rules prevent any further discussion of that line).
    However I can say that it's the same attitude that gave us Judge Dredd (many of the early artists for 40k worked for 2000AD) and the various apocalyptic / nihilistic movements of the time (punk etc).

    And there just wasn't the competition for the market for a long time. Battletech would be the closest, but in terms of gameplay, miniatures and background they are very different beasts.

    Warzone, Firefight, Cryomek, Cobalt-1 and a whole bunch of others still cling to life thanks to the internet, but have never gained a foothold or sunk back into obscurity for a few reasons.
    They came later so were compared to 40k - often the sculpts were lacking or uninspiring, the game sucked (Firefight is awful to play), the backgrounds were even more derivative than 40k (Cryomek is basically Aliens), or the background lacked spark - it was lacking any feeling that the authors loved thinking up new places, people and events to be explored.

    GW also weren't afraid to experiment - the number of games they put out in the 80s and 90s was huge (Chainsaw Warrior [60 minutes to save New York!] anyone?), and they did things nobody else thought sane like when they put out that game with the cassette of goblin songs you sung along to.

    GW might seem like a great big evil corporation aiming to squeeze every last cent out of pre-teens, but they revolutionised (and continue to revolutionise) the wargaming hobby in so many ways, and a lot of that is their key to success.
    Princess in the streets.
    Princess in the sheets.
    Don't touch me I'm royalty.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorg View Post
    Part of it is that it was nothing like any other game released at the time. It was released in the mid to late 80s in England, and I don't know how old you are or whatever...

    ...Well if you're serious about trying to understand what people like about 40k, you're going to need to do way more research than that.
    Well... based on what I see so far, I'm not entirely certain I want to invest that much effort. But I do appreciate the extensive clarification of the franchise' origins and the reasoning behind various canonical changes. (Even if I'm a little skeptical about the setting's 'uniqueness', given space-skeletons and geiger-esque aliens. Or that recent changes haven't also been marketing-driven, if you assume kids tend to look at the covers and adults tend to read the books.)

    However, I don't see anything there to contradict the idea that the franchise' initial success was largely due to an absence of serious competition, or that its background lore is essentially rooted in a grab-bag of widely disparate and thematically contradictory inspirations that require a lot of inelegant explanatory crutches to work together. And regardless of whether this impacts the wargame, I suspect that a more elegant synthesis of background lore would be helpful for RPG settings, novelisations, etc. (Unlikely as that is to happen.)

    Whatever the best intentions of the creators may have been- and I'm not claiming these are nefarious human beings, or anything- I suspect they are now stuck with the financial and cultural obligations of catering to a vast existing player-base. Even when all those players demand largely contradictory things.

    I say this because I'm also susceptible to a sort of "gotta catch 'em all" impulse when I try to come up with a supposedly original campaign setting, and it would be hypocritical of me not to try and avoid these problems in my own designs and personal projects. (Assuming they ever get anywhere, which is far from certain.) So it's helpful for me to deconstruct this tendency in other franchises, and try to work out if it's more of a curse than a blessing.

    The argument could be made that the overall visual style is "medieval/historical space dudes", which given the overarching theme of fallen/failing empires is rather appropriate.
    Conceivably. But there are other interpretations.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Oh, also, you should totally check this guy out.

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