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  1. - Top - End - #1171
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Well... based on what I see so far, I'm not entirely certain I want to invest that much effort. But I do appreciate the extensive clarification of the franchise' origins and the reasoning behind various canonical changes. (Even if I'm a little skeptical about the setting's 'uniqueness', given space-skeletons and geiger-esque aliens. Or that recent changes haven't also been marketing-driven, if you assume kids tend to look at the covers and adults tend to read the books.)
    More recently, yes - my quibble was with saying it was created by marketing forces. The game is secondary to the miniatures and background really.


    However, I don't see anything there to contradict the idea that the franchise' initial success was largely due to an absence of serious competition, or that its background lore is essentially rooted in a grab-bag of widely disparate and thematically contradictory inspirations that require a lot of inelegant explanatory crutches to work together. And regardless of whether this impacts the wargame, I suspect that a more elegant synthesis of background lore would be helpful for RPG settings, novelisations, etc. (Unlikely as that is to happen.)
    Well I did just say that there was nothing like it at the time which means no competition and acknowledged the wide variety of inspirations

    Whilst it may help RPGs, I personally find it to be a strength that you can take bits and pieces you like as a focus and still fit into the 40k mould. Having run a 40k RPG myself it works fine.

    I think being able to constantly evolve the lore has worked in 40ks favour for its longevity. Battletech had a very concrete lore, and I know it made the Mechwarrior RPG sometimes hard to play as you would go one way then the next official expansion could take the game another way.
    Similarly after the Clans were beaten the plot went rather off the rails and ruined a lot of what made that universe good IMO.
    40k doesn't change much, and even when it does they tell you that you're free to ignore it as what used to be true is still just as true as the new stuff.
    Infinite possibilities for everyone with a common frame of reference - nothing seems more helpful for a writer to me than that!


    Whatever the best intentions of the creators may have been- and I'm not claiming these are nefarious human beings, or anything- I suspect they are now stuck with the financial and cultural obligations of catering to a vast existing player-base. Even when all those players demand largely contradictory things.
    Perhaps, but aside from not erasing anything GW doesn't really seem to pay much attention to what players want (in terms of background) aside from churing out Marines by the bucketload.


    I say this because I'm also susceptible to a sort of "gotta catch 'em all" impulse when I try to come up with a supposedly original campaign setting, and it would be hypocritical of me not to try and avoid these problems in my own designs and personal projects. (Assuming they ever get anywhere, which is far from certain.) So it's helpful for me to deconstruct this tendency in other franchises, and try to work out if it's more of a curse than a blessing.
    They have painted themselves into a few corners, though it's come more often when they've tried to fit things together (like making everything either the C'Tan or the Old Ones' doing).
    I personally find that 40k works best because bits of it are terribly vague and you just go with the flow of it.


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    It can be 'up to 50 years', and I assume that's from the other side of the Galaxy to Terra. Shorter trips, obviously take a shorter time.
    In agreement with Cheesegearm '50 years but only on the outside' is very much an extreme example. There are well known, well documented and well travelled routes between many systems through which, for example, a 4 week journey will reliably take 4 weeks, inside and out.

    This is why they are well known, well documented and well travelled, and why Rogue Traders can make any kind of living. Certain areas of the Warp and quieter and more reliable than others, and they get used like 'shipping lanes'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    ...Really? That is pernickity. ...I assume that's a word because I've never heard of it and spellcheck doesn't like it.
    An Americanism which means 'Pedantic'. Like 'Aluminum' to mean 'Aluminium', or 'Color' to mean 'Colour'. /Colonies-And-Empire-in-joke.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear
    Sigh face. That's not how it works anymore. The Third War for Armageddon - which is 3rd Edition, no longer in print, no longer matters.
    We've disagreed about this before. Just repeating your stance (which, as I've previously mentioned, I find bizarre) is not going to convince me.

    A great deal of stuff was written in White Dwarf (and elsewhere) about the campaign and it was good, entertaining stuff. Nothing has overwritten or contradicted it. Why ignore it? If you don't like it, go ahead – but don't prescribe the same for others.

    If you can find a place where GW put out some sort of policy statement explicitly negating all the stuff that came before the current edition, then I'll agree that you're correct, that's GW's policy. And then I'll continue not to care, because Tom Kirby can't get into my house and he can't tell me which ways I'm "allowed" to have fun. I don't think you can find such a statement though, and everything I've found in looking for one indicates the contrary - that GW have a laid-back, sensible attitude. The fact that there have been various retcons down the years to fit new stuff in doesn't mean that one must ignore everything that isn't current, just because it might get retconned!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear
    Priests of Mars, published earlier this year, is considered one of the best non-Heresy books to come out of Black Library in a long time
    I love this attitude. “Considered” by who, the Man Booker Prize committee? Or is it just the Cheesegear association for sounding stuffy?

    We're talking about cheap pulp fiction here. If you like it, great. Read it, enjoy it. Don't try to use it to police others' enjoyment; that's just sad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2
    a setting ultimately manufactured by a marketing department with near-total disregard for aesthetic and logical cohesion?
    I've got to disagree with the “marketing department” part, same as the others – if you look back through the majority of the game's history, the background was written by enthusiasts and hobbyists. It's only (relatively) recently that you could attribute any executive decisions about the lore to pure marketing concerns, and even then I wouldn't be certain.

    Lack of cohesion, yeah, absolutely. All those different contributors had different ideas about what was cool, and were inspired by different pieces of pop culture in different time periods. They were adhering to a central vision (I think I saw one of the original team once describe it as “what if we got to space and then reverted to feudalism, rather than going all Star Trek”), but the central vision was explicitly broad enough that you can fit just about anything in it. The Imperial Guard are a great example - you say they come across to you as WW2, but they can equally well be from the Zulu Wars or the Hunnic empire. And for every regiment that's a direct historical rip-off, there's another that is some weird and wacky 40K specialty all of its own (the Savlar Chem-Dogs, Necromundan Steel Spiders, Armageddon Steel Legion, etc...). Variety and anachronism are in many ways the first rules of the setting.

    If you want to reform that, make something more consistent and rational, go ahead. Me, I think 40K is great the way it is precisely because it's so broad and disjointed. It's not the setting for the next Iliad or anything, it's a setting for games, and gamers get their narrative ideas from all sorts of derivative places. 40K's great strength for me, as a GM and as a tabletop player, is that it's designed in a way such that I can pump my army or my plot full of little touches from all my favourite things (Lovecraft, Dickens, tall ships, all sorts of stuff) and the setting still retains a very distinctive and recognisable flavour.

    I recognise right from the outset that 40K is futuristic fantasy, not science fiction. I go into 40K looking for something different than if I read, say, Asimov, and I enjoy it for its differences – if I wasn't looking for all those anachronistic flourishes and touches of silly, black humour, I'd be reading something else. I admire the amount of work Phil Sibbering has put into trying to rationalise the setting to himself, but I think it's like putting rockets on a horse and cart and bringing it to a motor race – you're not going to make the setting a rational, entirely self-consistent place unless you're willing to strip away everything but the barest bones, and at that point, why not just start from scratch?
    Last edited by LCP; 2012-11-13 at 08:07 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #1174
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Could anyone be so kind as to throw up the list of medals from Battlefleet Gothic? I'm trying to figure out what decorations my Ex-Navy Rogue Trader might have.

    I managed to find a few lists online, but nothing with descriptions of the things- What the heck is the Ebon Ring? Worst comes to worst I can appropriate the IG medals and none of the other players will notice, but attention to detail is fun.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    "EBON RING — Award for exemplary service"

    .....Apparently.
    According to the ONLY online source that I could find about the damn thing - even the Battlefleet Gothic rulebooks, available free from the GW site, have been stripped of fluff right down to the bone.

    As for the rest.... So little has been written about the Imperial Navy, it's very hard to say for sure. In the same position, I'd probably throw my hands up, declare 'screw it' and use the Imperial Guard ones, because I don't imagine there will be a lot to go by.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2012-11-14 at 07:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    Could anyone be so kind as to throw up the list of medals from Battlefleet Gothic? I'm trying to figure out what decorations my Ex-Navy Rogue Trader might have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'd probably throw my hands up, declare 'screw it' and use the Imperial Guard ones
    Indeed. There are very, very few sources that deal with the Navy, and if Battlefleet Gothic isn't a thing anymore, the best you're going to do for 'Void Stuff' is probably in Rogue Trader, and if it's not in there, you're probably unlikely to find it.

    I'm sure the Ex-Navy RT in Priests of Mars has some kind of award, but I forget what it is and I wouldn't know where to find it unless I read the whole thing again.

    But, yeah. The Imperial Guard ones are probably best. If the GM can't find a correct source, it's highly unlikely that his players will be able to find one either.

    If it was my game, my Ex-Navy RT would have one of the medals that are traditionally awarded posthumously.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    You could also probably get away with making up some up as well. Maybe he earned the Winged Saber, for leading a boarding party that reclaimed an imperial ship from the Orks, or the Preserver's Ribbon, given to him by representatives of the Adeptus Mechanicus for valiantly fighting back an onboard fire that threatened a bank of centuries old cogniator units. Perhaps he earned the coveted Iron Chain for his part in putting down a mutiny.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Yup and although I think you can use the general idea behind the Imperial Guard medals you'd have to remane them for the navy, them being completely different militaries with a decent sized rivalry.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    If he's REALLY important, start throwing around words like "Emperor's" "Imperial" and "Aquilla". It's a big deal if any of those are attatched to *Anything*.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Here's a list of Navy-centric (although some are used for the Imperial Guard as well) medals and honours I could find;

    [Segmentum] Honorifica
    There is one for every major Segmentum (i.e; Obscurus Honorifica), and those who have one of these are genuine Heroes of the Imperium, and have served with valour in several engagements in a Sector.

    Order of the [Sector] Star
    There is one for every Sector (i.e; Order of the Calixis Star). It is typical for an Officer to acquire several of these different Stars before he receives an Honorific from the Segmentum, and only a true Hero of the Imperium would have such a thing.

    Order of the [Sector] Void
    One for every Sector, a lesser achievement than the Star.

    Order of the Knights of [Segmentum HQ]
    A high Command award.
    Solar => Mars
    Obscurus => Cypra Mundi
    Tempestus => Bakka
    Ultima => Kar Duniash
    Pacificus => Hydraphur

    i.e; Order of the Knights of Cypra Mundi.

    Seal of [Segmentum HQ]
    Of lesser achievement than an Order, but, within the ranks of the Navy, and within the Segmentum, this can allow the bearer to do pretty much whatever they want.

    Medallion Crimson
    The same as the Imperial Guard medal.

    Bronze Halo
    This is similar to the Adeptus Astartes 'Iron Halo'. Given to exceptional Captains of vessels.

    Otherwise, the Navy has the same Medals as the Guard.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Wow, that's fantastic, Cheesegear!

    I'm thinking the Medallion Crimson, the Triple Skull, and the Knight's Cross would be appropriate for my character, given his Navy background. I'm not sure he's done quite enough to be worth an Order of the Sector though.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    I'm thinking the Medallion Crimson, the Triple Skull, and the Knight's Cross would be appropriate for my character, given his Navy background. I'm not sure he's done quite enough to be worth an Order of the Sector though.
    I'm under the impression that a Seals and Knightly Orders are basically a badge that says that you're part of a super-secret club that can know particular things about Segmentum space. Which Astartes Chapters operate in the area, which Battle Barges you're not supposed to record in your logs when you pass them in the Void and so forth and what you can have in your cargo holds without any questions, etc.

    The others are just medals and awards.

    Also, Knight's Cross for a Navy-man? 30 consecutive days of Void combat? *shudder*. Or maybe it was something like a boarding action and it took them a month to get their ship back. A Knight's Cross is cool, but for Void combat...That's both awesome and terrifying for what would make that happen.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-16 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I'm under the impression that a Seals and Knightly Orders are basically a badge that says that you're part of a super-secret club that can know particular things about Segmentum space. Which Astartes Chapters operate in the area, which Battle Barges you're not supposed to record in your logs when you pass them in the Void and so forth and what you can have in your cargo holds without any questions, etc.

    The others are just medals and awards.

    Also, Knight's Cross for a Navy-man? 30 consecutive days of Void combat? *shudder*. Or maybe it was something like a boarding action and it took them a month to get their ship back. A Knight's Cross is cool, but for Void combat...That's both awesome and terrifying for what would make that happen.
    That's precisely what I wrote for his backstory, actually. Got boarded by Orks, spent the better part of a year leading the remaining crew on a slow guerilla campaign to retake the command center and vent the atmosphere, then spent a long time sitting with the handful of survivors in the command room. It seemed like a much more original use of the Dark Voyage calamity.

    EDIT: Ship in question was a cruiser with a Tenebro Maze, so there was plenty of space and plenty of hiding spaces. Not that they spent much time actually hiding- This particular captain viewed the power sword as the solution to most problems.

    Actually, that might be worth clarifying- does Active Combat imply that that there was, for a 720 hour long period, always at least one gun firing, or would it be satisfied by simply always being within the vicinity of the enemy, and skirmishing and attacking and retreating several times a day?
    Last edited by shadow_archmagi; 2012-11-16 at 10:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    If you interpret "void combat" to mean "combat in the void" the siege of a ship (since ships are essentially cities" could very well last for 30 days. Other than that, wow, 30 days in constant combat, that's nothing to scoff at.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Actually, that might be worth clarifying- does Active Combat imply that that there was, for a 720 hour long period, always at least one gun firing, or would it be satisfied by simply always being within the vicinity of the enemy, and skirmishing and attacking and retreating several times a day?
    I assume it means your life was in serious jeopardy, several times a day, and during the night. It's kind of a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by GolemsVoice View Post
    since ships are essentially cities could very well last for 30 days.
    Kind of. A ship, even a really big ship, is still just a metal box in space. Then also remember that a ship's life support is also very tightly controlled. If your ship is boarded, and you're a handful of survivors, and your enemy knows where you are and they have access to bridge, you're buggered. To not only survive 30 days in that environment, and, to achieve victory, you're kind of amazing.

    Void Combat is any engagement not on a planet where exposure to the Void is possible. So, it includes on ships and in Space Hulks.

    Other than that, wow, 30 days in constant combat, that's nothing to scoff at.
    That's why you get a medal, and a Knighthood.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-16 at 10:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Sounds about right for a Rogue Trader, then. I'll talk to my GM about it- I figure the awards are probably already factored into his Peer (Military) trait, but it'll be a nice bit of fluff for the GM to be able to show NPCs who either are (Or, terrifyingly, are not) impressed by them.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    So,

    Knight's Cross; Led his men for at least 30 days of active combat.
    Medallion Crimson; Was mortally wounded, should've died, but didn't.
    Triple Skull; At least two thirds of his men died.

    I'd also throw in a Steel or Iron Aquilla, just to show that he also achieved victory in the end. Or perhaps a Ribbon Intrinsic, if he had help. The Triple Skull is not a good medal, especially on a CO.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2012-11-16 at 10:47 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So,
    Knight's Cross; Led his men for at least 30 days of active combat.
    Medallion Crimson; Was mortally wounded, should've died, but didn't.
    Triple Skull; At least two thirds of his men died.

    I'd also throw in a Steel or Iron Aquilla, just to show that he also achieved victory in the end. Or perhaps a Ribbon Intrinsic, if he had help. The Triple Skull is not a good medal, especially on a CO.
    Ooh, the Ribbon Intrinsic would be an excellent one, since it'd be something all the survivors of the event would share, right? He's already got sort of a band-of-brothers thing going on with the men that he lead on that particular day. For things that require a great deal of trust, he's liable to choose one of the NPCs that survived the battle over one of the PCs that wasn't there.
    Last edited by shadow_archmagi; 2012-11-16 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So,

    Knight's Cross; Led his men for at least 30 days of active combat.
    Medallion Crimson; Was mortally wounded, should've died, but didn't.
    Triple Skull; At least two thirds of his men died.

    I'd also throw in a Steel or Iron Aquilla, just to show that he also achieved victory in the end. Or perhaps a Ribbon Intrinsic, if he had help. The Triple Skull is not a good medal, especially on a CO.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    All of them.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Alright, now I really want to hear the story about this guy, because it sounds like he earned all these medals in one engagement.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Alright, now I really want to hear the story about this guy, because it sounds like he earned all these medals in one engagement.
    You mean, like...

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    That's precisely what I wrote for his backstory, actually. Got boarded by Orks, spent the better part of a year leading the remaining crew on a slow guerilla campaign to retake the command center and vent the atmosphere, then spent a long time sitting with the handful of survivors in the command room. It seemed like a much more original use of the Dark Voyage calamity.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by Carry2 View Post
    Now, sure, it's fair to say that some hive worlds are less crowded than others. But let's just take the confirmed examples of planets like necromunda and holy terra as being completely covered with sprawl, with competition for space so intensive that the oceans and mountains are almost completely gone, which I'll assume are covered... 200 metres deep. If 1% of terran land surface built up to 50 metres high at 25 cubic metres per person + support infrastructure gives you 2 trillion human beings, then 2 x 100 x 4 = 800 trillion human beings. So, those two planets together might conceivably house more human beings than all other non-forge/hive worlds in the imperium combined. (I'm aware that much of terra's land surface is given over to the imperial palace, but these are still markedly conservative estimates.)

    For the most part, the only primary sources I can cite are wiki entries, but unless they have been telling me great big porky lies, I see no other way to square the statement that "Hive Worlds contribute the vast bulk of the recruits for the Imperial Guard" and "The violent gangland lifestyle which most residents are forced to live means they are already hardened and experienced in warfare. Almost every recruit will already know how to handle a gun." (If the Imperium isn't drafting guardsmen from a given world, that's probably a sign they don't really control it.)

    So, I don't know. Perhaps you have had access to materials which utterly, utterly contradict the general impression that these sources have conveyed to me. If so, I apologise for besmirching the imperium's good name.
    For reference, the contiguous US occupies about 1.58% of the total surface area of the Earth (cite:Wikipedia). Lexicanum states that the vast majority of a Hive World's food needs to be imported.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    The thing about 40K is, sure, you can ask a whole heap of questions about why it doesn't make sense, you could even improve on it to make lifestyles better, and we all know for a fact that there are things we can do IRL that the 40K-verse can barely even comprehend (i.e; IRL we already have technology to build Railguns, which the Tau have, which are essentially the 'pinnacle' of technology for 40K).

    The thing is; It's 40K. It literally coined the term 'GrimDark'. There are several systems in place that actively prevent things from making sense. The High Lords of Red Tape Terra, the bass-ackwards way the Inquisition runs, the way that the Ecclisiarchy actively does everything it can to keep populations stupid, the inexorable vastness of the Galaxy making trying to do anything not on your planet taking at least a decade, competition for resources and overpopulation - and everything that goes with that. The mentality that [My Casualties] - [Your Casualties] = [Positive Number] = Glorious Victory! is likewise mind-boggling.

    Point is; 40K does have a lot of plot holes like the population figure for a Hive World doesn't quite make sense (except for a population that size is unsustainable in several ways - some of which have already been mentioned in-thread as canon - and that's why it actually does make sense). Congratulations! You found one! Have a cookie.

    Problem is, when you start trying to fix it, to make the canon System not horrendously broken in several negative ways for the citizens and civilians of the Imperium, you stop being GrimDark, you stop being 40K.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    And, anyone who tries to fix any of the inherent problems runs into too much resistance to do any good.

    The governor who actually managed to create a hive world that wasn't a complete hellhole to live in? They're upping the tax rate on the world, and his only recourse is to secede from the imperium (And we all know how that turns out. SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!).

    A Feudal mining world which makes even the worst interpretation of the middle ages look like paradise? The only noble who tried to improve life for the peasants got killed because the other nobles thought he was up to something.

    Part of the reason the world of 40k is such a nightmare is because, quite simply, it does not take an optimistic view of humanity (Which is ironic, considering the romantic/existentialist* elements of 40k are one of my favorite elements of the 40k universe).

    *OR at least, what little I know of existentialism.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    So I've decided to step away from Heresy for a while (mostly due to a lack of material) and have been reading more 41k material, and am particularly enjoying the works around some the Chaos protagonists who have their own materials (Talos, Honsou, Marduk, Huron, even a bit of Abaddon here and there)

    Is there any (good!) fluff material with a PoV on some of the other well known CSM? Particularly interested in reading about Ahriman, but any of the Thousand Sons might make a good read. Any plans for a series on them, or any of the other betrayer legions?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    The thing about 40K is also that it's often hard to draw the line between neccessarily brutal and unneccessarily brutal. Because a lot of the GrimDark things are, to some degree neccessary for the survival of the Imperium, and the fact that such daily brutality is the key to survival only adds to the GrimDarkness.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Quote Originally Posted by blueblade View Post
    Is there any (good!) fluff material with a PoV on some of the other well known CSM? Particularly interested in reading about Ahriman, but any of the Thousand Sons might make a good read. Any plans for a series on them, or any of the other betrayer legions?
    Atlas Infernal features Ahriman as the main antagonist. While the book doesn't focus on him so much, he is a major part of the book - and what an excellent book it is!

    But that's about it. All the other novels that deal with Chaos you've pretty much already mentioned.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

    Questions!
    1: The 1000 people per codex compliant chapter is just the 10 companies isn't it?
    How many does that make in total including extras like Techmarines, librarians and Apothecaries?

    2. Am I missing any other kinds of specialist Space Marines?
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