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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DrDeth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Mistake 1- running a Evil game.

    Mistake 2- allowing eps for “solo” battles. Unfair to the other players, makes for spotlight hogging and grandstanding.

    Mistake 3- Deux ex Machina without a warning. His deity should have warned him when he prepared Unhallow that morning.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Killer Angel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
    Mistake 3- Deux ex Machina without a warning. His deity should have warned him when he prepared Unhallow that morning.
    (Leaving aside that DeM is a different thing...)
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    DrDeth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Well, look at it this way. His deity doesn’t want him to get squished, right? So if the other guys deity can get involved, the PC’s deity can at least send a warning during morning prayers. After all, note that a deity grants spells then.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
    Well, look at it this way. His deity doesn’t want him to get squished, right? So if the other guys deity can get involved, the PC’s deity can at least send a warning during morning prayers. After all, note that a deity grants spells then.
    Dread Necromancers don't pray for spells.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    DrDeth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Yep, and Paladins can’t normally summon major deities. Any time there is a risk of DexM and instant death, the DM needs to give hints and warnings.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Yep, and Paladins can’t normally summon major deities.
    This didn't happen, so I don't understand what you're getting at.

    Any time there is a risk of DexM and instant death, the DM needs to give hints and warnings.
    What DexM? The player did something stupid and ate the consequences.
    Last edited by Helldog; 2011-12-08 at 01:02 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
    Any time there is a risk of DexM and instant death, the DM needs to give hints and warnings.
    Normally I'd agree, but given the fact that death is only a very minor inconvenience on the plane in question, I have to side with the DM in this instance.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    I suppose the unhallow thing is not really something to worry about in this discussion, because even if he didn't do that, the fact remains he wanted to fight this paladin.

    The way I see it is, this is a Paladin. I view Paladins as the holy, long arm of the law for matters like this.

    I am still going to say that if a CE players wants to fight someone with out reason, that is what a C/E guy would do. Its not like he came up to the stronghold of church.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post

    Mistake 3- Deux ex Machina...
    Not that my opinion counts for all that much, but if this character even was a servant of any evil deity, that deity may simply enjoy watching the character get squished, knowing that the character would not lose anything of importance.

    The evil deity in question may choose to warn the player in question, but if the deity knows that Kord will not take the slander against the deity personally... there's no motive for the deity to act.

    Also I believe it's Deus, the latin word for deity... not Deux (I'm sorry, but that bugged me for some reason)

  10. - Top - End - #70
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Lol. Just lol. Cheating at at duel is decidedly chaotic, but no one said this was cheating and Kord is not lawful.
    He was shaping the battlefield in his favor. I think that's cheating.

    And cheating is not chaotic. It is dishonorable. Dishonorable does not have an alignment, but the most common dishonorable alignments are CN, CE, and NE, and every assassin from the LG rebel to the CE death-for-hire isn't averse to using poison.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Ah, you did the right thing. The player brought this on himself.

    If he feels he's gonna get pwned in the now-suddenly-fair duel, tell him he can always run away. He's already demonstrated that he's an honorless SOB, what's he got to lose by showing cowardice? And since they ended up on this plane by accident, they don't have any reason to stick around...

    Besides, I wouldn't give XP for this duel. It's not advancing the plot, and they're doing it in a realm where death isn't permanent for either party. There's nothing at stake and it doesn't add anything to the story.
    Last edited by Lost Demiurge; 2011-12-08 at 02:52 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    My main question would be whether the player had any indication that he was within a god's actual domain. Keep in mind, planes are big. As in, infinitely big. Just because you happen to be on Ysgard doesn't necessarily mean you're within a god's actual domain, and the upper planes in general get attacked all the time. Gods don't really have the time to pop in and smush anyone who happens to do something unpleasant in the entire plane, because stuff like that is constantly happening. Literally, constantly. Because again, the whole 'infinite' thing. At any given time, somewhere on the infinity of that plane, there is an attack going on. Maybe a small expeditionary force of Tanar'ri or some Slaadi that wandered over to cause trouble or something.

    Now, if the player didn't bother to look around and try to identify exactly where he was on the plane at all, and just challenged the first dude he ran into to a fight like this, and therefore happened to be within the actual domain of Kord, then no, doesn't seem unfair at all, but if he had some time, looked around, etc, and got no indication whatsoever that he was actually within the domain of a deity, it's entirely reasonable to assume that he's just somewhere on the plane that isn't part of any particular powerful being's domain, so there's nobody around to get pissed.

    And if he wasn't literally on Kord's doorstep, within his actual domain, then I would say yes, he was treated very unfairly. There's no reason at all why a god would even be aware of such an activity on some random location in an infinite plane, or why he would care if he was. Remember, the plane as a whole is always under attack. Always. At most, it should, possibly, attract the attention of some celestials. After a period of time. Once someone has had time to notice the unhallowed land.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Occasional Sage's Avatar

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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Versity View Post
    So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?
    Not overly harsh at all, I'd say. I'd say that a non-death punishment would have brought the lesson home more though, something that lets him duel and drives him to fail, badly. It would probably have felt less punitive to the player, who frankly earned all the punishment you handed out.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonutBoy12321 View Post
    Isn't there a rule among deities about intervening with mortals?
    I think any such rule would be held in abeyance when the mortal goes to the offended deity's home plane. C'mon, even if Bob has a restraining order against me I'm not going to be expected to sit on my thumbs when he breaks into my house!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    This is why Know (Religion) is a skill. I can barely keep track of any deities that aren't within a step of LG, honestly...
    Just sayin', CG is one step from LG.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Versity View Post
    So in a recent game my neutral-evil aligned party ended up on the Heroic Plains of Ysgard. Now this was not my fault as they randomly rolled for another plane while on the Astral Plane.

    Now the CE Dread Necromancer player proceeds to piss off a high lvl Paladin npc and challenges him to a duel. I knew his plan in an instant. He wanted to kill the npc in a solo fight to reap the xp. He's done it before.

    The paladin agrees to allow him time to prepare for the duel and so they seperate. He then proceeds to cast Unhallow so as to have an advantage when he unleashed his undead from his bag of holding.

    I then declared that an avatar of Kord appeared, taking offence that someone would dare try to defile his plane and proceeded to squish the offending necromancer.

    Now my player complained that I was picking on him but I simply replied that a good aligned god who would know that killing someone on his plane was not permanant (due to the true ressurection effect) would take a seriously dim view of someone desecrating his landscape and would intervene.

    So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?
    Er, the whole "unleashing a previously unmentioned and unrelated avatar of a god" is kind of poor form.

    I'm not saying that his plan was genius, mind you...merely that, from a story point of view, you want to sort of foreshadow these sorts of things.

    The offended paladin agreeing to give him a full day of preparation is more likely problematic. I would have had the paladin arrange clear terms to the duel with him, and I would not assume the offending player has both choice of ground and weapons. Things such as nomination of seconds is excellent. In short...if it's going to be a duel, it's going to be a duel, not a quick fight on his terms for bonus xp. This'll not only make it a more memorable encounter, it will make fairly explicit what's going on. If the paladin's second is obviously someone of considerable power, it would be quite obvious to the necromancer that cheating is a poor strategy.

    Note also that, as the paladin is extremely likely to have ranks in knowledge religion, and have a rather good idea of what this plane is like, he might want some sort of stakes for this duel above the idea of merely dying and being true rezed. Winner takes weapon, or some such.

    The above all curbs any real abuse without pulling an avatar out of nowhere, or even having to explain how people noticed his misdeeds.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    The easiest solution, as previously mentioned, is that he gains no XP from the fight, as there is no risk or threat by fighting a paladin. Even if he dies, he gets True Rezzed the next day for free.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2011-12-08 at 03:50 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    The outcome was probably necessary, but the means were overkill. I would have just had the Paladin waste him.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occasional Sage View Post
    Just sayin', CG is one step from LG.
    Er, no. NG is in between, so it's two steps.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    The easiest solution, as previously mentioned, is that he gains no XP from the fight, as there is no risk or threat by fighting a paladin. Even if he dies, he gets True Rezzed the next day for free.
    That's an absolute neccessity of the setting. Most of the people on that plane duel or fight each other fairly frequently and many have been there for THOUSANDS of years.

    If most fights are roughly even, and on average they die once every 2 days in a fight, then that means they also win an average of one fight every 2 days and if the fights give full XP they advance in level roughly once a week. (Slightly faster actually, but I'll round down.)

    So, say that paladin arived a mear 500 years ago as a weak little level 1 character. If duels like this give XP then he's now ONLY level 26,001 or so.

    Note that this is the conservative estimate. He could easily have a few hundred thousand more levels.

    Don't award XP for this sort of thing, or do so and also declare that the setting has all its problems short of Pun Pun solved by the MILLIONS of level 50,000+ characters from that single plane.

    The 3.x XP rules NEVER state that killing something or winning a fight gives XP! Overcoming challenges and making progress give XP. If the fight doesn't contribute to anything or accomplish anything it doesn't give XP, EVER.

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    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2011-12-08 at 04:02 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by prufock View Post
    The outcome was probably necessary, but the means were overkill. I would have just had the Paladin waste him.
    This is how I feel. Was this paladin so weak he couldn't handle a meddling necromancer?

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Helldog View Post
    This didn't happen, so I don't understand what you're getting at.


    What DexM? The player did something stupid and ate the consequences.
    DexM= Deus ex Machina, ie direct deific intervention. Which is exactly what happened, deserved or not.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth_Versity View Post
    OMG, please let me sig this!
    I don't mind.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Er, no. NG is in between, so it's two steps.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    While amusing (and appropriate), the problem is that it came out of nowhere.

    Kord definitely would notice (his portfolio is battle, this was a formal duel, and the DN was cheating in a way that would offend a Good deity quite vehemently), and him stepping in is probably okay.

    But the DN should've at least had a shot at knowing that casting unhallow in a god's backyard is a bad, bad, bad idea.

    Still. Funny. And the problem isn't much of one, since he's getting a true resurrection anyway. Player should chalk it up to a lesson and move on.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    oh pleaseohpleaseohplease can I sig this? this is brilliant!
    Someone wants to Sig something I said? AWESOME!

    Of course! :D
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
    DexM= Deus ex Machina, ie direct deific intervention. Which is exactly what happened, deserved or not.
    The player did something stupid and there were consequences. Nothing more.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    He was shaping the battlefield in his favor. I think that's cheating.

    And cheating is not chaotic. It is dishonorable. Dishonorable does not have an alignment, but the most common dishonorable alignments are CN, CE, and NE, and every assassin from the LG rebel to the CE death-for-hire isn't averse to using poison.
    Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

    Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

    Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.
    Even if this is accurate, just because his alignment can say "balls to you, rules" and ignore them doesn't mean there aren't going to be consequences for doing so.

    Like everyone else said, he planned on breaking the rules of a duel, in the backyard of the God of Battle... really, he's damned lucky that he didn't just get banished from the Plane on the spot(or worse if Kord happened to be having a bad day, or feeling vindicitive, or any other thing that would make him respond harsher than necessary for a first time offense.)

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

    Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.
    Like Talentless said. Your alignment doesn't give you a free pass on certain things.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Player feels he's being treated unfairly

    Quote Originally Posted by Talentless View Post
    Even if this is accurate, just because his alignment can say "balls to you, rules" and ignore them doesn't mean there aren't going to be consequences for doing so.

    Like everyone else said, he planned on breaking the rules of a duel, in the backyard of the God of Battle... really, he's damned lucky that he didn't just get banished from the Plane on the spot(or worse if Kord happened to be having a bad day, or feeling vindicitive, or any other thing that would make him respond harsher than necessary for a first time offense.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jade Dragon View Post
    Like Talentless said. Your alignment doesn't give you a free pass on certain things.
    Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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