Player feels he's being treated unfairly

[RedWarrior0]

@People saying Cheating == Chaotic: Why the hell (no pun intended) was FCII basically 90% "I don't care what you thought the devil said, he's going to plant a knife in your back at the first chance."

In this case, the DN was doing (more or less) what a pit fiend in his place would have done.

[Mantarni]

Lawful does not mean they follow your rule systems. It means they adhere to a code of conduct that may as well be orange and blue morality scales.

Which may involve backstabbing someone at first opportunity, provided you still stick to the letter of your agreements with them. Or provided you never stick to the letter of your agreements with them. Or that you subjectively twist them until it means what you want.

[RedWarrior0]

Mine point exactly.

I do believe an avatar of Kord was a little overkill, but whatever.

[Taelas]

Unless i was explicitly stated in the agreement of the duel, it's not cheating. Even if it was, the CE DN has no obligation to follow the rules.

Another thing. Cheating is breaking rules. Chaotic means you say fiddlesticks to such rules.

Lawful characters can cheat, and Chaotic characters can see cheating as wrong. It is more likely to go the other way, but it is far from set in stone.

[Talentless]

Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.

Would he really not care?

Just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they will always say "Screw you rules" to everything everywhere.

In your example of how a chaotic character wouldn't care about the rules, does that mean that a chaotic good character should completely ignore someone raping a child across the street because the rapist is breaking the rules? YEAH! GO CHAOS!*

*Ridiculously over the top analog is to drive home the point that just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they despise all rules in any form whatsoever... unless the alignment happens to be Chaotic Stupid, but that is something else entirely.

[Killer Angel]

Well, look at it this way. His deity doesn’t want him to get squished, right? So if the other guys deity can get involved, the PC’s deity can at least send a warning during morning prayers. After all, note that a deity grants spells then.

But in this way, it's almost like to have your DM/God that, during the morning prayers and spells' selection, tells you: "nah, bad idea, pick something else", because he knows what kind of danger you're going to face...

[Snowbluff]

Would he really not care?

Just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they will always say "Screw you rules" to everything everywhere.

In your example of how a chaotic character wouldn't care about the rules, does that mean that a chaotic good character should completely ignore someone raping a child across the street because the rapist is breaking the rules? YEAH! GO CHAOS!*

*Ridiculously over the top analog is to drive home the point that just because someone is chaotic doesn't mean they despise all rules in any form whatsoever... unless the alignment happens to be Chaotic Stupid, but that is something else entirely.

Except that evil chaotics will use rules... to serve their own needs. Sure, a CG person would stop a racist, even if it was against the law. A LG would have difficulty with this, to the point of dilemma (this is assuming it's lawful rape, but its your example ). A CE person wouldn't care. Nothing is keeping from joining in.

Expecting a CE character to not do something for his own survival/advancement is ludicrous. If a CE DN is asking you for a duel, should should probably expect him to prepare for your worse. If that would include what you would consider cheating (which he could easily justify. Being a jerkass isn't the only thing bad about being CE. They very often they are good at justifying their own twisted logic).

Anyway, my point was that Kord is CG. He believes in the battlefield, not the petty duels of a (presumedly, you don't have to be lawful stupid to want a chance kill a DN) LG paladin and a pesky DN whole trampled a little grass earlier. If anything, the DM could of given the Paladin an item to make the fight interesting (rod of Dispel Magic or something? Something that could un-Unhallow the ground?) rather outright killing him. If he was going to do that, I would of suggested a Sphere of Annihilation to port itself inside of him. You don't have to write lines for a sphere, which would of saved time.

[Longcat]

Minor nitpick: How is using Undead in a duel cheating? He's a Dread Necromancer, and creating/utilizing undead is part of his class features. If he borrowed minions from someone else, that would be cheating.

Or is the Paladin not allowed to bring his special mount in a duel? Is that cheating too?

[Darth_Versity]

Expecting a CE character to not do something for his own survival/advancement is ludicrous. If a CE DN is asking you for a duel, should should probably expect him to prepare for your worse. If that would include what you would consider cheating (which he could easily justify. Being a jerkass isn't the only thing bad about being CE. They very often they are good at justifying their own twisted logic).

You seem to be under the assumption that just by looking at his character you would know he is a CE Dread Necromancer. Well the paladin could detect evil, but beyond that he had no other knowledge. You can't prepare to fight a chaotic spellcaster when you don't know that your opponent is a chaotic spellcaster.

[Jornophelanthas]

Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.

From what I read from the OP's posts, Kord acted against the Unhallow, specifically. Which you yourself admit is not unexpected.

Aside from this, Kord would also be angered (but probably not enough to directly intervene) by any character performing any action (whether chaotic, evil, lawful or neutral) that would go directly against the spirit of a duel.

(For example, if a paladin and a necromancer agree to a duel where they will not hit each other in the face, and the necromancer hits the paladin in the face, Kord (as a CG deity) will laugh at the paladin. Since hitting each other in the face does not go against the spirit of a duel.
However, if the necromancer tries to use undead or PC allies to overwhelm the paladin in a fight after agreeing to a one-on-one duel - a chaotic action, and also evil if it involves undead - this would anger Kord (though perhaps not enough to intervene), because turning a duel into a lynching does go against the spirit of a duel.)

The Chaotic alignment of a god or character could simply mean "I like the thought of X so much, I will do anything to protect it". X does not have to be chaos itself, but could also be wine, battling, a specific colony of woodland creatures, or one's own reflection in the mirror.
In Kord's case, his being CG means that he likes displays of strength and prowess in battles played in fairness. Because he is chaotic, he does not need a set of rules for this; the good intentions of the participants should be enough to invoke this fairness.

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care.

He is a Chaotic Good deity of competition and fair play. Cheating isn't against his alignment, it's against his portfolio. It's like a Chaotic Evil deity of motherhood, like what's-her-name in the Orcish pantheon; sure, she's Evil, but you can bet that she'd respond to someone killing Orc babies in her backyard.

[Worira]

Minor nitpick: How is using Undead in a duel cheating? He's a Dread Necromancer, and creating/utilizing undead is part of his class features. If he borrowed minions from someone else, that would be cheating.

Or is the Paladin not allowed to bring his special mount in a duel? Is that cheating too?

Uh, yes, it is. That's kind of the point of a duel.

[candycorn]

Except that Kord is chaotic too, he wouldn't care. I would understand him acting against an unhallow or a spellcaster, but breaking rules is not something he cares about.

Alignment doesn't define actions. Actions define alignment.

A carefree deity of personal strength and independence? That's chaotic, even if he's also a strong believer in a fair fight or honor, or good. In this case, he's a big supporter of good, and fair, honorable fights.

You can support freedom, and still be in favor of fairness.

[Darth_Versity]

Alignment doesn't define actions. Actions define alignment.

A carefree deity of personal strength and independence? That's chaotic, even if he's also a strong believer in a fair fight or honor, or good. In this case, he's a big supporter of good, and fair, honorable fights.

You can support freedom, and still be in favor of fairness.

This is one of the major problems with alignment. To many people see it as a strait jacket that confines your actions when really its just a general guide to how you handle things.

A good man could commit murder under the correct circumstances and an evil person could save someone from a burning building. Just trying to order things with good/evil lawful/chaotic is not enough to cover a whole spectrum of personality traits.

[Occasional Sage]

That's not an alignment problem; that's a misuse of alignment problem. Although the alignment=personality fallacy has been around long enough that I guess there's no functional difference.

[killem2]

Uh, yes, it is. That's kind of the point of a duel.

Ok, so a duel is just a melee fight.

[Slipperychicken]

The punishment is losing >1,000gp, 24 hours plus True Rez time, and earning the extreme disfavor of a diety. If he didn't know this would get Kord to smack him, he should've gotten a warning (Know: Religion would be perfect for this). I can't say he should've known Kord would smack him, because I can't keep track of deities myself.

[Occasional Sage]

The punishment is losing >1,000gp, 24 hours plus True Rez time, and earning the extreme disfavor of a diety. If he didn't know this would get Kord to smack him, he should've gotten a warning (Know: Religion would be perfect for this). I can't say he should've known Kord would smack him, because I can't keep track of deities myself.

It's not Kord; it's being on a Plane made of Goodness. There isn't a deity around that isn't going to be cranky about that sort of behavior, on any part of the alignment spectrum, unless *maybe* there's some obscure Deity of Apathy out there I've never heard of.

But meh.

[Darth_Versity]

The punishment is losing >1,000gp, 24 hours plus True Rez time, and earning the extreme disfavor of a diety. If he didn't know this would get Kord to smack him, he should've gotten a warning (Know: Religion would be perfect for this). I can't say he should've known Kord would smack him, because I can't keep track of deities myself.

Yeah... He skipped strait over knowledge: religion, instead putting ranks in profession: whore (the character is female)

[Gullintanni]

Just going on record here...

Lawful means you follow the laws of the authority you recognize. This can be a king, in which case, the laws you follow will be the laws of the land, or this can be you, in which case, you follow a personal code of conduct. Either way, the result is consistent behavior, in which case you can probably say that a Lawful character will behave consistently.

A Chaotic character, on the other hand, doesn't cling to principals or value laws. Instead, they do what is most beneficial in the moment, regardless of law or principal.

Depending on how Kord feels about people desecrating his home, he may see it as personally beneficial to eliminate said character. There is the issue of whether or not Kord would be aware of it, but...given that Ysgard is a good aligned plane, casting Unhallow might arguably be equivalent to dropping black paint on a white sheet of paper. No matter how small the drop of paint, it's gonna stand out.

You can flavor your intervention that way, and Kord might just happen to have an avatar in the area. I think it's pretty heavy handed myself, but somewhat justifiable. A more reasonable response would've been to say, "...a swarm of battling celestials witness your desecration of holy land, and are closing in. Prepare yourself". Then roll initiative, and watch as the combat rounds pass and your Dread Necro gets reduced to fine mist.

[Tyndmyr]

Mine point exactly.

I do believe an avatar of Kord was a little overkill, but whatever.

Basically, this. Nah, you don't want to reward him with piles of xp for his shenanigans...or the game devolves into MMO grinding.

But there are more subtle and story appropriate ways to bring him up short than bampfing in a diefic avatar.

That's really what it comes down to.

[Helldog]

A Chaotic character, on the other hand, doesn't cling to principals or value laws. Instead, they do what is most beneficial in the moment, regardless of law or principal.

No. Neutrals do what is beneficial. Chaotics do what they feel is right, they often act on emotions and impulses.

[Gullintanni]

No. Neutrals do what is beneficial. Chaotics do what they feel is right, they often act on emotions and impulses.

So...then Chaotic Neutrals do what they feel is beneficial? I tend to think of Neutrals as being pragmatic. What's beneficial is part of that, but so is what's rational and what's irrational.

Chaotic tends to react in the method that is most suited to their occasion. They're spontaneous, but not necessarily emotional. Emotion vs. Non-emotion really has nothing to do alignment at all. Chaotic is not a license to act randomly, but rather, a license to pursue the best possible ends given their personal outlook (be it good, neutral or evil), and the rules be damned.

YMMV as always mind you, just my 2cp.

[Helldog]

So...then Chaotic Neutrals do what they feel is beneficial? I tend to think of Neutrals as being pragmatic. What's beneficial is part of that, but so is what's rational and what's irrational.

Chaotic tends to react in the method that is most suited to their occasion. They're spontaneous, but not necessarily emotional. Emotion vs. Non-emotion really has nothing to do alignment at all. Chaotic is not a license to act randomly, but rather, a license to pursue the best possible ends given their personal outlook (be it good, neutral or evil), and the rules be damned.

YMMV as always mind you, just my 2cp.

Nope. That is Neutrality on the Chaos/Law axis.
Lawful character does what someone or something (higher up, authority, local law, tradition, ect.) tells him. He's more likely to do what is expected of him, then what he himself wants.
Chaotic character does what his heart, emotions, conscience tells him. He;s more likely to do what he feels is right or what he wants to do.
Neutral character does what is best in the moment.

[Occasional Sage]

Yeah... He skipped strait over knowledge: religion, instead putting ranks in profession: whore (the character is female)

On the one hand, I really hope this is snark rather than an actual recount of the character sheet.

On the other hand, if this is factual then the problem is more fundamental than the events of the duel would suggest, and much easier to solve.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You don't play alignments though. You play characters. This is why the real world is morally gray. This is why Exalted, a system without alignment, is morally gray.

And gods? Chaotic people don't let people walk into their home and knock things over, and for gods, the entire plane is their home and they don't want it messed up.

[killem2]

I have some questions for most here, not because I want to stir stuff up, I'm a new DM and while I don't have any CE people, I am genuinely curious. So let me understand:

We have a CE Dread Necromancer (not really sure the difference from a normal necromancer but no matter), and we have a plane that the God of, is C/G and it is a battle plane.

We have some Goodie-two-shoes Paladin that is drawn into a duel with the Necromancer and given a day to prepare.

The necromancer uses the power of pain, death, undead, and what not to win his battles. At his core, he's still a wizard, and thus this is his power.

The Paladin, uses a limited arsenal of cleric spells, but also bolsters the ability to wield weapons and shields and armor. They also come with the ability to shrug off most undead, and heal if needed.

The DM comes in and states, ok you defiled my plane with your unhallow spell and the god crushes him or avatar or whatever.



So, I have to ask, if he didn't cast unhallow, would you have allowed him to fight he paladin? This is what I want to know for sure. Because in my mind, unless you have some story reason for banning a player for accepting a duel with what in all reality is his arch nemesis, should be nothing to worry about.

The EL scales fairly well, if he would have solo'd the paladin does that mean he kills the paladin, or is the duel to the death? It doesn't say if it is. I assume it is. Assuming doesn't mean much.

So you have a necro manacer who MIGHT have gotten a possible free level, but you make it sound like he wouldn't be earning it.

Is a necro vs paladin completely imbalanced? Did you make an inferior paladin, and are paying for it after someone wants to test it?

I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.

I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.

[Taelas]

People need to learn the difference between Chaos and Law, I think.

Chaos favors freedom. Law favors order. Law abides by tradition, is reliable, puts society over individuals, and generally serves to restrict and protect. Chaos promotes freedom, is flexible, puts individuals first, and generally serves to set free and allow people to support themselves.

It has nothing to do with a code of conduct, or, for that matter, rules. A code of conduct or a rule can be Lawful, but they sure as hell can also be Chaotic.

Impulsiveness is chaotic, whereas carefulness is lawful. That does not mean a Lawful character will become Chaotic because he acts impulsively. Alignments are not straight-jackets, and people do not act only according to their alignment. People are complex that way.

[Talentless]

I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.

I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.

The thing is, "You Kill stuff, you get XP" is not a hard and fast rule. It even explicitly states in the DMG that players get XP for overcoming challenges and making progress(which is decided by the DM.)

So if a fight has no point other than just a Duel on a metagame basis to try and get more XP, the DM can decide that he doesn't get any XP for it. Especially on a plane that true res everyone who died on it a day later.

Also, it isn't because of the Duel that the Avatar of Kord was dropped on the player. Like has been said before, it was entirely because he essentially took the Hallowed ground of a plane of GOOD, and *tried* to reverse it(essentially turning it into a patch of the Abyss or something) that a CG Deity took offense.

[Gullintanni]

-snip-

Nevermind. This is becoming a full-blown alignment debate. These never end well.