Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

[Veklim]

Replies and patch-fixes will come tomorrow afternoon. Finally have a couple of free hours hanging about!

[DerTollUdo]

It has been so long since I got to get a chance to work on this thread. Fear not, it has not been forgotten!
Things that need addressing,
Force Blast: is the damage ok? Are the riders ok? How can we make the Shatter rider a reality, feat or otherwise?
How are we going to word the display and wall acting like wall of force without saying it is wall of force?
Prc: quick PEACH:So to get in you are forced to go TK 5/ Rogue 1 at least, then you Prc...it can work, but I don't like forcing people to multiclass to get cool things.
I don't know anything about the ambush feats and don't have time to check them out now, will do so later.
Ambusher: Looks cool. 1 (7) simple,and useful for an assassin type. 4 (10) Might be really strong, would need playtesting. 7 (13)Eh? Don;t know if worth it. Not a style I have ever gotten to use. 10 (16) Should state if it applies to people immune to being flat footed.
Sneak Attack: Might need to be every 2 levels. You are giving up alot of features to be in this class as opposed to TK or Rogue.
Move Through Darkness: I like it. Maybe change the name to Shadow Jump or say it counts as that for prereqs. Although this is a superior version since it is unlimited movement over time.
Far Trick: You will have the first ability upon entering this class. Don't need that line.
Larceny: Cool, but maybe too late?
Helping Hands: Odd, but kinda cool
Dark Highway: I like.
Predators Gaze: Strong. The bonus to hit is very big.
Capstone: Cool. Do you have a method of determining the targets HD or is it just intrinsically known?

Alright. Off to work. Lets pick up and finish this! Oh, and I have begun work on an epic Prc for the Tk. Basic concept is expanding on the belief that TK effects things by redefining what a thing is, i.e. space, time, emotions, thoughts, other abstract things you guys suggest. It is really cool.

[Veklim]

Prc: quick PEACH:So to get in you are forced to go TK 5/ Rogue 1 at least, then you Prc...it can work, but I don't like forcing people to multiclass to get cool things.

I don't see much of a problem with it honestly, it's a better way of paying for a speciality than a feat or two and some skill requirements. This way the player has to really work for it, in AND out of character, to make it work for them. PrCs are all about refined methods and specific archetypes, which you can only do otherwise by multiclassing in many situations. At least this way there's a nice big payoff, what other PrC out there can do what this guy does?

Ambusher: Looks cool. 1 (7) simple,and useful for an assassin type. Thankyou, was looking for a good way of meshing the TK and Rogue ideas, this seemed the best method.

4 (10) Might be really strong, would need playtesting. That's why the sneak attack dice are reduced, and besides, we all know how few creatures past a certain point are actually vulnerable to sneaks, at least you get more use out of your limited class ability this way. It's still no ubercharger, not by a loooooong way!

7 (13)Eh? Don;t know if worth it. Not a style I have ever gotten to use. This ability addresses 2 issues:
Issue 1. Ambushes are kinda lame for players, you get little tactical benefit from them and the strategic benefit only amounts to a single standard action, which is REALLY crappy unless you're a charger or a spellcaster.
Issue 2. Stealth attacking is rarely worth it without magical help, since the moment you attack you lose the benefits of your stealth in most cases. Sniping rules gave a glimmer of hope, but only apply to ranged attacks with weapons, and make it hard to succeed the check unless you're a fair way out of combat, which brings it's own troubles more often than not.
This way, there's a reason to lay in wait for your prey, and you can remain effective after the first strike.

10 (16) Should state if it applies to people immune to being flat footed.
Good point, although I'm unsure as to whether I should allow it to affect normally immune creatures or not...that's one for debate methinks!

Sneak Attack: Might need to be every 2 levels. You are giving up alot of features to be in this class as opposed to TK or Rogue.

Yes, this is true, but it's also true that you may use your full sneak attack dice AND apply ambush feats to attacks at the same time. This more than makes up for the difference!

Move Through Darkness: I like it. Maybe change the name to Shadow Jump or say it counts as that for prereqs. Although this is a superior version since it is unlimited movement over time.

Saying it counts as Shadow Jump isn't a bad idea actually, but I called it Move Through Darkness because the ability is inherently much better, scales somewhat and requires Hands to use. This means that although it shares a lot superficially, mechanically speaking the 2 abilities are radically different.

Far Trick: You will have the first ability upon entering this class. Don't need that line.

Unless you're a TK Savant.

Larceny: Cool, but maybe too late?

I dunno, maybe, maybe not. It comes in at a later level than the spells which screw with skill balance, but it's a nice point to augment those skills, since until about level 10 the mundane skills are OK on balance, it's only after that where magic starts negating the need/point of high skills, and this serves to redress the balance IMO.

Helping Hands: Odd, but kinda cool

Wanted to give these guys a better group-based utility since they sacrifice so much of it to enter this class in the first place. It was originally a feat idea but I decided against that because the TK gets so many nice tricks already.

Dark Highway: I like.

This and Move Through Darkness were the first abilities I conceived when I started to put the class together. Glad you like it

Predators Gaze: Strong. The bonus to hit is very big.

True, but then again it's a level 8 PrC ability... Would it help if I added the line 'You may only have one creature designated in this manner at any one time.'? I like this ability a lot, again, it's a group utility which makes up for the lack of other funky TK tricks and abilities. Suddenly you don't need everyone using True Seeing (or similar) to be able to cope with invisible/concealed enemies.

Capstone: Cool. Do you have a method of determining the targets HD or is it just intrinsically known?

I think it should be intrinsically known, but only in relation to this ability. In fluff terms, you reflexively understand how much 'pressure' to apply in order to throw your target through planar boundaries in much the same way you learn to reflexively understand how much force to put into throwing a ball at a target of varying distance or the like.

Alright. Off to work. Lets pick up and finish this! Oh, and I have begun work on an epic Prc for the Tk. Basic concept is expanding on the belief that TK effects things by redefining what a thing is, i.e. space, time, emotions, thoughts, other abstract things you guys suggest. It is really cool.

Sounds cool, I await with baited breath! We do indeed need to finish this project, it's been an amazing amount of work already but that's all the more reason to get it done!

[DerTollUdo]

Lol so you reply to your class but ignore everything else? I see where your loyalties lie :P Its a far way from being done, but I am really excited for the epic prc. Got any more ideas for it?

[Veklim]

Hehehe, I've been rumbled!

I'd like to see an epic level TK doing crazy stuff like collapsing entire cities and throwing giants about. Would be kinda funky if they gained a certain amount of control over the elements too, as in weather and tectonic control, not fire, cold, etc... I can see an epic TK creating a fault line or birthing a volcano, summoning a blizzard or a hurricane, maybe even crashing celestial bodies into the earth eventually.

I'm unsure exactly what you had in mind though, will have to wait and see what you've got, then suggest from there methinks!

Been thinking about Force Blast too, the way I see it, the main problem is with multiple blasts in a single round. The damage for a single blast isn't OP at all, but the fact that you can make one blast per Hand sends it spiralling into OTT damage/round. My thought was simple really, you're limited to dealing 1D4/level in any given round, so if you choose to split the blast over several targets then you may only do a maximum of 1D4/level in total, i.e. a level 16 TK decides to blast 3 enemies in a round, he chooses to deal 5D4 to 2 of the targets and 6D4 to the third. They all take a -4 to the attack roll.

Would that fix the trouble you think?

[DerTollUdo]

I was actually more reffering to the new fix for force blast. I really like the new one and want opinions on balance. I also figured a way to put in flinging objects using the fix so that isnt broken anymore.
You may also propel an object with this power. It may not weigh more than 25 lbs/level/Hand. It becomes a single target only ability. And the damage is 1d6/Hand +1/25 lbs. You may not use more Hands than you have TK levels.
I think that would fix the issue. Should the Hands used for lifting the object also be the ones that determine the d6s? As is max damage at level 20 if you have a really heavy object that weighs 10000 it would deal 20d6 + 400 to a single target...maybe not so balanced if the Hands are combined...but I dunno, thoughts?

As for the epic one that is definitely a path I would love to make available in the class.

Oh another thought for your prc. Say someone was a pure tk, would they continue to gst 1/level?

[Veklim]

I was actually more reffering to the new fix for force blast. I really like the new one and want opinions on balance. I also figured a way to put in flinging objects using the fix so that isnt broken anymore.

Oh yeah....heh! The fix works fine to me, ran a few numbers and compared with other stuff about, the fix drops damage massively but keeps the ability relevant enough. Still don't like Shatter being on the riders list though, it should be Sickened, Confused, Nauseated, Stunned, Paralysed. The shatter thing would be best used as a separate target thing. If you use Force Blast on an enemy, you choose a rider from the list, if you use Force Blast on an object (or enemy which is vulnerable to Shatter) then you may get the Shatter effect instead of a standard rider. Covers more options, makes more fluff/mechanical sense but keeps the Shatter option in there. I agree the image of a TK shattering enemy kit is super-sweet, but it doesn't work in my mind as a rider option when all the others in the list are status effects, this way we get the best of both worlds!

You may also propel an object with this power. It may not weigh more than 25 lbs/level/Hand. It becomes a single target only ability. And the damage is 1d6/Hand +1/25 lbs. You may not use more Hands than you have TK levels.
I think that would fix the issue. Should the Hands used for lifting the object also be the ones that determine the d6s? As is max damage at level 20 if you have a really heavy object that weighs 10000 it would deal 20d6 + 400 to a single target...maybe not so balanced if the Hands are combined...but I dunno, thoughts?

I'd be tempted to go the other way around entirely, using the mass of the object to calculate the damage, and drop the amount you can throw with it. Let me explain:
Mass Limit.
25lbs/level + 25lbs/Hand yeilds a far more reasonable number. Sure you can lift/drag a damned sight more than this, but you're throwing the object at high speed, not moving it about laconically. The 1 Hand/level limit looks good to me, and works this way round too.
Damage Calculation.
If we were to give the effect a damage of 1D6/25lbs +1/Hand, then we'd avoid a lot of headaches.

Using the above, we could see a level 20 TK using the maximum of 20 Hands being able to throw an object weighing up to 1000lbs, which would mean 40D6+20 damage (60-260 damage), a far more reasonable number. Don't forget that objects may be thrown beyond your TK range, which still makes this a very valid option. We essentially get 50lbs/level for 2D6+1 damage/level at the maximum, which makes it better than an Eldritch Blast, but not horrifically OP. I doubt ANYONE could (justifiably) complain about it then! If it still looks too much to you then drop it to D4s, but I don't think that's necessary personally.

As for the epic one that is definitely a path I would love to make available in the class.

Let's get the base class ready first eh?! I already jumped the gun once by making the PrC, sorry!

Oh another thought for your prc. Say someone was a pure tk, would they continue to gst 1/level?

TK Affinity [Su]
Shadow Hand class levels stack with Telekineticist levels for the purposes of calculating your total number of Hands, and for save DCs, Telekinetic range and other effects relying on your Telekineticist levels...

Yes they would.

[Veklim]

OK, just updated the Shadow Hand as per discussions (check the changelog). Looking a bit better yet?

Had any more thoughts on Force Blast yet? Really wanna get this thing finished, or at least as close to finished as any 'brew ever is! I've got grey hairs since the start of this thread!

EDIT:
OMG!!!! Epic idea for Epic TK!
TK Constructs! They work much like a souped-up version of Astral Constructs, but the ability C list would be based on TK abilities; Force Blast slam attacks, Reactive Shielding, 360 Blindsight, spontaneous flight, all those funky things!. Someone damages your TK Construct? No worries, just add more Hands! Someone utterly destroys your TK Construct, make another one next round! You could stat them out so that you require at least 10 Hands/Construct, but add extra abilities for every 5 Hands thereafter, or something like that anyhow....

Also, thinking of a TK/Monk hybrid which uses their unarmed attacks to launch enemies and enhances their acrobatics with Hands to pull off proper wuxia style stunts. Probably a quick 5 level PrC with no multiclassing required this time (sound better DerTollUdo? )

[DerTollUdo]

More talks of balance with my group today. Will post more later but we have some things to discuss. Also will post 'final' force blast and a new ability that will handle object launching

[DerTollUdo]

Alright, the final fix for Force Blast will be later tonight. But it is basically this: rider list is status effects, shatter comes in at 5. If you chose Shatter you forgo damage and other riders, although you can still target multiple targets.

Object ability will read: you may launch 1 item up to the distance of the range of your Hands. It deals damage equal to 1d6/25lbs +1/Hand. You may not invest more Hands in this ability than levels. Weight cap is 25lbs/lvl +25lbs/Hand. It is single target.

Balance issues that need addressing: Hit die needs to change. It was ok at d8 when the class was less powerful and less full of awesome stuff. Now it needs to be d6, and Pure needs to make it d4 because it adds so much power. Focused Shield should require a Move action to maintain, since it really is basically the best wall you could ever want. They still wonder if it is too powerful to be a move to initiate, and say maybe standard. This topic will need more playtesting. Force Blast and the Object Fling will require line of effect; otherwise you simply trap someone in a box/lockdown and start sniping. They wonder if the class is a tad on the broken side (I disagree) because it is basically the best Battlefield controller out there, and has the capability to deal decent damage.

Thoughts?

[bobthe6th]

I would cap weight at 25 lb/level, as that is level d6+level on a full power swing...

HD could see droping, as it has hit a more castery level, were it used to be a semi gish.

I think I the wall should be a full round, or just a plain old one round action... full round is a bit nicer.

[DerTollUdo]

I think the weight is fine at 25/lvl +25/Hand. End damage at 20 is 40d6+20 to a single target while requiring a standard attack roll. Avg dmg is 160. Not negligible, but by no means the end all be all.

The HD really should be dropped. I had the class described to me as "an extremely focused caster. And when they go pure, they become a caster who tends to have the upper hand in combat."

I do not see it being any longer than a standard action, ever. I posed the question before as to whether people felt it should be move or standard, and they sang out loud that they felt it should be move. As is: it does everything a wall of force can do, plus more. It also has a larger weakness than wall of force in that it can be walked through by a though enough foe. Side note, what spell could you see being used to get passed a Focused Shield? Because if you fly, then box yourself in with a super bullrushing shield, you are now immune to most things. That is a little op. So, what spell?

[Veklim]

Sphere of annihilation perhaps? Dunno...dropping the HD makes sense though, I can see that and don't disagree. With regards to the action thing, if we make it a standard action then we should add it to the abilities allowed for the feat tree I think. I still have little problem with it being move, it only deals damage passively after all, and we know for a fact that teleporting past the shields is a good and simple way of bypassing them anyhow, that IS the standard approach to any wall-spell negation, and one of the plethora of reasons that spellcasters win over mundane...

I also agree that PTK should become D4, I seem to remeber suggesting we drop PTK HD already...

Weight limits are fine at 25/lvl+25/Hand, just so long as we keep the damage tied to weight, it deals a moderate amount of damage and is honestly just about right for an essentially at-will ability at any given level. I can live with the shatter thing as it is, although my veiws have been put plainly enough on that already. May type up a mock of what I'm suggesting for you both to peruse, but it's fine as-is I guess. Just not happy about it!

Everything else seems to be looking OK though...thoughts on Shadow Hand update would be appreciated, then perhaps we can convince bob to re-post the material we have as a new post for fresh critiques..?

[DerTollUdo]

How do you teleport past a shield that is shaped to deny them space to go through?

And what thoughts on the shatter thing? I want it to work, while also being balanced lol. Such a hard line to walk.

[Veklim]

In the case of it being a personal shield, it's not exactly an option, true. I'd argue any force spell would have a chance to get through, maybe use a modified caster level check (caster level + spell level + spell penetration (if any) maybe?) vs. bullrush of the shield...? Need to discuss that one and balance up numbers somewhat methinks.

Quoted from an earlier post of mine:

Still don't like Shatter being on the riders list though, it should be Sickened, Confused, Nauseated, Stunned, Paralysed. The shatter thing would be best used as a separate target thing. If you use Force Blast on an enemy, you choose a rider from the list, if you use Force Blast on an object (or enemy which is vulnerable to Shatter) then you may get the Shatter effect instead of a standard rider. Covers more options, makes more fluff/mechanical sense but keeps the Shatter option in there. I agree the image of a TK shattering enemy kit is super-sweet, but it doesn't work in my mind as a rider option when all the others in the list are status effects, this way we get the best of both worlds!

The shatter idea is cool, but thematically off-key, and as worded it's far too powerful. It should almost certainly be single target if we're gonna allow it to target magical stuff, and saying it ignores composition of the object means you could attempt to shatter anything and everything, and that IS broken, no two ways about it.

Make it a separate ability, which happens instead of a rider when targeting an object and make it a single target option instead of the radius one. No ability out there short of overly-broken 8th/9th level spells should be able to strip a character of all kit, magic and mundane alike, in a single shot.

[DerTollUdo]

Remember that time I had that was going to be used to update? Yeah, I lost it too. Tomorrow morning should yield the time for the fixes. If you think of anything not yet mentioned, post so I can get to it...

[DerTollUdo]

So updates have been made.

I would appreciate if someone would check over the whole class to check for consistency and other errors or things that need balancing. :)

Changes made (for the lazy :P)

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HD: d6
Skills: Removed tumble. You are mentally nimble, not physically.

TK Hands:

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Upon using any of the abilities of this class that require Hands, every Telekineticist has a display. This display is unique to every Telekineticist. The display can be just about anything. Some Examples are: glowing eyes, vibrating waves of energy from yourself, visual Hands, or anything else the player and DM agree upon.

The Hand dependent abilities require you to be conscious to maintain. Therefore, if the Telekineticist falls unconscious all their Hand dependent abilities end.

Force Burst(SU):

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As his limbs started exploding, they wondered why he just sat there. Then he started cackling. And finally he just fell over before his head exploded...


You focus you telekinetic ability in an attempt to rip the target apart from the inside. As a standard action that requires 1 Hand at least, you may make a ranged touch attack to one target with a blast that deals 1d6+1/level. You may invest more Hands to add 1d6/Hand up to your max level in the class. You may split up the blasts across multiple targets. Each additional target takes the same damage as the first, however each target also imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the to hit roll.

The target must succeed on a fortitude save when hit or suffer one of the following Rider effects for 1D4 rounds. You may only have one rider per use of this ability. This ability only functions within the range of your Hands. This ability effects undead and other creatures normally immune to fortitude saves, although the riders may not have any effect.

Riders:
{table=head] Level | Rider Effect
1 | Target is Sickened
5 | Target is Confused
10 | Target is Nauseated
15 | Target is Stunned
20 | Target is Paralyzed
[/table]

This is a force effect and requires line of effect.

Forceful Fling:

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The first sign of the wandering Telekineticist would have been the tree, upside down in the keep's main tower. Then of course there were the cows...OK, what was left of the cows, all over the town square. Though, the thing that really stuck in the minds of Griftshire's people was the day the prince crash landed, upside down, and slightly exploded, on the pulpit halfway through the holyday sermon. As it turns out, Telekineticists aren't always subtle.


As a standard action, the Telekineticist can launch an object within the range of his Hands. Each object may weigh no more than 25lb/level +25lbs/Hand invested up to your Telekineticist level, and requires the use of at least a single Hand. The object travels up to 10ft/level and this movement may take it outside of the Hands range.

The Telekineticist makes a single standard ranged attack. The object deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage (DM's choice) depending on it's weight up to 1d6/25lb (minimum 1d6)+1/Hand. Regardless of the item launched, you do not take a non-proficiency penalty for this attack. Weapons launched with this power deal damage according to their weight unless you are proficient with them, at which point you may deal normal weapon damage (and damage type) instead of damage by weight. The critical threat for objects used this way is 20/x2. Any enchantments or abilities the weapon/s may have are applied as long as you are proficient with it. The keen enchantment, or any similar ability involving critical threat ranges does not apply. A flaming burst weapon would always consider it's threat range as 20/x2.

If holding an item with Mental Strength that could be used for this ability, you may use the Hand holding it in the Force Blast, and maintain your hold on the item after the blast so long as it is still in the range of your Hands.

Additionally you may use this ability to destroy objects. Starting at level 5, instead of flinging the object you may focus your power inwards. This causes the object to suffer the effects of a Shatter spell except as noted here: The save DC is 10+1/2 lvl+cha mod, and you may affect any composition of material.

Focused Shield

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There is no limit to the amount of material the barrier can support.

[Veklim]

Looking good with the updates dude, couple of minor points:

The target must succeed on a fortitude save when hit or suffer one of the following Rider effects for 1D4 rounds. You begin play knowing only one rider effect (sickened), but gain access to other effects at the indicated levels, and may choose freely between any riders you know with each use of Force Burst. You may only have one rider per use of this ability.

I put the necessary line in bold, just to clarify and actually state clearly how the riders are gained/used.

Weren't we going to allow the Shatter aspect to affect Construct creatures as well? It stipulates only objects just now, perhaps state that Constructs may be targeted at 12th level? Gives more progression to the ability and helps fill a quiet level.

Several places in the text where Force Blast is referred to, but since the name has changed, these need to as well:

Critical Thinking:...At level 11 weapons with which you are proficient used in Force Blast get their normal critical threat range.

Ghostly Hands:...At 12th level, your abilities become capable of affecting ethereal objects and creatures. Objects thrown using Force Blast must be ethereal to do so,

Disrupting Throw:...You may use your Force Blast ability, or any of the abilities you know through Far Trick.

This here, in the Enhanced Discipline feat entry, has slipped into the wrong place in the entry. I should be in the 'Benefit' section, before specific entries are listed.

...You must be psionically focused to gain these effects...

Will go over more thoroughly later dude, gotta get back out to work now!

[DerTollUdo]

Since I typed that all up at midnight, I feel I can get away with the errors :P

And will try to make those changes. That post has hit 50000 characters already. Had to move magic items and reconfigure some formatting to make it fit lol.

EDIT: Alright, got it all to fit. Reworded some of the beginning and changed Forceful Fling to Force Fling.

And so you like the split abilities for Burst and Fling?

[Veklim]

Yes, I likke them separate. Also makes feat abuse harder since you can only focus on one of the two options now. Edits look good!

[DerTollUdo]

So I have made more discoveries about things that need changing lol.
Force Burst/Fling will now expend your psionic focus. This brings their power in line. Also makes them no longer have a better eldritch blast lol.

And reevaluating the Savant: would it be too much trouble to convert it into a prestige class? As is it has strong power and doesnt sacrifice much. It also gets broken when the capstone comes into play.
I also need to reword Ghostly Hands. It is supposed to be incorporeal not ethreal at level 12

[Veklim]

I dunno about the PrC thing, they've been built as integral piece out/piece in for the 20 level spread...

They do sacrifice all the following:
Medium Armour Proficiency
Martial Skill
Critical Thinking
Far Trick

I propose that if we removed Force Burst and Force Fling as well, they'd probably come back on track.

As far as the other changes have gone, all looks to make sense and does indeed help rake back the throttle a bit!

[DerTollUdo]

Maybe. But the ability to be able to teleport in and out of antimagic fields can break worlds. And EX mind probe? And other spells the become ex can do some very silly things...

[Veklim]

They only have one power of each level up to level 5, and they're limited uses a day, yes they become (Ex) but I don't think any of them break much as a result, especially when you compare them to what a straight TK, or a Pure for that matter, can do as (Ex) themselves.

I look at the TK as a specialist, the Savant feature replaces this speciality (at least a lot of it) with a partial speciality it one very particular branch of one other discipline. If I had offered a choice of powers, or allowed more than one of each level, then it would be too much. As they stand now, the Savant is more limited than a beguiler for combat choice, they top out at Tier 3 without a doubt, they can't break a game with (Ex) teleport when there's Gates, 9th level Summons and Wishes floating about. They don't even get that many options. A Beguiler has more combat options for powers and abilities for pity's sake!

[DerTollUdo]

Honestly, I haven't explored the feel of the savant fully. My DM finally got around to reading the class in depth because I told him it was pretty much done lol. And he kinda freaked out about it. Perhaps just reword the beginning and write out clearly everything you lose? And I feel they might need to lose Burst and Fling, or maybe TKFighting. Otherwise the sacrifice is minimal...in therms of utility anyway. The biggest thing they lose is Far Trick. But they gain magic powers and cool trinket abilities. Perhaps they should lose Mind's Eye for their 5th level abilities? idk...just thinking here

Claws of the Beast is a little op seeming. In my high power game (remember that is where things go crazy with balance, and we need to prevent brokenness) I would be dealing 3d6+20 per hit, and have Hands left to do other things.

Constructive Hands needs to be reworded for the Shield part. As is, it is doing something the class already does, but worse. Perhaps if they get to shape it for free instead of investing 1 Hand to shape? Or let them make shields that don't have to be continuous? Like many little shields, for the cost of one big one...would make a great insta-maze or other trickery.

[Veklim]

Mind's Eye and TK flight are important to keep the class as a whole in good standing at later levels, losing Burst and/or Fling will bring them back nicely. Most TK abilities are far better than telekinetic powers of comparable level, so giving the Savant 1 power each of 1st to 5th at appropriate levels isn't gonna break anything. In fact, if they lose Burst AND Fling, they theoretically end up less powerful/versatile for much of their career. You could take away TK fighting instead of Burst & Fling, since it's slightly more pokey, but then, honestly, what CAN a Savant do in 90% of the encounters they face? Bare in mind, the Savant was written before that last 2 sets of updates to the class, including the one where everything changed about a bit. I may try and re-balance so it steps in time with standard TK progression, but I still fail to see where the big problem is with the Savant set.

Claws of the Beast isn't too bad, they're natural weapons (harder to optimise outside of specific builds), melee range only (unlike unarmed TK which does much the same thing but with more than 2 weapons and from waaay further away than 5ft), and seriously, if you wanna do much of anything else other than hit stuff right next to you, then you need a couple of extra hands floating about once you've pumped your claws up.

What part of constructive hands is bad? you take 2 10'x10' panes (so 20'x10' area), and you create a HEMISPHERE with a 10' RADIUS. The surface area of the shield is increased immensely. A 10' radius circle has over 50% more surface area than a 20'x10' pane, and this creates a HEMISPHERE (i.e. 10' high in the middle, not flat!). Seriously, not doing enough?!

Perhaps just reword the beginning and write out clearly everything you lose?

I've written it out in pretty standard ACF format, that's about as clear as it gets before bold capitals saying 'YOU CAN'T HAVE THIS!'. The first line of text for each ability tells you what it replaces, didn't think I needed any more than that!

Sorry, bit grouchy today, full-on migraine after a 12 day split-shift not stop work-fest...yes I said 12...

[DerTollUdo]

After further analysis I have decided you are mostly right :) and also should be in a mini coma after working that much lol.

How about they keep burst/fling, but the tk fighting get delayed a step and they dont get the last part of it? So they get the first part at 6 and the third at 16. Still have some options in the fighting tree but they wont have the same power as the full bab fighting tk.

Or just lose burst/fling...

The thing about the spells becoming EX, mostly teleport, is that in a normal game it is fine. In an extremely high magic world, the ability to teleport in and out of antimagic fields is absurd. So I have a new solution/proposition. Change capstone line to this: All at will class abilities become EX. Then add to savant saying: All powers granted from Savant become usuable at will, but these do not become EX.

That makes them get to use their goodies more, and prevents any future ACFs with limited usages from becoming broken. Since the point of the capstone was to make the main class ready for epic, not the alternate features become broken.

[Veklim]

Ok, yeah. Capstone adjustment would make sense actually. I like leaving them with burst/fling and delaying TK fighting by one step, since they already lose critical thinking it makes sense to continue nerfing an area they already take penalties to, instead of removing more stuff.

[DerTollUdo]

Oh life, why you so full of distractions...

In other news, I will be putting the update in soon for the capstone/savant change. I am also going to begin working on my Epic PrC for the class with my friend Magikeeper...who will probably be doing alot of the work because he is better with rules and balance than me lol. It will be fun :) Think I'll post it in a new thread though so it an get more people to look at it...

[bobthe6th]

quick question... was burst ever finished?