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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    The link in your sig seems to work perfectly fine...


    The two biggest things that would need to be changed is that grappling, skills, and alternate-class features are all different from 3.5.
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  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    reveal? blah!!!!!
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    YAY! I decided to check back real quick to see if Bob had decided to reanimate this. Now I can discuss it again!

    As to the question Tur asked, be specific. As the three creators of the class, we collectively have about 0 knowledge of PF, and so you must tell us what would need to be changed so we may make one.

    Things I have encountered in my game with the TK (which btw is now level 19, so epic is near and the Epic PrC I spoke of earlier may soon come to exisit):

    I am playing Pure TK so I cannot comment on TK Fighting as of yet...

    Mental Strength: It came up that lifting objects is not always straightforward and needs an opposed strength roll sometimes. Like when a door is being held down by a weighted mechanism. The quick fix we used was to take the effective str score that would be capable of lifting the object as a heavy load and use that modifier. I personally don't like that method as it is clumsy and that table is not user friendly. So I need suggestions on how we can fix that.

    Trapfinding+minesweeper=a very successful diffuser of traps.

    I do not frequently use Force Blast as my party lives in permanent paranoia thus my Mind's Eye needs to always be on lol. However, the times when I have used it the power felt ok, maybe slightly low but that's not a terrible thing, for large groups and mediocre at best for single targets.

    The flinging has been sadly underused by me, so no playtesting there.

    Same for the Far Tricks.

    TK Flight+ TK fly feat has saved us so many times and proven itself as a major boon to the party.

    Shields are awesome.

    Ghostly Hands has actually just helped us get the upper hand on a wizard hiding in the ethereal realm.

    Lockdown is very useful, although shields are still best for stopping ranged attacks which is for the best anyway.

    Haven't really used Disrupting throw that much because to use it means to use up your focus which means Mind's eye goes down.

    You know, while writing this it has occurred to me that because Mind's Eye requires Psionic Focus, and nothing else expends it. Am I wrong or at one point did we say that Force Burst/Fling expended it? Because looking back at it, it isn't said anywhere. Either way, I have been playing with it as requiring it, and it sucks. I never use FB just because I don't want to drop ME. And I can't see anyone who would want to really. So I say it shouldn't even require Focus, as the class doesn't really use that mechanic anyway. Thoughts?

    And I haven't really gotten to play with Singularity yet. Only got it a few sessions ago and haven't had enemies to fight.


    Yay happy discussions can happen again! Also, Bob, you should update the first post...

    Thoughts Vek or Bob?

    EDIT: Went back through a few pages to respark what we were discussing. We had mentioned a feat to shape lockdown, but never finished it. Let's do that.
    Last edited by DerTollUdo; 2013-03-15 at 08:15 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Ok, we never said that using any ability breaks psionic focus. In fact, every ability requires it be active, due to a line in hands. " To use his Hands he must be psionically focused, although he does not expend his focus by doing so."

    actually, that makes the line in Minds eye redundant...

    What about using charisma? Or 30(as bbs hand of x)?
    Or how about charisma, but increase in size at level 5, 10, 15, and 20 for +16 to effective str for str checks?
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Heya guys!

    With regards to the focus question...we should still use it, because focus covers all the grey areas of durations, effects, consciousness, etc and is part of the psionic system's basis. However, I am all for abandoning the need to expend focus for any class features, that should be the domain of funky feat effects. There's a feat which allows you to store a 'spare' focus in a psicrystal, and there's means and ways for a TK to get one of them, so it's always worth keeping in there, to keep our options open. If we rule that nothing on the TK requires an expenditure of focus, then it's fine to make all the abilities require you remain focused. There are powers, items and effects which can cause a psionic character to lose focus, and these are crucial balance points for a psionic heavy world (like mine) to remain functional and balanced, so keep the focus requirement there, but don't make any class ability expend it either. So sayeth the ranting one!

    Far Trick and Disrupting throw have been invaluable to my playtest group, but I've fought lots of intense and intimate battles with the group, partly in fear of what they would do in an outdoor location with lots of space...regardless of my paranoia, Far Trick has had many BFC uses which have helped the group remove key threats VERY efficiently. The Savant (Maker) has missed Far Trick for combat ability, but has been far more useful outside of combat and more recently for his supreme shield use, and feels it's a fair tradeoff, so I'm happy with the balance on these features.

    Outside of certain theoretical scenarios which I've run numbers for, I've not got to using Singularity either, but the maths would suggest it's a bit weak for damage potential, but strong for BFC effects, and is situational enough to warrant the occasional moment of 'OMG!' destruction!

    OK, this section in Telekinetic Hands half covers the Str score issue, I've added a suggestion to cover this in bold:
    If an ability that uses Hands requires a save, it has a DC of 10 + 1/2 class levels + charisma modifier. If they require a physical ability score (such as an opposed strength checks for a trip attempt), use the Telekineticist's Charisma modifier instead. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter the Telekineticist gains a cumulative +2 bonus to any such ability checks. To use his Hands he must be psionically focused, although he does not expend his focus by doing so.
    I liked bob's idea on the bonus but think +4 / 5 levels is too much so I halved it. Charisma is easy enough to pump, and honestly a TK needs little else if played right, so the smaller the overall bonus, the better I think. Either way, that bit actually covers your issue DerTollUdo, it was always there! .....except the bit in bold, which isn't there yet......

    More feats will be happening won't they.....I tried to give them up, but they just keep coming back....hehehe. I'll look at the Shape Singularity idea again and see if I can crunch something which works...watch this space!

    Good to have the trio back in real time again
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I can see keeping it in the class for purposes of balance. But, I can definitely say that it shouldn't be expended for any of the abilities...which is actually what it currently states. There has been far too many times where I just never used my abilities because I couldn't drop ME. This will make me more than just a defensive character again, YAY!

    As for the feats, I was saying shape Lockdown, not Singularity. Singularity makes no sense to be shapeable, only radial.

    And with the no longer expending focus, I can say that Force Burst/Fling will get much more playtesting with me.

    Far trick will probably not because we are in a super high magic world where everyone has Freedom of Movement and other stuff that makes most of those combat maneuvers less than useful. It doesn't help much that you can make a better bullrush using a shield than Far trick. Perhaps FT needs an investing Hands option? I dunno, that would be your call Vek since you have playtested it.

    That Str score fix works, but seems to be missing part of the benefit of being TK. You have no way of investing Hands in the task to make it better. Mental Strength only let's you invest for weight, and Hands makes no mention of being able to invest. It just seems like since everything else has some mode of investing why shouldn't this? I mean it is supposed to be the strength of your TK, not just your own personal stat strength.

    As for Singularity: IF you had 84 hands and IF you could get 84 enemies to fail that first save you COULD deal 352d6. Although in doing that math it occurred to me. By the fluff of singularity, it is supposed to crush things to a finite point. And if we had all those enemies being pulled into the center point, how are they all fitting? Do they get imploded if destroyed by the damage? Let's say you used 24 Hands to pull 24 people from the farthest points, that yields 144d6 avg of 504 dmg. That would probably kill most people at this point, barring of course regen or other things to prevent bludgeoning dmg. Now that may seem like a lot, and it is, but it's not out of line for an ability at this level. My question is, how are we saying that everyone if fitting together? Or do they just become a massive ball of people?
    Because I just know that the first time I use this, my DM is going to ask me this question and try to rule that since they don't all fit they don't all take dmg or something like that....

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    IF you had 84 hands...
    you could add 42.5*your charisma score to the damage of a telekinetic weapon... hands are a limiter, and I am pretty sure you can only get like maybe 34 at level 20(Pure with a 30 cha and the feat.)
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    My current character has 34 Hands. Once I hit 20 I will have 70. 84 may be the theoretical maximum capable of being used for singularity, but it isn't completely improbable. Admittedly it is almost out of my characters reach, but if I had optimized those stats just a little bit better I might have been able to get there.

    That aside, the question still stands as to how we are handling all the creatures getting pulled to the center. Do they mass up, get imploded, share squares somehow, or some other solution?

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    How? I don't see any way to pull of anything past 24+CHA mod.
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  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Level+level/5+CON modifier. 19+3+12=34. At level 20 the capstone doubles your Hands. So in my case that would become (20+4+12)*2=72. I have the crystal Hand feat though so I lose 1 Hand before it gets doubled so I will only get 70. If I had templates or a race that focused on boosting Con I could have gotten a few more Hands.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    wow... that is a high CON...

    I don't really know much about 20. maybe move the double to epic? like 21?
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    The doubling at 20 is fine. It gives you the power to start standing up to the super wizards before they get epic spellcasting. That really isn't the issue.

    The issue is basically how does singularity handle lots of people going to the same point. Even without the doubling that's still like 30 people being pulled to a single point in space. That's what the issue is.

  13. - Top - End - #433
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I see what you mean Der...I'd say everyone just gets bunched up together, as if they were just piled on the floor essentially (but obviously a ball instead of a pile), but anyone who succumbs to the pressure and subsequently dies from the damage caused should go kinda splutch...meaning for every target who dies within the singularity, the smaller the blob/pile remaining.

    Number of hands still looks pretty well balanced to me, and the doubling is good where it is.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Thanks Vek. So basically its gonna be that every gets as compacted as possible, but if they die they get smooshed? Is this the kind of smooshing that leaves a body that could be resurrected, or do they get something like implosion? I would personally say that either makes sense, but that the implosion one may be a bit stronger. Opinions?

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I'd personally go for the smoosh which may not be resurrected...this is a 19th level ability (2 levels AFTER a cleric gets True Resurrection and a Wizard gets Implosion) after all... They must first be hit by a touch attack, then fail the fort save to be affected, from there the damage has to kill them outright before the effect ends or they succeed a save... if they fail all that, they DESERVE to have their bodies turned to un-raisable smoosh!

    Besides, True Resurrection will still get them back, and the cleric will have had that for 2 levels by the time the TK can do this, I reckon it's fair, balanced (as much as anything at 19th level) and well within reason power AND fluff wise for precedence already set by the PHB.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Nifty. Now comes the fun part of trying to get the wording correct, without directly referencing the spell. Care to help? My brain is a little on the fried side right now.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Edits! It's been a while....

    The Singularity may be used in one of two ways, attraction or repulsion. It may not be used as both at the same time within the same Singularity. These are detailed separately below: Regardless of which way this is used, any creature killed by the crushing damage of a Singularity is instantly reduced to a fine paste leaving no body for the Raise Dead or Resurrection spells. Any mundane equipment carried by a pasted target is destroyed as well.
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  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Hmm. Don't know if I like the equipment destruction part...Let's try this:

    The Singularity may be used in one of two ways, attraction or repulsion (these are detailed separately below). It may not be used as both at the same time within the same Singularity. Regardless of which way this is used, any creature killed by the initial damage or the crushing damage of a Singularity is instantly reduced to a fine paste leaving that can only be brought back to life by a True Resurrection, miracle, wish, or other similar effects. Any equipment carried by a pasted target is unharmed.

    My reason for that being it's supposed to be such fine control of your TK that you can compress gravity to a point, you are only effecting creatures who you decide while all others walk through it freely, so why is the equipment being destroyed too? Sure it may be very, very bloody, but it is still there. And also aside from just saying so what would make it only affect mundane stuff? It just seems to open a door that doesn't really have an answer. *shrug* Thoughts?

    Also, I had asked earlier about your thoughts on if far trick and mental strength opposed str checks should be able to be modified by Hands. Any thoughts on that?

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    OK, how about:
    The Singularity may be used in one of two ways, attraction or repulsion, but not both ways at once (these are detailed separately below). Regardless of which way this is used, any creature killed by damage from a Singularity is instantly reduced to a fine paste which can only be brought back to life by a True Resurrection, miracle, wish, or other similar effect. Any equipment carried by a pasted target is unharmed.
    Says the same thing, just in less words.

    Also considering the idea that you can only have 1 Singularity effective at any one time, I can see that being an issue with a pure TK otherwise, and it's something to expand with epic, i.e. feats which allow more than one Singularity at once and such (thinking ahead you see ). What do you think?

    I agree with your thinking on the equipment, it was a half-formed idea which will work better as another epic feat (ahhah!)...worry not for now! I'll start posting ideas for epic feats and such over the coming days (when I get time to sit and THINK about them a bit!).

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Also, I had asked earlier about your thoughts on if far trick and mental strength opposed str checks should be able to be modified by Hands. Any thoughts on that?
    Yes indeed, that took me a little time to ponder, but I would suggest the following edit to the Telekinetic Hands ability to cover bases:

    If an ability that uses Hands requires a save, it has a DC of 10 + 1/2 class levels + charisma modifier. If they require a physical ability score (such as an opposed strength check for a trip attempt), use the Charisma modifier instead. You may invest additional Hands in any such ability check to gain a +1 / Hand bonus to the roll. To use his Hands he must be psionically focused, although he does not expend his focus by doing so.
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  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Hmm. Not sold on making it just one singularity at a time. It already has enough restrictions, a touch attack and a round by round save, that I wouldn't want to make it the only ability in the whole class that gets limited. Especially since it is one of the cooler ones :). Feat ideas/Epic Prc class abilities being considered for singularity are increasing the radius and damage, maybe even adding something like having it affect more targets. Dunno yet.

    I do like your wording for it though. Flows nicer than mine.

    As for the bonus, I feel it should be +2. Just seems like a +1 isn't a very good return on your investment for this use. For example, one Hand can increase damage by 1d6, increase lockdown save DCs by 1, make shields shapeable, and fly faster. With that, only getting +1 on an opposed str check just seems kinda meh.

    And since you have playtested Far Trick more than I, do you feel it would be balanced to give a +2/Hand for each target sepreately on the checks for it?

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I've used Far Trick pretty effectively without being able to increase the check with extra Hands, so I figured +1 / Hand to the roll wasn't at all bad...I'm unsure how balanced it would be if you made it +2 / Hand, but I don't know if it would make a huge difference. Bare in mind, half the advantage of Far Trick is the way it avoids all the messy counter-attacks which these manoeuvres invariably invite under normal conditions, add too much bonus to the effect and you'll be able to disarm better than a disarm specialist giant pretty quickly, and that's wrong imo.

    The idea of only having 1 Singularity at a time was largely to do with the sheer effort it must take the TK to create it as much as anything else...kinda see your point though. Thing is, would you actually gain much of anything by using more than one Singularity at once anyhow...? Until you've got a true excess of Hands then you'll probably want as many Hands as possible on the same Singularity, since you're more likely to succeed with one very powerful use than several lesser versions...

    Other ideas for epic Singularity stuff include a repulsion blast (same as normal repulsion but the singularity moves about) and something I'm provisionally calling a Traction Singularity which doesn't automatically push or pull, it merely holds everything in place and allows you to move targets around inside the Singularity however you see fit.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    For Far Trick, I could understand your point and that +1/Hand should be fine for those. I was saying +2 for the use of Hands in opposed str checks.

    For singularity, I can see some cases where having multiple would be beneficial. For example, hitting multiple groups that are too far apart for one. You can only make one per turn, but being able to maintain multiple has it's benefits. Like if you took one group, then got jumped by another group.

    Now this scenario has bought up another question: If a target gets pasted, are the Hands that were tied up in that target freed up or do they remain used until the whole singularity gets dismissed? Also should we add into singularity that the only actions they can take are purely mental ones and trying to escape?

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    For Far Trick, I could understand your point and that +1/Hand should be fine for those. I was saying +2 for the use of Hands in opposed str checks.
    You know what, I looked at the numbers and what else you could be doing with those Hands...may as well make it a universal +2 I'd say. My initial fears were put to rest once I looked, it's not gonna break anything, not even close.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    For singularity, I can see some cases where having multiple would be beneficial. For example, hitting multiple groups that are too far apart for one. You can only make one per turn, but being able to maintain multiple has it's benefits. Like if you took one group, then got jumped by another group.
    If that happened then yeah, and I guess you're near-epic already...ok forget I mentioned that in the first place, I'll concede this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Now this scenario has bought up another question: If a target gets pasted, are the Hands that were tied up in that target freed up or do they remain used until the whole singularity gets dismissed? Also should we add into singularity that the only actions they can take are purely mental ones and trying to escape?
    Hrm, to answer both questions in sequence, the Hands should become free the moment that target is pasted, and yes we should state mental actions and escape attempts only for Singularity victims.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Alright, made those changes so far. Have a look and see if they flow smoothly:

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    If an ability that uses Hands requires a save, it has a DC of 10 + 1/2 class levels + charisma modifier. If they require a physical ability score (such as an opposed strength checks for a trip attempt), use the Charisma modifier instead. You may invest additional Hands in any such ability check to gain a +2/Hand bonus to the roll. To use his Hands he must be psionically focused, although he does not expend his focus by doing so.


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    The Singularity may be used in one of two ways, attraction or repulsion, but not both ways at once (these are detailed separately below). Regardless of which way this is used, any creature killed by damage from a Singularity is instantly reduced to a fine paste which can only be brought back to life by a True Resurrection, miracle, wish, or other similar effect. Any equipment carried by a destroyed target is unharmed. When a target gets destroyed by a Singularity, any Hands invested in that specific target become immediately available to the Telekineticist to invest or use.


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    Every round at the start of their turn, affected creatures get a new Fortitude save to escape the effect. Until they succeed on a saving throw to break free any creature caught in a Singularity is only able to take purely mental actions. The save DC increases by +2 for every other target caught in the singularity (so if four creatures were caught inside, the DC would be at +6). For every round they fail this save, the target will take 5d6 crushing damage as the force holding them applies pressure. You may invest more Hands in the Singularity, to increase the damage they take by an additional 5d6/Hand.


    I made it so that they can only take purely mental actions since they get an automatic save each round anyway. Unless we remove the auto save and make it something they must expend an action resisting...that actually sounds better. Thoughts on that?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Edits look good, rubber stamp that!

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I made it so that they can only take purely mental actions since they get an automatic save each round anyway. Unless we remove the auto save and make it something they must expend an action resisting...that actually sounds better. Thoughts on that?
    Hrm...shall ponder this and get back to you...interesting idea!
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Yeah, I realized that would make it much stronger, but at the same time I think it could fit. Not sure about it either, but thought it would be interesting. Any other thoughts or ideas for feats?

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    No, I think a save every round is going to be simpler honestly, I've toyed with ideas for 24 hours now, and nothing else makes enough sense. If it were a case of using an action to resist, then why would anyone NOT resist it? With a save, there's a possibility you can resist, or not. That's the point of saves!

    With regards to feats, I have a couple of ideas brewing which you might like, starting with one to allow exceptions for shaped abilities, so you could fit a hole in a shield, exempt a portion of a lockdown, etc. You'd need to use an additional hand to essentially 'block off' each portion of effect you wish to alter....wording will be the issue on this, so give me time. If it works out, I may have a few other meta-TK ideas floating about, including one for disorienting stirkes...

    Also in mind is the thought I mooted earlier about equipment interaction for singularity...as a thought we could produce a feat which allows you to use singularity on inanimate objects (like a massive area effect shatter) which could potentially destroy even magical equipment. Thought being instead of targeting creatures with the effect, you target objects instead, allowing you to use the ability to disarm a mass of people, collapse foundations, destroy everything of importance within a room, dispose of a cursed magical tome, etc.
    All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by.

    My homebrews Moloques! Sagacious Defender of the Forge, The Open Palm, Sacred Scourge, The Bastion
    Co-Developer of the Mutant Powers Project:
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    The idea of an object singularity for whatever purposes does sound incredibly appealing. I will gladly help with wording once you get the basics of how those mechanics should work.

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    bobthe6th's Avatar

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Seems fun, and totally a reasonable high level idea.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    So, Veklim, had any luck on feat ideas yet?

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