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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    You should consider calling this the Tele-Knight.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    That's amusing :) Why would you say that?

    Also do you have any opinions about the class features? We always love to hear new voices on the matter.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    biggrin Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    That's amusing :) Why would you say that?

    Also do you have any opinions about the class features? We always love to hear new voices on the matter.
    Its a full BAB class with telekinetic abilities. In heavy mithril armor with a spiked adamantine gauntlet and painted tower shield...

    Sounds like a Tele-Knight to me.

    Add in Ride and im sold :P
    Last edited by LordErebus12; 2013-04-05 at 10:09 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Part of the point of the class is be not directly in the combat, but still dealing well with the combat. And it has no fluff reason to have ride :P I'm glad you like it though!

  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Hey, I've been really enjoying this class! I've got some uncertainties about it though, weird little problems I've been coming across. Some are probably subject to taste, like "mental strength is too strong and should be lower numbers" but others I think are a bit more important...

    Why does this class have wild talent, and why do hands require a psionic focus? I don't remember if there are any abilities that use up your psionic focus, so right now it seems as though if anyone touches you with a power point draining spell, this class goes from having a lot of abilities to only having full bab and some martial weapon proficiencies until you rest for 8 hours. This seems like a rather notable weakness that is then totally errased at high levels.

    The class seems like it has a lot of powerful and versatile abilities, more than seems reasonable. Being able to move whoever you want wherever you want with mental strength, even with will negate, is questionable. I'd either break that into bullrush and a "willing targets only" inclusion with the fly power, or just make it... willing targets only again, yeah. You can give your allies a boost up but you cant just move the bad guys into every trap or make them provoke aoos from all your friends at level 1.

    Theres this bit thats been bothering me between force fling and telekinetic wield- When you first get telekinetic wield, you can't use it to wield unusually sized weapons. That seems perfectly reasonable to me, it does mean that I cant just use telekinesis to make up weaponsize wise for being a 7 inch spryte, but that's a good thing. Force fling though... makes no such allowances. There is nothing stopping me from, if I have proficiency with greatswords, to just buy a colossal greatsword and forcefling it everywhere for full C-greatsword damage. I'd only need a few levels before I could do that, and at that stage I could buy 30 of them and never run out. Sure I'd need a way to transport them, but that doesn't sound like a very good counterprice.

    Force fling in particular seems like it could be a great way to make terrain a useful part of combat again, but then isn't. Making the damage just 1d6 per 25 pounds kills the potential versatility and interesting tactics of this ability. What I mean by this is like... I've seen in many books and premade adventure's where it talks about barroom brawls and suggests shoving people into fireplaces or throwing hot bowls of soup or molten silver from the forge at people, and no-one ever used these rules because its pointless so long as you just have a sword. Being able to telekineticaly use improvised weapons, just whatever you have around, would be really cool. You could try to pick materials based on damage, like pointy improvised weapons deal damage as though they were twice the weight of just bludgeoning ones. On one hand this causes the ability to petter out damagewise a bit sooner (I also cut the "if there's more range left" damage on the ability in my experiment) but by high levels you can full attack with dozens of swords at once so I did not mourn the loss of 40d6 boulders at level 20. When I experimented with this system I also lowered the fling weight to 10 or 15 pounds per level instead of 25, to limit me to medium 2h weapons and 1d6-1d8 improvised weapons to fling, so as not to adjust the damage too much.

    Lockdown seems absolutely insane. It doesn't seem like it fits the class flavor, and it seems too powerful on what seems like a pretty overpowered class already at that stage. Disrupting throw and singularity seem similearly questionable, and the 200ft always active blindsight at level 20 is a bit too powerful, but lockdown is the big problem to me. Every part of it seems questionable. I'd rather see if interesting things could be done moving objects around then silly bits of compressing air.

    I think some of these arguements are of a similar vein: there are many fun things you could be doing with telekinesis (like flinging random terrain, or maybe the fancy crafting with the metacreativity acf), but the flinging thing is made boring and instead we focus on more questionable class abilities. Switch it around a bit with less ridiculous magic style versatility like the lockdown and singularity stuff, and more "what can we do with combat everywhere at once" like seeing if more things can be done with far trick, or more details on class abilities with hands like slight of hand, or the use rope mentioned in the initial description of hands, and the like.

    Finally, the phrasing on focused shield seems really roundabout, all the talk of bullrushes instead of just saying "it requires a dc 22+cha strength check to pass through" or something. Also it doesn't specify the initial size of the field, I had to figure it out based on the "extra hands" portion of the ability.

  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Why does this class have wild talent, and why do hands require a psionic focus? I don't remember if there are any abilities that use up your psionic focus, so right now it seems as though if anyone touches you with a power point draining spell, this class goes from having a lot of abilities to only having full bab and some martial weapon proficiencies until you rest for 8 hours. This seems like a rather notable weakness that is then totally errased at high levels.
    psionic feats, and fitting the existent psionic rules.


    The class seems like it has a lot of powerful and versatile abilities, more than seems reasonable.
    Over 20 levels, and it dosn't have a normal subsystem.

    Being able to move whoever you want wherever you want with mental strength, even with will negate, is questionable. I'd either break that into bullrush and a "willing targets only" inclusion with the fly power, or just make it... willing targets only again, yeah. You can give your allies a boost up but you cant just move the bad guys into every trap or make them provoke aoos from all your friends at level 1.
    bull rush is BAB+str, a rarer defense then will save. Also, it is giving up an action to deal no direct damage, with a save.

    Theres this bit thats been bothering me between force fling and telekinetic wield- When you first get telekinetic wield, you can't use it to wield unusually sized weapons. That seems perfectly reasonable to me, it does mean that I cant just use telekinesis to make up weaponsize wise for being a 7 inch spryte, but that's a good thing. Force fling though... makes no such allowances. There is nothing stopping me from, if I have proficiency with greatswords, to just buy a colossal greatsword and forcefling it everywhere for full C-greatsword damage. I'd only need a few levels before I could do that, and at that stage I could buy 30 of them and never run out. Sure I'd need a way to transport them, but that doesn't sound like a very good counterprice.
    8d6, costs 50*2*2*2*2=800gp a pop, weighs in at 8*16=128lb... not to mention is to ****ing huge to carry around. 6th level before they can use it,
    were they are just outdamaging spells, by 2d6. Though I do agree it is odd... I agree it should be limited to the size of the TK.

    Force fling in particular seems like it could be a great way to make terrain a useful part of combat again, but then isn't. Making the damage just 1d6 per 25 pounds kills the potential versatility and interesting tactics of this ability. What I mean by this is like... I've seen in many books and premade adventure's where it talks about barroom brawls and suggests shoving people into fireplaces or throwing hot bowls of soup or molten silver from the forge at people, and no-one ever used these rules because its pointless so long as you just have a sword. Being able to telekineticaly use improvised weapons, just whatever you have around, would be really cool. You could try to pick materials based on damage, like pointy improvised weapons deal damage as though they were twice the weight of just bludgeoning ones. On one hand this causes the ability to petter out damagewise a bit sooner (I also cut the "if there's more range left" damage on the ability in my experiment) but by high levels you can full attack with dozens of swords at once so I did not mourn the loss of 40d6 boulders at level 20. When I experimented with this system I also lowered the fling weight to 10 or 15 pounds per level instead of 25, to limit me to medium 2h weapons and 1d6-1d8 improvised weapons to fling, so as not to adjust the damage too much.
    As the DM, if you want to deal with the TK tearing up the scenery, just tell him you are willing to add circumstance modifiers... or throw more repeating traps onto the field. The issue is this is meant to be generals applicable, and those aren't standard to most games.

    Lockdown seems absolutely insane. It doesn't seem like it fits the class flavor, and it seems too powerful on what seems like a pretty overpowered class already at that stage.
    13th level, the players are gods among men. Have been for a long while. this is a 5ft radius sphere, or slightly larger if you invest in it. It acts like an upgraded entangle, and targets fortitude saves. Also, it alows some movment on even a failed save. Also freedom of movement renders it irrelevant.

    Disrupting throw and singularity seem similearly questionable
    eh, it serves them right for provoking. Casters have defensive spell casting, and most anything else can deal with it.


    the 200ft always active blindsight at level 20 is a bit too powerful
    20th level is a straw man, and irrelevant.

    lockdown is the big problem to me. Every part of it seems questionable. I'd rather see if interesting things could be done moving objects around then silly bits of compressing air.
    They can do many intresting things.

    I think some of these arguements are of a similar vein: there are many fun things you could be doing with telekinesis (like flinging random terrain, or maybe the fancy crafting with the metacreativity acf), but the flinging thing is made boring and instead we focus on more questionable class abilities. Switch it around a bit with less ridiculous magic style versatility like the lockdown and singularity stuff, and more "what can we do with combat everywhere at once" like seeing if more things can be done with far trick, or more details on class abilities with hands like slight of hand, or the use rope mentioned in the initial description of hands, and the like.
    Those are high level abilities, they are meant to make the TK feel like a demigod at this point. Far trick and the multiple things as one action allow the TK to be everywere at once, so why add to it? Skill checks can be made at a range, by using mental strength. What more do you want?

    Finally, the phrasing on focused shield seems really roundabout, all the talk of bullrushes instead of just saying "it requires a dc 22+cha strength check to pass through" or something. Also it doesn't specify the initial size of the field, I had to figure it out based on the "extra hands" portion of the ability.
    But bull rush is what it is specificly, several feats and abilaties of other charicters/monsters would apply and it makes it more uniform with the rest of the system.
    Avatar by Szilard, thank you sir for the fine work!

    my home brew. you should PEACH them...
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  7. - Top - End - #457
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I agree with what Bob6 said. But if you would like even more discussion about the points, I would love to discuss this class with you! :) Btw, thanks for having decent formatting, it makes responding so much easier. I'll address each of your points individually.


    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Hey, I've been really enjoying this class! I've got some uncertainties about it though, weird little problems I've been coming across. Some are probably subject to taste, like "mental strength is too strong and should be lower numbers" but others I think are a bit more important...
    Thanks for taking the time to write and help with the class!

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Why does this class have wild talent, and why do hands require a psionic focus? I don't remember if there are any abilities that use up your psionic focus, so right now it seems as though if anyone touches you with a power point draining spell, this class goes from having a lot of abilities to only having full bab and some martial weapon proficiencies until you rest for 8 hours. This seems like a rather notable weakness that is then totally errased at high levels.
    I had not known about that rule with focus. That does bring up an interesting point. Our intent was to create the instance where you need to be psionicly focused to use the abilities and must chose if your abilities or other things the use the focus are important at the time. With the notion that these powers can be stripped from you casually, that is a bit disconcerting. Perhaps we should give the class a "phantom" power point? Basic function would be that is is unusable for anything besides attaining focus and cannot be drained. Fluff it that his first Hand created was actually a quasi physical manifestation of his first power point and that is why it can't be taken away/used? I agree that being able to strip the class down to powerless was not supposed to be that easy.

    Thoughts people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    The class seems like it has a lot of powerful and versatile abilities, more than seems reasonable. Being able to move whoever you want wherever you want with mental strength, even with will negate, is questionable. I'd either break that into bullrush and a "willing targets only" inclusion with the fly power, or just make it... willing targets only again, yeah. You can give your allies a boost up but you cant just move the bad guys into every trap or make them provoke aoos from all your friends at level 1.
    As for the versatility, do keep in mind this class was built to be a standalone class. It has no other supplements to bolster itself so it must be able to stand on its own for all 20 levels and prevent itself from being dip friendly.

    Addressing moving people now. They are given a will save every round (Dc at this level=10+cha) or else they are moved around. This is the core theme of the TK. They don't get the talent to control their TK into a bullrush until later. Making it willing targets only sort of defeats the concept of being telekinetic. "I can move things, but only if they want me to! Fear me!" Remember, at level 1 you only have 100lbs/Hand that you can lift so typically you wont be able to lift many people and they can only be moved 10 ft. Or if you do move them, it will take a couple Hands and you can't really do much else. So that feels balanced to me. It does no damage, but gives you some control of the battlefield (which is ultimately what this class is designed to be, a battlefield controller). And sure you could boost your allies, but until you're higher levels it doesn't make much difference. You can't move them faster than your base speed, they can only move so fast depending on weight, and any distance you could move them they could get to easier with say a grappling hook at low levels.

    As for flight, it is self only unless you have the feat, and the feat even specifies willing targets so that seems like a non issue. Am I wrong on that regard?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Theres this bit thats been bothering me between force fling and telekinetic wield- When you first get telekinetic wield, you can't use it to wield unusually sized weapons. That seems perfectly reasonable to me, it does mean that I cant just use telekinesis to make up weaponsize wise for being a 7 inch spryte, but that's a good thing. Force fling though... makes no such allowances. There is nothing stopping me from, if I have proficiency with greatswords, to just buy a colossal greatsword and forcefling it everywhere for full C-greatsword damage. I'd only need a few levels before I could do that, and at that stage I could buy 30 of them and never run out. Sure I'd need a way to transport them, but that doesn't sound like a very good counterprice.
    TK Fighting is supposed to compensate for what you may lack in physical prowess and also look badass as you hold back an army (at high levels) with a wall of swords. As for Fling...The sword you mentioned would be approximately 128 lbs based on srd weight for small-large. At level 1 that would take 5 Hands to fling. Level 2 would be 4. 3=3 4=2 5=1. I do see the potential for abuse starting at level 2, but more likely 3. So let's look at what a rogue can do at level 3. Take two weapon fighting, grab a couple short swords and he is dealing 6d6. The Wizard is dealing ability score damage. Hmm. I don't personally see any issue with them being able to fling it, but if you guys feel there should be a limitation based on something I disagree with it being your size category. TK is supposed to be strength of mind, not body. Let's try this added to FFling:

    You may Fling weapons larger than medium, however it requires an additional 2 Hands per size category larger than medium in order to do so.

    That removes the issue as it would then require a level 1 character to have 13 Hands to fling it. And at level 5 it would 9, anything beyond that is basically moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Force fling in particular seems like it could be a great way to make terrain a useful part of combat again, but then isn't. Making the damage just 1d6 per 25 pounds kills the potential versatility and interesting tactics of this ability. What I mean by this is like... I've seen in many books and premade adventure's where it talks about barroom brawls and suggests shoving people into fireplaces or throwing hot bowls of soup or molten silver from the forge at people, and no-one ever used these rules because its pointless so long as you just have a sword. Being able to telekineticaly use improvised weapons, just whatever you have around, would be really cool. You could try to pick materials based on damage, like pointy improvised weapons deal damage as though they were twice the weight of just bludgeoning ones. On one hand this causes the ability to petter out damagewise a bit sooner (I also cut the "if there's more range left" damage on the ability in my experiment) but by high levels you can full attack with dozens of swords at once so I did not mourn the loss of 40d6 boulders at level 20. When I experimented with this system I also lowered the fling weight to 10 or 15 pounds per level instead of 25, to limit me to medium 2h weapons and 1d6-1d8 improvised weapons to fling, so as not to adjust the damage too much.
    A lot of improvised weapons are decided by weight. In complete warrior page 159 it gives a table of improvised weapons and how much damage they deal. Looking at the end of that table this class is far more generous with using the terrain.

    Also, it just occurred to me based on something you just said. You were not looking at the current build of the class when you made your interpretations. I apologize for the obvious confusion, so let me explain. The version you read (first post I'm guessing) used to be kept up to date. But as life got busier and busier for Bob6 we (me and Veklim, the main contributors/editors/posters) created a post that we could edit to keep the class current while Bob6 was away. The version in progress, and most up to date is on page 5 post 146 The feats are on the next post. His original post is at least 7 months behind the current version. which by the way Bob, you should really fix.

    I will continue to go through your comments though and address them as of the current version....And now that I look at whay you say next and I look at the main post, anId see that I was wrong and it is impossible for you to have been only reading that one as lockdown isn't there...So the point you made here regarding
    (I also cut the "if there's more range left" damage on the ability in my experiment)
    makes no sense. That line is only present in the first post, and in fact not even the same ability in the current one. You will have to be more clear in your next response so I know what to address.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Lockdown seems absolutely insane. It doesn't seem like it fits the class flavor, and it seems too powerful on what seems like a pretty overpowered class already at that stage. Disrupting throw and singularity seem similearly questionable, and the 200ft always active blindsight at level 20 is a bit too powerful, but lockdown is the big problem to me. Every part of it seems questionable. I'd rather see if interesting things could be done moving objects around then silly bits of compressing air.
    The fluff may not be written accurately enough on Lockdown, but the TK concept behind it is that you are applying TK pressure to an entire area. Due to this pressure people and weapons have a hard time moving through it. Because of its semi solid nature it blocks line of effect.

    I disagree that the class is overpowered. They have immense versatility sure, but their damage output is sorely lacking. They have options to bolster it, but doing those remove their ability to be as versatile. Just remember, this class was designed to manipulate the battlefield and it does that. Look at the class from the perspective of that field of view. If you truly feel it is overpowered please provide specific concerns so we may address them. This class is aimed at high tier 3.

    Disrupting throw has it's own limitations of only being able to use Far trick, FFling, or FBurst and requires an AoO and an immediate action until 20. That is far less scary than someone who has focused taking AoOs or characters with reach.

    Singularity is at level 19. This is after wizrads have had 9th level spells for 2 levels. It has a fixed area. It's their last full ability before Epic. It is fine as it is at the level it is. If it were any lower I would agree with you.

    As for Touchsight at all times out to 200, a Psion could do the same thing. Although it would be to a smaller distance without feats and stuff, but its a minor investment for them so I see no problem with that.

    As to your last sentence, if you have suggestions for doing something, please share. If you can think of something we will find a way to make it work as either an ACF, feat, etc. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    I think some of these arguements are of a similar vein: there are many fun things you could be doing with telekinesis (like flinging random terrain, or maybe the fancy crafting with the metacreativity acf), but the flinging thing is made boring and instead we focus on more questionable class abilities. Switch it around a bit with less ridiculous magic style versatility like the lockdown and singularity stuff, and more "what can we do with combat everywhere at once" like seeing if more things can be done with far trick, or more details on class abilities with hands like slight of hand, or the use rope mentioned in the initial description of hands, and the like.
    What details do you believe we are missing in those regards? As far as I could think, I covered just about every option of area combat with getting redundant, I included all the basic combat maneuvers (the same ones used in the spell Telekinesis), and you can use any of your skills at range with your hands; what more details do you need about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Finally, the phrasing on focused shield seems really roundabout, all the talk of bullrushes instead of just saying "it requires a dc 22+cha strength check to pass through" or something. Also it doesn't specify the initial size of the field, I had to figure it out based on the "extra hands" portion of the ability.
    It isn't a set dc to pass through. It is an opposed check where the strength of your TK is repelling stuff from passing it. It did specify the size of the barrier, but it didn't in the first post. Although when I went to check you had a point it was latter on and not the first thing you find out about it. So I included it again at the beginning of the entry.


    I do hope that you respond with any and all of your continued thoughts on the class! :D
    Last edited by DerTollUdo; 2013-04-15 at 08:59 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #458
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I had not known about that rule with focus. That does bring up an interesting point. Our intent was to create the instance where you need to be psionicly focused to use the abilities and must chose if your abilities or other things the use the focus are important at the time. With the notion that these powers can be stripped from you casually, that is a bit disconcerting. Perhaps we should give the class a "phantom" power point? Basic function would be that is is unusable for anything besides attaining focus and cannot be drained. Fluff it that his first Hand created was actually a quasi physical manifestation of his first power point and that is why it can't be taken away/used? I agree that being able to strip the class down to powerless was not supposed to be that easy.
    That does kinda open the class up for a potentially powerful 1 level dip, maybe. I'm just not sure if relying on psionic focus mechanics really helps the class in any way; it could be cut entirely without much change based on my probably limited understanding. I'm not a major psionics user though, so prehaps there is some major importance to this but if I spend my feats on other things it seems like the whole thing becomes a moot point.

    Though I do admit, it makes the psionic display component fit in nicely. At first I thought that was strange but then I decided I liked it and now I need to figure out how much I can get away with within the bounds of psionic display.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    As for the versatility, do keep in mind this class was built to be a standalone class. It has no other supplements to bolster itself so it must be able to stand on its own for all 20 levels and prevent itself from being dip friendly.
    Many homebrew classes do that, but most of the original classes make the assumption that you'll be playing as a part of a team. This seems kinda like it's trying to do a bit too much at once, and then doing it a bit too well.


    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Addressing moving people now. They are given a will save every round (Dc at this level=10+cha) or else they are moved around. This is the core theme of the TK. They don't get the talent to control their TK into a bullrush until later. Making it willing targets only sort of defeats the concept of being telekinetic. "I can move things, but only if they want me to! Fear me!" Remember, at level 1 you only have 100lbs/Hand that you can lift so typically you wont be able to lift many people and they can only be moved 10 ft. Or if you do move them, it will take a couple Hands and you can't really do much else. So that feels balanced to me. It does no damage, but gives you some control of the battlefield (which is ultimately what this class is designed to be, a battlefield controller). And sure you could boost your allies, but until you're higher levels it doesn't make much difference. You can't move them faster than your base speed, they can only move so fast depending on weight, and any distance you could move them they could get to easier with say a grappling hook at low levels.

    As for flight, it is self only unless you have the feat, and the feat even specifies willing targets so that seems like a non issue. Am I wrong on that regard?
    I just don't see why I would want to use bull rush when I could theoretically move people around much more effeciently using that. Being able to do it at first level too seems a bit much, ease into your battlefeild control; start with the flinging then start knuckling down into moving things.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    TK Fighting is supposed to compensate for what you may lack in physical prowess and also look badass as you hold back an army (at high levels) with a wall of swords. As for Fling...The sword you mentioned would be approximately 128 lbs based on srd weight for small-large. At level 1 that would take 5 Hands to fling. Level 2 would be 4. 3=3 4=2 5=1. I do see the potential for abuse starting at level 2, but more likely 3. So let's look at what a rogue can do at level 3. Take two weapon fighting, grab a couple short swords and he is dealing 6d6. The Wizard is dealing ability score damage. Hmm. I don't personally see any issue with them being able to fling it, but if you guys feel there should be a limitation based on something I disagree with it being your size category. TK is supposed to be strength of mind, not body. Let's try this added to FFling:

    You may Fling weapons larger than medium, however it requires an additional 2 Hands per size category larger than medium in order to do so.

    That removes the issue as it would then require a level 1 character to have 13 Hands to fling it. And at level 5 it would 9, anything beyond that is basically moot.
    Okay, maybe not large greatswords; but the feature did make me start asking my more obsessive friends to start calculating the weapon with the greatest weight to damage ratio for use in flinging. (he told me tiny shrukens so perhaps I should have been more clear when asking him, oh well.)

    That addition seems like it could work though, yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    A lot of improvised weapons are decided by weight. In complete warrior page 159 it gives a table of improvised weapons and how much damage they deal. Looking at the end of that table this class is far more generous with using the terrain.
    Yeah I've been using that table too. The current implimentation is much more powerful at higher levels and I worried about that for a few hours as well when I was doing my thinking about how I would do this class, before I realized how many weapons I could wield at the level 16 mark. If fling is burning hands, then high level telekinetic fighting is delayed blast fireball. Fling doesn't need to scale all the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Also, it just occurred to me based on something you just said. You were not looking at the current build of the class when you made your interpretations. I apologize for the obvious confusion, so let me explain. The version you read (first post I'm guessing) used to be kept up to date. But as life got busier and busier for Bob6 we (me and Veklim, the main contributors/editors/posters) created a post that we could edit to keep the class current while Bob6 was away. The version in progress, and most up to date is on page 5 post 146 The feats are on the next post. His original post is at least 7 months behind the current version. which by the way Bob, you should really fix.

    I will continue to go through your comments though and address them as of the current version....And now that I look at whay you say next and I look at the main post, anId see that I was wrong and it is impossible for you to have been only reading that one as lockdown isn't there...So the point you made here regarding makes no sense. That line is only present in the first post, and in fact not even the same ability in the current one. You will have to be more clear in your next response so I know what to address.
    Yeah sorry I was looking at the first post version for a long time before realizing there was an update, some of my info might have gotten crossed as a result. Sorry about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I disagree that the class is overpowered. They have immense versatility sure, but their damage output is sorely lacking. They have options to bolster it, but doing those remove their ability to be as versatile. Just remember, this class was designed to manipulate the battlefield and it does that. Look at the class from the perspective of that field of view. If you truly feel it is overpowered please provide specific concerns so we may address them. This class is aimed at high tier 3.
    Yeah I guess I'll give ya that. I think most of my freaking out about overpowered might have been carryover from the original version's 1d4/class level touch attack x many hands. I'm not a fan of some of the abilities but I guess that's much more a "I can deal with that" problem then a bringing it to you.

    Incidently, I think that my problem with lockdown isn't that its a bad ability, its that I've seen so many homebrew classes just throwing in features that stops interdimension travel or stop freedom of movement or stops whatever that I've trained myself to whenever I see those abilities I get grumpy about it. I think its that those abilities should be something you need to be prepared for, a sorcerer is investing a lot if he uses one of his spells known to take dimensional anchor, a wizard has to plan his spells prepared carefully and so cant use them willy nilly, but this is dimensional anchor that can theoretically be used frivolously. It uses up a lot of hands, yes, but then can be undone. There should be some kind of more valuable expenditure then just being the right level, a feat or something to gain access to it maybe? Something where, when you start fighting a guy with some nonsense teleport as an immediate action or a demon you need to capture before it teleports away or something, you can think "Oh I'm so glad I took that feat so I can use this ability here!" or "Oh we're so doomed because I didn't go to get that ability!" instead of "Well this problem is easily solved" which is what I'm getting now. A feature like dim anchor needs to cost ya something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Disrupting throw has it's own limitations of only being able to use Far trick, FFling, or FBurst and requires an AoO and an immediate action until 20. That is far less scary than someone who has focused taking AoOs or characters with reach.
    I think I wasn't thinking when I posted my complaint about disrupting throw: it needs to someway make other people aware that you can do this thing. Aoo'ng from afar in the form of all these things: fine. Aooing a spellcaster into loosing his spell because he had no possible way of knowing he was provoking: only acceptable if you're invisible.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Singularity is at level 19. This is after wizrads have had 9th level spells for 2 levels. It has a fixed area. It's their last full ability before Epic. It is fine as it is at the level it is. If it were any lower I would agree with you.
    It looked kinda useless to me, the class was starting to seem like it had a lot of irrelevant class abilities stapled on. Maybe I should take another look, I might have no idea what I'm talking about. Just by that stage I was getting weary of many of the class abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    As to your last sentence, if you have suggestions for doing something, please share. If you can think of something we will find a way to make it work as either an ACF, feat, etc. :)

    What details do you believe we are missing in those regards? As far as I could think, I covered just about every option of area combat with getting redundant, I included all the basic combat maneuvers (the same ones used in the spell Telekinesis), and you can use any of your skills at range with your hands; what more details do you need about that?
    I have no idea, I just know that many of the later level abilties don't feel like they're clicking for me. I'll have to meditate on the question, in a dimly lit room with some action figures and a stack of weird 3rd party books and I'll let you know if I come up with anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    It isn't a set dc to pass through. It is an opposed check where the strength of your TK is repelling stuff from passing it. It did specify the size of the barrier, but it didn't in the first post. Although when I went to check you had a point it was latter on and not the first thing you find out about it. So I included it again at the beginning of the entry.
    I think it was the size thing that put me into a state of "the wording of this ability is absurd". When we need to give the giant wall of telekinesis a size so we know its resistance to bullrushing, it seems as though we're going about this ability a bit wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    I do hope that you respond with any and all of your continued thoughts on the class! :D
    Okay so, in the time I spent looking at this class and thinking about it, I think I came up with the skeletal frame of a feat idea. It doesn't really do much of what I was thinking about in the "sit down and come up with interesting fitting class abilities" area though. I mostly just kept going through telekinetic fighting I remember seeing in something or rather. Plus it helps mitigate weaknesses to swarms.

    Telekinetic barrage
    Prerequisite: force fling (and thats about it, really. if you have force fling you probably have any other prerequisites.)
    Instead of flinging one large object as a projectile using force fling, you can hurl many small pieces, like a pile of glass shards or the hot coals from a fire or even a spray of coins. This deals similear damage to normal force fling, but aims at a 5ft square within normal range, with a reflex save (usual dc) for half. Like with normal force fling lowering your attack rolls for multiple shots in a round, each group of objects you fling lowers the dc by 2. This ability counts as force fling for the purposes of penalties caused by using multiple abilities at once, and for force fling penalties to attack rolls. (possibly simplify this into attack roll vs reflex save, to cut down on the complexity of the description, or would that increase it?)

    Only problem I've noticed so far: I have no idea how to integrate this with my version, using improvised weapon stats for the damage.

    Edit: I've been trying to figure out, for telekinetic fighting it says... "Only weapons wielded within 5' of your self qualify as being wielded by you for purposes of feats or class abilities that effect them." Does that ever get mitigated with the greater versions of telekinetic fighting? I didn't notice any but I wasn't sure if this was an oversight or not. I feel like a lot of fun could be had, mixing your abilities. Instead of dipping into this class, you'd focus on this class and dip some other things. Or just take weapon focus to hit better with your army of swords, I don't know. Also, maybe limit the number of hands you can wield a single weapon with by your level (like the limit to hands you can use on a single target with force burst), I got too much damage bonus with a greatsword at level 2, wielding it with 6 hands and 18 cha since there wasn't much else to do with the hands.

    Possibly worth noting that having many hands doesn't actually help you much at low levels. I thought I was clever getting away with as many as I did, but then the attack roll penalty for flinging lots at once just made it not worth it almost.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2013-04-16 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Dimentional ancor=3rd level spell... so no, not an investment at level 16. Dimensional lock is more comparable, but a 20ft radius is like 4 hands.... a cost.

    Again psionic feats.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    Dimentional ancor=3rd level spell... so no, not an investment at level 16. Dimensional lock is more comparable, but a 20ft radius is like 4 hands.... a cost.

    Again psionic feats.
    Yes, a cost that can be implimented at any time. Theres a difference between an activating cost and a preperation cost...

    You say psionic feats, but you haven't given a reason for why psionic feats are being included. It seems a pointless addition to have to build your entire class to use. Basically it means that you will never take feats that involve expending your psionic focus because you loose all your abilities till you get it back. It seems like it removes usefulness from this class then adding anything.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Not really, a spell slot 5 levels bellow current isn't relevant.

    Speed of thought, and it ties the class to psionics.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    Speed of thought, and it ties the class to psionics.
    So you made this class with specific intent to take the speed of thought feat? Or is it just circumstance? If its that important to you, why not just take wild talent with your normal feats, or get a psionic race to start? Considering the multitude of sources of magical abilities, what does this class get from being tied to psionics? Aside from mentioning the display (which seems like its mostly a flavor addition, plus possibly a means of identification), I'm not sure that this has any need to be tied to psionics.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    There are others like it(up the walls for one), and it ties into the existant system better.

    Psionics, as it fits the internal power source. Devine/binding is from a greater source and arcane/shadow casting /incarnum/truespeach is from manipulating existant energies. Psionics is wholely internal, so is this telecenisis.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    There are others like it(up the walls for one), and it ties into the existant system better.

    Psionics, as it fits the internal power source. Devine/binding is from a greater source and arcane/shadow casting /incarnum/truespeach is from manipulating existant energies. Psionics is wholely internal, so is this telecenisis.
    Yes, there are many feats that use psionic focus, I can find them easilly enough, that isn't what this is about.

    Why do you need to tie it to an existing system at all? You don't actually use any power points, and the only thing the psionic focus does in relation to the class is check to see wether or not you can use your powers. Yes, it uses an internal power source. You know what else is wholy internal power sources? Dragons. Are they psionic? Only the gem dragons. There are lots of self-powered power sources, saying you have to have wild talent just because the class is self powered just adds unnecessary bulk to the class. Plus, by tying us to psionics instead of saying "here are your supernatural abilities, make of them what you will" you're lowering our ability to make up whatever story we want for the classes power.

    The only tie to psionics this class has is requiring a focus to have the telehands. There are very few situations here you would not want telehands, so basically you should be psionically focused all the time. There is no reason to ever not be. I could just make a single dc15 concentration check at level 1 and then never have to do it again for the rest of the campaign, unless I get power point drained.
    All you're giving us is a prerequisite for fancy feats for free on a class that already gives a whole lot of abilities at 1st level. And before you say you don't get much: I can juggle a ladders with my mind at will at first level, which is far more impressive then any other class I know.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    As to the issue of having a nigh infinite power source, this isn't something new. A warlock has infinite power to use its magics so it isn't that big that this class has it's own battery.

    I do agree that the focus thing is an issue that I could see simply doing away with. As for keeping the class psionics, I much prefer that to an undescribed source of power. My DM hates ill defined things so I would rather not bring that issue upon myself lol. It also fits the existing concept that psions can have pscyokinesis and this is just an extreme manifestation of those powers.

    At level 16 Lockdown getting to stop teleportation is not that powerful. It stops a spell that has been there for like 7 levels already. It also doesn't stop Freedom of Movement.

    As to your claims of it functioning on its own, it wouldn't. Sure it could hassle people and mess with their movements, but it couldn't really kill them with any kind of easy.

    As for something you mentioned on fling, you can only fling one item at a time. As for weapons and Hand investment, I will be honest and say I am playtesting an ACF that does not get that feature so haven't had a chance to tweak it perfectly. I had assumed I included an investment limit though as that could be abusable at low levels. There should be one. It will be edited in.

    As for disruptive throw, I disagree that they should know. Not everything tells you that you provoke btw. Have you ever actually read all that provokes? It is a long list lol. Trip masters don't tell you they can so why should this ability? And if a wizard isn't casting defensively always he has failed at being a wizard :P

    Your feat is interesting, I will work with it some more to get it fit.

    As for that fighting thing you mentioned, the reach/threatening is fixed in an ability right after the TK Fighting. As for having feats and stuff apply to it I am iffy. That could be breaking...there are some crazy combos you can do with feats. Like shocktrooper, and battle jumping builds.

    If I missed anything let me know I am running a game while typing this :)

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    As to the issue of having a nigh infinite power source, this isn't something new. A warlock has infinite power to use its magics so it isn't that big that this class has it's own battery.

    I do agree that the focus thing is an issue that I could see simply doing away with. As for keeping the class psionics, I much prefer that to an undescribed source of power. My DM hates ill defined things so I would rather not bring that issue upon myself lol. It also fits the existing concept that psions can have pscyokinesis and this is just an extreme manifestation of those powers.
    I guess that works. I mostly wanted it as an excuse to make the telekinesis powered by magic or the spirits of my dead tribe or lucid dreaming or whatever nonsense, but that's just background work and doesnt matter so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    At level 16 Lockdown getting to stop teleportation is not that powerful. It stops a spell that has been there for like 7 levels already. It also doesn't stop Freedom of Movement.
    Didn't mean to imply that it did, its just the sort of thing that I've oft attributed to the same sort of thing that throws in stop teleportation. Though yeah, I'm starting to see that dimensional anchor isnt all that big a deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    As for something you mentioned on fling, you can only fling one item at a time. As for weapons and Hand investment, I will be honest and say I am playtesting an ACF that does not get that feature so haven't had a chance to tweak it perfectly. I had assumed I included an investment limit though as that could be abusable at low levels. There should be one. It will be edited in.
    Oh, I hadn't noticed that fling had changed since the first version to make it so you cant fling lots of things at once. Maybe it could be changed so if you full action the ability, you can throw one object per attack you would normally get? Just like, make it an ordinary sort of attack action only with telekinetic flinging.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    As for disruptive throw, I disagree that they should know. Not everything tells you that you provoke btw. Have you ever actually read all that provokes? It is a long list lol. Trip masters don't tell you they can so why should this ability? And if a wizard isn't casting defensively always he has failed at being a wizard :P
    What I meant by that is usually you can identify the reach of a creature by looking at it, if you aren't acting inside that area you can usually assume yourself to be at least reletively safe. You might not be, there are always weird suprises, abilities to suddenly increase reach or move or whatever, just a think that seems weird to not know over that much area.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    Your feat is interesting, I will work with it some more to get it fit.
    Thanks! Glad I could help a bit. The only thing remotely interesting I could think in my "what can I do with terrain abilities" since then is entangling people with ropelike objects, which is a bit pedestrian.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerTollUdo View Post
    As for that fighting thing you mentioned, the reach/threatening is fixed in an ability right after the TK Fighting. As for having feats and stuff apply to it I am iffy. That could be breaking...there are some crazy combos you can do with feats. Like shocktrooper, and battle jumping builds.
    Don't think I had much worry about the reach part, I saw that explination already. I hadn't thought of things like shocktrooper- though those examples are both charge based, I hadn't thought you could use charge with these. Others do make sense, like being able to power attack, or weapon focus. The main thing I'm worried about is people trying to do manuevers through telekinetically weilded weapons, that could end up problematic.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Gah! So much to read....Wall of Text spell has defeated my Will save

    So.....after reading *a good proportion* of the above discussion, I figured I'd stick in my head for a moment!

    Estradus, many of your points revolve around the amazing things this class can do, at what you repeatedly allude to being 'little to no expense'. Have you actually looked at how many Hands these abilities require as opposed to how many you will have? You mention how Lockdown is a bit OP, and yet you need to invest a considerable number of Hands (the more the better for this application honestly) for MULTIPLE ROUNDS, because the moment you take them away, the effect ends doesn't it? A spell is cast, and the next round the caster can continue throwing top level effects about with impunity....the TK cannot.

    The reason for Lockdown, Singularity, Ultimate Touchsight and the like is simple enough. The TK is the ultimate battlefield controller, he can appear almost omniscient at times, and seems to affect things everywhere at once, but he is STILL LIMITED by the number of Hands he has at any one time.

    The damage/capacity issue for mass/size of objects, weapons (improvised or otherwise) and people have been hashed, rehashed and entirely re-written several times thoughout the course of the TK's construction, and the system we have now, although a little obtuse in areas (I freely admit it), has about the best possible damage/level ratios and averages we could muster, and before you mention how much damage a level 16 TK can do to a dozen targets in one round, let me remind you a wizard could do a twin fireball in the same time for 2 area effects dealing much damage, whereas the TK has to hit every target individually with comparable effects.

    With regards to the Wild Talent debate, I feel the feat should be there anyhow, and I feel the class should keep it's psionic heritage, but we should drop the need for a Psionic Focus at all. Instead, we should replace that text with something explaining how the TK must be conscious to use or maintain their abilities unless noted otherwise. The psionic fluff is there because bobthe6th, DerTollUdo and myself all believe it fits the profile perfectly, and should be considered in many ways the 'Ultimate Specialist' since the vast majority of this class was initially born of nothing but the spell Telekinesis. The Soulknife is a good example of WotC precedent with regards to a psionic class which requires focus to function and use it's weaponry but uses no powers. Think of the TK as a faaaaar better model but cut from the same block.

    I also urge you to re-examine the ACFs, they offer a very diverse set of builds for a TK, and many of them don't even gain half the abilities you speak of as being 'too much', yet arguably some of them are MORE powerful in their given field.

    [EDIT]
    Regarding the weapons and feats issue, this has been intentionally limited to avoid game-breaking shenanigans, and should not really be messed with, that is another salient point which took GREAT debate and tweaking to get right!
    [/EDIT]

    I'm sure there's loads of stuff I missed, much illness + much work has left me with little time for this atm, but I shall endeavour to rectify any actual mistakes you may have flagged up, and happily debate other aspects too. We are not unknown to change our minds on something, if a case is put well enough, and most of this class has been built upon the consensus of 3 ppl (bob, the creator & DerTollUdo & myself, the editors/co-developers) so please, debate away, we value all input on this project. If you ever find yourself with enough time, try reading through the entire thread...it's been an epic project, and we've only just started talking epic now
    Last edited by Veklim; 2013-04-17 at 09:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Yeah most of my arguements I've gone all wishywashy on; I'm not good at balancing class features at higher levels. I guess I'll just defer to your judgement on the lockdown, singularity, etc.

    The difference between soulknife and telekinetecist (aside from soulknife not being very good) is that soulknife has both class features that require a psionic focus and class features that use up your psionic focus. (I think, its been forever since I looked at the class.) If you're going to keep wild talent then in addition to requiring a psionic focus to have hands, you need to include abilities that expend your psionic focus as a cost for some kind of more powerful telekinetic attack. Without any sort of give and take to the psionic focus, it just becomes a static blob in the middle of my character sheet. Either you need to actually use the styles of the psionic focus to its full extent (which to make it so the ability isnt a detriment, would require some really weird abilities as dertroll said) or it should just be gotten rid of.

    You mentioned the inclusion of wild talent is a part of this classes heritage from an older version, and thats kind of what it feels like- a legacy of some clever idea that was surplanted by another clever idea and is now just a vestigial inclusion, only kept for sentimental purposes. Its been around for so long that you can't bear to part with it, even if it doesn't do anything.

    I took a look at the acfs, and I looked through it trying to find some kind of "telekinetic fighter" version of the class, before realizing the default had full bab and was supposed to be the telekinetic fighter. The others feel like a step away from what I was hoping from this class.

    *edit*
    Still think that force fling doesn't need to fit the average damage profile as your levels go up, you get other ways to fight. Its just a telekinetikery weapon for you to use at low levels before you gain access to the cool stuff.

    Also, wizards will run out of spell slots eventually, the TK can keep going forever.
    *end edit*

    Theres 16 pages of this forum. I'm not sure if I could survive reading the entire thread. I do understand what you're saying about most of the abilities having been rewritten over and over again to the point where you don't even want to look at them any more. I think I'll just leave you to it then; explore these issues on my own and see what I can make happen.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2013-04-17 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Theres 16 pages of this forum. I'm not sure if I could survive reading the entire thread. I do understand what you're saying about most of the abilities having been rewritten over and over again to the point where you don't even want to look at them any more. I think I'll just leave you to it then; explore these issues on my own and see what I can make happen.
    I didn't mean it like that! Just saying there's a lot of careful balancing and maths done on the majority of this already, and although it seems a lot on the surface, the fact that none of these abilities really benefit from other feats or classes means they MUST be self-contained with both scope and scaling.

    We've basically had so much back and forth on the abilities that we need quotes from the text itself to be sure we know what you're referring to! I'm not saying read the whole thread, I have already and it's a hell of a lot of reading! All I'm saying is most of these posts (a good 75% I reckon) are just bob, Der and myself hashing things out...I guess it takes a little trust, but we HAVE run all the numbers, and surprisingly the TK is a little under-whelming damage wise, but slightly better than average for defence and battlefield tricks (bullrushing, etc).

    The only checking I encourage you to do is looking at say a level 10 TK build, and figure out exactly how much you can actually do with the Hands you have, I reckon you'll be surprised how quickly you run out of Hands!

    The Wild Talent thing is a debate in itself, but I'm actually in agreement with you about removing the need for psionic focus from the class, maybe even removing the Wild Talent feat if it comes to that... We already did a revamp recently where we decided to remove the need for focus expenditure with some abilities so I guess it's in for a penny, in for a pound!
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    The difference between soulknife and telekinetecist (aside from soulknife not being very good) is that soulknife has both class features that require a psionic focus and class features that use up your psionic focus. (I think, its been forever since I looked at the class.) If you're going to keep wild talent then in addition to requiring a psionic focus to have hands, you need to include abilities that expend your psionic focus as a cost for some kind of more powerful telekinetic attack. Without any sort of give and take to the psionic focus, it just becomes a static blob in the middle of my character sheet. Either you need to actually use the styles of the psionic focus to its full extent (which to make it so the ability isnt a detriment, would require some really weird abilities as dertroll said) or it should just be gotten rid of.
    soulknife never mentions psionic focus... I just did a control F of the SRD page. None of the abilities require it, nor expend it.

    Also, wizards will run out of spell slots eventually, the TK can keep going forever.
    At higher levels were a TK has tons of hands and abilities? No, they don't. They have the spells to burn.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I do wish you could be more conversational then angry about my comments, bob... Being so aggressive makes me stop caring when I make counterpoints. As is, this just makes me wonder what the point of the soulknife is altogether then.

    Fairly basic feat idea: telekinesis on the run. Use standard action telekinetic abilities partway through a move action, basically spring attack or shot on the run or whatever for telekinesis. Its a basic feat, but can't overlook the basics.

  22. - Top - End - #472
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    I do wish you could be more conversational then angry about my comments, bob... Being so aggressive makes me stop caring when I make counterpoints. As is, this just makes me wonder what the point of the soulknife is altogether then.
    There really isn't any, other then wanting to be a jedi... and here is a better class for that. So yes, I suggest either gesalting it with something, or cutting it.

    I am doing many things, and having a conversation is not one I have time for.
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    I do wish you could be more conversational then angry about my comments, bob...
    Agreed. I've been astounded you've been so patient so far.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    There really isn't any, other then wanting to be a jedi... and here is a better class for that. So yes, I suggest either gesalting it with something, or cutting it.

    I am doing many things, and having a conversation is not one I have time for.
    Its all right, I can understand. I've probably been a bit too text-wall happy myself. I'm sorry for calling you out on it; it was a bit rude of me.

    Actually, if you want to play a jedi, the 2000/2002 starwars rpg is actually written entirely in something kinda like 3.0. All the classes except the jedi are hopelessly underpowered by 3.0 standards, almost like npc classes in strength, but the jedi itself is quite usable in a normal campaign, if you're willing to give yourself to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vadskye View Post
    Agreed. I've been astounded you've been so patient so far.
    Giving into the anger just makes matters worse, I prefer keeping a level head.

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Oh yay, more talking! In the defense of Bob, he never was very good at articulating, hence why me and Vek joined in originally as editors lol, but I assure you he probably means no offense.

    As to your points, high level balance is a very thin ledge to walk. Too little and the ability becomes wasteful in the action economy, too much and it dominates it. I am currently playing a very, very high powered game as this class. While not that impressive, it has given me a very good chance to see where this class shines and where it falls flat. It's damage is only good/adequate if you get hit by a large enough number of enemies to rack up total damage because against individual targets you are just passable. But where you shine is when it comes time to manipulate the battlefield. I can honestly say that I have used shields more than lockdown because of the prevalencey of Freedom of Movement. I wish it was more useful, even where it can dim anchor areas, but it is mostly blocked fairly easily and that is great.

    Honestly, the whole focus thing can be removed and the class wouldn't even notice. When abilities expended it, I found myself simply not using those abilities at all as I couldn't afford to not have access to my class. Wild talent fits fluff wise, and as per the rules is the only way to qualify for psionic feats since this class does not provide any psi-like abilities.

    Rules quote: bold added for emphasis.
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    Psionic feats are available only to characters and creatures with the ability to manifest powers. (In other words, they either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)


    So with that in mind, I wouldn't want to remove that from the class as that then removes the classes ability to qualify for Psi feats despite being a psionic class.

    Yes the original class is the TK warrior with some battlefield control available, because no one want to just be a fighter...no matter how many swords you wield lol. The ACF's are different takes on various forms of TK. If you are going the route of TK Warrior, I would highly reccomend the Unarmed TK ACF, or at least take a look at and give your opinion as I made it and never got to test it :). Oh and Vek, there already is a line in the TK Hands ability that states you must be conscious.

    As for Fling, I can't quite tell if you are saying it is fine where it is or not. Its damage isn't that high, but it isn't so small as to become irrelevant either.

    As for the wizard thing, the closest it comes is to having effects of a similar power level is with singularity...2 levels after they can wish away their problems. Sure the TK battery is self recharging, but its scope of power (i.e. its versatility) is smaller than that of the wizard.

    Regarding that second feat you posted, I fail to see the need for it. Could you give me an example where you would need the ability to move before and after an ability? Because as soon as you are out of range your abilities stop too.

    I do encourage you to actually semi stat this class at various levels and see what you can do with it each round and then let us know if you found any glaring issues, or praise. We like praise too :P.

    Also, hi Vadskye. I haven't seen you posting here before I don't think? Do you have any opinions on the class?

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Esper knight is also a rather good jedi... if you feel like dealing with incarnum. It is also a bit of a read. (says the man with a class taking up two posts, with two co writers and a fluff piece for every abilaty.)
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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Quote Originally Posted by bobthe6th View Post
    Esper knight is also a rather good jedi... if you feel like dealing with incarnum. It is also a bit of a read. (says the man with a class taking up two posts, with two co writers and a fluff piece for every abilaty.)
    Not to mention 16 pages of discussion! Lol

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    I guess I just have some trouble seeing it as a psionic class. If need be anyone can just take the wild talent feat if they want to be psionic I guess is how I fell about it.

    I'd rather use telekinesis to wield objects against creatures then just directly telekinesising people, which is about where I think the "what I expected the class to be" and the "what the class actually is" differences start from, and why I was/am displeased with most of the class abilities, which I guess is the source of most complaints. Just the standard "what I expected isn't what I got, lets rant about that" sorta thing. Consequentially, unarmed telekineticist doesn't help my issues, though.

    I ended up taking the basic ability of fling and rewrote it for my use, I'm sure there are plenty of issues with what I did and you don't have to use it, but here's the main changes:
    Max weight was changed to 10 pounds per level
    Damage was just switched to improvised damage rules
    Add cha to the damage
    Can make full attack with it as a full round action if you have extra attacks from haste or base attack bonus
    This has several upsides but also downsides. I'm sure it destroys the carefully crafted damage curve. The damage is a bit higher at low levels, getting around 1d8+cha at 1 if you can hurl a heavy, pointy thing at someone. The damage increase decelerates as you level up, but this seems acceptable with the other combat abilities you get, and the focus more on more of support abilities; also the use of extra attacks for damage. The damage is more complicated to calculate, but can also be more fun to use with the layers of picking choice materials to fling. There;s probably a dozen problems with this, but I'm the only one who has to suffer from it for now.

    As for the telekinesis on the run feat, you would indeed be unable to utilize most abilities effectively with moving out of range immediately. However, it would let you use fling or force blast similarly to shot on the run... On the other hand, being able to do some of the force tricks might be a bit questionable, flyby bullrushing and the like. Like I said, basic in a kind of pointless way, not unlike shot on the run.

    I'm not super good at stat-testing at varied levels, mostly because I put a lot of weird work into my character sheets; on account of compulsively using 3rd party sources and only writing in gestalt. I usually steer clear of homebrew though, I'm not sure why. Probably too many people to check what's been made for breaks; its like a shape with all the edges rounded off into a ball of comprimise and acceptance, while some of the books I've got are just all wrong.

    As for praise: I love the basic framework of fling. (The details seem in need of tweaking, but I wouldn't have put so much work into doing my own thing with it if I didn't think it was any good to start with). When I first saw telekinetic fighting I thought the whole thing would be how just greater turned out and was impressed at how actually balanced the result was and have been enjoying the looks of that. Far trick looks like a lot of fun and I look foreward to having all sorts of fun with that, and while focused shield doesn't fit my initial desire of flinging objects around, I think I could be happy with throwing walls of telekinetery everywhere.

    On the topic of telekinetic fighting and some of the feats mentioned... Is it possible to make the weapons charge? Do they get charge benefits if you charge? I just have some trouble seeing how shock trooper or battle leap could even work if you were allowed to use feats; I mostly wanted to work for slashing flurry to get even more attacks at 16th level. (this probably isn;t a good arguement for my side, is it?)

    Incidentally, if its relevant, on the topic of making characters, I'm currently about to use a character with this class in a campaign pretty soon (age of worms campaign if it matters), but due to reasons described above, this might not be anything even remotely usable for damage assessment.
    Right now I'm a telekinetecist/feat rogue 1, vampire as a ecl 0 player race rendered by the book "after sunset: vampires" found via the grand ogl wiki (linked here because I'm not sure if this odd source of books is as well known, but most people don't like 3rd party sources so is probably why). I went with vampire because there is a feat in another book (horde players guide, from the warcraft rpg also written in 3.5) that allows undead to use cha for all things they used to use con for, aside from hit points. Originally only useful for undead barbarians though. This is mostly because I love skill points too much, and between high cha and con for necessary class abilities, wisdom for kinda necessary, dex for ac, and int for my precious skill points, I just had too many ability scores to rely on. Unfortunately I can't tell you how I'm doing so far because the campaign is delayed due to finals week being right around the corner and my dm need's to study. Hurrah! I wasted an entire paragraph to tell noone anything useful!

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    Well, looking at the general power sources of classes a list that comes to mind is:
    Divine-seems like an odd thing to be granted by divinty.
    Arcane-arcane tried to master the concept of TK, they got a lackluster spell and an ok PrC (Master of the Unseen Hand).
    Psioncs-supposed to be the power of the mind over the universe, which is the pure concept of TK.
    Races-i could stretch at seeing a particular race where TK has developed, but then this would be an inherently limited racial class.
    Incarnum-I don't really see TK being powered by the souls of those living, dead, and yet unborn.
    Vestiges-I could see TK being granted, but couldn't see how it could be balanced to grant a stable and useable form of TK other than the Arcane spell.

    And that's about as far as my brain wants to delve right now into power sources.

    Well, from an attempted objective view, what do you imagine doing with TK that we haven't covered? And unless you have some awesome idea I would love to hear waiting, the main things that come to mind for using TK on objects vs people comes down to: damage them with items, move items around, and use combat maneuvers with items. All but that last one is capable within this class far more streamlined than previously existing mechanics. And if that really were where all the class could do I would have a hard time even saying it would be tier 4. Sure it has something nifty it can do in combat, then it can sort of be a nice utility spell, but outside of that the class would have nothing going for it.

    Your fix is basically: You get an enhanced Far Hand that lets you use any improvised weapon in a fashion that resembles a weapon and part of the path from TK Fighting without any of the TK Fighting restrictions. Specifically the level 6 ability available at level 1. And your damage is laughable, such that by the time you could do anything useful/cool like lift a wagon and throw it at people the damage it deals was a waste of your effort. It basically just says you have weak TK when trying to launch things, but if you want to just pick them up you are much stronger.

    At this point you are bringing the ability out of line with the class to a degree that is ludicrous when compared with power levels of even your fellow characters. And the effect you are trying to create can already be completed via existing rules. Simply use the falling objects rules and drop item on people.

    I would actually say in this instance this is less of a compromise for a completed class. Most of the time it was rewording or rebalancing (there was a point you could deal a few thousand points of damage as a standard action) until we all found the wording that said "Yes! That's what I was trying to say!"

    Thanks for the praise! As for shields, trust me, once you start using them you will wish you had more hands to make them even better.

    On the topic of TK weapons and feats, the reason for not allowing it is to avoid ever having to make those random rules decisions for every corner case and can the weapons do this? can they do that? scenarios. Let's just avoid all forms of making things even more complicated :). And no, what you wanted to do with feats is part of the reason why not allowing it is a good thing, I had no idea what you were referencing and didn't want to look it up to let you know if that would even work. You are already blanketing a field with "soldiers" who occupy people, do you really think more power is balancing? Lol

    I do look forward to hearing about your playtest. Do keep us informed about how things are going as you level and as you get more acquainted with your abilities!

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    Default Re: Telekineticist (3.5 D&D, PEACH)<-really, you should.

    On power sources: for my character I described above (which I cut the wild talent on) the telekinesis is powered by either by spirits of dead ancestors, which would worked into the story by the gravesight feat from heroes of horror, or just by having the blood of powerful creatures in her vein's like how sorcerers get their magic; the later being how I would probably suggest as a power source.

    Like I said some number of posts back, the abilities all work for the teir you're working on. I'm just jaded because I usually play in the teir 3 battlefeilds of the "really impressive melee combat of some sort" variety. I've only played a few spellcasters, and either I make one just kinda optimized, or I make one so I can just break the game as hard as I can figure out how, like casting shadow spells which deal 300% damage if you disbeleive them, or necromancering up an army of skeletons in the area of 10k hd around level 15, each getting enough bonuses for a mindless 1hd skeleton to take on cr5 challenges; or the persistadin thing where I ran around with 30 in all my ability scores until someone hit me with dispel magic. I don't like to aknowledge the power capability of spellcasters, that's why my suggestions are so far off course. I think I've got a handle on how much power the abilities have now, I've been looking at it long enough for it to make sense.

    The main thing I was going for with my version of force fling was trying to bring it into a feature to run similearly to telekinetic fighting, only one uses real weapons and martial skill, while the other is based around strategically flinging boulders around. Two sides of the same coin. Might as well knock back the parts of it that wouldnt turn up until telekinetic fighting from lv 6 to when you get that as well, maybe include some range penalties.

    The slashing flurry thing was me proving for my own sake why feats = bad. Though I could do it as long as the weapons were within 5 feet of me, just run around meleeing everyone with hundreds of attacks per round.

    Dropping things on people is the only way to use the "lift object" force power as a weapon as the previously mentioned jedi. It's a depressing way to do combat. I just want to fling things and for the damage to be reasonable. Yes at higher levels throwing a wagon doesn't do much damage, but I'd rather just throw many wagons in that case, or make it so I can lift heavier objects through scaling the weight/hand/level values, like at level 1 its 10/hand/level but goes up to 25 at level 6. That sounds complicated and stupid though, you don't even have to acknowledge it if you don't want to. I've basically gone into "this class is pretty much fine" mode and I'm just responding to conversation points and letting my brain empty itself on a keyboard because I'm lonely.

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